Johnson had JFK Killed: new book

John Gibson Show ^ | 9/22/03 | Ed in NJ

[Ed_in_NJ]

Sorry to be so short on facts, but a new book ("Blood Money") charges LBJ with ordering the JFK hit.

The author is the former business partner of the man he accuses of setting it up (??? Clark), and claims there is no doubt in his mind as to the truth of the allegation.

Apparently LBJ was about to be indicted on another murder charge, and saw his ascendency to POTUS as his way out.

[Ichneumon]

Oswald was not a competent shooter, and I'm not quoting anything from the JFK movie simply because I haven't seen the thing.

Then who *are* you quoting?

The Manlicher Carcano is an innacurate piece of crap. Anyone who has ever fired that weapon can tell you that.

It's not the finest rifle out there, surely, but are you trying to tell us that it's so inaccurate that one could not even hit a man-sized target with it at 100 yards using a 4x scope and a bench rest? Pull the other leg now...

Oswald couldn't hit a stationary target at 200 Meters with an extremely accurate weapon (The M14).

Where'd you get *that* nonsense?

He [Oswald] was also trained in the use of the M1 rifle (2). On December 21, 1956, after three weeks of training, he shot 212, two points over the score required for a "sharpshooter" qualification, the second highest in the Marine Corps (3). Such a score indicated that from a standing position, he could hit a ten-inch bulls-eye, from a minimum of 200 yards, eight times out of ten (4).

[...] Those in charge of the marksmanship branch who were familiar with Oswald's record praised his ability and said he was easily capable of carrying out the JFK assassination. It "was an easy shot for a man with the equipment he had and his ability," said Sgt. [James] Zahm [the NCO in charge of the marksmanship training unit]. Major Eugene Anderson, of the marskmanship branch, said the assassination shots "were not particularly difficult" and that, based on his Marine record, "Oswald had full capabilities to make this shot."

-- "Case Closed", Gerald Posner, p. 20.

(2) Testimony of Maj. Eugene Anderson, WC Vol. XI, p. 302.
(3) Testimony of Lt. Col. Allison Folsom, WC Vol. VIII, p. 304.
(4) Testimony of Lt. Col. Donovan, WC Vol. VIII, p. 296.

There's no way in hell that he's going to hit a moving target 6 floors below him on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or any other shot unless he's using a MK19 40MM Grenade launcher that he can then use the impact of the rounds to walk it into his target.

Unless you're going to try to argue that no Marine would be able to hit a man-sized target at 100 yards with a 4X scope and a bench rest, you're just being rididulous here.

If you wish to believe the Fairy Tale that the Warren Commission fostered on this country then be my guest, it's well within your rights. But don't tell me that Oswald made that shot. He didn't, it was almost mathematically impossible for him to do the shooting based on his level of skill.

Wow, I didn't realize that Marines who qualifed as "sharpshooter" grade sucked so badly at shooting. I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the tip.

[Leatherneck_MT]

Have you ever fired a Mannlicher Carcano? I have

Answer me that question. Iron sights or scope I care not. Have you ever fired one?

Oswald qualed as a Sharpshooter in Boot Camp. That was the best he ever did. During the remaining portions of his term in he went Unq 2 out of 4 times (Unqualified). His best performance (as most are) was in Boot Camp.

What's mathematically impossible about a 5 inch group at 88 yards from a Marginal to poor shooter? Alot is mathematically impossible under those circumstances.

You are trying to say that he performed substandardly during at least half of his military career and then suddenly on the day the president is assassinated he can shoot like he was born with a rifle in his hands? Is that what you are trying to foster here?

A 5 inch group at 88 yards On a stationary target is not difficult for a good shooter. For someone of Oswald's skill it was difficult at best. Add elevation and motion and it becomes near impossible.

The man didn't have the skill and it takes skill to kill at a distance with a rifle.

[Shooter 2.5]

You're counting entrance and exit wounds as two wounds?

Where do you get that?

Do you think a 161 grain bullet going 2000 feet a second will stop just because it hit four inches of flesh?

[Shooter 2.5]

I think what you just said was:

Marines can't shoot and military ammunition bounces off of people.

[O Neill]

More hard facts...

Dallas Post Office...November 1963....

====================

There is nothing like a little white lie to oil the wheels of commerce and the people at Klein's were not above spicing up their marketing copy with a few harmless untruths. The banner on their full page spread in the February 1963 issue of the American Rifleman magazine proclaimed: RECEIVED TOO LATE FOR THE HUNTING SEASON....Klein's loss is your gain!

KLEIN'S RECEIVE AN ORDER FROM DALLAS

On 13th March 1963, Klein's received an envelope containing a small order slip clipped from their full-page advertisement in the February issue of American Rifleman. Mr A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas, had enclosed a US Postal Money Order no. 2,202,130,462 to the value of $21.45 in payment for one Mannlicher Carcano 6.5MM Carbine with scope as advertised with reference no. C20-T750 priced at $19.95 with an additional $1.50 postage and handling. Though the ad offered ammunition and a clip as added extras Mr Hidell did not order either.

On March 20th 1963, Klein's dispatched a Mannlicher Carcano, apparently bearing the serial no. C2766, to the order of Mr Hidell, whose postal address was P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas.

The case against Lee Harvey Oswald depends entirely upon establishing a solid chain of evidence that links him to the Mannlicher Carcano dispatched by Klein's to the order of A. Hidell and places him (Oswald) on the 6th floor of the TSBD with that weapon at 12:30 PM on November 22nd 1963. It will become clear that no such chain of evidence exists.

