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Jupiter homeowner faces foreclosure for flying U.S. flag
Sun-Sentinel ^ | 11 Sep 2003 | Peter Franceschina

Posted on 09/12/2003 6:32:56 AM PDT by Rick.Donaldson

Defiant flag flier George Andres once again is facing the prospect of losing his Jupiter home after a Palm Beach County judge ruled Wednesday that his homeowners association could go forward with a foreclosure sale next month to collect legal fees.

Andres, a Marine veteran, said he was worried about losing his home, but he vowed to appeal the latest ruling in a legal saga that has spanned more than two years.

(Excerpt) Read more at sun-sentinel.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: association; firstamendment; flag; florida; foreclosure; hoa; homeowner; jupiter; marine
If those bastards can BURN a flag on public property, then ANYONE ought to be able to fly a flag on their OWN private property!
1 posted on 09/12/2003 6:33:00 AM PDT by Rick.Donaldson
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To: Rick.Donaldson
Amen to that!
2 posted on 09/12/2003 6:34:46 AM PDT by Sunshine Sister
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To: Rick.Donaldson

3 posted on 09/12/2003 6:36:28 AM PDT by CanisMajor2002 (Government grows when permanent agencies are raised to handle episodic phenomena.)
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To: Rick.Donaldson
Better yet, if burning the flag is supposedly Constitutionally protected free speech, then why is flying the flag not considered the same?
4 posted on 09/12/2003 6:38:33 AM PDT by cincinnati65
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To: cincinnati65
I thought I said that??

I'm wondering if the Freepers in that area (if there are any) have actually been following this story for the last couple of years, and if not, why not? Why are they out there protesting this nonsense?
5 posted on 09/12/2003 6:44:02 AM PDT by Rick.Donaldson (NMD @ MDA)
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To: cincinnati65
Better yet, if burning the flag is supposedly Constitutionally protected free speech, then why is flying the flag not considered the same?

"Free speech" refers to your relationship with the gov't: the latter shuold not interfere with your exercies of it. This does not mean that a private citizen or an organization cannot interfere: I have no right of free speech in your house, for instance; if you get terribly upset with what I say, you can throw me out.

Home-owners association is a private organization, and your speech within it is not free.

6 posted on 09/12/2003 6:46:05 AM PDT by TopQuark
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: cincinnati65
Better yet, if burning the flag is supposedly Constitutionally protected free speech, then why is flying the flag not considered the same?

Except that the Bill of Rights only applies to Govt action. There is no Govt action here.

8 posted on 09/12/2003 6:47:52 AM PDT by gdani
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To: Rick.Donaldson
If those bastards can BURN a flag on public property, then ANYONE ought to be able to fly a flag on their OWN private property!

As ridiculous as the controversy is, this person should have never chosen to live under the authority of the homeowners association.

Why someone would choose to subjugate themselves to even more authority with one of these groups I'll never know.

9 posted on 09/12/2003 6:50:26 AM PDT by gdani
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To: gdani
Why someone would choose to subjugate themselves to even more authority with one of these groups I'll never know.

For two reasons: (i) one typically LIKES the bylaws of the association and thinks that they'll keep the value of the propery up, and (ii) in some areas it is not the question of whether to live within an association but which of them -- there are hardly other choices.

10 posted on 09/12/2003 6:53:32 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: gdani
Property values. (Allegedly.) Glad I don't live in one!
11 posted on 09/12/2003 6:55:06 AM PDT by coloradan
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To: TopQuark
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

I lived in a Homeowner's Association for 4 years...I still own the townhome as rental property. They also tried to tell me that I could not have a garden flag outside my front door. I fought them and won by showing how ouotlandish their "by laws" were and how they were not enforced unilataterally. It did not even go to court since I threatened them with discrimination law-suits as well.

Homeowner's Associations are also not "dictatorships". This fellow needs to start a campaign with other homeowners and take over the association which can be done fairly easily since most associations do not have a large amount of participation. In most cases you can do it by getting only 20% of the residents to be active and support you.

One recommended link for more information is...

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/realestate/home_prob.html
12 posted on 09/12/2003 7:02:09 AM PDT by SONbrad
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To: gdani
Why someone would choose to subjugate themselves to even more authority with one of these groups I'll never know.

Me niether. In a nation which has spilled so much blood for freedom, why anyone would pay money to live in a little communistic community controlled by a power-mad politburo mystifies me. To pay good money for a home, and then willingly allow others the power to take away that home, borders on insanity.

13 posted on 09/12/2003 7:08:25 AM PDT by Skooz (Exterminate Terrorist Vermin)
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To: gdani
Why someone would choose to subjugate themselves to even more authority with one of these groups I'll never know.

