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Islamic World Renaissance(again a mighty intellectual, scientific,inevitably, military force)
LA Times ^ | 8/30/2003 | Unknown

Posted on 09/05/2003 6:31:41 AM PDT by Helms

Edited on 09/05/2003 3:50:16 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

Too many observers look at Iraq as if it were a boxing match. Invasion-one up for the West, well at least for the United States and Britain. Sabotage an oil pipeline-one down for the West. And so it will go on. Only one thing is clear: In the cold, searching light of history, each of these incidents that absorb us will not even rank as footnotes.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: christendom; clashofcivilizatio; clashofcivilizations; henripirenne; islam; thewest

1 posted on 09/05/2003 6:31:44 AM PDT by Helms
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To: Timesink; kattracks; Sabertooth; Behind Liberal Lines; .cnI redruM; SJackson; FormerLib
Ping
2 posted on 09/05/2003 6:35:12 AM PDT by Helms ("I Want My MTV" (More Televised Vulgarity))
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To: Helms
...written by Baghdad Bob.
3 posted on 09/05/2003 6:35:45 AM PDT by LurkedLongEnough (Think, Post, Repeat.)
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To: Helms
Again the leftist con game of the backwardness of "Europe."
by focusing on northern Europe they totaly disregard Byzantium - the seat of European knowledge of the day. The Hellenic input into the middle ages was a direct result of greek scholars being force out of the east by the rising Turks - not some sort of "transfer" from the Arab but rather a migration from the old eastern empire. It was Greek and Latin that they were translating, not Arabian.

Also, the apogee of "intellectual culture" in the Isalmic world came during the Ottoman period. Many of the the key groups in the Sultans' governments were eastern Europeans taken in childhood from Eastern Europe. Also, the few innovations from islam come mostly from the Farsi world with its rich mixture of pre-islamic cultures.

This myth of parity in intellectual and cultural contributions bewteen the West and Isalm is a myth of liberal elites in both worlds.

I cannot understand why no oone ever publically debunks this outright lie.
4 posted on 09/05/2003 6:50:51 AM PDT by CasearianDaoist
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To: Helms
"it was important to find points of contact between Christanity and Islamic convergence"

Islam found an important point of convergence when it attacked the Twin Towers.

quran(9:11) For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughtout the lands of allah and for a while some of the people trembled in despair, still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of allah and there was peace.(notice the verse)
5 posted on 09/05/2003 6:51:29 AM PDT by freeangel (freeangel)
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To: Helms
Muslims can be charming, affable, intelligent, and your best friend
in the end if you are a Jew or Christian

(& if you are stupid enough to allow it or
put yourself in the position for them to easily do it....)

It is their sacred duty ....to convert or kill you

-Hey nothin' personal..it's just business
6 posted on 09/05/2003 7:00:08 AM PDT by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: Helms
What a load of crap.
7 posted on 09/05/2003 7:02:33 AM PDT by rintense (I've had it with illegals and liberals. Get the hell out of my country.)
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To: Helms
Helms,

The original rise of Islam proved anomolous and was enabled, in part, by miscalculations on the part of Eastern Roman Emporer Justinian.

1) Justinian deployed Belisarius on a lost cause campaign that expended the vast majority of Constantinople's deployable resources. This grinding conflict on The Italian Peninsula that made The Vietnam War look well-managed.

2) Justinian made peace with Persia and pulled forces away from it's Eastern frontier and made almost no effort to protect it's trade outposts in North Africa.

3) The Mediterranian cultures of the 7th century were totally unprepared for the fanatical nature of the original Muselman movement after the Hygira.

So, in a nutshell, Justinian squandered an excellent military machine and failed to adequately defend his Eastern border and the nature of the opponent faced was unknown.

Also, while a lot of intelligent people did originally come from Muselman cultural backgrounds, a lot of the enlightenment that modern Islamic Cultures claim as their own contribution was taken from the Mediterranian Basin as a spoil of war in much the same way that The Roman Republic appropriated and then assimilated Greek art, literature and philosophy.