Lee Harvey Oswald rented Dallas Post Box 2915 on October 9th 1962 using his own name. Effectively, the address A. Hidell, PO Box 2915, never existed. In order to rent a post box, Oswald was required to fill out Form 1093 (Application for Post Office Box). This was a multi-part form. Part 3 of the application form included a section where the applicant could nominate other persons authorized to collect mail from that particular box. Harry D. Holmes, Dallas Postal Inspector, [also moonlighting as an FBI Informant] told the WC that:

"Form 1093 includes a place for name of person entitled to receive mail through the box other than the applicant himself."

The ability of Lee Harvey Oswald to collect a package addressed to A. Hidell at P.O. Box 2915 depends entirely upon A. Hidell being listed as an authorized person in Part 3 of Oswald's application. It should have been an easy matter to verify this by reference to Part 3 of Oswald's application but, as Postal Inspector Harry Holmes told the WC, Part 3 had been destroyed:

"...when the box has been closed, Postal Regulations require that they tear off Part 3 and throw it away."

Box 2915 had been closed by Oswald on May 14th 1963.

Fortunately, Postal Inspector Holmes is not the final authority on Postal Regulations. The Postal Manual, Section 846.53b, states quite unequivocally that "Part 3 of the box rental application, identifying persons other than the applicant authorized to receive mail must be retained for 2 years after the box is closed."

Harry D. Holmes lied about postal procedures and the WC accepted that lie as fact.

A week after the assassination Harry D. Holmes was quoted in a New York Times article where he stated:

"No one other than Oswald was authorized to receive mail at that box".

Holmes could not have made this statement unless he had seen Part 3 of Oswald's application form after the assassination.

Further confirmation that Part 3 of Oswald's application form existed after the assassination and that A. Hidell was not an authorized nominee can be found in the Warren Report (WR). To refute claims made by writer Thomas G. Buchanan in his book "Who Killed Kennedy?", the FBI produced a document that specifically addressed 32 different allegations made by Buchanan. Published in the WR, this document CE 2585, contained the following:

12. CLAIM: The Post Office in Dallas to which Oswald had the rifle mailed was kept both under his name and that of A. Hidell.

INVESTIGATION: Our investigation has revealed that Oswald did not indicate on his application that others, including an A. Hidell, would receive mail through the box in question, which was Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas.

As with Harry D. Holmes revelations to the New York Times, the FBI could not have made this determination unless they had seen Part 3 of Oswald's application form. The only conclusion it is possible to draw from this information is that Part 3 of Oswald's application still existed after John F. Kennedy was assassinated and that Harry D. Holmes and the FBI knew as much. Harry Holmes' story that Postal Regulations required Part 3 of the form to be destroyed when the box is closed was an act of perjury that attempted to hide the fact that an important piece of evidence had been destroyed sometime after the assassination.

It cannot be stated strongly enough that Part 3 of Oswald's application form is the one document that underpins the entire chain of evidence linking Oswald to the Carcano and the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. If A. Hidell was authorized to collect mail at Post Box 2915, then Oswald could have taken delivery of the Carcano by masquerading as Hidell. If A. Hidell was not authorized to collect mail at that box then Oswald would not have been able to take delivery of the Carcano package.

In practice, when the Carcano package addressed to A. Hidell at Box 2915 was received, Post Office staff would have checked the appropriate documentation. They would have noted that Box 2915 was rented in the name of Oswald and that A. Hidell was not authorized to collect mail. An additional check may have been made to establish if A. Hidell was a previous renter of Box 2915 who had left a forwarding address. In the event that these checks proved negative the Carcano package would have been returned to sender.

Even exercising great generosity of spirit it is difficult to see any explanation for the destruction of Part 3 of the Oswald application form other than to sustain a false chain of evidence. The WC accepted as fact the sworn testimony of Harry D. Holmes that Part 3 of the form had been destroyed legitimately in line with Postal Regulations. In addition, they allowed Holmes to create a false mechanism by which Oswald could still have collected the Carcano package. This was typical of the "belts and braces" approach the WC used to cover all angles.

Holmes claimed that when a package was received, a notice would be placed in the relevant box to advise the holder that a package was waiting to be collected. This would be done, Holmes claimed, regardless of who the package was addressed to, authorized or not. Thereafter, the holder of the box would only have to produce the notice at the collection window to take delivery of the package. Possession of the notice was deemed to be proof of entitlement.

This is how the WC created the foundations of the chain of evidence linking Oswald to the Carcano. It is ironic that the WR could publish the testimony of Holmes claiming that Part 3 of Oswald's application form had been destroyed and the FBI document, CE 2585, proving it had not.

All evidence is not equal and in seeking to take a view it is necessary to decide what weight can be placed on any particular piece of evidence. The evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald could not have taken delivery of the Carcano package by any known official means is very strong indeed. It is strengthened even more by the knowledge that Harry D. Holmes offered perjured testimony and that a crucial piece of evidence, Part 3 of the Oswald's application form, was destroyed during the post-assassination period.

I think the only plausible interpretation of the facts is that Oswald could not, and did not, take possession of the Carcano package. To sustain the illusion that Oswald did collect the Carcano package, vital evidence was destroyed and additional evidence was fabricated.

The Post Box evidence is not the only evidence the WR offers to link Oswald to the Carcano. Other evidence includes the infamous "backyard photographs", the testimony of the DeMohrenschildts and Marina Oswald, the mysterious contents of the brown paper bag Oswald is alleged to have carried into the TSBD on the day of the assassination, the analysis of the handwriting on the Klein's order slip and the apparent linkage between Oswald and the A. Hidell alias.

