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507th Weapons Records Missing
El Paso Times | 17 Sept. 2003 | Laura Cruz

Posted on 09/17/2003 11:23:07 AM PDT by Lurker

507th weapon records gone

Laura Cruz
El Paso Times

The ambush

Killed

# Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, El Paso.

# Chief Warrant Officer 2 Johnny Villareal Mata, Pecos.

# Spc. Jamaal R. Addison, Roswell, Ga.

# Pfc. Howard Johnson II, Mobile, Ala.

# Spc. James Kiehl, Comfort, Texas.

# Pvt. Brandon Sloan, Bedford Heights, Ohio.

# Pfc. Lori Piestewa, Tuba City, Ariz.

# Sgt. Donald R. Walters, Salem, Ore.

# Master Sgt. Robert J. Dowdy, Cleveland.

# Pfc. Edward Anguiano of the 3rd Forward Support Battalion.

# Sgt. George Buggs of the 3rd Forward Support Battalion.

Captured

# Spc. Edgar Hernandez, Alton, Texas.

# Spc. Joseph Hudson, Alamogordo.

# Spc. Shoshana Johnson, El Paso.

# Pfc. Patrick Miller, Walter, Kan.

# Sgt. James Joseph Riley, Pennsauken, N.J.

# Pfc. Jessica Lynch, Palestine, W.Va.

# Piestewa died while a prisoner.

The U.S. Army on Tuesday revealed that all records and documents about the weapons that jammed during the March 23 ambush that led to the death of nine Fort Bliss soldiers were destroyed in the Iraqi attack and that there is no way to trace the weapons' histories.

The Army, responding to an El Paso Times request under the Freedom of Information Act, said any official information about the weapons used by Fort Bliss' 507th Maintenance Company was lost on a supply truck taken into combat.

An official report on the ambush near Nasiriyah said that several weapons, including M-16s, M249 Squad Automatic Weapons and a .50-caliber machine gun, jammed or failed to operate properly during the firefight.

The disclosure that the records were lost shocked, bewildered and further angered relatives of soldiers who were killed in the early morning ambush, which is among the worst losses for the U.S. military during Operation Iraqi Freedom. In addition to the nine Fort Bliss soldiers killed, two from the 3rd Forward Support Battalion were killed, five soldiers were wounded, and seven soldiers were taken prisoner.

"Capt. Troy King (507th commander) stated that he does not have any historical data on weapons involved in the enemy contact," June Bates, Fort Bliss freedom of information officer, said in a written response. "He lost his motorpool truck and all documentation."

Bates said King's records, which were kept in the motor pool, were stored in his supply truck, which was also "involved in the enemy contact."

The official 507th report, which was released by the Army on July 17, suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

Nancili Mata, the widow of Chief Warrant Officer 2 Johnny Villareal Mata, who was killed in the ambush, said she was shocked to learn that no duplicate records were kept on the weapons.

"They should have copies here. It doesn't sound right," she said. "They are blaming the soldiers for not keeping their weapons clean, but my husband knew better than that. He did everything right."

Arlene Walters, mother of Sgt. Donald R. Walters, who died in the attack and would have celebrated his 34th birthday Tuesday, said her son was dedicated to his job and to details. She said she finds it hard to believe that her son's weapon wasn't kept clean.

"He kept his guns as clean as can be," she said. "He even talked to his dad about it."

Because the circumstances surrounding the death of Walters are unclear, his parents continue to ask questions about anything involving their son, including the history of his weapon.

"Nothing surprises me anymore, but what I don't understand is why would you carry that kind of information into a battlefield," Arlene Walters asked. "It seems to me that if those weapons were issued out at Fort Bliss, then the records should have stayed at Fort Bliss."

Ruben Estrella, father of 18-year-old Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, from El Paso, said he no longer believes anything the Army tells him.

"They told me that my son was shot in the head, and now they are saying that he was struck by a tank," he said. "I think the Army or the government is hiding something, but sooner or later the truth will be told."

Fort Bliss responds

The El Paso Times had requested the history of 31 weapons the soldiers carried during the ambush. The request sought information about weapon repairs, the weapons' ages, and the manufacturer and condition of each weapon assigned to the 507th soldiers involved in the attack.

