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The Selling of Sally Hemings
Oregon Magazine ^ | September 14, 2003 | Thomas Lipscomb

Posted on 09/14/2003 1:36:48 PM PDT by WaterDragon

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1 posted on 09/14/2003 1:36:48 PM PDT by WaterDragon
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To: WaterDragon
It's always been a source of amusement to me how folks operate on "info"-bytes: e.g., "Sally Hemmings" elicits "oh that slave that Thomas Jefferson screwed?"

Often I wonder how much of what we think we know, is actually true...

2 posted on 09/14/2003 1:42:41 PM PDT by maxwell (Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation...)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: Mo1
One of the strengths of America is that we have more of the best of every nation here -- Europe, Asia and Africa -- and a powerful mingling over the centuries of these best, than any other country in the world. We're raucus, argumentative and competitive with each other, but at the end of the day, we know our identity -- we're Americans. We all want to get to the top, to be the best....and in the process we lift each other up a little more.

Recently a friend who is originally from Scotland told me she at least knows her race is 'pure.' LOL. How sad. She's not yet Americanized enough to understand the sterility of that view.


4 posted on 09/14/2003 1:48:23 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: mhking
Bump!

Maxwell -- I agree, the libbie media does it's darnedest to create these buzz words to create automatic reactions in hopes they'll pass for 'knowledge.' Thank goodness for conservate writers.
5 posted on 09/14/2003 1:54:05 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: WaterDragon
"Recently a friend who is originally from Scotland told me she at least knows her race is 'pure.' LOL. How sad. She's not yet Americanized enough to understand the sterility of that view."

Well, you know what happens with just about any species with too much "in-breeding". The royal family of Europe had huge issues with this and experienced hemophilia and insanity on a regular basis. The same goes for just about any race of people.

Mixed breeds have proven to be stronger, more resilient and in many instances more intelligent than pedigreed -- that goes for dogs too!!!
6 posted on 09/14/2003 2:09:03 PM PDT by alethia
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To: alethia
Amen to that, alethia!
7 posted on 09/14/2003 2:11:01 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: WaterDragon
I read in "Don't Know Much ABout History" that it could've been any one of the TWENTY Jeffersons living on the land there.
8 posted on 09/14/2003 2:11:42 PM PDT by DTwistedSisterS
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To: alethia
Sally Hemings sounds a worthy ancestress regardless of who fathered her children.
9 posted on 09/14/2003 2:14:20 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: DTwistedSisterS
Very true. The important person, it seems to me, was Sally herself.
10 posted on 09/14/2003 2:15:12 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: WaterDragon
I am inclined to believe they did have a child together. Would not have been unusual anyway. Sally Hemmings herself was half English and half African. Anyway, Sally Hemmings had a choice. When she was in Paris, under French law any slave that touched French soil was free. She could have stay, but she went back with Jefferson. Besides, she being his dead wife's half sister, she probably LOOKED like her.

I just want to know what the New York Slimes hopes to achieve from a non-event 200 years ago.
11 posted on 09/14/2003 2:15:16 PM PDT by cyborg (and you thought I was joking about the tinfoil hat)
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To: maxwell
Yes, good point. The evidence is that it's a Jefferson, but which one? I'm sure in the future DNA science might be able to tell, but not now. The evidence points to the brother of Jefferson. The article states that Sally Hemmings was the 1/2 sister of Jefferson's wife Martha. Interesting fact unbeknownst to me.
12 posted on 09/14/2003 2:15:45 PM PDT by I_Love_My_Husband
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To: WaterDragon
I read an article just a few months ago that showed that a very large part of the Scotish population has very mixed blood- Scotish, Nordic, English and "other." So I guess "pure" is a relative term.
13 posted on 09/14/2003 2:16:02 PM PDT by fini
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To: WaterDragon
The Democrats udsed the Sally Hemings lie to bash a truly great American just so they could somehow redeem their rapist President,Bildo. This psuedo-history broke at the time of the FreeRepublic "March for Justice" 10/31/98.

The tragedy is that a wonderful American got trashed, and when you go to Monticello, and see Jefferson's home, in the context of the times. he took excellent care of his slaves, to the point of buying produce from them on land he gave them to grow vegetables for themselves. The slaves stayed on the Monticello for three and four generations because they had a home there and were well treated.

The genetics did not prove that Jefferson fathered anyone with Sally Hemings. Only that it was a Jefferson male.