Although I would never buy real property where I had to be a member of a homeowners' association ("HA"), many people do for several reasons. First, they either don't read the purchase contract of prospectus, or don't truely understand or appreciate the powers of an HA. Second, HA's are able to enact private zoning and land use restictions that go beyond the powers of local government, which are subject to constitutional and statutory restrictions (although that's hard to believe in view of the last few SCOTUS decisions on the government's right to restrict private land use). Third, HA's are often more responsive and efficient than the local town board, highway department, or zoning enforcement administrator, who may take months to fill in a pot hole or to commence zoning enforcement proceedings against your neighbor who keeps a herd of goats grazing in the front of his 1/16th of an acre parcel, in violation of the local zoning code.

14 posted on 09/12/2003 7:19:10 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
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To: SONbrad
I am glad you have prevailed in your battle.

However, I could not find a single word in your post that was related to mine. Was it addressed to me in error?

15 posted on 09/12/2003 7:29:13 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: Rick.Donaldson
This is why I despise homeowner associations. They may start out with a good premise, but the busy bodies figure out how they can get a little bit of power over their neighbors, or really screw with those they don't like. I've seen more bad than good come out of homeowner associations.

Everybody repeat after me, flying an American flag will not lower your property values.

16 posted on 09/12/2003 7:45:50 AM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: Rick.Donaldson
Mr. Andres' house is on the right of this photo:


17 posted on 09/12/2003 7:49:01 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.)
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To: TopQuark
My point is that you stated in your post that your speech was not "free" in a homeowner's association. That is untrue. Your speech is just as free there as anywhere. However, like anywhere else, sometimes you have to fight to retain that right from those that would try to suppress it.
18 posted on 09/12/2003 8:00:49 AM PDT by SONbrad
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To: Liz
Ping!

See? I told you these covenant people are communists.

J
19 posted on 09/12/2003 8:05:38 AM PDT by J. L. Chamberlain
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To: J. L. Chamberlain
Andres should threaten them with (1) discrimination, (2) hate crimes, and, (3) inflcting emotional distress on him and his family by impeding his ability to display his love for his country.
20 posted on 09/12/2003 8:36:55 AM PDT by Liz
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To: Liz
Andres should threaten them with (1) discrimination, (2) hate crimes, and, (3) inflcting emotional distress on him and his family by impeding his ability to display his love for his country.

If it was some kind of gay pride flag, I'd be willing to bet they wouldn't say a word to him about it or threaten him or anything.

21 posted on 09/12/2003 9:07:25 AM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: af_vet_rr
Oh, and if they did, you can bet the syncophantic press would give this lead story status with 24/7 updates and wailing gay-rights wackos getting face time aplenty.
22 posted on 09/12/2003 9:13:50 AM PDT by Skooz (Exterminate Terrorist Vermin)
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To: Rick.Donaldson
The space aliens have definitely taken over ...
23 posted on 09/12/2003 9:16:00 AM PDT by meadsjn
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To: af_vet_rr
Perverts are a "protected class." They have more "rights" that you, me or Andres.
24 posted on 09/12/2003 9:41:29 AM PDT by Liz
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To: SONbrad
you stated in your post that your speech was not "free" in a homeowner's association

Please reread the post. Free speech refers to the gov't having a duty not to interfere with your expression. The homowners association does not have such as duty. Yours is a common misconception about free speech.

25 posted on 09/12/2003 9:50:26 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: Rick.Donaldson
GEORGE ANDRES AND HIS ATTORNEY WERE JUST ON HANNITY & COLMES. The re-run of the show will be on after Greta and O' Reilly. Thought you might want to know.
26 posted on 09/12/2003 6:30:38 PM PDT by floriduh voter (HELP TERRI AT http://www.courttv.com Phone 1-800-COURT-56)
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To: floriduh voter
HANNITY is going to help him raise the money....
27 posted on 09/12/2003 6:36:29 PM PDT by cmsgop (If you Sprinkle When You Tinkle,...Be a Sweetie and Wipe the Seatie......Priceless!!!!!!!!)
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To: floriduh voter; JohnHuang2
Hannity just pledged to raise the 25K for Mr Andres. He said he'll donate the first 5K if Mr Andres is left with no other recourse. I'm pledging the next 100.

Semper Fi Mr Andres.