====================

Soooooo...seems our Marxist-Leninist patsy never even OWNED a crappy Mannlicher-Carcano rifle! He certainly didn't own any of the paraphernalia normally associated with such ownership...like cleaning kits or ammunition.

The officers who supposedly FOUND the rifle in the TSBD 'Sniper's Nest' identified it as a 'Mauser' while the FBI had simultaneously SET THE FIX to Oswald with a Mannlicher-Carcano! Imagine the conversation..."NO, you idiot, it was a Mannlicher-Carcano...tell them it was a Mannlicher-Carcano!!" Reports had to be destroyed...different shell casings placed in the Evidence Room...more witnesses killed...the Dallas Police must have been so busy planting & substituting evidence that weekend, it's no wonder Ruby got into the garage to off Oswald. By Sunday, Oswald HAD to be eliminated...he didn't know much, but what he did know was way TOO much.

[The KG9 Kid]

Yes, I have fired a M91 Mannlicher-Carcano using decent ammunition. They shoot just fine, stand with their contemporaries in terms of accuracy, and were the Italian service rifle for almost fifty years -- there are lots of dead Ethiopians to show for it's lethality. The best ones made were from the time when Oswald's was created.

I collect milsurp C&R rifles. I have shot or owned just about all of them at various times. I still have most of them. I believe that Oswald could have had similar satisfactory results with a Japanese 'Last Ditch' rifle mounted with a 4x telescope or even a Ruger Mini-14.

You're trying to create a false-dilemma by insisting that the shot made by Oswald was such that he needed to be born with a rifle in his hands to make that shot and that his weapon was a heap.

I reject that notion. He did miss once, after all.

If it's so 'mathematically-impossible', let's see your math.

[tpaine]

You are invited to explain what you imagine would have to have been "magic" about shot #2.
129 -Ichneumon-



Post your evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged. -- Go for it.

Unless you can do so, the whole Oswald as lone gunman theory is unproven speculation. -- Which is the real 'case closed'.

[Shooter 2.5]

Even I would concede that with a Mini-14 he could have made those shots.

As long as he fired less than ten shots. ;)


Too bad Oswald didn't use a scoped revolver.

[Ichneumon]

Sorry, I don't answer questions from people who pose them as a substitute for answering *my* questions to them.

Answer my question, then I'll be glad to address yours. Until then, I will consider you someone who has no real interest in having an actual two-sided discussion.

[Ichneumon]

In your response you forgot to address Shooter2.5's other question: "Where do you get the idea the second bullet was 'almost perfect condition'?" Please do so.

[Ichneumon]

I'll have to see that before I'll believe it.

Well then, feel free to stage your own recreation.

[Oztrich Boy]

The officers who supposedly FOUND the rifle in the TSBD 'Sniper's Nest' identified it as a 'Mauser'

And we all know no cop has ever made a mistake.
But they were sort of right. The Carcano (aka. Mauser Paravicino) used the Mauser bolt action so could be loosely described as a 'Mauser'.

Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (the only "multiple shooter theory" book worth a d@mn) has photos of the rifle as discovered, and being carried out of the building. And it's a Mannlicher-Carcano.

[tpaine]

You are invited to explain what you imagine would have to have been "magic" about shot #2.
129 -Ichneumon-


[I don't imagine ~any~ shot as 'magical']

Post your evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged. -- Go for it.

Unless you can do so, the whole Oswald as lone gunman theory is unproven speculation. -- Which is the real 'case closed'.
157 -tpaine-


Sorry, I don't answer questions from people who pose them as a substitute for answering *my* questions to them.

Answer my question, then I'll be glad to address yours. Until then, I will consider you someone who has no real interest in having an actual two-sided discussion.
-Ichneumon-


I don't agree that what you claim was the #2 shot was a 'magic bullet'..

Thus I cannot explain why you imagine it could have been shot #2 that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland..
To me this was pure speculation by the WC.
-- Say it isn't so. - Post your evidence.

[Shooter 2.5]

I'll bet they have no idea what the difference between a Carcano and a Mauser really is.

That includes the ones who claim they shot one.

[O Neill]

And we all know no cop has ever made a mistake.

This is just the FIRST mistake (btw, the officers who FOUND the rifle in the TSBD, didn't bother to MARK it in any way for later identification...Mistake #2). By the time you get through the Warren Report, there will be DOZENS of mistakes to accept...crucial witnesses will die or disappear...crucial questions will NOT be asked by highly experienced prosecutors, FBI...evidence altered...or destroyed and on & on.

==========================

PROBLEMS WITH THE CARCANO

The Carcano Oswald allegedly ordered from Klein's is not the same as the one entered into evidence by the WC. A coupon clipped from the February 1, 1963 issue [of American Rifleman, supposedly used by Oswald to order the rifle, shows a Carcano, order number, C20-T750, measuring 36 inches. The rifle entered into evidence, as CE 139 is 39 inches long. Interestingly, the Klein's advertisement entered into evidence by the WC is for a Carcano of the right length but comes from the November 1963 issue of Field and Stream. This ad was offered to the WC by the ubiquitous Postal Inspector Harry Holmes! (47)

This might be as good a time as any to mention that Harry D. Holmes was more than just a Postal Inspector. In addition to his postal duties, Holmes was an FBI informant. He appeared to have an uncanny knack of being in crucial places at crucial times during the day of the assassination and on subsequent days. Odd though it may seem, he also took part in the interrogation of Oswald at the DPD. (48)

There is a lesser-known problem relating to the Carcano that I believe to be significant. At the time it was recovered C2766 was said to be in generally poor condition with the firing pin in particularly precarious condition due to rusting. It was fitted with a scope that had to be fitted with shims to be used accurately. The problem here is that, according to the evidence, C2766 had only been in Oswald's possession for 8 months. It is claimed that during most of this 8 months the rifle was wrapped in an old rug. How exactly does a reconditioned rifle with a new, professionally fitted scope, get into such a poor condition in just 8 months? (49)

In contrast to all this evidence suggesting that Oswald had purchased C2766 there was a total absence of any evidence that he ever bought the Western Cartridge Company ammunition that was allegedly used in the assassination. Only 4 bullets were apparently found at the scene, 3 in the form of spent shells and 1 live round in the rifle. Despite thorough searches of property and premises associated with Oswald no ammunition was ever found.

