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507th Weapons Records Missing
El Paso Times | 17 Sept. 2003 | Laura Cruz

Posted on 09/17/2003 11:23:07 AM PDT by Lurker

507th weapon records gone

Laura Cruz
El Paso Times

The ambush

Killed

# Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, El Paso.

# Chief Warrant Officer 2 Johnny Villareal Mata, Pecos.

# Spc. Jamaal R. Addison, Roswell, Ga.

# Pfc. Howard Johnson II, Mobile, Ala.

# Spc. James Kiehl, Comfort, Texas.

# Pvt. Brandon Sloan, Bedford Heights, Ohio.

# Pfc. Lori Piestewa, Tuba City, Ariz.

# Sgt. Donald R. Walters, Salem, Ore.

# Master Sgt. Robert J. Dowdy, Cleveland.

# Pfc. Edward Anguiano of the 3rd Forward Support Battalion.

# Sgt. George Buggs of the 3rd Forward Support Battalion.

Captured

# Spc. Edgar Hernandez, Alton, Texas.

# Spc. Joseph Hudson, Alamogordo.

# Spc. Shoshana Johnson, El Paso.

# Pfc. Patrick Miller, Walter, Kan.

# Sgt. James Joseph Riley, Pennsauken, N.J.

# Pfc. Jessica Lynch, Palestine, W.Va.

# Piestewa died while a prisoner.

The U.S. Army on Tuesday revealed that all records and documents about the weapons that jammed during the March 23 ambush that led to the death of nine Fort Bliss soldiers were destroyed in the Iraqi attack and that there is no way to trace the weapons' histories.

The Army, responding to an El Paso Times request under the Freedom of Information Act, said any official information about the weapons used by Fort Bliss' 507th Maintenance Company was lost on a supply truck taken into combat.

An official report on the ambush near Nasiriyah said that several weapons, including M-16s, M249 Squad Automatic Weapons and a .50-caliber machine gun, jammed or failed to operate properly during the firefight.

The disclosure that the records were lost shocked, bewildered and further angered relatives of soldiers who were killed in the early morning ambush, which is among the worst losses for the U.S. military during Operation Iraqi Freedom. In addition to the nine Fort Bliss soldiers killed, two from the 3rd Forward Support Battalion were killed, five soldiers were wounded, and seven soldiers were taken prisoner.

"Capt. Troy King (507th commander) stated that he does not have any historical data on weapons involved in the enemy contact," June Bates, Fort Bliss freedom of information officer, said in a written response. "He lost his motorpool truck and all documentation."

Bates said King's records, which were kept in the motor pool, were stored in his supply truck, which was also "involved in the enemy contact."

The official 507th report, which was released by the Army on July 17, suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

Nancili Mata, the widow of Chief Warrant Officer 2 Johnny Villareal Mata, who was killed in the ambush, said she was shocked to learn that no duplicate records were kept on the weapons.

"They should have copies here. It doesn't sound right," she said. "They are blaming the soldiers for not keeping their weapons clean, but my husband knew better than that. He did everything right."

Arlene Walters, mother of Sgt. Donald R. Walters, who died in the attack and would have celebrated his 34th birthday Tuesday, said her son was dedicated to his job and to details. She said she finds it hard to believe that her son's weapon wasn't kept clean.

"He kept his guns as clean as can be," she said. "He even talked to his dad about it."

Because the circumstances surrounding the death of Walters are unclear, his parents continue to ask questions about anything involving their son, including the history of his weapon.

"Nothing surprises me anymore, but what I don't understand is why would you carry that kind of information into a battlefield," Arlene Walters asked. "It seems to me that if those weapons were issued out at Fort Bliss, then the records should have stayed at Fort Bliss."

Ruben Estrella, father of 18-year-old Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, from El Paso, said he no longer believes anything the Army tells him.

"They told me that my son was shot in the head, and now they are saying that he was struck by a tank," he said. "I think the Army or the government is hiding something, but sooner or later the truth will be told."

Fort Bliss responds

The El Paso Times had requested the history of 31 weapons the soldiers carried during the ambush. The request sought information about weapon repairs, the weapons' ages, and the manufacturer and condition of each weapon assigned to the 507th soldiers involved in the attack.