Officials at the Department of Defense referred all questions to Fort Bliss officials.

Jean Offutt, Fort Bliss spokeswoman, said that taking all data regarding a company's weapons into battle is standard practice.

"When we deployed, all our active-duty soldiers had to take their documents with them because we mobilized a lot of reservists who lived in the emptied barracks," Offutt said. "So all of their personnel files as well as files on weapons were taken with them."

Because personnel files were lost in the ambush and no duplicates exist, the 507th is now trying to re-create the information. Also, Offutt said, some of the weapons the 507th used haven't been recovered.

"But shortly before the soldiers deployed, all of the weapons were certified and serviceable," Offutt said. "The weapons were fired on the firing range before they deployed."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 507th; ohbrother
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Humm.

L

1 posted on 09/17/2003 11:23:10 AM PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker
The weapons were not defective--only the soldiers' maintenance of those weapons.
2 posted on 09/17/2003 11:24:18 AM PDT by Poohbah ("[Expletive deleted] 'em if they can't take a joke!" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: Poohbah
The weapons were not defective--only the soldiers' maintenance of those weapons.
And you know that how?
3 posted on 09/17/2003 11:25:48 AM PDT by drjimmy
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To: drjimmy
I've fired the M16, M203, and M249 during my service in the USMC. They will operate properly if they are maintained properly.
4 posted on 09/17/2003 11:26:50 AM PDT by Poohbah ("[Expletive deleted] 'em if they can't take a joke!" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: Poohbah
Something smells funny here. This "lost records" excuse is an old tired yarn.
5 posted on 09/17/2003 11:26:59 AM PDT by Rusty Shackelford
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To: drjimmy
The weapons were not defective--only the soldiers' maintenance of those weapons. And you know that how?

Before ANY patrol/movement with possible contact to the enemy you should
1) clean your weapon
2) do a function check on the same weapon.

Anything less is criminally negligent by any trooper, marine or NCO running them.

6 posted on 09/17/2003 11:30:54 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Islam : totalitarian political ideology / meme cloaked under the cover of religion)
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To: drjimmy
Jamming is just a term meaning the rifle would not work properly. Usually has to do with a feed problem. If the weapon is dirty at all, any problems is has will be magnified.

The M-16, the SAW and the M-60 all must be cleaned and maintained after each use. Some of these weapons are from the Vietnam era and have multiple sources of ware that will cause the weapons to fail if allowed to get dirty.

If you are in a non-direct combat unit, you are not focused on your weapon and don't have the experience of it jamming after an day of hard use.

I will bet that they were issued weapons that were rejects from an infantry unit. This is why the loss of the records is important to saving careers.
7 posted on 09/17/2003 11:32:58 AM PDT by Rusty Shackelford
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To: Poohbah
The CO of that unit should be relieved of command.

L

8 posted on 09/17/2003 11:32:58 AM PDT by Lurker ("To expect the government to save you is to be a bystander in your own fate." Mark Steyn)
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To: drjimmy
Those weapons are reliable, but like any other mechanical object, they need to be maintained.

"Ash 'n Trash" units are notorious for neglecting their personal weapons.

9 posted on 09/17/2003 11:37:22 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (Stir the pot...don't let anything settle to the bottom where the lawyers can feed off of it!)
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To: Rusty Shackelford
Maintenance logs on weapons are a low level document that follows the unit on deployment. No duplicates are kept. There would be no purpose to trying to set up a central duplicate file, because the records are used by the unit to keep track of routine maintenance.

My recollection is that this unit had been on road march from Kuwait over 24 hours, much of it in a sandstorm. Unless they were keeping their weapons wrapped in plastic or cleaned them shortly before the engagement they were likely fouled just from the trip.