This particular ammunition was part of a consignment of 4 million rounds made by the Western Cartridge Company of Alton, Illinois and shipped it 4 lots numbered 6000 - 6003. The ammunition was apparently purchased by the US Army to supply allies but in reality it was purchased by the CIA for use in the weapon provided to the Cuban rebels being trained for the abortive Bay of Pigs invasion. Part of the consignment found its way on to the surplus market and was available in Dallas. The owners of gun shops stocking this ammunition were questioned but did not recall selling any to Oswald or anyone resembling Oswald.

In fact, investigators were unable to find any of the normal paraphernalia one might expect to find in the possession of a gun owner such as lubricating oil and cleaning kit.

This raises another dilemma. The ammunition allegedly found at the TSBD had marks consistent with it having been chambered more than once. The implication of these marks is that the shells may well have been fired previously, the empty shells collected and then reloaded. Another possibility is that the shells were fired in another rifle and then loaded into C2766 to produce forensic evidence. (50)

Needless to say, Oswald did not appear to own any of the equipment necessary to reload ammunition. In Dallas, 2 gun shops stocked Western Cartridge Company 6.5mm ammunition but only one of these reloaded bullets with the same type of hunting load used in the suspect bullets. He was John Masen, a right-wing extremist and member of the notorious Minutemen organization and a man with a history of illegal arms dealing. Perhaps the most significant thing about Masen is that he bore an uncanny physical resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald. (51)

===========================

You got a lot of 'splainin' to do, Lucy!

[Tares]

Please cite the source of the text you posted in posts 155 and 165.

[Shooter 2.5]

Marina testified Oswald worked the bolt on the rifle for practice. There isn't anything unusual about using live ammo to simulate chambering and unchambering.

The guy didn't have any cleaning equipment and then you're wondering why a rifle became in poor condition in 8 months?

Get your story straight.

Nothing on your "odd trigger pull"?

[tpaine]

You got a lot of 'splainin' to do --
-O Neill-


Isn't it amazing how big bros supporters have the hardly waits to 'explain' away the easily arguable minutiae about JFKs shooting, -- but can't address the Reports glaring errors?

--- The challenge:

Can anyone post convincing evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged?

The Warren Commission could not, thus the Oswald as lone gunman theory fell apart.

[Tares]

Can anyone post convincing evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged?

Already done. Read the link in post 146.

[tpaine]

'Convincing evidence' are the key words.

McAdams stuff has convinced no one. He simply dismisses everyone else as "silly", then rehashes the WC arguments, arguments well refuted by hundreds of other reputable researchers.


--- The Kennedy Assassination ---
By John McAdams

"He didn't even have the satisfaction of being killed for civil rights . . . . It's — it had to be some silly little Communist." — Jackie Kennedy, on hearing that a leftist had been arrested for her husband's murder.


It's the most controversial case in modern American history. Did Lee Harvey Oswald kill John Kennedy by himself, or did a conspiracy do it? And if a conspiracy did it, did the conspiracy include Oswald?
If you are like most Americans, you believe that a conspiracy killed Kennedy. And if you are like most Americans, you have heard a vast number of bogus factoids about the case.
This web site is dedicated to debunking the mass of misinformation and disinformation surrounding the murder of JFK.
If you are believer in Oswald as a lone gunman, you are likely to enjoy this web site, since most of that misinformation and disinformation has come from conspiracists.

But if you are a sophisticated conspiracist, you likely understand that the mass of silly nonsense in conspiracy books and documentaries does no service to the cause of truth in the assassination, and simply buries the "case for conspiracy" under layers of bunk

[Tares]

McAdams stuff has convinced no one.

So you say. Rather than relying on your opinion, interested readers can read the article for themselves and decide whether or not the single bullet theory holds up to the critics.

The Single Bullet Theory.

[OESY]

The simplest answer is the right answer. Who benefited most from Kennedy's death? LBJ.

And here I thought the simplest brother benefited the most. Ted Kennedy became de Kingfish of the Family is his father's eyes, and later de Kingfish of the Senate -- with no famous (and more conservative) brothers to challenge his powers.

[O Neill]

Please cite the source of the text you posted in posts 155 and 165.

Those were 2 different sources. Shortly after I posted them, a guy from COMCAST came by & said I'd won Internet Cable for life! He set me all up & then...pooof!...the sources were GONE! Strange...but I'll be okay, now...

[O Neill]

Nothing on your "odd trigger pull"?

I’ve come around to your point of view, the expert testimony regarding an ‘odd trigger pull’ is not really relevant. The hard facts show that the rusty, dilapidated rifle offered to the Warren Commission was never fired by Oswald, merely planted by the FBI/Dallas PD to support the ‘A. Hidell’ mail order cover story.