Henri Pirenne's historical masterpiece "Muhammad and Charlemagne" basically debunks the idea that Justinian was a great Byzantine Emporer and explains how The Muselman religious movement was able to get control of the wealthiest parts ot The Mediterranian Basin in about a century and a half.
8 posted on 09/05/2003 7:17:18 AM PDT by .cnI redruM (More Americans 18-49 Watch The Cartoon Network than CNN!!!)
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To: Helms; LurkedLongEnough; JohnHuang2; CasearianDaoist; SJackson; freeangel; dennisw; joesnuffy
Is the author's view of "Islamic World Renaissance" reality?

Islam can only rise and expand through military conquest. This is historical fact.

True, the philosophical and cultural differences between Islamic nations (The East) and Christian nations (The West) can be viewed as two separate civilizations in competition with each other.

Both profess a divine appointment, calling, mission, and spiritual reference points. Muslims point to the Koran while Christians point to the Bible. Both the Koran and the Bible point to God as the Author of their faith and the source of their strength, but that is where the similarities end.

Islam's code requires Jihad to perpetuate itself in "unbelieving" nations resistent to the teachings of Muhammed.

Christianity's code requires mercy, forgiveness, and a turning away from violence and hatred even towards those resistent to the teachings of Christ.

The act of proselyting a Muslim by a Christian in an Islamic nation is punishable by death. In fact, Christianity itself is outlawed in most Islamic nations (and ultimately punishable by death).

The act of proselyting a Christian by a Muslim in a Christian nation has no legal or physically harmful ramifications to the Muslim.

The Muslim in a Christian nation is free to proselyte whereas a Christian in a Muslim nation does so at the risk of death.

This struggle will continue until Islamic nations cease to expand Jihad into Western Christian nations. Or until their desire to do so is broken by military brute force.

Of course, this reality may not be universally accepted in either Islamic or Christian cultures.

For that matter, what is reality?

9 posted on 09/05/2003 7:19:10 AM PDT by Happy2BMe (LIBERTY has arrived in Iraq - Now we can concentrate on HOLLYWEED!)
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To: Helms
the likelihood of the Islamic world regaining its foothold in history and becoming again a mighty intellectual, scientific and, inevitably, military force.

Hopefully, if that happens, Charlton Heston’s spaceship from the past will crash-land there and he’ll straighten things out.

10 posted on 09/05/2003 7:21:28 AM PDT by dead (Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead!)
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To: Happy2BMe
It's funny when the Islamic empty heads rattle on about the glories of Islam. It's bizarro world.
11 posted on 09/05/2003 7:30:45 AM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: Helms
INTREP
12 posted on 09/05/2003 7:39:25 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Helms
Islamic World Renaissance/Becoming again a mighty intellectual, scientific,inevitably, military force

Again?
Again?

One out of three ain't bad. For the ignorant and the propagandists.

Islam is efficient only as a military force, if allowed to do so.
Everywhere it has spread its cultural filth it always appropriates, gathers and uses the local existing knowledge, uses it, keeps it secret and immediately arrests all intellectual inquiry.

It doesn't take a mental giant to see why they are all still stuck in the 8th century (except in weapons research).

Continue treating them as normal homo sapiens at our peril.

13 posted on 09/05/2003 7:42:07 AM PDT by Publius6961 (californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks.)
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To: Happy2BMe
"What is reality?"

Excellent question-and Postmodernists (hey France and Germany as well as Media elites) have their own answer as follows:

"Postmodernists often express a profound skepticism regarding the Enlightenment quest to uncover the nature of truth and reality. Perhaps the most striking examples of this skepticism are to be found in the works of French cultural theorist, Jean Baudrillard. In his book Simulations, he contends that social 'reality' no longer exists in the conventional sense, but has been supplanted by an endless procession of simulacra.

The mass media, and other forms of mass cultural production, generate constant re-appropriation and re-contextualisation of familiar cultural symbols and images, fundamentally shifting our experience away from 'reality', to 'hyper-reality'."