Officials at the Department of Defense referred all questions to Fort Bliss officials.

Jean Offutt, Fort Bliss spokeswoman, said that taking all data regarding a company's weapons into battle is standard practice.

"When we deployed, all our active-duty soldiers had to take their documents with them because we mobilized a lot of reservists who lived in the emptied barracks," Offutt said. "So all of their personnel files as well as files on weapons were taken with them."

Because personnel files were lost in the ambush and no duplicates exist, the 507th is now trying to re-create the information. Also, Offutt said, some of the weapons the 507th used haven't been recovered.

"But shortly before the soldiers deployed, all of the weapons were certified and serviceable," Offutt said. "The weapons were fired on the firing range before they deployed."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 507th; ohbrother
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Humm.

L

1 posted on 09/17/2003 11:23:10 AM PDT by Lurker
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To: Lurker
The weapons were not defective--only the soldiers' maintenance of those weapons.
2 posted on 09/17/2003 11:24:18 AM PDT by Poohbah ("[Expletive deleted] 'em if they can't take a joke!" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: Poohbah
The weapons were not defective--only the soldiers' maintenance of those weapons.
And you know that how?
3 posted on 09/17/2003 11:25:48 AM PDT by drjimmy
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To: drjimmy
I've fired the M16, M203, and M249 during my service in the USMC. They will operate properly if they are maintained properly.
4 posted on 09/17/2003 11:26:50 AM PDT by Poohbah ("[Expletive deleted] 'em if they can't take a joke!" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: Poohbah
Something smells funny here. This "lost records" excuse is an old tired yarn.
5 posted on 09/17/2003 11:26:59 AM PDT by Rusty Shackelford
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To: drjimmy
The weapons were not defective--only the soldiers' maintenance of those weapons. And you know that how?

Before ANY patrol/movement with possible contact to the enemy you should
1) clean your weapon
2) do a function check on the same weapon.

Anything less is criminally negligent by any trooper, marine or NCO running them.

6 posted on 09/17/2003 11:30:54 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Islam : totalitarian political ideology / meme cloaked under the cover of religion)
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To: drjimmy
Jamming is just a term meaning the rifle would not work properly. Usually has to do with a feed problem. If the weapon is dirty at all, any problems is has will be magnified.

The M-16, the SAW and the M-60 all must be cleaned and maintained after each use. Some of these weapons are from the Vietnam era and have multiple sources of ware that will cause the weapons to fail if allowed to get dirty.

If you are in a non-direct combat unit, you are not focused on your weapon and don't have the experience of it jamming after an day of hard use.

I will bet that they were issued weapons that were rejects from an infantry unit. This is why the loss of the records is important to saving careers.
7 posted on 09/17/2003 11:32:58 AM PDT by Rusty Shackelford
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To: Poohbah
The CO of that unit should be relieved of command.

L

8 posted on 09/17/2003 11:32:58 AM PDT by Lurker ("To expect the government to save you is to be a bystander in your own fate." Mark Steyn)
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To: drjimmy
Those weapons are reliable, but like any other mechanical object, they need to be maintained.

"Ash 'n Trash" units are notorious for neglecting their personal weapons.

9 posted on 09/17/2003 11:37:22 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (Stir the pot...don't let anything settle to the bottom where the lawyers can feed off of it!)
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To: Rusty Shackelford
Maintenance logs on weapons are a low level document that follows the unit on deployment. No duplicates are kept. There would be no purpose to trying to set up a central duplicate file, because the records are used by the unit to keep track of routine maintenance.

My recollection is that this unit had been on road march from Kuwait over 24 hours, much of it in a sandstorm. Unless they were keeping their weapons wrapped in plastic or cleaned them shortly before the engagement they were likely fouled just from the trip.