28 posted on 09/12/2003 6:38:02 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Rick.Donaldson
I just saw Mr. Andres and his lawyer on Hannity & Colmes. This homeowners' association did not even have anything in their deed restrictions about flagpoles or anything. According to the homeowner and his attorney, after his flagpole was up, the association decided they wanted only flags flying from brackets attached to homes. So the association has been very devious and dishonest from the start. The homeowner needs $25,000 to save his house, and Hannity said that if it got close to foreclosure, he would personally put up $5,000 and raise the rest so the association would not get the man's house. These bastards at the association cannot be allowed to kick this man out of his home, especially when they are making regulations up as they go along!
29 posted on 09/12/2003 6:42:10 PM PDT by padfoot_lover
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To: cmsgop
Condo and homeowners' associations in Florida do as they please. The Dept. of Prof. Regulations protect their own. The Bureau of Compliance doesn't have enough staff to investigate but they will send booklets on how to file a Complaint with a letter that says "you're on your own."

Beware of purchasing a condominium in Florida. They are even worse than a homeowner's association. It's not as funny as Kramer from the Seinfeld show running for President of Boca Vista Condominiums. (the name was something like that).

Property managers and boards know they can violate law after law and nobody will hold them acccountable. I'm about to win a battle myself and have my fingers crossed. I waged my battle without an attorney. Condo attorneys in Fla. are just as bad as the rest of the system.

30 posted on 09/12/2003 6:42:44 PM PDT by floriduh voter (HELP TERRI AT http://www.courttv.com Phone 1-800-COURT-56)
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To: TopQuark
The homowners association does not have such as duty. Yours is a common misconception about free speech.

True enough however the homeowners association has a duty to live up to their covenants. In this case there is nothing in the covenant restricting a flag pole.

31 posted on 09/12/2003 6:45:04 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Rick.Donaldson
I guess the ACLU is not interested in this one but what if it was the rainbow homo flag the guy wanted to fly?
32 posted on 09/12/2003 6:45:40 PM PDT by One_American
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To: jwalsh07
You could always do a tag line for freepers to help George Andres by contacting Hannity. I'm helping someone right now with my tag line.
33 posted on 09/12/2003 6:45:53 PM PDT by floriduh voter (HELP TERRI AT http://www.courttv.com Phone 1-800-COURT-56)
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To: floriduh voter
Good cause. I've been active myself.
34 posted on 09/12/2003 6:48:33 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: floriduh voter
Kramer from the Seinfeld show running for President of Boca Vista Condominiums.

Hey. It was Mortie Seinfeld and La Boca Vista Condos. But he was obviously skimming Assoc. funds because they could afford to eat out after the 'early-bird' cutoff time.

Trivia: What was the name of the Soup Nazi....

35 posted on 09/12/2003 6:49:49 PM PDT by Swanks
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To: SONbrad
I'm deed restricted in front of a home subdivision at a townhouse. This is Bucs Country. People hang American Flags all week and Bucs Flags on game day. Bucs fans also write B U C S in their upper windows. We are integrated. I love this place because we're left alone here as long as we pay the maintenance fee. I feed stray cats the days they show up at my door. People can have as many pets as they want as long as they behave.

There are only like 12 Rules.

The condo I lived at had 30 rules PLUS the BYLAWS. NEVER AGAIN. And, they thought our money grew on trees at the condo but you wouldn't know it by looking at the condition of the buildings at my old place.

So,my point is, you can find a nice townhouse hooked onto a deed restricted community (they don't want tons of rules to follow in the burbs) and you're better off than in a condo. I'm done now. Off my soapbox. lol

36 posted on 09/12/2003 6:54:18 PM PDT by floriduh voter (HELP TERRI AT http://www.courttv.com Phone 1-800-COURT-56)
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To: Liberal Classic
I am so non-plussed by that flagpole. You can't even see it. People with no lives serve on Boards to make other people's lives miserable. NO LIVES.
37 posted on 09/12/2003 6:55:50 PM PDT by floriduh voter (HELP TERRI AT http://www.courttv.com Phone 1-800-COURT-56)
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To: Liz
Fla. AG Crist knows about Andres' case. The Civil Rights Dept. of his dept. is out of Ft. Lauderdale. I imagine that George has already filed a Civil Rights Complaint with the fla. AG's office. If not, that's a good angle. Then it goes to local Human Relations Dept. to investigate. Then Human Relations, an arm of HUD would throw the book at his homeowner's association.
38 posted on 09/12/2003 6:58:20 PM PDT by floriduh voter (HELP TERRI AT http://www.courttv.com Phone 1-800-COURT-56)
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To: Swanks
I don't remember the name of the soup nazi but remember that Kramer gave out astronaut pens to bribe people to vote for him and they were defective? So, Kramer lost the election and went back to NY.
39 posted on 09/12/2003 7:02:23 PM PDT by floriduh voter (HELP TERRI AT http://www.courttv.com Phone 1-800-COURT-56)
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To: Rick.Donaldson
I love Florida but it's full of bastards.
40 posted on 09/12/2003 7:04:18 PM PDT by floriduh voter (HELP TERRI AT http://www.courttv.com Phone 1-800-COURT-56)
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To: floriduh voter
Name of Soup Nazi : Yev Kazem. (From the final "Trial" episode.)