I suggest that such a “hyper-reality” is Palestine and the so-called faux cycle of violence.

14 posted on 09/05/2003 7:43:31 AM PDT by Helms ("I Want My MTV" (More Televised Vulgarity))
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To: Happy2BMe
The EAST is only slam???? NO WAY! You forget that Eastern Orthodox Christianity flourished and still survives in places like Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria. You also forget the three other civilisations that aren't either slamic or Western Christian, viz. the Chinese, Japanese and Indian civilisations.
15 posted on 09/05/2003 7:49:40 AM PDT by Cronos ('slam and sanity don't mix, ask your Imam.....)
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To: freeangel
quran(9:11) For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughtout the lands of allah and for a while some of the people trembled in despair, still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of allah and there was peace.(notice the verse)


This gave me goosebumps when reading it. Can it be substantiated?????

16 posted on 09/05/2003 7:57:23 AM PDT by undergroundwarrior
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To: Cronos

This Imam’s for you@…………..http://www.salaam.co.uk/index.php

17 posted on 09/05/2003 7:58:05 AM PDT by Helms ("I Want My MTV" (More Televised Vulgarity))
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To: freeangel; All
Freeangel, I need some help on this... I don't know the quran, so I did a few searches on the internet, and this is what I came up with:

"9.11": But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.

can you show me where your above regarding the wrath of the Eagle can be found? Thanks.

CGVet58

18 posted on 09/05/2003 8:04:34 AM PDT by CGVet58 (Por mis compatriotas, mi vida... para nuestros enemigos, La Espada!!!)
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To: freeangel
re: quran 9:11: this is a hoax. I have a copy of the Qu'ran and that's not what verse 9:11 says, nor is there any verse in the Qu'ran that refers to eagles (a bird not native to Arabia)
19 posted on 09/05/2003 8:09:42 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer === needs a job at the moment)
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To: CasearianDaoist
Again the leftist con game of the backwardness of "Europe." by focusing on northern Europe they totaly disregard Byzantium - the seat of European knowledge of the day.

The Muslims prefer to ignore Byzantium. They also make grand claims to "Arabic numbers" and Algebra -- when those are INDIAN developments that the Muslims absorbed when they conquered India. The Muslims were pretty good about writing down the discoveries of others and preserving that knowledge, but not so good at actually originating anything

The Muslim civilization went downhill when they stopped expanding -- and thus halted the influx of loot and slaves experienced in running civilizations that propped them up

20 posted on 09/05/2003 8:13:57 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer === needs a job at the moment)
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To: SauronOfMordor
Any help on this- I thought GWB made his NOW pronouncement in March of 1991- according to the Islamiscist it was 9-11-91 (10 years before 9-11):

Axis of Evil: Hitler, George W. Bush and the Dajjal (Anti-Christ) By Brother Abdul Karim Hattin (Producer of 'From The Shadows' Series) Islamic Circles The Froud CentreRomford Road (on the corner with Toronto Ave),- Manor ParkLondon E12 5JFUnited Kingdom Sunday, 21 September 2003Start time: 11am End time: 1pm On September the 11th 1991, former American president George Bush proclaimed the birth of a New World Order, 11 years later his son current American president George W. Bush declared a crusade against an Axis of Evil but behind the media propaganda is the greatest secret of the New World Order, a secret plan that was brought to life by Adolf Hitler and the creation of the Aryan God. Brother Abdul Karim Hattin reveals the links between the mysterious Order of the Skull and Crossbones, Bohemian Grove, global racism and the Coming of the Dajjal (Anti-Christ) with the plan to subvert true Islam and it’s replacement with “Aryan Islam”. Please note this is the full un-edited version from the talk first given at the Al-Ansar centre which had to be shortened due to time constraints, this talk will reveal more and will leave you both shocked and amazed as the true foundations of modern society are torn down in this eye opening talk, due to it’s serious nature it is highly recommended that you bring your families and a non-Muslim with you so they can benefit from this event.