[tpaine]

Indeed they can... They can also see your inablity to meet the challenge with any convincing evidence..

JFK's assassination remains an open case..

[tpaine]

Indeed, wise comment; "the expert testimony regarding an 'odd trigger pull' is not really relevant."

-- After all, you can ask at any gun shop to establish that..

[rattrap]

[8mmMauser]

I was in Texas stationed north of there when it happened and remember sarcastic LBJ jokes way back then, like LBJ telling authorities he wanted his rifle back after they took it from Oswald.

Looked obvious to lots of us at the time it happened.

[Ed_in_NJ]

Let me guess: The Warren Commission at the grassy knoll?

[rattrap]

&%$* NO MAN!!!

he was shot by vong from reticuli seven, after having flown to texas from dreamland in his black helicopter. sheeeeesssh, get your facts straight. :-P

[Shooter 2.5]

Good. We're making progress.

Now tell me why a rusty but functional firing pin is relevant to the case.

Why is it a factor to your argument?

[mlo]

And yes, there was another shooter on the grassy knoll; several lines of evidence show this conclusively.

Which lines would those be?

[boris]

"Which lines would those be?"

See the documentary The Men Who Killed Kennedy.

I will briefly summarize three key elements:

1. Sworn testimony of a witness (deaf/mute, as I recall) who witnessed a shooter BEHIND the grassy knoll.
2. Photo evidence which clearly shows a man aiming a rifle from behind the fence at the rear of the grassy knoll.
3. Sworn testimony from a member of the military who heard a shot, heard the bullet whiz past his ear and hit the ground.

Only minor stuff like that...

--Boris

[tpaine]

--- The challenge:

Can anyone post convincing evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged?

The Warren Commission could not, thus the Oswald as lone gunman theory fell apart.

[mlo]

Not everything you hear, especially on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" is true. Evidence must be evaluated.

1. Sworn testimony of a witness (deaf/mute, as I recall) who witnessed a shooter BEHIND the grassy knoll.

Ed Hoffman. Did not tell this story at the time, even though he did report to the FBI and the DPD. He started adding things to his story years later and has continued to add to it over the decades. His father and brother both said Ed had a tendency to distort the facts.

2. Photo evidence which clearly shows a man aiming a rifle from behind the fence at the rear of the grassy knoll.

"Badgeman". "Clearly" is a gross overstatement. Nobody takes this seriously any more. It does not stand up to critical scrutiny. It's a matter of seeing a pattern in a random collection of light and dark patches, like a Rorschach test.

3. Sworn testimony from a member of the military who heard a shot, heard the bullet whiz past his ear and hit the ground.

Gordon Arnold. His testimony isn't "sworn", and it isn't true. Problem is that Gordon wasn't there. There are photos of the area he claimed to be in. He also has changed his story over time when problems with it were pointed out. There are people who've "come forward" about some aspect of this case during the last 40 years who've just made up things. They get attention from it, and probably a few of them are disturbed enough to believe their own stories. They always trip up on some details that give them away. You can't believe everything you hear. This particular program is notoriously bad, even among conspiracy theorists. It is filled with false information.

[mlo]

Can anyone post convincing evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged?

It wasn't "virtually undamaged". The Warren Commission didn't insist that it was shot #2. If you clarify the question maybe someone will answer it.

[tpaine]

Can anyone post convincing evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged?
-tpaine-


It wasn't "virtually undamaged". The Warren Commission didn't insist that it was shot #2. If you clarify the question maybe someone will answer it.
-mio-


I suggest you talk to 'ichy', your fellow authority, and get your stories straight... -- Here's his claim about shot #2:



No further mentions of magic bullets will be allowed, as they cannot be accounted for in the case closed mind..
128 -tpaine-

You are invited to explain what you imagine would have to have been "magic" about shot #2. Note: If you're wise, you won't use the terms "pristine" or "right-angle turn", as both are incredibly easy to debunk and will only make you look foolishly unaware of the facts you're attempting to opine about. Go for it.
129 -ichy-


Replies
Address:http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/987270/replies?comment=129

[tpaine]

NARA | JFK Assassination Records | Warren Commission Report Chapter 3
Address:http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/warren_commission/warren_commission_report_chapter3.html

Refered lines in Chapter 3, as per the reference numbers..

-264- Examination of the Zapruder motion picture camera by the FBI established that 18.8 pictures or frames were taken each second, and therefore, the timing of certain events could be calculated by allowing 1/18.8 seconds for the action depicted from one frame to the next.

-264-
-266- Tests of the assassin's rifle disclosed that at least 2.8 seconds were required between shots.-266-

-346- The possibility that the second shot missed is consistent with the elapsed time between the two shots that hit their mark. From the timing evidenced by the Zapruder films, there was an interval of from 4.8 to 5.6 seconds between the shot which struck President Kennedy's neck (between frames 210 to 225) and the shot which struck his head at frame 813.
-346-

Lets see if the math works. -- There are 602 frames between 210 & 813..
- Whoops, must be a mis-print , -- let's try frame 313, which makes 103 frames...
-- 103 frames divided by 18.8 frames per second, equals 5.48 seconds, -- max time avail for two bolt cycles and 3 shots..

Thus, -- if shot #1 hits JFK's back at frame 210, then shot #2 misses, and shot #3 hits at frame 313 that equals 3 shots. -- 2.8 seconds for each bolt cycle/aim/fire; for a total of 5.6 seconds..

--- So ~whoops~ again, line 266 must have another mis-print, and really meant it takes 2.3 seconds to cycle the action, aim & fire.
---- Unless the 1st shot was taken, and missed, 43 frames [2.3 seconds] ~before~ frame 210, - at 173 -, when the limo was behind the tree.

