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Condi's Phony History
Slate ^ | 8/29/03 | Daniel Benjamin

Posted on 09/04/2003 8:50:03 PM PDT by Burkeman1

As American post-conflict combat deaths in Iraq overtook the wartime number, the administration counseled patience. "The war on terror is a test of our strength. It is a test of our perseverance, our patience, and our will," President Bush told an American Legion convention.

National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice embellished the message with what former White House speechwriters immediately recognize as a greatest-generation pander. "There is an understandable tendency to look back on America's experience in postwar Germany and see only the successes," she told the Veterans of Foreign Wars in San Antonio, Texas, on Aug. 25. "But as some of you here today surely remember, the road we traveled was very difficult. 1945 through 1947 was an especially challenging period. Germany was not immediately stable or prosperous. SS officers—called 'werewolves'—engaged in sabotage and attacked both coalition forces and those locals cooperating with them—much like today's Baathist and Fedayeen remnants."

Speaking to the same group on the same day, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld noted,

One group of those dead-enders was known as "werewolves." They and other Nazi regime remnants targeted Allied soldiers, and they targeted Germans who cooperated with the Allied forces. Mayors were assassinated including the American-appointed mayor of Aachen, the first major German city to be liberated. Children as young as 10 were used as snipers, radio broadcasts, and leaflets warned Germans not to collaborate with the Allies. They plotted sabotage of factories, power plants, rail lines. They blew up police stations and government buildings, and they destroyed stocks of art and antiques that were stored by the Berlin Museum. Does this sound familiar?

Well, no, it doesn't. The Rice-Rumsfeld depiction of the Allied occupation of Germany is a farrago of fiction and a few meager facts.

Werwolf tales have been a favorite of schlock novels, but the reality bore no resemblance to Iraq today. As Antony Beevor observes in The Fall of Berlin 1945, the Nazis began creating Werwolf as a resistance organization in September 1944. "In theory, the training programmes covered sabotage using tins of Heinz oxtail soup packed with plastic explosive and detonated with captured British time pencils," Beevor writes. "… Werwolf recruits were taught to kill sentries with a slip-knotted garrotte about a metre long or a Walther pistol with silencer. …"

In practice, Werwolf amounted to next to nothing. The mayor of Aachen was assassinated on March 25, 1945, on Himmler's orders. This was not a nice thing to do, but it happened before the May 7 Nazi surrender at Reims. It's hardly surprising that Berlin sought to undermine the American occupation before the war was over. And as the U.S. Army's official history, The U.S. Army in the Occupation of Germany 1944-1946, points out, the killing was "probably the Werwolf's most sensational achievement."

(Excerpt) Read more at slate.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: baghdadmuseum; benjamin; berzarin; bombing; bombings; charlottenburg; clingon; clingons; collectivereprisal; commandantofberlin; condi; condirice; danielbenjamin; dobbins; drfranzoppenhoff; fedeyeen; france; franzoppenhoff; french; generalberzarin; germany; guerrillas; heinrichhimmler; himmler; hitleryouth; insurgency; insurgents; iraq; jamesdobbins; looting; missionaccomplished; museumlooting; nazigermany; naziparty; nazis; neberzarin; nsc; occupation; oppenhoff; rand; rice; rummy; rumsfeld; sabotage; slutdotcom; snipers; soviets; ss; terrorism; time; vandalism; vfw; wallstreetjournal; werewolves; wsj
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The comparison of the occupation of Iraq to our occupation of Germany after WWII is almost as idiotic as Rummy comparing Iraq to America after our revolution.
1 posted on 09/04/2003 8:50:03 PM PDT by Burkeman1
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To: JohnGalt; billbears; BlackVeil; caltrop; mr.pink; u-89
Ping
2 posted on 09/04/2003 8:51:23 PM PDT by Burkeman1 ((If you see ten troubles comin down the road, Nine will run into the ditch before they reach you.))
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To: Burkeman1
Quite the contrary. The American occupation of its zone in Germany involved about the same number of troops, the same civilian population, the same level of attacks on Americans and "collaborators," the same number of industrial/economic sabotage attacks, and about the same number of years to sort the whole mess out.

