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Calls Show Pre-Blackout Utility Confusion
AP ^ | 9/3/03 | JOSEF HEBERT

Posted on 09/03/2003 4:10:50 PM PDT by Pro-Bush

Calls Show Pre-Blackout Utility Confusion

WASHINGTON - During the hour before the Aug. 14 blackout, engineers in the control center of an Ohio utility struggled to figure out why transmission lines were failing and complained that a computer failure was making it difficult to determine what was going on, transcripts of telephone communications released Wednesday show.

At one point, an engineer at the Midwest grid managing organization asked engineers at the Ohio utility, FirstEnergy Corp., to explain why they had not responded to a line outage reported sometime earlier and asked that they find out what was going on.

"We have no clue. Our computer is giving us fits, too," replied a FirstEnergy technician identified as Jerry Snickey. "We don't even know the status of some of the stuff (power fluctuations) around us."

A short time later, a technician at the Midwest Independent Transmission System Operators, the group that monitors the Midwest power grid, expressed frustration with FirstEnergy's failure to diagnose the problems erupting in their power system.

"I called you guys like 10 minutes ago, and I thought you were figuring out what was gong on there," the MISO technician, identified as Don Hunter, complained, according to the transcripts.

"Well, we're trying to," replied Snickey. "Our computer is not happy. It's not cooperating either."


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Ohio
KEYWORDS: blackout; firstenergy
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To: meyer
You may be right about that overcurrent causing a trip. Typically a field overheat is only an alarm unless it is a nuke plant. Let me know what else you find out, just for curiosities sake.
21 posted on 09/04/2003 7:50:08 AM PDT by Fellow Traveler
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To: .cnI redruM
and some little unix (or worse linux box) would be more likely to have a never-to-be-understood crash.
22 posted on 09/04/2003 8:38:27 AM PDT by epluribus_2
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To: winodog
I know enough to be dangerous rather than reliable, so I would prefer that someone else help you. I do know that when reinstalling an operating system it is standard to back up everything you can prior to the reinstall. You might try booting from the Windows CD before you reinstall and see if that will allow you to install your firewall. Again, someone else smarter than I would be of more help to you.
23 posted on 09/04/2003 9:04:24 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
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To: meyer
It's probably just a coincidence that First Energy got bitch-slapped by a Federal Judge just a few days prior. The judge ruled that FE had to install "best available" pollution control devices on all their older coal-burning power plants.

That had to seriously distract the FE management.

24 posted on 09/04/2003 9:06:51 AM PDT by snopercod (Give us Bread and Roses...)
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To: Fellow Traveler
Wouldn't high hydrogen temperature be an indication of generator field heating as well?
25 posted on 09/04/2003 9:09:10 AM PDT by snopercod (Give us Bread and Roses...)
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.
26 posted on 09/04/2003 9:12:15 AM PDT by Mo1 (http://www.favewavs.com/wavs/cartoons/spdemocrats.wav)
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To: snopercod
It's probably just a coincidence that First Energy got bitch-slapped by a Federal Judge just a few days prior. The judge ruled that FE had to install "best available" pollution control devices on all their older coal-burning power plants.

What's interesting about that case is that a similar suit in a different federal jurisdiction brought about the opposite ruling. The rule is basically a unilateral change brought about by Clinton's EPA anyways. They essentially took a vague rule and "reinterpreted" it so that actions that were taken by utilities in the past (and approved by the EPA) were deemed illegal, ex-post facto.

Anyway, while the ruling did probably distract upper management, the system dispatchers probably weren't too affected by it. The long term effects of the ruling will probably make the grid even less reliable however, as more of those older plants get retired rather than upgraded to meet the new standards. The older plants tend to be closer to the actual consumers, while the cheap to build (and expensive to operate) gas turbines that will replace them will be located in some remote area where a major gas line crosses an existing power line. Look for more strain on the grid as a result.