21 posted on 09/05/2003 8:18:20 AM PDT by Helms ("I Want My MTV" (More Televised Vulgarity))
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To: CGVet58
Sorry, my bad. I should have researched this myself. It was forwarded to me by a friend.
22 posted on 09/05/2003 9:30:29 AM PDT by freeangel (freeangel)
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To: CGVet58
Sorry, again. It was forwarded to me by a friend and I should have verified it myself.
23 posted on 09/05/2003 9:32:36 AM PDT by freeangel (freeangel)
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To: freeangel
"Sorry, again. It was forwarded to me by a friend and I should have verified it myself."

Trust, but verify.

24 posted on 09/05/2003 10:54:50 AM PDT by Happy2BMe (LIBERTY has arrived in Iraq - Now we can concentrate on HOLLYWEED!)
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To: Happy2BMe
The Koran is here: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/
Some of it is very chilling, even without making up verses.
25 posted on 09/05/2003 12:09:33 PM PDT by CalvaryJohn (What is keeping that damned asteroid?)
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To: Happy2BMe
THIS IS REALITY


To: hellinahandcart

From cnn.com:
Reports: Plane crashes into world trade center

3 posted on 09/11/2001 8:59 AM EDT by sanchmo
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26 posted on 09/05/2003 12:17:31 PM PDT by LurkedLongEnough (Think, Post, Repeat.)
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To: Helms
How the Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe

"From the fall of Rome to the rise of Charlemagne -- the "dark ages" -- learning, scholorship and culture disappeared from the European continent. The great heritage of western civilization -- from Greek and Roman classics to Jewish and Christian works -- would have been utterly lost were it not for the holy men and women of unconquered Ireland." (from the book jacket)

27 posted on 09/05/2003 12:29:12 PM PDT by FairWitness
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To: Helms
It was the Abbasid dynasty, founded after an internal Muslim coup in the year 750, that absorbed the Hellenic legacy at a time when, under Charlemagne, Europe intellectually withered.

And where is the evidence for this cultural achievement?? There has to be more than just translating Indian and Latin into Arabic.

28 posted on 09/05/2003 12:32:18 PM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: FairWitness
My husband just finished this book, he said that we can thank the Irish for capitalism, and most of the economic models we use. They had it all right, and then we came over here and made it work.

When I say we, I mean the United States of America and her citizens.
29 posted on 09/05/2003 12:34:27 PM PDT by eyespysomething
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To: Helms
It isn't a clash of civilizations so much as a clash of cultures.

And the Islamic world has lost the culture war already, even if it still maintains some semblance of a civilization (and make no mistake, compared to some war zones in Africa and South America, many parts of Arabia and Persia look downright civilized).

As a culture, Muslum boys are spoiled and exalted by their mothers. They are not expected to do much of the household work, and they have a religious aversion to taking mundane jobs such as those found in manufacturing. Nor does the Islamic culture look kindly on those who work in the service industries, many of whom are considered to be no better than slaves.

And while that sort of elitist attitude might work OK for a rich Saudi shiek, it fails to properly educate and innovate throughout the full society. The rich shiek thus has power only because he can sell something such as oil that has was given for free; something that will eventually run out (cultures think in terms of millenia). Those few in the Muslim world who have great wealth can indeed have power so long as they maintain that wealth, but that's a system based upon financial power (and rather limited financial power at that) rather than upon a dynamic, innovating, thriving Western culture where more patents are filed every day than oil wells or mines are drilled or dug.

And it is because Muslims subconsciously recognize that they have lost the culture war that they are so depressed, angry, and violent in their dying defense of their own system.

30 posted on 09/05/2003 12:43:20 PM PDT by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: freeangel; CGVet58; SauronOfMordor
As you've discovered, your quote was bogus. However, this one is a bit interesting.

9.110": The building which they have built will ever continue to be a source of disquiet in their hearts, except that their hearts get cut into pieces; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

"9.111": Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.