Other than that, I agree with you that there's no parallel between the de-Nazification of Germany and the de-Ba'athification of Iraq. After all the Iraqis don't speak German. Is that your point?

Congressman Billybob

Latest column, "We Are Running for Congress -- Maybe," discussion thread on FR.

3 posted on 09/04/2003 8:57:28 PM PDT by Congressman Billybob (Everyone talks about Congress; time to act on it. www.ArmorforCongress.com)
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To: Congressman Billybob
There were zero to none combat deaths among the American troops who occupied Germany after WWII. Our troop presence there wasn't because we feared a reborn Germany but a Communist Russia. Please provide a list of casualties who died due to "guerilla attacks" in Germany after the formal close of battle? How many Americans died in the immediate months of our occupation due to Nazi die harder attacks?
4 posted on 09/04/2003 9:02:16 PM PDT by Burkeman1 ((If you see ten troubles comin down the road, Nine will run into the ditch before they reach you.))
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To: Burkeman1
Your insane if you think every German just dropped his arms after Hitler was gone. Get reeeal !
5 posted on 09/04/2003 9:04:48 PM PDT by John Lenin (Cowards die many times before their deaths, The valiant never taste of death but once.)
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To: Congressman Billybob
Since when are disruptors bothered by facts?

6 posted on 09/04/2003 9:05:16 PM PDT by John Valentine (In Seoul, and keeping one eye on the hills to the North...)
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To: Burkeman1
but it happened before the May 7 Nazi surrender at Reims.

Did I miss Saddam's formal surrender, or that of any Baa'th official acting for the regime? And of course Post WW-II Germany had no counterpart of the hordes of "foreign" Jihadies who have streamed into Iraq after the majority of the conventional combat action was over, not to mention large numbers of them already in the country at that point. They are our enemies as surely as Saddam and were before the liberation of the Iraqi people.

7 posted on 09/04/2003 9:12:15 PM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: Congressman Billybob
Other than that, I agree with you that there's no parallel between the de-Nazification of Germany and the de-Ba'athification of Iraq. After all the Iraqis don't speak German. Is that your point?

Beside the fact that the Iraqis didn't do anything deserving invasion and the Germans did? No, not a difference at all.

The Germans had just engaged in an all out war that very well if they had won, would have changed the face of Europe immediately and presented a direct and present threat to these United States. Putting aside the fact that the atmosphere that allowed the rise of Hitler was created by Wilson, to occupy Germany could be argued was in defense of our nation of states. What were the Iraqis going to do, a year from now, five years from now, even ten years from now? Throw bags of beans at us from thousands of miles away? This all war, all the time is getting old. And the PNAC's holy quest to 'spread democracy' is not outlined in the Constitution. It may be in Irving's version, but not any version I've ever read. And not in any version you have either

8 posted on 09/04/2003 9:12:17 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: Burkeman1
That's nice, but how many Nazis did we kill to get there, and how many Americans died?

Let me just put my cards on the table, how may soliders are we willing to lose in this conflict? 100, 300, 1000, Zero?

We are fighting for our lives. The Second World War killed millions. Does anyone seriously doubt that the Muslim terrorists we fight will settle for less? Does anyone seriously think they'll settle for millions?

The purpose of an Army is to kill people and break things, and, apologies to Rush, it is also to die for the rest of us. That is why those who fight get our ultimate respect. But stop with this quisling crap, we've got to continue to kill these people, and some of our people will die trying, or they will kill us.