10 posted on 09/17/2003 11:38:53 AM PDT by colorado tanker (USA - taking out the world's trash since 1776)
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To: Lurker
So one guy's civilian wife says, "There must be copies here." and everybody's supposed to say, "Sure they do." Bullshit. Small arms maintenance records are recorded on small slips of paper and kept with the maintenance/armorers vehicle. Even if they had not been destroyed, they wouldn't show who cleaned what, and when. Military wives should STFU about military matters and keep the kids fed. Many of these wives are starting to go directly to the press, hidering our war effort. Loss of base priveleges would be a good start for some of them.
11 posted on 09/17/2003 11:42:48 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Lurker
We had problems with the M-16s during DESERT SHIELD, but it was because we weren't using the correct lube. Once we started using the proper gun oil they worked fine, even when dirty.
12 posted on 09/17/2003 11:47:43 AM PDT by mbynack
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To: Lurker
The "records" at unit level would consist of a DD314 which only records the date of TM specified services and/or lubes performed and scheduled. With weapons and other small items (masks, heaters, stoves, etc) many items can be recorded on the same DD314, i.e. 200 M16's would be one entry for an annual inspection.
13 posted on 09/17/2003 11:48:59 AM PDT by Feckless
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To: Lurker
"They are blaming the soldiers for not keeping their weapons clean, but my husband knew better than that. He did everything right."

Arlene Walters, mother of Sgt. Donald R. Walters, who died in the attack and would have celebrated his 34th birthday Tuesday, said her son was dedicated to his job and to details. She said she finds it hard to believe that her son's weapon wasn't kept clean."He kept his guns as clean as can be," she said. "He even talked to his dad about it."

Based on my experience those weapons probably had not been cleaned prior to the order to depart kuwait. If they had been most if not all would have worked. Remember that the front line troops also marched from Kuwait right before them and we have heard nothing of entire 3ID or Marine units with large numbers of weapons failures.

14 posted on 09/17/2003 11:48:59 AM PDT by Ispy4u (Again ignoring #3Fan)
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To: SJSAMPLE
I think this Army wife is asking legit questions...If I thought the Army was lying to me, you bet I would persue it.....
15 posted on 09/17/2003 11:49:37 AM PDT by mystery-ak (Happy Birthday, Mike...wish you were here.)
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To: SJSAMPLE
Yep. In my experience routine weapons cleaning was not logged.
16 posted on 09/17/2003 11:50:22 AM PDT by colorado tanker (USA - taking out the world's trash since 1776)
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To: Redleg Duke
"Ash 'n Trash" units are notorious for neglecting their personal weapons.

Not just weapons, but all their equipment. Their idea of the acronym PMCS is not "Preventative Maintenance Checks and Services. They think it stands for"

Park [the]
Mother [and]
Call [the]
Shop.

17 posted on 09/17/2003 11:53:46 AM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Clone Ann Coulter, the woman sent by God)
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To: colorado tanker
Unless they were keeping their weapons wrapped in plastic or cleaned them shortly before the engagement they were likely fouled just from the trip.

Put a condom on the tip and a strip of duct tape over the ejection port and you're good to go for any sandstorm.

18 posted on 09/17/2003 11:53:51 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Islam : totalitarian political ideology / meme cloaked under the cover of religion)
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To: Centurion2000
What are the chances that a rear echelon maintence unit would do that? I mean, those guys were so far to the rear I never would have heard of them, much less see them. If not for bad navigation they never would have been near the fighting.
19 posted on 09/17/2003 11:58:23 AM PDT by colorado tanker (USA - taking out the world's trash since 1776)
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To: Lurker
>>The CO of that unit should be relieved of command.

Only if you believe what you read in the papers. Linda Cruz could be the pen name for Jason Blair. It's my understanding that they got lost and ambushed by Iraqi irregulars, "militia", since the Iraqi Regular Army isn't worth a picture (sic) of warm urine. The result was approximately 500 milliMogadishu, on the DiGenova scale.

Surrounded by a numerically superior force firing from cover, they eventually ran of ammunition and were all killed or captured. These things will happen when you get separated and isolated, especially lightly armed support troops. If all or many of their weapons were so poorly maintained they failed to operate, the commander should be court-martialed for gross dereliction of duty. If one confused unit made a wrong turn, as units will inevitably do, they need to take some lessons learned and move on.

20 posted on 09/17/2003 12:00:02 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Uday and Qusay and Idi-ay are ead-day)
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To: Lurker
Sometimes the weapon is fine and the magazine is wack-a-doo. I remember having to keep 19 rounds in the magazine, the 20th round would sometimes retract the spring too tight where it wouldn't release. Also grit in the magazine could do the same thing.