But since when did the truth matter to Democrats. Whatever works in a pinch to accomplish their devious objectives.
14 posted on 09/14/2003 2:19:18 PM PDT by exit82 (Constitution?--I got your Constitution right here!--T. Daschle)
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To: cyborg
I just want to know what the New York Slimes hopes to achieve from a non-event 200 years ago.

I've wondered if the "New York Slimes" staff are merely lazy or actually afraid of reality. They seem to avoid any reference to it, certainly.

15 posted on 09/14/2003 2:19:33 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: fini
I think by 'pure' she meant northern Europe. The current political and moral condition of that area of the world today is not particularly outstanding. The best of it are already here! LOL
16 posted on 09/14/2003 2:21:31 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: exit82
The Democrats udsed the Sally Hemings lie to bash a truly great American just so they could somehow redeem their rapist President,Bildo.

What is truly nasty about the Democrats is that they believe that to connect a slave family with Jefferson lowers Jefferson! Why not assume that the Jefferson line had been invigorated by infusion of the bloodline of an intelligent, beautiful negress? If they are going to assume anything at all?

17 posted on 09/14/2003 2:25:04 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: WaterDragon
If they want a juicy interracial sex scandal, perhaps they should investigate Jesse Jackson, Jr.'s little trysts... ooooo I know. That's going low but the Slimes are scraping the bottom anyway. Seriously, you are right about the NYT.
18 posted on 09/14/2003 2:30:05 PM PDT by cyborg (and you thought I was joking about the tinfoil hat)
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To: WaterDragon
Interestingly, the week that the committee of historians released their findings on who was the father was also the week that the White House invited the white and black descendants of Jefferson to the White House. Even though the DNA evidence was insufficient to say that Thomas Jefferson was indeed the father of several of Sally Hemings children, the White House recognized them as such. The Bush White House. Sally Hemings did have at least one child who was definitively NOT a Jefferson.

One of my college professors was on the committee, and he loved to find out bad things about Jefferson. However, even he could not conclude that Thomas Jefferson was the father. He didn't think Jefferson physically had it in him to father ANY child when the alleged offspring were conceived. I'm less certain and think it possible.
19 posted on 09/14/2003 2:32:39 PM PDT by petitfour
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To: cyborg
Ewww. I can't imagine anyone hoping Jesse Jackson is their granddaddy!
20 posted on 09/14/2003 2:33:03 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: WaterDragon
It serves their agenda to portray Sally Hemmings as a lowly black ugly uneducated slave. In fact, she was mulatto and very educated, and obviously loved Jefferson if she stayed with him so long whether or not they had children.

Completely unrelated BUT there was a slave Pierre Toussaint, a black slave, who selflessly stayed with his master's family and took care of them after the master died. He was up for canonization as a saint, BUT many saw him as not a good 'role model' for blacks. The democraps are evil and wicked. Sheesh, they don't even have their facts straight.

How can a country progress if you face backwards all the time and look at the past? Especially looking at it, in a shoulda coulda woulda and I hate so-and-so way.
21 posted on 09/14/2003 2:38:02 PM PDT by cyborg (and you thought I was joking about the tinfoil hat)
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To: exit82
The tragedy is that a wonderful American got trashed, and when you go to Monticello, and see Jefferson's home, in the context of the times. he took excellent care of his slaves, to the point of buying produce from them on land he gave them to grow vegetables for themselves. The slaves stayed on the Monticello for three and four generations because they had a home there and were well treated.

Yeah, he treated them so well he put mortgages on them in order to finance the constant building of Monticello. The slaves stayed on because they were slaves, he only freed 5 slaves in his will and the rest were put up for auction along with Monticello after he died.

I think you have Jefferson confused with Washington, who did treat his slaves well and freed them after Martha's death- many of his ex-slaves stayed in the area afterwards.

22 posted on 09/14/2003 2:41:58 PM PDT by LWalk18
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To: maxwell
"It's always been a source of amusement to me how folks operate on "info"-bytes: e.g., "Sally Hemmings" elicits "oh that slave that Thomas Jefferson screwed?"

Often I wonder how much of what we think we know, is actually true..."

Oh, but the liberals want so badly for it to be true.

23 posted on 09/14/2003 2:52:30 PM PDT by davisfh
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To: LWalk18
Reference?
24 posted on 09/14/2003 2:57:36 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Something caught my eye....and dragged it 15 feet.)
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To: petitfour
Sally Hemings did have at least one child who was definitively NOT a Jefferson.