27 posted on 09/04/2003 9:16:42 AM PDT by meyer
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To: Fellow Traveler; meyer
Damn. I think we missed the hearings (unless they have an afternoon session).

The hearings before Billy Tauzin's Energy and Commerce committee were being webcast this morning. The link is on [this page].

28 posted on 09/04/2003 9:19:05 AM PDT by snopercod (he not busy being born is busy dying...)
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To: snopercod
Damn. I think we missed the hearings (unless they have an afternoon session).

I would have liked to have heard that as well, though I am a little nervious whenever a bunch of politicians get together and try to legislate new laws - especially laws of physics. :)

29 posted on 09/04/2003 9:23:33 AM PDT by meyer
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To: snopercod
Hydrogen temp really doesn't tell you what is going on in either the Field or Stator. The most usefule hydrogen temps are at the Hydrogen cooler inlet and outlets. They can tell you if you have a cooler plugged or more likely valved out. The stator temps are usually picked up with RTD's between the bars at various points in the unit. On water cooled generators they typically use thermocouples mounted at each individual hose coupling right before the water discharge header. They can let you know if individual bars are getting hot. The field temp is normally monitored by measuring field resistance. Accurate testing of field resistance during maintenance outtages is essential to calibrating that measurement.

Hydrogen temp by itself can't tell you what part of the generator is heating up. Certainly it can tell you that a problem exists with the entire system. I might mention that Everything I described above is GE build practives. Other manufacturers may do it differently.

30 posted on 09/04/2003 9:31:33 AM PDT by Fellow Traveler
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To: Fellow Traveler
I used to know all that stuff. As an instrumentation startup engineer, I activated the instrumentation on the GE turbine at Cholla Unit 4 in Joseph City, AZ. I checked out the auxiliary packages and everything.

But that was twenty years ago...sigh.

31 posted on 09/04/2003 9:52:49 AM PDT by snopercod (he not busy being born is busy dying...)
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To: Fellow Traveler
Hydrogen temp by itself can't tell you what part of the generator is heating up. Certainly it can tell you that a problem exists with the entire system. I might mention that Everything I described above is GE build practives. Other manufacturers may do it differently.

I don't remember if Unit 5 at Eastlake was a GE or Westinghouse unit. Still, I suspect that operations ought to be similar. Incidentally, Unit 5 is the first major generator I ever saw, and the Eastlake plant is the first power plant I ever visited in my travels as a relay tech. Its a pretty impressive machine, as are all large generators.

32 posted on 09/04/2003 10:04:26 AM PDT by meyer
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To: snopercod
If you worked out in that corner of the world did you ever run across a man named JR Robinson, or Jim Fox. I knew both of them and they were working out there at that time.
33 posted on 09/04/2003 10:19:26 AM PDT by Fellow Traveler
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To: mewzilla
I flipped through their annual report and didn't find any connection with Canada. Seems to be an electrical utility serving Ohio, Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
34 posted on 09/04/2003 10:25:24 AM PDT by xp38
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To: meyer
I recall an early article that indicated that they didn't think a single 345,000 volt line tripping in the Cleveland area was significant. Having operated the grid in the Cleveland area prior to the FirstEnergy merger, I would disagree.

Given the kinds of NIMBY going on, I think you're probably right. Linn Draper (AEP's boss) was sounding off about the one categorization of the US grid as "third world". He noted that it isn't that, but it is being pushed close to its limits. This is due in large part to the morass of regulations, federal, state, and local, that must be navigated for any kind of project, be it a plant or transmission line. Mr. Draper cited the case of an AEP HV transmission line that was first planned and proposed 13 years ago, and just this year had its final sign-off by the regulators. Now they've got to finance and build the thing. When its finally carrying megawatts, it will be going on 20 years, just to get a single transmission line up.

Not the kind of system, in its present incarnation, that lends itself to quick fixes.