THEY WILL, THEY HAVE, THEY LIVE TO DO IT.
9 posted on 09/04/2003 9:13:30 PM PDT by jocon307 (Boy, even I am surprised at myself!)
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To: John Valentine
Daniel Benjamin was a Germany correspondent for Time and the Wall Street Journal from 1990-1994 and served on the National Security Council staff from 1994-1999.
10 posted on 09/04/2003 9:13:48 PM PDT by auboy ("Give me liberty, or give me death" - Patrick Henry)
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To: Burkeman1
There were zero to none combat deaths among the American troops who occupied Germany after WWII. Our troop presence there wasn't because we feared a reborn Germany but a Communist Russia. Please provide a list of casualties who died due to "guerilla attacks" in Germany after the formal close of battle? How many Americans died in the immediate months of our occupation due to Nazi die harder attacks?


History TodayOct, 2000Minutemen of the Third Reich.(history of the Nazi Werewolf guerilla movement)
Author/s: Perry Biddiscombe

AS WORRIES INCREASE about neo-Nazi and skinhead violence in Germany, it is worth remembering that this type of terrorism is a nasty constant in the history of the German radical-right. A case in point is the Nazi Werewolf guerrilla movement founded by Heinrich Himmler in 1044, which fought the occupying forces of Britain, America and Russia until at least 1047.

The Werewolves were originally organised by the SS and the Hitler Youth as a diversionary operation on the fringes of the Third Reich, which were occupied by the Western Allies and the Soviets in the autumn of 1944. Some 5,000 -- 6,000 recruits were raised by the winter of 1944-45, but numbers rose considerably in the following spring when the Nazi Party and the Propaganda Ministry launched a popular call to arms, beseeching everybody in the occupied areas -- even women and children -- to launch themselves upon the enemy. In typical Nazi fashion, this expansion was not co-ordinated by the relevant bodies, which were instead involved in a bureaucratic war among themselves over control of the project. The result was that the movement functioned on two largely unrelated levels: the first as a real force of specially trained SS, Hitler Youth and Nazi Party guerrillas; the second as an outlet for casual violence by fanatics.

The Werewolves specialised in ambushes and sniping, and took the lives of many Allied and Soviet soldiers and officers -- perhaps even that of the first Soviet commandant of Berlin, General N.E. Berzarin, who was rumoured to have been waylaid in Charlottenburg during an incident in June 1945. Buildings housing Allied and Soviet staffs were favourite targets for Werewolf bombings; an explosion in the Bremen police headquarters, also in June 1945, killed five Americans and thirty-nine Germans. Techniques for harassing the occupiers were given widespread publicity through Werewolf leaflets and radio propaganda, and long after May 1945 the sabotage methods promoted by the Werewolves were still being used against the occupying powers.

Although the Werewolves originally limited themselves to guerrilla warfare with the invading armies, they soon began to undertake scorched-earth measures and vigilante actions against German `collaborators' or `defeatists'. They damaged Germany's economic infrastructure, already battered by Allied bombing and ground fighting, and tried to prevent anything of value from falling into enemy hands. Attempts to blow up factories, power plants or waterworks occasionally provoked melees between Werewolves and desperate German workers trying to save the physical basis of their employment, particularly in the Ruhr and Upper Silesia.

Several sprees of vandalism through stocks of art and antiques, stored by the Berlin Museum in a flak tower at Friedrichshain, caused millions of dollars worth of damage and cultural losses of inestimable value. In addition, vigilante attacks caused the deaths of a number of small-town mayors and, in late March 1945, a Werewolf paratroop squad assassinated the Lord Mayor of Aachen, Dr Franz Oppenhoff, probably the most prominent German statesman to have emerged in the occupied fringes over the winter of 1944-45. This spate of killings, part of a larger Nazi terror campaign that consumed the Third Reich after the failed anti-Hitler putsch of July 20th, 1944, can be interpreted as a psychological retreat back into opposition, even while Nazi leaders were still clinging to their last few months of power.