I have always suspected that Tom Woodson (the alleged oldest son) was not Sally's son either- the one Hemings child who gave an account of his parentage, Madison, claims that Sally's first child died in infancy.

One of my college professors was on the committee, and he loved to find out bad things about Jefferson. However, even he could not conclude that Thomas Jefferson was the father. He didn't think Jefferson physically had it in him to father ANY child when the alleged offspring were conceived. I'm less certain and think it possible.

Given the fact that I think President John Tyler remarried at 54 and had seven children in his fifties and sixties with a wife thirty years younger I also don't believe that it was impossible for Jefferson to father children up to age 65.

I tend to believe that he and Sally had a relationship, based on the fact that she only conceived when he was at Monticello, this during the years in which he was serving in Washington's cabinet, as Vice President, and President. It has not been document that Randolph or any other Jefferson was there at all the times she conceived children. In fact, no other Jefferson was advanced as suspects until after the DNA tests- before Jefferson's family and historians insisted that Jefferson's nephews the Carr brothers were the likely fathers- too bad they were excluded by the DNA tests.

25 posted on 09/14/2003 3:03:56 PM PDT by LWalk18
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To: netmilsmom
Any Jefferson biography will tell you that Monticello and its contents, including its slaves were auctioned after his death. The fact that Jefferson died deeply in debt is also in any biography of Jeffeson. And I am sure you can find his will perhaps online, and he clearly frees only five of his slaves.
26 posted on 09/14/2003 3:09:40 PM PDT by LWalk18
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To: cyborg
It serves their agenda to portray Sally Hemmings as a lowly black ugly uneducated slave. In fact, she was mulatto and very educated..

So why isn't it enough to simply have bragging rights to Sally as an ancestor? Do her accomplishments not rate pride unless somehow a Jefferson is thrown into the mix?

27 posted on 09/14/2003 3:23:07 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: cyborg
How can a country progress if you face backwards all the time and look at the past?

Even if you can claim a line from someone famous and respected, how does that help when there are probably plenty of scoundrels also in that line? LOL My husband's family are descendents of John Adams.....but also of that outlaw Jesse James! Along with a few preachers that got run off by their congregations! It's all just silly.

28 posted on 09/14/2003 3:26:36 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: WaterDragon
They probably brought it up again to make Clinton look better.
29 posted on 09/14/2003 3:30:04 PM PDT by freekitty
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To: DTwistedSisterS
25
30 posted on 09/14/2003 3:43:14 PM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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To: WaterDragon
Really I just see both sides engaging in this ancestor worship, which I find pointless. You are right. It's as if somehow genius will be channeled down through the genes. Not true. All of my family tree are poor people. Poor Italians, poor Spanish sugar cane cutters, etc. People are trying to derive some weird sense of self esteem from the ether instead of relying on God and their immediate family.
31 posted on 09/14/2003 3:45:45 PM PDT by cyborg (and you thought I was joking about the tinfoil hat)
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To: cyborg
People are trying to derive some weird sense of self esteem from the ether instead of relying on God and their immediate family. Well said!
32 posted on 09/14/2003 3:46:50 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: WaterDragon; cyborg
I just want to know what the New York Slimes hopes to achieve from a non-event 200 years ago.

I've wondered if the "New York Slimes" staff are merely lazy or actually afraid of reality. They seem to avoid any reference to it, certainly.

They are unregenerate frauds. The NYT articles were full of weasely language and outright lies.

33 posted on 09/14/2003 3:48:12 PM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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To: davisfh
I've noticed that what the liberals want to be true is often reported as true, in the liberal media. They do lead a rich, if one-note, fantasy life. Particularly the NYTimes.
34 posted on 09/14/2003 3:49:35 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: mrustow
The NYT articles were full of weasely language and outright lies.

That could be why they are losing readership?

35 posted on 09/14/2003 3:50:59 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: WaterDragon
This guy is brilliant. This article is as clever and rich in knowledge as it is succinct.
36 posted on 09/14/2003 3:52:03 PM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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To: mrustow
All the news that is unfit to print? How are they still the paper of record? I think the Enquirer tells the truth more than they do. Even after Jayson Blair, they still act as if people read and believe what they say. If it's time for LMS (luddite menstrual syndrome), I usually pick up the New York Post. Otherwise, I read FR. Why I've seen stuff appear on FR before Drudge!
37 posted on 09/14/2003 3:55:11 PM PDT by cyborg (and you thought I was joking about the tinfoil hat)
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To: mrustow
This guy is brilliant. This article is as clever and rich in knowledge as it is succinct.