35 posted on 09/04/2003 10:31:32 AM PDT by chimera
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To: meyer
Incidentally, Unit 5 is the first major generator I ever saw, and the Eastlake plant is the first power plant I ever visited in my travels as a relay tech. Its a pretty impressive machine, as are all large generators.

Some of these things literally stagger the imagination to think of the kind of power coming out at the busbar. I remember being boggled when I saw the turbine and generator tear-down for maintenance at the Point Beach plant. They had the end of the generator opened where that isophase bus comes out. Talk about a BIG wire, it was a conductor about as big around as a factory chimney. Impressive, to say the least.

36 posted on 09/04/2003 10:35:03 AM PDT by chimera
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To: chimera
Given the kinds of NIMBY going on, I think you're probably right. Linn Draper (AEP's boss) was sounding off about the one categorization of the US grid as "third world". He noted that it isn't that, but it is being pushed close to its limits. This is due in large part to the morass of regulations, federal, state, and local, that must be navigated for any kind of project, be it a plant or transmission line. Mr. Draper cited the case of an AEP HV transmission line that was first planned and proposed 13 years ago, and just this year had its final sign-off by the regulators. Now they've got to finance and build the thing. When its finally carrying megawatts, it will be going on 20 years, just to get a single transmission line up.

Not the kind of system, in its present incarnation, that lends itself to quick fixes.

Absolutely - There was a transmission line that was to be built from the Perry Nuclear Plant down to Hanna substation just east of Akron, but the NIMBY's eventually shut the project down, claiming that the line wasn't needed. Ironically, that line would have stood a very good chance of prevented the blackout, had it been built. The loss of the first transmission line into Cleveland would likely have been absorbed by the system with one more major parallel path into the area.

NIMBYism doomed California, and it is a big factor in this blackout as well, even if it isn't found to be the trigger. Our infrastructure simply hasn't kept up with the population.

37 posted on 09/04/2003 11:00:54 AM PDT by meyer
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To: meyer
Ironically, that line would have stood a very good chance of prevented the blackout, had it been built. The loss of the first transmission line into Cleveland would likely have been absorbed by the system with one more major parallel path into the area.

And the sad (and maddening) thing about it is, none of the NIMBYs or wackos who opposed this project will be held accountable for their complicity in being responsible, in part, for this blackout occurring. The press certainly won't. Its unpalatable to the mainstream media to point out the downside of environmental extremisim because, after all, "their intentions are good".

BTW, a similar thing is happening with the Columbia investigation. Everyone knows that foam breaking off the external tank damaging the wing is what did it, but I have yet to see any mention anywhere (other than FR) of the fact that NASA switched to a non-freon foam for environmental reasons, and this substitute foam apparently has inferior adhesive properties. So environmental extremism may very well be the root cause. But the mainstream press won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. And who will end up paying the price, besides those who died? Managers within NASA, of course, many of whom had nothing to do with the decision to go with the alternate material.

But I digress. Still, the lack of accountability of environmentalist wackos in these kinds of things and the unwillingness of the press to hold their feet to the fire is just outrageous.

38 posted on 09/04/2003 11:39:04 AM PDT by chimera
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To: epluribus_2
I used to have unix inflicted on me, and believe it or not, I like Windows better. Yes, MS crashes like a trucker on quaaludes, but it's a lot easier to put into safe mode and repair then unix.
39 posted on 09/04/2003 12:04:57 PM PDT by .cnI redruM (More Americans 18-49 Watch The Cartoon Network than CNN!!!)
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To: mamelukesabre
The new system costs more, and replaced a system that was already in place and functioning and it is unlikely that any salvage value was gotten out of the old system...it was likely just thrown away. The new system is complicated, requires power, makes messes, frustrates the cusomers, and the line at the catsup dispenser now tends to be longer.

Translation: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

40 posted on 09/04/2003 12:16:06 PM PDT by Publius6961 (californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks.)
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