Although the Werewolves managed to make themselves a nuisance to small Allied and Soviet units, they failed to stop or delay the invasion and occupation of Germany, and did not succeed in rousing the population into widespread opposition to the new order. The SS and Hitler Youth organisations at the core of the Werewolf movement were poorly led, short of supplies and weapons, and crippled by infighting. Their mandate was a conservative one of tactical harassment, at least until the final days of the war, and even when they did begin to envision the possibility of an underground resistance that could survive the Third Reich's collapse, they had to contend with widespread civilian war-weariness and fear of enemy reprisals. In Western Germany, no one wanted to do anything that would diminish the pace of Anglo-American advance and possibly thereby allow the Red Army to push further westward.

Despite its failure, however, the Werewolf project had a huge impact, widening the psychological and spiritual gap between Germans and their occupiers. Werewolf killings and intimidation of `collaborators' scared almost everybody, giving German civilians a clear glimpse into the nihilistic heart of Nazism. It was difficult for people working under threat of such violence to devote themselves unreservedly to the initial tasks of reconstruction. Worse still, the Allies and Soviets reacted to the movement with extremely tough controls, curtailing the right of assembly of German civilians. Challenges of any sort were met by collective reprisals -- especially on the part of the Soviets and the French. In a few cases the occupiers even shot hostages and cleared out towns where instances of sabotage occurred. It was standard practice for the Soviets to destroy whole communities if they faced a single act of resistance. In the eastern fringes of the `Greater Reich', now annexed by the Poles and the Czechoslovaks, Werewolf harassment handed the new authorities an excuse to rush the deportations of millions of ethnic Germans to occupied Germany.

Such policies were understandable, but they created an unbridgeable gulf between the German people and the occupation forces who had pledged to impose essential reforms. It was hard, in such conditions, for the occupiers to encourage reform, and even harder to persuade the Germans that it was necessary.

By the time that this rough opposition to the occupation had started to soften, the Cold War was under way and reform became equally difficult to implement. As a result, both German states created in 1949 were not so dissimilar to their predecessor as might have been hoped, and changes in attitudes and institutions developed only slowly. Thanks partly to the Werewolves there was no German revolution in 1945, either imposed from above or generated from below.

You can either learn your history, or you can STFU, mister.


11 posted on 09/04/2003 9:15:00 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Burkeman1
If this is the best Daniel Benjamin of Slate.com can do in his efforts to slam our efforts in Iraq, I pitty his sorry arse.

All of the doom & gloomers who would rather gather in a circle and do their best to figure out why the Islamofacist hate us and what we should do to make them like us, should suit up and head to Iraq and show us how the occupation of Iraq should be handled, instead of carping on the sidelines like little flea infested ankle biters.

The point of the remarks by Condi and Rumsfeld is not to make a direct comparison, but to point out that ousting a brutal terrorist regime as well as laying the ground work for a future represenative form of government is not something that happens overnite or comes without a cost. Even a brain dead liberal should be able to grasp that reality.

Freedom isn't free and our freedom is under attack by Radical Islam. If we don't take this war to them, it will come to us.

12 posted on 09/04/2003 9:18:56 PM PDT by MJY1288 (The Enemies of America can Count on the Democrats for Aid and Comfort)
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To: Burkeman1
Thanks for posting a worthless article.
13 posted on 09/04/2003 9:20:53 PM PDT by mgstarr
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To: mgstarr; Burkeman1; billbears
Burkeman and billbears are Bush haters. You can count on their posts to have that as their agenda.
14 posted on 09/04/2003 9:22:57 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter. You'll save a life, and enrich your own!)
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To: Burkeman1
This will be an interesting thread for you:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/971959/posts

Specifically from that thread:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/971959/posts?q=1&&page=101#112

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/971959/posts?q=1&&page=1#2

I'd rather the terrorists gather in one place where they face well trained, well armed soldiers rather than take on civilians who are unarmed and not trained.

Additionally, in post war Germany, Hitler supporters were killing our soldiers in numbers that are hard to pin down, but it went on for years. Their favorite method was stringing wire across roadways and garrotting our soldiers. A recent History Channel program devoted an entire show to the matter.