That's what I thought, and why I posted it.

38 posted on 09/14/2003 3:55:26 PM PDT by WaterDragon (America the beautiful, I love this nation of (legal) immigrants.)
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To: WaterDragon
The NYT articles were full of weasely language and outright lies.

That could be why they are losing readership?

I think the paper hit a critical mass of scandal, at which point readers actually became embarrassed to be associated with it. Not perhaps because the paper publishes lies on a daily basis, but because it got caught.

39 posted on 09/14/2003 3:55:32 PM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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To: WaterDragon
Thanks.
40 posted on 09/14/2003 3:55:56 PM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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To: cyborg
I think "ancestor inspiration" would be a better view.

You are correct. It is agreed that Hemmings was a 50/50 mulatto at least is it not and that she was sired by someone connected to Jefferson and that she had liasions within the Jefferson family.

I'm not sure how much can be proved beyond that other than as you point out that she was loyal to him without question.

Is there any written correspondence detailing whether or not she was a concubine to him from him, his daughter or anyone else with close knowledge.

The probability of a liasion with a fairly cultured well traveled mulatto of her standing with an old widower planter-statesman is hardly inconcievable.

It's ironic that in American history it remains speculative whereas in non-English speaking slave owning societies, it would have been assumed as a given.
41 posted on 09/14/2003 3:57:49 PM PDT by wardaddy (Roland will be missed by me.)
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To: cyborg
Really I just see both sides engaging in this ancestor worship, which I find pointless.

It's not ancestor worship. It's more like stamp collecting, at least for me.

I've got a little bit of the whole world in my familly tree, from kings of England and Mayflower Pilgrims on the one hand, to abolitionist radicals and Indian chiefs and Mormon polygamists and black slaves on the other-- even one Gypsy.

The story of America is woven into every cell in my body. Probably it lives in yours too. Try to learn more about it someday, and I am sure you will find it interesting.

-ccm

42 posted on 09/14/2003 4:02:46 PM PDT by ccmay
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To: All
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/tomsally.html

An article in the November 5, 1998, edition of Nature provides DNA evidence that Thomas Jefferson or some other male Jefferson such as Randolph, the brother of Thomas, could have been the father of one of the sons of Sally Hemings, who was a slave at Jefferson's Monticello. The technique relies on the fact that the human Y-chromosome is handed down directly from father to son and that all paternally related males will have the same Y-chromosome. Although Thomas Jefferson did not have any sons who survived to produce children, his father's brother, Field Jefferson, did have sons and it has been possible to locate 5 descendants of Field Jefferson who are in a direct male-line of descent. Thus, these individuals (descendants of Field Jefferson) should have the same Y-chromosome DNA as the Y-chromosome DNA of Thomas Jefferson and any male-line descendant of his.

The male-line descendants of two of Sally Hemmings sons were located and their Y-chromosome DNA was examined for comparison to the Y-chromosome DNA of Field Jefferson's descendants. The DNA from the five male-line descendants of Thomas Woodson, oldest son of Sally Hemings, did not match the Jefferson DNA. In fact, one of Woodson's descendants did not match well with the other four. However, the DNA from the one descendant of Eston Hemings, youngest son of Sally Hemings, did match the Jefferson DNA.

This lends credence to the supposition that Thomas Jefferson may have been the father of Eston Hemings. However, historian Williard S. Randall, notes, "There were 25 men within 20 miles of Monticello who were all Jeffersons and had the same Y chromosome. And 23 of them were younger than Jefferson, who was 65 years old when Eston was conceived." Randall, wrote a 1993 biography of Jefferson, titled, Thomas Jefferson: A Life. More detailed information is available. Three different authors provide some perspective on Jefferson and Hemings in The Nation. Finally, the The Jefferson-Hemings Scholars Commission concluded that Randolph Jefferson, Thomas' brother, was more likely to have fathered Eston Hemings.

43 posted on 09/14/2003 4:14:05 PM PDT by I_Love_My_Husband
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To: ccmay
What I meant was the way the people on both sides are putting such an immense stake in the life of one fallible human being. It is ancestor worship. I work with people everyday who worship Haile Selassie as God, that people worship making someone out to be more than they ever were.
How about just looking at one's immediate family? I carry around pictures of my mom and dad. I could be inspired by what my ancestors did and how hard they worked. It really would not matter to me that instead of a poor sigar cane planter, that my great grandfather was some rich colonist.