Sure seems like too many weapons and too many different kinds of weapons to be the weapons fault.
21 posted on 09/17/2003 12:02:21 PM PDT by stylin19a (is it vietnam yet ?)
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To: Lurker
Liberal type slander, hiding behind their common cry that no one should be held responsible, even when they die or fail. Having spent 20-years with the Army around weapons, it was rare for a misfire - and being a true professional I made damn sure I knew how to clear the round/jam. Trouble with support troops is that they care little for their physical fitness, weapons training or anything akin to being a soldier... a fatal flaw in combat.
22 posted on 09/17/2003 12:06:57 PM PDT by Jumper
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To: Lurker
"...were destroyed in the Iraqi attack ..."

I heard that aliens guided by Santa Claus took them...Well, its just as believable anyway...

23 posted on 09/17/2003 12:07:02 PM PDT by gnarledmaw
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
One account I read said that the CO's GPS locator was not working and he had not been issued a map for this area. The same account said he passed a stationary Marine unit outside the town. Maybe its just me, but if I had a support unit before passing through a combat unit my reaction would be to take a break and look up that Marine CO just to be sure I was where I was supposed to be.
24 posted on 09/17/2003 12:10:44 PM PDT by colorado tanker (USA - taking out the world's trash since 1776)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets; Lurker
The CO of that unit should be relieved of command.

Only if you believe what you read in the papers. Linda Cruz could be the pen name for Jason Blair. It's my understanding that they got lost and ambushed by Iraqi irregulars...

The account I heard (ABC, 20/20?) was that the unit made a wrong turn, passed a Marine unit at one end of a bridge, and drove on into hostile territory at the other side of the river. They drove on through town unmolested: it was only then the CO realized the navigational error. At this point, IMHO, all is still forgiveable. Been driving all night, it's now dawn, people are tired, mistakes happen.

However, the CO decides to drive back through the town to return to the supply line. Meanwhile, the town has woken up to the fact that U.S. troops are nearby, and the Army unit gets slammed. The decision to run back through the gauntlet was the worst choice from a decidedly poor set of alternatives.

25 posted on 09/17/2003 12:37:41 PM PDT by Fudd
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To: colorado tanker
Look, there's living witnesses to this. You can write up all the maintenance papers you want. It's not like they're time stamped and put into a hermetically sealed jar, in a vault, in the middle of the desert for future reference.

It's a miracle that there were any survivors!! Kudos to their rescuers.

26 posted on 09/17/2003 12:39:03 PM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: Fudd
I can forgive tactical errors and navigational errors. Command failure to adequately train, drill and prepare troops is not forgivable.
27 posted on 09/17/2003 1:06:33 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Uday and Qusay and Idi-ay are ead-day)
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To: Sacajaweau
The Army has already done a report based on interviewing all concerned that seems pretty accurate by comparison to the public information. It's the families who are claiming a cover up because the maintenance logs were lost in battle. Some in the unit are trying to blame defective equipment, but there isn't any support for that either.

I'm not critical of the soldiers, who responded the best they could when attacked. I am somewhat critical of the commander who got them into that pickle, however.

28 posted on 09/17/2003 1:11:27 PM PDT by colorado tanker (USA - taking out the world's trash since 1776)
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To: drjimmy
The weapons were not defective--only the soldiers' maintenance of those weapons.

And you know that how?

I would have to agree with Poohbah on this

This is not intended to be a derogatory comment but this Companys was normally not to be in front line combat there the second or third string (again not intended to be a derogatory comment)

There maintenance of there weapons might also be second or third string it might be “natural” but not acceptable

Compounding the problem is the front line troops get the first rate weapons as they should.

The second or third string might get the older weapons so you have a viscous cycle.. the troops that might tend to have the bad habit of doing less weapons.maintenance get the weapons that required the most...you have to be aware that this might be the way it is and keep on top of it

The Marines have it right EVERYONES a combat rifleman this is not bravado its common sense ... if you in the back ranks and get the old weapons guess what you have got the time to do what’s needed to keep your weapon in top working order

29 posted on 09/17/2003 1:26:02 PM PDT by tophat9000 (The price for Tom to drop is ....Parsky goes ....let Tom have the CA party purse strings)
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To: Lurker
The CO of that unit should be relieved of command.