2 posted on 08/28/2003 6:26 AM PDT by Peach (The Clintons have pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured or killed.)





15 posted on 09/04/2003 9:24:22 PM PDT by bootless (Never Forget)
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To: Pukin Dog
It is interesting history. I wonder about Japanese post surrender attacks on American Occupation forces.

One difference is that in Iraq, you have a lot of foreign hostile forces coming in from surrounding countries as well.
16 posted on 09/04/2003 9:25:32 PM PDT by TheDon (Tick, tock, tick, tock...the sound of the clock ticking down the time until Tom drops out.)
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To: billbears
Changing the subject does not protect your argument. The subject was whether the occupation of Iraq in 2003-2005 is similar to, or radically different from, the occupation of the American zone in Germany in 1944-46. Asserting that it is different because of the justification of the war that preceded it is off-point and irrelevant.

Also, I thought of another exact parallel between then and now. Hitler killed himself in May, 1945. But there was no ironclad proof of that until December, 1945. All those months, most Germans believed that Hitler was still alive and leading the resistance, and General Eisenhower was under a standing Order to "capture Hitler." Sounds sort of like the Saddam situation in Iraq, right now. You think?

As for the justification for the Iraq War, this President asked for and got a declaration of war from the Congress, as the Constitution requires. Feel free to claim that Congress was wrong -- John Kerry, who voted for the Resolution, is now claiming that it was wrong. But don't pretend that it never happened.

Cheers,

Congressman Billybob

Latest column, "We Are Running for Congress -- Maybe," discussion thread on FR.

17 posted on 09/04/2003 9:29:31 PM PDT by Congressman Billybob (Everyone talks about Congress; time to act on it. www.ArmorforCongress.com)
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To: Burkeman1
And you posted this piece of crap because...?
18 posted on 09/04/2003 9:32:22 PM PDT by Jean S
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To: Pukin Dog
Check, and...

MATE.

Thank you for posting this.
19 posted on 09/04/2003 9:34:41 PM PDT by Ronin (Qui tacet consentit!)
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To: MJY1288
>> Freedom isn't free and our freedom is under attack by Radical Islam. If we don't take this war to them, it will come to us. <<

A point that should be stressed more often!!! We are fighting the war against terrorism in Iraq. The alternative is to fight it in the streets of New York. The choice would appear to be a no brainer. Oops, that may explain the Bush hater's position.
20 posted on 09/04/2003 9:35:19 PM PDT by CMAC51
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To: Pukin Dog
Thanks for posting the facts to respond to a useless baseless attack on the administration. As usual, those calling the Bush administration folks liars turn out to be preaching falsehoods themselves. The acts of sabotage are strikingly similar, and the motiation is strikingly similar too ... Yet we see:

Despite its failure, however, the Werewolf project had a huge impact, widening the psychological and spiritual gap between Germans and their occupiers. Werewolf killings and intimidation of `collaborators' scared almost everybody, giving German civilians a clear glimpse into the nihilistic heart of Nazism. It was difficult for people working under threat of such violence to devote themselves unreservedly to the initial tasks of reconstruction. Worse still, the Allies and Soviets reacted to the movement with extremely tough controls, curtailing the right of assembly of German civilians. Challenges of any sort were met by collective reprisals -- especially on the part of the Soviets and the French. In a few cases the occupiers even shot hostages and cleared out towns where instances of sabotage occurred. It was standard practice for the Soviets to destroy whole communities if they faced a single act of resistance. In the eastern fringes of the `Greater Reich', now annexed by the Poles and the Czechoslovaks, Werewolf harassment handed the new authorities an excuse to rush the deportations of millions of ethnic Germans to occupied Germany.

Ah, clearly the situations in Iraq 2003 and Germany 1945 are TOTALLY different ... maybe we should be glad the Russians and French arent 'helping' us.

21 posted on 09/04/2003 9:37:31 PM PDT by WOSG (Lower Taxes means economic growth)
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To: Burkeman1
There were zero to none combat deaths among the American troops who occupied Germany after WWII. Please provide a list of casualties who died due to "guerilla attacks" in Germany after the formal close of battle?