The story of America is woven into every cell in my body. Probably it lives in yours too. Try to learn more about it someday, and I am sure you will find it interesting.

** None of my relatives are from America but I look at my dad since he came here first. It was him that convinced my mother to stay here when she was wanted to turn around and go home. Not because she couldn't hack it in America, she found the vice and society very distateful. My mother was a stay at home mother. She taught me all there is to know about being a fanatical anglophile and how hard she had to work. My dad personified the European immigrant of the early twentieth century. Hard scrabble life in the ghetto then using a pushcarts (my dad sold hats) becomes a millionaire.

I have lots to be inspired about. But I am also inspired by other cultures as well. I don't need to be black to be inspired by black personalities that most Americans know about. If one thinks about it, loo at slaves who built businesses. There really is NO EXCUSE for anyone not to succeed in America.
44 posted on 09/14/2003 4:17:44 PM PDT by cyborg (and you thought I was joking about the tinfoil hat)
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To: All
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/jeffhemm.html

Defining the Possible Link Between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings:
Lineages and DNA Markers

In order to answer the question of whether or not Thomas Jefferson could have been the father of any of Sally Hemings' sons it is necessary to compare the Y-chromosome DNA from the living male-line descendants of Jefferson and Hemmings. Is has been possible to locate male-line descendants of two of Sally Hemings' sons, Thomas Woodson (the oldest) and Eston Hemings the (youngest), but not Madison Hemings whose male-line descendants did not survive the Civil War. Shown in the figure to the right is the lineage of the one male-line descendant (H21) of Eston Hemmings and the five male-line descendants (W55, W56, W69, W70, and W61) of Thomas Woodson whose DNA was analyzed as part of the study.
Furthermore, Thomas Jefferson did not have a son survive to reproduce so it was necessary to locate the male-line descendants of Thomas Jefferson's paternal uncle, Field Jefferson. Five such descendants (J41, J42, J47, J49, and J50) were located and their DNA was analyzed.
It was also possible to locate three male-line descendants (C27, C29, and C31) of Samuel and Peter Carr -- the sons of Thomas Jefferson's sister -- whom some consider as the possible fathers of Sally Hemings' children.
In the table below are the results of an examination of the Y-chromosome DNA of the 14 male-line descendants described above. Where an individual differs from the other members of his cohort, the allele difference is shown in bold face. The five descendants of Field Jefferson (and proxies for Thomas Jefferson) have identical Y-chromosome DNA alleles except for one microsatellite DNA from J50. This difference is most reasonably accounted for by assuming that a mutation occured.
The lone descendant of Eston Hemings has the same set of Y-chromosome DNA alleles as the descendants of Field Jefferson. This supports the claim that Thomas Jefferson could have been the father of Eston Hemings although it does not prove it since the father could have been any male who had the same Y-chromosome as Thomas Jefferson and was in the immediate vicinity of Sally Hemings nine months before the birth of Eston Hemings. In fact, historical evidence implicates Randolph Jefferson, Thomas' brother, as the more likely father of Eston Hemings. The Carr descendants have similar DNA among themselves but are clearly different from either the Jefferson or Hemings descendants.
Four of the descendants of Thomas Woodson are quite similar among themselves but different from Jefferson and Hemings although they do have similarities to the descendants of the Carr line. One of the Woodson descendants is quite different from all of the other individuals which suggests that one of the genetic ancestors was not in the direct line from Thomas Woodson.

Family Pedigree
Member
Bi Allelic Markers Microsatellite STR Mini Satellite MSY1

Jefferson J41 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J42 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J47 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J49 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J50 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,16,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16

Hemings H21 0000001 15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7 (3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16

Carr C27 0000011 14,12,5,12,3,10,11,10,13,13,7 (1)17, (3)36, (4)21
C29 0000011 14,12,5,11,3,10,11,10,13,13,7 (1)17, (3)37, (4)21
C31 0000011 14,12,5,12,3,10,11,10,13,13,7 (1)17, (3)36, (4)21

Woodson W55 0000011 14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7 (1)16, (3)27, (4)21
W56 0000011 14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7 (1)16, (3)27, (4)21
W69 0000011 14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7 (1)16, (3)27, (4)21
W70 1110001 17,12,6,11,3,11,8,10,11,14,6 (0)1, (3a)3, (1a)11,
(3a)30, (4a)14, (4)2
W61 0000011 14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7 (1)16, (3)28, (4)20

Other Sites of Interest


This document maintained by Robert J. Huskey Last updated on February 25, 2003.