I recently reviewed the actual report the Army put out regarding the attack on the 507th at An Nasiriyah, and I could not agree with you more. This guy is responsible for them taking the wrong route in the first place, but even on the route he took his unit would have most likely made it to their next destination if the CO had not made the second wrong turn into the city of An Nasiriyah. Even with these two mistakes, he could have again led is troops out of harm if he had not missed the ramp back on to the freeway when the convoy had turned around and backtracked through the city. On top of all this, it appears he executed an improper retreat by hauling a#@ away and leaving the rest of the troops in slower moving vehicles to fend for themselves. 

30 posted on 09/17/2003 1:46:58 PM PDT by Chief_Joe (From where the sun now sits, I will fight on -FOREVER!)
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To: Feckless
Where would other records be? Wouldn't there be some history on each gun or gun lot--manufacturer, date of purchase, circulation, etc.?
31 posted on 09/17/2003 3:50:59 PM PDT by AnnaLaura
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To: Chief_Joe
While the unit commander is part of the problem Department of the Army policy is the crux of the matter. It's very simple, these troops were not prepared to engage an enemy in any environment no less an environment where the constant maintenance of your weapon was paramount.

The solution is not hanging unit commanders or NCO's, the solution is for the Army to take a hard look at how the USMC trains every Marine to be a rifleman first and foremost.

And it pains me to say that since I am Army and my son in law is a Marine.

But that's the fact of the matter.

32 posted on 09/17/2003 3:59:16 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Lurker
Laura Cruz: Another media slut fabrication!
33 posted on 09/17/2003 4:02:21 PM PDT by verity
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To: Rusty Shackelford
"Something smells funny here. "
"First thing you know Jessica's a millionaire" (sung to the tune of the Beverly Hillbilly's).
34 posted on 09/17/2003 6:34:55 PM PDT by afz400
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To: AnnaLaura
Not at unit level. These weapons were fired prior to deployment and annually (at a minimum) prior to that. Neglect at user level (which can happen only with NCO/Officer neglect) most likely caused malfunctions.
35 posted on 09/17/2003 7:22:21 PM PDT by Feckless
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To: Chad Fairbanks; CyberCowboy777
Ping.
36 posted on 09/17/2003 7:28:50 PM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (Hard work never killed anyone, but why take a chance?)
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To: afz400; Chad Fairbanks
LOL - you should put Chad to work on that - unless you've completed it, in which case, I want to hear it! : )
37 posted on 09/17/2003 7:30:46 PM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (Hard work never killed anyone, but why take a chance?)
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet; Chad Fairbanks
What is the chance that these records would be destroyed with no backups?
38 posted on 09/17/2003 7:41:59 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (SELECT * FROM liberals WHERE clue > 0 .............................................. 0 rows returned)
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To: jwalsh07
While the unit commander is part of the problem Department of the Army policy is the crux of the matter. It's very simple, these troops were not prepared to engage an enemy in any environment no less an environment where the constant maintenance of your weapon was paramount.

I agree with you that Army policy is part of the problem, but I think it goes up a bit higher, dare I say Secretary of Defense higher. Those soldiers knew how to clean their weapons, and they were trained and instructed to do so repeatedly all the way up to when they begin to roll out of Kuwait. From what I read, it seems that they were undermanned. They had two men/women per vehicle and they were not just driving through Iraq, but they were supporting and replenishing the supplies of the air defense unit. The time and energy required to do this meant some things had to go to keep the convoy moving. With more crew members they could have assigned someone to the perpetual upkeep of the weapons.

39 posted on 09/17/2003 7:53:04 PM PDT by Chief_Joe (From where the sun now sits, I will fight on -FOREVER!)
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To: CyberCowboy777; #3Fan
Who knows if they have actually been destroyed? But if they havn't, I bet our good buddy #3fan would be willing to destroy those records, in order to spare PFC Lynch from having to deal with the media...
40 posted on 09/17/2003 7:54:27 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks ("I guess we got so focused on the rubber penis we didn't even pay attention to what he was saying.")
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To: Chad Fairbanks
How can I take you seriously?