That is a HIGHLY distorted view of the allied occupation of Germany in 1945. The Allies included the Soviet Union. How many ALLIED combat troops were attacked (include attacks on Russians in your numbers). Your list of casualties must include RUSSIAN casualties as they were an Allied occupying power in addition to the US, Britain, and France.

22 posted on 09/04/2003 9:39:12 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Burkeman1
How many Americans died in the immediate months of our occupation due to Nazi die harder attacks? One who really counted--George Patton. Yeah, I know they said it was an "accident".
23 posted on 09/04/2003 9:39:18 PM PDT by Palladin (Proud to be a FReeper!)
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To: Congressman Billybob
hey btw how was it 'proven' Hitler died anyway? How come it took so long to confirm?

As for saddam, I sure hope we find his a** and have the Iraqis try him and kill him properly for his many evil crimes against humanity. Having him die in a gunfight like his sons is too much dignity. Public hanging is more fitting.
24 posted on 09/04/2003 9:41:43 PM PDT by WOSG (Lower Taxes means economic growth)
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To: Burkeman1
Both Rice and Rumsfeld consistently used the term attacks on "allied troops" in the article. You switched it to "American troops" because you know there were significant attacks on Russian troops in the Berlin area after the declared end of the war. Everything they said was factually accurate.
25 posted on 09/04/2003 9:42:55 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Congressman Billybob
The subject was whether the occupation of Iraq in 2003-2005 is similar to, or radically different from, the occupation of the American zone in Germany in 1944-46.

In the Slate article, Rice and Rumsfeld do not limit themselves to attacks in the American zone. They specifically referred to the "allied troops" which included the Russian zone. There were significant attacks on Russian troops (allied troops) in the Russian zone after the formal end of the war.

26 posted on 09/04/2003 9:46:23 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Ronin
Some people would rather bitch than read.
27 posted on 09/04/2003 9:47:31 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: WOSG
Either falsehoods, or deliberate uniformed opinions out of fear of the facts.
28 posted on 09/04/2003 9:48:42 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog
Your post quotes an article that claims 5 Americans killed in a police station explosion, after Germany's surrender. As opposed to this, the thread's lead article goes on to state:

It's hard to understand exactly what Rumsfeld was saying, but if he meant that the Nazi resisters killed Americans after the surrender, this would be news. According to America's Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, a new study by former Ambassador James Dobbins, who had a lead role in the Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo reconstruction efforts, and a team of RAND Corporation researchers, the total number of post-conflict American combat casualties in Germany—and Japan, Haiti, and the two Balkan cases—was zero.

So we have a disagreement between two historians. Yours claims 5 American post-war deaths, and the lead article's author claims zero post-WWII deaths. A small but significant difference, but still well below the occupation deaths for Americans in Iraq.

29 posted on 09/04/2003 9:49:04 PM PDT by secretagent
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To: CMAC51
If we wait until the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction has spread to all corners of the globe with every Islamic terrorist studying the three step course in Bioterroism and the art of Germ Warfare, it will be too late to act. We have to act now, and the word "ACT" means to wage war against these dead enders where they live, breathe, eat and shit until the day comes when each and every one of them have joined the other dead enders in the ash heap of history.
30 posted on 09/04/2003 9:49:47 PM PDT by MJY1288 (The Enemies of America can Count on the Democrats for Aid and Comfort)
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To: FreedomCalls
You switched it to "American troops"

Good catch.

31 posted on 09/04/2003 9:49:56 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Congressman Billybob
For those who say there were very few combat deaths in post-war Germany, they are incorrect. A recent History Channel show talked with veterans who served there and they told of numerous killings of our soldiers by Hitler sympathizers. The last known death in Germany of one of our soldiers by a sympathizer to Hitler was 1949.