"State your name" Yev Kazem
"Would you spell it" No ! next question !

41 posted on 09/12/2003 7:07:47 PM PDT by Swanks
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To: Swanks
Ah, yes. The trial.
42 posted on 09/12/2003 7:11:09 PM PDT by floriduh voter (HELP TERRI AT http://www.courttv.com Phone 1-800-COURT-56)
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To: floriduh voter
I think the problem here isn't so much that they are trying to foreclose on the man's home. I think they are trying to impose restrictions they can't impose in the first place. What's more is even if Hannity and the rest of us chip in and save the guy's home, then what? It starts all over again! They will go after him again for the flag pole because he won't take it down (and I wouldn't either, I'd burn the home down before I'd let them take the flag myself!)

Point is, that saving the man's home IS a priority, but the very next thing is to go after these leftist bastards that started this in the first place. Hurt them financially. Sue them for voilation of civil rights, freedom of speech, etc. If jack asses can burn the flag (like they did here in Colorado this past week) and probably get away with it, then by God that Marine has a RIGHT to FLY the United States Flag whereever and WHENEVER he wants! (I sure am glad this isn't happening in Colorado, I'd be standing in front of the Home Owners ASSociation leader's home burning copies of the contracts. lol)
43 posted on 09/16/2003 6:51:28 AM PDT by Rick.Donaldson (NMD @ MDA)
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To: Rick.Donaldson
I was in a similar situation, in an impossible condo complex where the Board broke every rule and the DBPR wouldn't do anything and neither would the Board of Compliance (although at least they believed me).

The last straw was when they painted the bldgs a horrid color and it literally looked like a giant crypt. I put my place up for sale the next day and found a wonderful new place.

If George is uncomfortable living there when this is all said and done and he could sell his place for a profit, there must be a better place he could live where common decency reigns.

Hannity was talking about George again today. I'm much happier since I left and the folks back at the old place, who socked it to me are in really big trouble. I can't go into detail but Boards and LCAMs and even their so-called expert attorneys, don't know jack about Federal Law.

44 posted on 09/16/2003 2:25:06 PM PDT by floriduh voter (http://www.conservative-spirit.org)
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To: gdani
Why someone would choose to subjugate themselves to even more authority with one of these groups I'll never know.

In California, a good homeowners association is practically mandatory. Why? Because they can pass rules that governments can't...like one family per house. We've had a recent phenomenon out here where Jose Farmworker will buy a house, and then move in 40 of his closest relatives in order to afford the house payment. This typically means 15 screaming kids keeping the neighbors awake at night, 10 cars parked in the street and lawn (usually 1 or two on blocks), a house that quickly looks like something out of a Tijuana slum, and the occasional live chicken.

The only way to avoid this is to A) buy in neighborhoods so expensive that the farmworkers could never afford to buy in. Or B) buy in a less expensive neighborhood with a HOA that restricts those things. My home is currently up for sale (buying up), but I live in a neighborhood with a HOA run by intelligent, normal fellow homeowners. We restrict the number of cars you can have (you can only have one parked outside at night...since we have three car garages, each house is effectively limited to four cars), the number of people you can have (four per bedroom), prohibit any outdoor animals other than dogs and cats, and require that everyone keep their home in a condition "comparable" to the rest of the neighborhood (that means: mow your lawn, trim your bushes, fix any seriously chipped paint, and no neon green paintjobs).

The trick to having a good HOA is participation...you need to participate and you need to convince your neighbors to participate. Our HOA doesn't have a "president", it has a governing board elected once a year with a two consecutive-term limit (based on the address in order to keep a single household from hanging onto a seat). We also have a "no-confidence" provision that will allow the residents to disband the board with a 2/3rds vote and hold new elections. All of this works to keep our board honest, and keeps the power mad ninnies from damaging the neighborhood.

Oh, and nearly everyone in our neighborhood flies the flag, and several have poles. There was a provision in the original HOA rules (drafted by the builder) that prohibited flag flying, but we scrapped it in our first meeting after taking the HOA over.
45 posted on 09/16/2003 2:58:39 PM PDT by Arthalion
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