-- Or, the 3rd shot missed completely, 2.3 seconds ~after~ JFK's head exploded.
It becomes apparent that shot #2 had to be the shot that 'missed' according to the Warren Reports own timeline, ~if~, big IF, the single bullet theory is to be considered convincing.

Which leaves the issue back in the laps of the re-creators of the actions taken.. Could LHO have aimed & fired 3 shots in 5.48 seconds?

Sounds like magic to me. Most real shooters over the years have agreed. The government/media re-enactments have been so staged as to be unconvincing.

[Shooter 2.5]

Frame by Frame breakdown of the Zapruder Film
With some various theories that have been presented.

Compiled by I. Marc Carlson.
This page was last edited on 30 March 2003
Frame # Event
140 The car turns on to Elm street.
145 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
151-153 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
154-155 Kennedy turns his head very rapidly from left to right.
158-160 Zapruder jiggled his camera. [Numerous "Ear-witnesses" recall the first shot being about this point, when the car has just turned the corner onto Elm Street]
160 The little girl who is running next to the Car begins to turn to her right.
162 The little girl has stopped running. Kennedy stops waving. Connally turns his head sharply to the right.
??? James Tague is struck by a piece of flying cement while standing under the end of the triple by-pass. [along a straight line, through the oak tree and the School Book Depository window. A mark in the cement along that line revealed traces of lead and antimony, suggesting that the round had lost its copper jacket -- which can happen when striking a tree branch]
167-210 Foliage blocks a School Book Depository sniper's view of Kennedy (with a small break at 186), according to reconstructions (2.3 seconds). Branches had given partial visual cover for some time before that.
187 (1.5 seconds after frame 160) The little girl has stopped and is staring at the SBD. Kennedy starts waving again. Mrs. Kennedy is looking around.
189-197 Zapruder jiggles his camera again.
188-191(190) [House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Kennedy was hit. This is the traditionally held time for that the second shot hit him. Many people believe that this shot was a front shot from a smaller weapon than the 6.5 mm Carcano]
200 No one in the car appears hurt. Kennedy is waving to the crowd with his right hand.
200-224 Zapruder's view of Kennedy is blocked by a highway sign. Even during this time, Kennedy's hand can still be seen over the sign.
202 Phillip Willis's photograph showing Zapruder was shot here.
207 Witness Howard Brennan turns abruptly to the right.
210 As Kennedy becomes visible from the foliage, this is the first opportunity that an SBD sniper would have a chance to fire.
220-228 Zapruder jiggles his camera.
223-224 Probable time that Kennedy was first hit. [At this point, the positions of the two men, Kennedy's leaning slightly forward, and the much taller Connally twisted to the right, with his hand in front of him, holding his hat at lower chest level, make it possible for a single bullet to enter Kennedy's back, pass through his lower throat, into Connally's right back, glance downward off a rib, exit under his right nipple, and enter his left thigh coming to rest, drained of energy, just below the skin.]
224 The right front lapel on Connally's suit flips up as the bullet passed through his chest.
225 Kennedy becomes visible to Zapruder again, his right arm is resting on the edge of the car, having just relaxed from waving. Connally shows no obvious effects.
226 Kennedy is clearly raising his right arm. Conally becomes rigid, and changed his expression [The House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Connally was hit based on his facial features and body position.]
227 Kennedy's arm jerks off the car, clearly reacting to the throat shot [This is a clear case of "Thorburn's Position", as his body reacts to the spinal damage caused by the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing so close to the spine in 223-4. This is supported by the fact that his arms are locked into position until 313] (1/10-2/10 of a second after 223-4) Connally's hat (held in his right hand) begins to move in a reflex response to his radius bone being broken)
228 Kennedy's torso pitches forward suddenly (to 231)
229 Connally's hat drops to its original position.
229-233 Mrs. Connally claimed her husband was shot about this time.
231-234 Connally told the Warren Commission that this was when he remembered being hit.
231 Kennedy stops moving forward.
234 Connally later determines it was at this point. [This is likely when Connally tried to take his next regular breath, the lung punctured only 2/3s of a second before collapsed, and making him feel like he'd just been hit; or, he IS hit at this point and his lung collapses at this point].
235 Connally's mouth opens wide and his body begins to react to the collapsed lung, drawing him down and to the right.
255 Estimated point at which Ike Altgens' picture is shot [showing what appears to be Oswald in the SBD doorway, and an open window in the second floor Dal-Tex broom closet. It also appears to show the crack in the windshield left by bullet fragments (see 337) ].
309?- Zapruder jiggles his camera.
312 Kennedy's head pitches forward suddenly.
313 The 161.2 grain slug, travelling at 2,100 feet per second smacks into the right occipital area of Kennedy's head, shattering the occipital bone and generating tremendous force in the flesh of the brain. The upper right side of his head explodes, blowing brains and bit of bone in an expanding pink cloud. The pieces of the parietal and temporal sections of his skull remain attached by skin, and so fall back into place, creating the appearance of an intact skull. His head lurches back to the left (8.0-8.4 seconds after the first shot) as his body stiffens suddenly from the massive neurological damage, and possibly aggravated by his back brace, or, if you wish, studies have also shown that the head flying back and to the left is also possible because of the matter ejected by the right side of his head exploding in a simple Newtonian happening. The film clearly shows the back of the head to be clean.
by 320 The two officers riding (to the left?) behind the car are splattered with bood and brains, after driving up to and passing through the cloud blown out of the President. (allegedly, a section of Kennedy's right occipital bone was found by Billy Harper, some 35 feet to the left and rear of the impact point
321 Kennedy is slumped to his left, the right parietal area of his skull completely exposed.
337 Kennedy is sliding into Mrs. Kennedy's lap, much of the flesh and bone of his skull hanging hinged by the skin. Two large bullet fragments were found in the car (44.6 and 21.0 grains = 65.6 grains) after they dented some chrome and damaged the windshield, and a "pristine" (Magic) bullet at the hospital (158.6 grains). The average weight of a 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is 161.2 grains. The six fragments removed from Connally would have weighed not more than 1.5 grains all together.
Sources:

Groden, Robert J. The Killing of a President. New York: Penguin Books, 1993.
Posner, Gerald. Case Closed, Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assasination of JFK. New York: Random House, 1993

[Tares]

1st shot: Frame 160

3rd shot: Frame 313

313-160=153 frames

153 frames/18.8 frames per second=8.1 seconds

8.1 seconds to:

1)load second round
2)fire second round
3)load third round
4)fire third round

[Shooter 2.5]

Yep. Two chamberings and two firings.

I would have like to have found this information a couple of years ago, but I haven't read "Case Closed". I'm still reading interviews out of the Warren Report.

I did find out why so many people hate the Warren Report. A serious researcher had to dig so deep into all of the false reports and poor witnesses until they can find the hidden facts. Even the conclusion sounds like it was written by blind men feeling an elephant.

[tpaine]

Compiled by I. Marc Carlson.
This page was last edited on 30 March 2003
Frame # Event
140 The car turns on to Elm street.
145 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
151-153 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
154-155 Kennedy turns his head very rapidly from left to right.
158-160 Zapruder jiggled his camera. [Numerous "Ear-witnesses" recall the first shot being about this point, when the car has just turned the corner onto Elm Street]
160 The little girl who is running next to the Car begins to turn to her right.
162 The little girl has stopped running. Kennedy stops waving. Connally turns his head sharply to the right.
??? James Tague is struck by a piece of flying cement while standing under the end of the triple by-pass. [along a straight line, through the oak tree and the School Book Depository window. A mark in the cement along that line revealed traces of lead and antimony, suggesting that the round had lost its copper jacket -- which can happen when striking a tree branch]
167-210 Foliage blocks a School Book Depository sniper's view of Kennedy (with a small break at 186), according to reconstructions (2.3 seconds). Branches had given partial visual cover for some time before that.
187 (1.5 seconds after frame 160) The little girl has stopped and is staring at the SBD. Kennedy starts waving again. Mrs. Kennedy is looking around.
189-197 Zapruder jiggles his camera again.
188-191(190) [House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Kennedy was hit. This is the traditionally held time for that the second shot hit him. Many people believe that this shot was a front shot from a smaller weapon than the 6.5 mm Carcano]
200 No one in the car appears hurt. Kennedy is waving to the crowd with his right hand.
200-224 Zapruder's view of Kennedy is blocked by a highway sign. Even during this time, Kennedy's hand can still be seen over the sign.
202 Phillip Willis's photograph showing Zapruder was shot here.
207 Witness Howard Brennan turns abruptly to the right.
210 As Kennedy becomes visible from the foliage, this is the first opportunity that an SBD sniper would have a chance to fire.
220-228 Zapruder jiggles his camera.
223-224 Probable time that Kennedy was first hit. [At this point, the positions of the two men, Kennedy's leaning slightly forward, and the much taller Connally twisted to the right, with his hand in front of him, holding his hat at lower chest level, make it possible for a single bullet to enter Kennedy's back, pass through his lower throat, into Connally's right back, glance downward off a rib, exit under his right nipple, and enter his left thigh coming to rest, drained of energy, just below the skin.]
224 The right front lapel on Connally's suit flips up as the bullet passed through his chest.
225 Kennedy becomes visible to Zapruder again, his right arm is resting on the edge of the car, having just relaxed from waving. Connally shows no obvious effects.
226 Kennedy is clearly raising his right arm. Conally becomes rigid, and changed his expression [The House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Connally was hit based on his facial features and body position.]
227 Kennedy's arm jerks off the car, clearly reacting to the throat shot [This is a clear case of "Thorburn's Position", as his body reacts to the spinal damage caused by the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing so close to the spine in 223-4. This is supported by the fact that his arms are locked into position until 313] (1/10-2/10 of a second after 223-4) Connally's hat (held in his right hand) begins to move in a reflex response to his radius bone being broken)
228 Kennedy's torso pitches forward suddenly (to 231)
229 Connally's hat drops to its original position.
229-233 Mrs. Connally claimed her husband was shot about this time.
231-234 Connally told the Warren Commission that this was when he remembered being hit.
231 Kennedy stops moving forward.
234 Connally later determines it was at this point. [This is likely when Connally tried to take his next regular breath, the lung punctured only 2/3s of a second before collapsed, and making him feel like he'd just been hit; or, he IS hit at this point and his lung collapses at this point].
235 Connally's mouth opens wide and his body begins to react to the collapsed lung, drawing him down and to the right.
255 Estimated point at which Ike Altgens' picture is shot [showing what appears to be Oswald in the SBD doorway, and an open window in the second floor Dal-Tex broom closet. It also appears to show the crack in the windshield left by bullet fragments (see 337) ].
309?- Zapruder jiggles his camera.
312 Kennedy's head pitches forward suddenly.
313 The 161.2 grain slug, travelling at 2,100 feet per second smacks into the right occipital area of Kennedy's head, shattering the occipital bone and generating tremendous force in the flesh of the brain. The upper right side of his head explodes, blowing brains and bit of bone in an expanding pink cloud. The pieces of the parietal and temporal sections of his skull remain attached by skin, and so fall back into place, creating the appearance of an intact skull. His head lurches back to the left (8.0-8.4 seconds after the first shot) as his body stiffens suddenly from the massive neurological damage, and possibly aggravated by his back brace, or, if you wish, studies have also shown that the head flying back and to the left is also possible because of the matter ejected by the right side of his head exploding in a simple Newtonian happening. The film clearly shows the back of the head to be clean.
by 320 The two officers riding (to the left?) behind the car are splattered with bood and brains, after driving up to and passing through the cloud blown out of the President. (allegedly, a section of Kennedy's right occipital bone was found by Billy Harper, some 35 feet to the left and rear of the impact point
321 Kennedy is slumped to his left, the right parietal area of his skull completely exposed.