I've written the Library of Congress for an exact number but haven't received a reply yet. Based on the History Channel show I'd guess the number is several hundred, but that' s just a guess. It was obvious they were not talking about a dozen or so deaths, that's for sure.
32 posted on 09/04/2003 9:50:07 PM PDT by Peach (The Clintons have pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured or killed.)
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To: auboy
Daniel Benjamin was a Germany correspondent for Time and the Wall Street Journal from 1990-1994 and served on the National Security Council staff from 1994-1999.

And while at the NSC he became quite friendly with the artful use of words and the building of majestic tales. Too bad he doesn't realize that it was unique to the administration he served not to all administrations.

33 posted on 09/04/2003 9:50:57 PM PDT by Dolphy
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To: jocon307
We are fighting for our lives. The Second World War killed millions. Does anyone seriously doubt that the Muslim terrorists we fight will settle for less? Does anyone seriously think they'll settle for millions?

----------------------

Who said anything about Muslim terrorists? It's the religion of peace.

34 posted on 09/04/2003 9:53:00 PM PDT by RLK
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To: Pukin Dog
I have consistently tried to tell the doubters that US and allied soldiers were killed in what seem to be large numbers in post-war Germany.

The History Channel did a show on this very subject a few weeks ago and although they did not say how many soldiers died at the hands of Hitler sympathizers, it was obviously not just a few dozen. The last known death to a US or allied soldier in post war Germany at the hands of Hitler sympathizers was 1949.

I've written the Library of Congress but do not have an exact number to quiet the doubters.

Can we imagine what Europe would look like now if we'd listened to the critics and left? We would not have an ally in the region.
35 posted on 09/04/2003 9:54:43 PM PDT by Peach (The Clintons have pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured or killed.)
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To: secretagent
Actually, the History Channel talked to still living VETERANS who were stationed in post war Germany and they discussed how their fellow soldiers were killed by Hitler sympathizers.

I find myself believing actual survivors of that time period who were interviewed on camera with their name and former rank and whose account was substantiated historically and with other fellow soldiers, than some unknown "scholar".
36 posted on 09/04/2003 9:58:08 PM PDT by Peach (The Clintons have pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured or killed.)
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To: TheDon
One difference is that in Iraq, you have a lot of foreign hostile forces coming in from surrounding countries as well.

----------------------

Those are not foreign forces. The reality is we are not fighting Saddam Hussein, but most of the Mohammadan world.

37 posted on 09/04/2003 9:58:45 PM PDT by RLK
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To: secretagent
a new study by former Ambassador James Dobbins, who had a lead role in the Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo reconstruction efforts, and a team of RAND Corporation researchers, the total number of post-conflict American combat casualties in Germany—and Japan, Haiti, and the two Balkan cases—was zero.

I believe the London Bridge is for sale too. Got MasterCard? Consider the source, please.

AMBASSADOR JAMES F. DOBBINS

Ambassador Dobbins has headed the European Bureau of the State Department since May 26, 2000.  He has served as Deputy Assistant Secretary, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary and Acting Assistant Secretary for European and Canadian Affairs.  In Europe, he served as Ambassador to the European Community, Deputy Chief of Mission in Bonn, Political-Military Officer in London, and Political Officer in Paris.  Ambassador Dobbins has also acted as the Department of State’s senior manager for peace operations in Kosovo, Bosnia, Haiti and Somalia.  From 1999 until his current assignment, he served as Special Advisor to the President and Secretary of State for Kosovo and Dayton Implementation, with lead responsibility for management of the Balkan crisis throughout the Kosovo conflict.  Earlier, Ambassador Dobbins served as the Administration's coordinator for Haiti, overseeing the diplomatic and civil aspects of the intervention.  He filled a similar role in overseeing the disengagement of U.S. forces from Somalia.  From 1996 until 1999 he was Special Assistant to the PresidentCLINTON and Senior Director on the National Security Council Staff responsible for Latin America.  Earlier, he served with the U.S. Mission to the United Nations, the U.S. Mission to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the Department of State’s Policy Planning Staff, and with the U.S. Delegation to the Vietnam Peace Talks.  In addition to his official posts, he has held appointments as a Senior Fellow with the Rand Corporation, and occupied a similar position with the Council on Foreign Relations.  Prior to joining the Foreign Service, Ambassador Dobbins served three years as an officer in the United States Navy, including two tours of duty in the Vietnam theatre aboard the USS Bon Homme Richard (CVA 31).  He received a Bachelor’s degree from the Georgetown University School of Foreign Service. 