Is that tag line going to stay long! lol
41 posted on 09/17/2003 7:56:57 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (SELECT * FROM liberals WHERE clue > 0 .............................................. 0 rows returned)
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To: CyberCowboy777
Only until the next Taglinus Free Republicus, I guess. ;0)
42 posted on 09/17/2003 7:59:15 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks ("I guess we got so focused on the rubber penis we didn't even pay attention to what he was saying.")
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To: Poohbah
The wind blows constantly around An Nasiriyah and the dust that it carries with it is very fine (powdery even) which makes it extremely difficult to properly maintain your personal weapon. I think this contributed more to the maintenance problems experienced by the 507th than poor training.
43 posted on 09/17/2003 8:03:29 PM PDT by 91B (Golly it's hot.)
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To: Rusty Shackelford
The only weapon that might be from the Viet Nam era would be the M-60.

It ain't your Daddy's M-16 anymore.
44 posted on 09/17/2003 8:03:32 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat.)
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To: 91B
Oh, come on. Riding around in a HumVee means you are not necessarily out in the dust - and with all the down time while riding around, it would be an ideal time to clean your weapon - a little bumpy, but not all THAT hard.

Secondly, a simple condom placed over the end of your rifle barrel will keep any dirt or dust out.

Bottom line, there is NO excuse for never maintaining your weapon. Never.

But, that's just the opinion of someone who would want to stay alive and thus would make it a priority.
45 posted on 09/17/2003 8:06:58 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks ("I guess we got so focused on the rubber penis we didn't even pay attention to what he was saying.")
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To: Lurker
I would be a hell of a lot more interested in the records of small arms training that was or was not preformed prior to deployment.

It is not unusual for non combat units to receive only familarization fire and virtually no instruction. ( 30 rounds per soldier per year )

Just got an E-Mail from a friend in a transportation unit in Iraq who said after 6 months he finally got to zero his weapon and practice for weapons qualification.

46 posted on 09/17/2003 8:16:24 PM PDT by Newbomb Turk (BOHICA. Bend Over Here It Comes Again.)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
I'm telling you the dust and sand is freakin' unbeleivable (but, hey, what do I know? I was only up there for seven weeks). In ten minutes you were covered and any oily spot on your weapon was turning brown. I suspect that most of these troopers had their weapons pointed downrange while they were driving up MSR Tampa (more or less like most American interstates) and didn't notice how filthy they were getting until it was too late.

Secondly, very few troops were (or for that matter are) keeping their weapons covered with a condom (they are kind of a rare comodity). I saw a few who had rigged a brown t-shirt around the muzzles and down to the ejector port, but that isn't practical in combat.

47 posted on 09/17/2003 8:21:54 PM PDT by 91B (Golly it's hot.)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
Oh, come on. Riding around in a HumVee means you are not necessarily out in the dust - and with all the down time while riding around, it would be an ideal time to clean your weapon

I read the Army's official report on the attack on the 507th. Below is a full account of the actions PFC Lynch took during the ambush.

 

 

 

 

48 posted on 09/17/2003 8:27:19 PM PDT by Chief_Joe (From where the sun now sits, I will fight on -FOREVER!)
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To: 91B
Well, I was never in Nasariyah, so I wouldn't know the local climate. I can relate to the desert dust though, but as I said - my weapon was a priority and ANY downtime was spent maintaining it. And I wasn't on the 'front lines'. I just can't for the life of me understand the mentality of any soldier or sailor or airman or marine or whatever who would allow their weapon to get dirty and not notice it - nor can I understand the mentality of any NCO or Officer who would not make this a priority for those under their command...
49 posted on 09/17/2003 8:27:38 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks ("I guess we got so focused on the rubber penis we didn't even pay attention to what he was saying.")
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To: Chief_Joe
(IF I laugh, would that be construed as bashing PFC Lynch, or would my laughter reflect the sadness of the whole darn situation?).
50 posted on 09/17/2003 8:28:37 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks ("I guess we got so focused on the rubber penis we didn't even pay attention to what he was saying.")
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