45 posted on 09/14/2003 4:21:04 PM PDT by I_Love_My_Husband
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To: All
Jefferson did NOT have a male heir! They had to use Field Jefferson's DNA! So, that DOES skew the DNA results a bit anyways.
46 posted on 09/14/2003 4:22:40 PM PDT by I_Love_My_Husband
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To: WaterDragon
We who peruse the problems of mass immigration to Scotland, via the internet, are aware of it's many facets. Persons often post articles from The Scotsman. People who read the British press are aware of London's answer to the swarming incoming "refugees".

Fat burghers of officials are shipping them off to Scotland. I do not doubt your statement on your Scottish friend. Knowing the Scots (Some of 'em) as I do, I respectfully suggest said person was putting you on.

Moves are being made to create a melting pot there, by the multi-culturalist dabblers. Persons to the fore are Albanians at this point in time, trouble has errupted. Preferencial treatment the norm.

47 posted on 09/14/2003 4:26:23 PM PDT by Peter Libra
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To: I_Love_My_Husband
The purists cannot deny that Jefferson spent years in fornication with Sally Hemmings, so he was not the perfect man they want him to be. They do not know for sure if he was or wasn't fathering children by Sally Hemmings. If he was sleeping with her then it's a possibility. Some of the Jefferson descendants are willing to accept the other sides' claims and half aren't at all. The other side had their own Jefferson family reunion and some of the direct descents of Jefferson attended so... whatever. I just want to know what it would do for people to know that their ancestor is Thomas Jefferson.
48 posted on 09/14/2003 4:27:24 PM PDT by cyborg (and you thought I was joking about the tinfoil hat)
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To: WaterDragon
I've wondered if the "New York Slimes" staff are merely lazy

Well, I think that the Times is so committed to the idea of "diversity" as in diversity-at-a-glance, that they will automagically fall for anything that promotes a member of a minority group, and/or debases the memory of a key member of the traditional Establishment.

The irony is that the Times's own raace relations are disastrous... for one thing, individuals are seen as if the most important thing about them is their membership in a group. That Jayson Blair was a member of a group teh Times management wants to promote, to them, trumped all those little indicators of his character: the lying, the cheating on expences, the drug use. The really sad part of it is, that because they only see people based on group-membership, the next young black reporter to apply will meet the same insultingly low expectations that Blair did. Meanwhile the predominantly white (& disproportionately Jewish) editorial staff will be thinking what they don't dare say, "well, we can't expect much from one of 'them' because Blair showed us what 'they' are like."

Of course, it's a crock, but it's really how people who see the world through a prism of racism (benevolent no less than hostile) think.

Every once in a while the Time mentions some institution that doesn't have "enough" of some minority or other. They often compare the targeted institution to the military, where race relations are simply not much of an issue. They miss the point completely, because the Army, for instance, can do things employers can't do: conduct extensive pre-employment testing, and assign and train people strictly on their abilities without regard to superficialities. Black soldiers aren't resentful, because they know that they are assigned and promoted with scrupulous fairness. White soldiers serve confidently under black officers because they know that the officers met every standard every inch of the way. While a Jayson Blair can keep screwing up and go unpunished, a soldier can't hide behind his race or anything else: I saw a promising black colonel thrown out for a serious ethical lapse, and a white guy whose father was one of the legendary combat leaders in the history of the Army tossed out when he didn't measure up. If you have standards, race becomes a non-issue. But meaningful standards are forbidden to many civilian employers.

Compare the Army way to the NYT newsroom under Gerald Boyd, a man of limited ability who was put into a position of power because Punch and Raines wanted a black face and he was available.

The Sally Hemings story is of interest to these people, because the only thing in their world that matters is the part of your DNA that is similar to others from your own continent or geographical area. While racial differences are interesting to study, they are not proof of anything about specific human beings. Which is why conservatives, who see people as individuals, tend to be less focused on race (and indeed, less racist) than liberals, who define people based on involuntary group-membership.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

49 posted on 09/14/2003 4:29:48 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F (Support Billybob! >>>>========>>> http://www. ArmorForCongress.com/)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
How many people are coming back with complaints from soldiers that the US media isn't telling the truth? We're winning, the people love us,etc. and all the media reports is bad news? In case the media forgot, they do get news over there.
50 posted on 09/14/2003 4:33:36 PM PDT by cyborg (and you thought I was joking about the tinfoil hat)
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