Oh yeah, I trust THAT dude. A clinton butt-boy, State Dept hack, who manages two tours in a three year career? Another ticket punching liar, if you ask me.

38 posted on 09/04/2003 9:59:39 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: RLK
We are fighting for our lives. The Second World War killed millions.

And we, and the Russians even more so, utterly destroyed the German soldiers on the battlefield. There were very few die-hard combatants left after it was all over. Those that were caught were disarmed. Contrast that with Iraq where most all of them just disappeared and went home (taking their weapons with them). Do you think it would have turned out any different if the Waffen SS soldiers were to have changed into civilian clothes and slipped away back into the Hartz Mountains while keeping their weapons?

39 posted on 09/04/2003 10:00:39 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Pukin Dog
Also, see #36 - actual soldiers who lost fellow soldiers in post war Germany were interviewed.

I'll believe our soldiers who were THERE any day over some "scholar".
40 posted on 09/04/2003 10:01:07 PM PDT by Peach (The Clintons have pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured or killed.)
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To: Dolphy
Wonder if he's still receiving "marching" orders from Hillary, or is just terminately brainwashed?
41 posted on 09/04/2003 10:01:56 PM PDT by auboy ("Give me liberty, or give me death" - Patrick Henry)
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To: Peach
It is too bad that there is so little documentation of these facts. I believe that this is information purposely hidden from the public. You can find bits and pieces on the internet, but it takes time. In the mean time, count on people to continue to lie about it.
42 posted on 09/04/2003 10:03:34 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: FreedomCalls
LOL! Have you read anything about what the Russians did in Germany? I highly doubt the attacks on Russian troops were motivated by any Nazi "underground".
43 posted on 09/04/2003 10:06:05 PM PDT by Burkeman1 ((If you see ten troubles comin down the road, Nine will run into the ditch before they reach you.))
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To: MJY1288
"If we don't take this war to them, it will come to us."

Actually, I believe it (war) already came to us......we're just trying to prevent more of it here, IMHO.....

44 posted on 09/04/2003 10:09:41 PM PDT by goodnesswins (gat enil rednu noitcurtsnoc)
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To: Burkeman1
Doubt is one thing, facts are another. Got any? Nope.
45 posted on 09/04/2003 10:09:50 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog
LOL- you actually compare that to what is happening in Iraq?
46 posted on 09/04/2003 10:09:58 PM PDT by Burkeman1 ((If you see ten troubles comin down the road, Nine will run into the ditch before they reach you.))
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To: Burkeman1
I made no comparison, I only blew your lie out of the water. Deal with it, or prove me wrong.
47 posted on 09/04/2003 10:10:53 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: auboy
terminately = terminally - Must have had Arnold on my mind.:-)
48 posted on 09/04/2003 10:11:47 PM PDT by auboy ("Give me liberty, or give me death" - Patrick Henry)
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To: Pukin Dog
Do you? Was an American soldier being killed a day, on average, in Germany in May, June, July, Aufust, September in Post war Germany? Were mortars being fired on our troops every day? Facts? Yeah right!
49 posted on 09/04/2003 10:11:57 PM PDT by Burkeman1 ((If you see ten troubles comin down the road, Nine will run into the ditch before they reach you.))
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To: Burkeman1
Dont change the subject from your assertion that no one was killed during the German occupation. I provided information to the contrary. You have nothing to prove what you said, so deal with it.
50 posted on 09/04/2003 10:13:56 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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