10 posted on 09/17/2003 11:38:53 AM PDT by colorado tanker (USA - taking out the world's trash since 1776)
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To: Lurker
So one guy's civilian wife says, "There must be copies here." and everybody's supposed to say, "Sure they do." Bullshit. Small arms maintenance records are recorded on small slips of paper and kept with the maintenance/armorers vehicle. Even if they had not been destroyed, they wouldn't show who cleaned what, and when. Military wives should STFU about military matters and keep the kids fed. Many of these wives are starting to go directly to the press, hidering our war effort. Loss of base priveleges would be a good start for some of them.
11 posted on 09/17/2003 11:42:48 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Lurker
We had problems with the M-16s during DESERT SHIELD, but it was because we weren't using the correct lube. Once we started using the proper gun oil they worked fine, even when dirty.
12 posted on 09/17/2003 11:47:43 AM PDT by mbynack
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To: Lurker
The "records" at unit level would consist of a DD314 which only records the date of TM specified services and/or lubes performed and scheduled. With weapons and other small items (masks, heaters, stoves, etc) many items can be recorded on the same DD314, i.e. 200 M16's would be one entry for an annual inspection.
13 posted on 09/17/2003 11:48:59 AM PDT by Feckless
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To: Lurker
"They are blaming the soldiers for not keeping their weapons clean, but my husband knew better than that. He did everything right."

Arlene Walters, mother of Sgt. Donald R. Walters, who died in the attack and would have celebrated his 34th birthday Tuesday, said her son was dedicated to his job and to details. She said she finds it hard to believe that her son's weapon wasn't kept clean."He kept his guns as clean as can be," she said. "He even talked to his dad about it."

Based on my experience those weapons probably had not been cleaned prior to the order to depart kuwait. If they had been most if not all would have worked. Remember that the front line troops also marched from Kuwait right before them and we have heard nothing of entire 3ID or Marine units with large numbers of weapons failures.

14 posted on 09/17/2003 11:48:59 AM PDT by Ispy4u (Again ignoring #3Fan)
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To: SJSAMPLE
I think this Army wife is asking legit questions...If I thought the Army was lying to me, you bet I would persue it.....
15 posted on 09/17/2003 11:49:37 AM PDT by mystery-ak (Happy Birthday, Mike...wish you were here.)
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To: SJSAMPLE
Yep. In my experience routine weapons cleaning was not logged.
16 posted on 09/17/2003 11:50:22 AM PDT by colorado tanker (USA - taking out the world's trash since 1776)
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To: Redleg Duke
"Ash 'n Trash" units are notorious for neglecting their personal weapons.

Not just weapons, but all their equipment. Their idea of the acronym PMCS is not "Preventative Maintenance Checks and Services. They think it stands for"

Park [the]
Mother [and]
Call [the]
Shop.

17 posted on 09/17/2003 11:53:46 AM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Clone Ann Coulter, the woman sent by God)
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To: colorado tanker
Unless they were keeping their weapons wrapped in plastic or cleaned them shortly before the engagement they were likely fouled just from the trip.

Put a condom on the tip and a strip of duct tape over the ejection port and you're good to go for any sandstorm.

18 posted on 09/17/2003 11:53:51 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Islam : totalitarian political ideology / meme cloaked under the cover of religion)
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To: Centurion2000
What are the chances that a rear echelon maintence unit would do that? I mean, those guys were so far to the rear I never would have heard of them, much less see them. If not for bad navigation they never would have been near the fighting.
19 posted on 09/17/2003 11:58:23 AM PDT by colorado tanker (USA - taking out the world's trash since 1776)
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To: Lurker
>>The CO of that unit should be relieved of command.

Only if you believe what you read in the papers. Linda Cruz could be the pen name for Jason Blair. It's my understanding that they got lost and ambushed by Iraqi irregulars, "militia", since the Iraqi Regular Army isn't worth a picture (sic) of warm urine. The result was approximately 500 milliMogadishu, on the DiGenova scale.

Surrounded by a numerically superior force firing from cover, they eventually ran of ammunition and were all killed or captured. These things will happen when you get separated and isolated, especially lightly armed support troops. If all or many of their weapons were so poorly maintained they failed to operate, the commander should be court-martialed for gross dereliction of duty. If one confused unit made a wrong turn, as units will inevitably do, they need to take some lessons learned and move on.

20 posted on 09/17/2003 12:00:02 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Uday and Qusay and Idi-ay are ead-day)
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