31 posted on 09/05/2003 12:47:36 PM PDT by Diplomat
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To: Helms; LurkedLongEnough; joesnuffy; rintense; All
I got a book my in-laws were throwing out titled "The Last 2 Million Years" full of fascinating info on past civilizations.

The advances made by Arabs, Islam, the Persians et al were a tremendous benefit to the world.

The point they are at now is a pity, because they have frozen in time, from a time long long ago. Why? Dunno.

They used to allow unbelievers to live amongst them, but only as second class citizens. I am unsure when the "kill all the infidels" came about.

But one cannot dismiss their achievements to the modern world. They mapped stars, invented the almanac( an arabic word), invented the numbering system which we use today, invented paper, explained why the sun and moon appeared larger on the horizon, developed the basis for modern algebra(another arabic word) geometry, trig, calculus, in fact they were one of the first peoples to use the scientific method for experimentation. They also translated many Greek works into Arabic, which were then passed to early Europeans who translated them back into their languages. Many of these would have been lost during the Dark Ages of Europe.

Yes, Islam now sucks. It is a religion without tolerance, full of hate, which promotes killing to further its agenda.
But thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago, they contributed much to the world.
32 posted on 09/05/2003 12:54:33 PM PDT by eyespysomething
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To: Helms; *Clash of Civilizatio
Indexing.
33 posted on 09/05/2003 12:58:25 PM PDT by denydenydeny
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To: eyespysomething
algebra(another arabic

Correction. AL jahabra was the name of the arab who took what's now called algebra from India to Persia and Arabia.

That branch of mathematics came to be known as algebra after this arab gent.

Likewise, Arabic numerals were purloined from India.

Let's forget the Byzantine civilisation, too,
34 posted on 09/05/2003 2:06:54 PM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: Helms
Silliness. Those characteristics of the Islam that existed between around AD 800-1200 are not a part of the current fundamentalist interpretation at all, these being religious tolerance, cultural openness, and the ability to integrate existing infrastructure essentially unchanged. None of that exists in the hard-line theocratic model around which the fundamentalists are designing their fantasy worlds. The likelihood of any intellectual renaissance in the presence of this sort of stifling orthodoxy is nil. How, I wonder, do commentators such as this one anticipate any result different from the universally dismal one such governments have shown in the past?
35 posted on 09/05/2003 2:34:20 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Helms
faiths it had to be realized that human knowledge could never be more than conjectural. If there is a truth, it can be understood only by means of mystical intuition.

Bill Clinton WROTE this, didn't he?
36 posted on 09/05/2003 3:09:30 PM PDT by tet68
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To: tet68
“human knowledge could never be more than conjectural”

Postmodern gobbilygook.

Don’t know, could have been, or even part of Hillary Clintons thesis at college (now under wraps).

I believe some people believe that truth is only discernable by some elites (like Madonna) And their mystery religions.

37 posted on 09/05/2003 3:42:02 PM PDT by Helms ("I Want My MTV" (More Televised Vulgarity))
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To: CalvaryJohn
Besides the Qu'ran, we should also be familiar with the Sunnah and Hadith . They are:
In Islam, the Arabic word sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad (saas), the Messenger of Allah, lived his life. The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur'an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them. The Arabic word hadith (pl. ahadith) is very similar to Sunnah, but not identical. A hadith is a narration about the life of the Prophet (saas) or what he approved - as opposed to his life itself, which is the Sunnah as already mentioned.
For example, it is in the Hadith that you see the requirement to execute apostates (those who renounce Islam):
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
and regarding Jihad
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"


38 posted on 09/05/2003 5:33:32 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer === needs a job at the moment)
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To: eyespysomething
They used to allow unbelievers to live amongst them, but only as second class citizens. I am unsure when the "kill all the infidels" came about.

The infidel has the choice of living as a 2nd-class citizen, and paying tribute, or being killed. The infidels who must be killed are all those who refuse to submit to being ruled by Muslims

39 posted on 09/05/2003 5:47:36 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer === needs a job at the moment)
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