337 Kennedy is sliding into Mrs. Kennedy's lap, much of the flesh and bone of his skull hanging hinged by the skin. Two large bullet fragments were found in the car (44.6 and 21.0 grains = 65.6 grains) after they dented some chrome and damaged the windshield, and a "pristine" (Magic) bullet at the hospital (158.6 grains). The average weight of a 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is 161.2 grains. The six fragments removed from Connally would have weighed not more than 1.5 grains all together.

______________________________________


1st shot: Frame 160 [Unsupported supposition.. If so, where is the spent bullet?]

3rd shot: Frame 313
313-160=153 frames
153 frames/18.8 frames per second=8.1 seconds
8.1 seconds to:


1)load second round
2)fire second round
3)load third round
4)fire third round
192 -tares-
_____________________________________

--- Carlsens timeline above, which supports the Reports 'single bullet timeline'---


1) Aim, fire, -- Frame 226 shows JFK throat hit.

2) Cycle action, aim, fire second round. Miss.

3) Cycle action, aim, fire third round. -- Frame 313 shows head hit on JFK.

Maximum 103 frames, - 5.48 seconds, - to aim & fire three shots with a rifle that takes 2.3 seconds to cycle the action.

Show me an expert able to convincingly duplicate the feat without fudging, much less a bumbling clown like oswald.
The case is far from 'closed'.

[mlo]

Maximum 103 frames, - 5.48 seconds, - to aim & fire three shots with a rifle that takes 2.3 seconds to cycle the action.

That's only if the second shot missed. And you've misstated the sequence. That's only aiming two times, the time starts when the first shot is fired.

For a first shot miss it's over 8 seconds to aim and fire two shots, as you've already been told.

[tpaine]

The Warren Report itself [see post #190's link] tells us that the second shot missing is 'consistant' with it's SBT.
And this same scenario is the one they have tried, and failed, - to recreate.
What you insist is 'told' is immaterial. The facts from the films timelines speak for themselves.

[PhilDragoo]

The Commission allows only three shots.

One missed, hit the curb twenty feet from the underpass, and the ricochet cut James Tague's cheek.

The damage to the curb was patched with darker material, preventing analysis of residue.

Tague had filmed the nick, after which his home was burgled and the film was the only item taken.

[Decker, too, photographed the nick, and the FBI kept the negatives it took from him.]

Tague was surprised by Liebeler asking about the film, because it was not public that he'd taken it.

The FBI recommended examination by a building materials specialist which is included along with the above information in Harold Weisberg, Case Open, Carroll & Graf, 1994, Chapter XIII, pages 135-166.

Unfortunately for the Warren Commission version, three shots cannot account for the known effects:

A missed shot;

A Kennedy head shot;

A Kennedy back shot without exit, one finger digit deep per autopsists;

A Magic Bullet causing seven wounds including two in bone, leaving Commission Exhibit 399 missing only the two grains carved from its base for NAA testing purposes.

Add various missed shots in the turf, one by the manhole, the windshield--

Not to mention the throat wound which was described as a wound of entry--

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain; he works for the Wizard Commission.

[Calvin Locke]

I find this rich. Wasn't Johnson the one that put the Presidential Order barring assassinations by the CIA,
thanks to the excesses of the Kennedy Bros. (aka the "What are we running? Murder, Inc." quote)

Not that I wouldn't put it past LBJ.

This story has been around almost as long as the first report of JFK being shot.

[tpaine]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain; he works for the Wizard Commission.
-phil-

What is really amazing about these discussions is the absolute zealotry of the Warren Commissions defenders.

It's hard to imagine what they 'get' out of attempting to justify the governments near TOTAL foul up of this case.

It was apparent from the initial media reports that Oswald was being set up as the lone gunman. I read everything I could get my hands on back in '64, prior to the Report, and finally got a copy hot off the presses..
I, and millions of other interested citizens read the report & immediately wrote our newspapers, outlining the same infantile errors in fact and logic that we still point out today.

Back then there were few apologists for the report.
I find it weird that there are now so many here at FR, -- on a site dedicated in part to rooting out government fraud.
Apparently, the big lie principle is working well.

[Phsstpok]

You laugh, but it is likely that this sort of bizarre chain was involved:

President John Kennedy was nominated and elected thanks to help from organized crime in this country, aka the Mafia. Once in the White House he shared a mistress with mob boss Sam Giancana.  A recent Showtime documentary on Joe Bonano's biography makes several things clear.  Bonano claims, and he is not the only source to do so, that Joe relentlessly pursued the mob - whom he knew from his bootlegging days - for help in electing his son President. They gave that help, then felt double-crossed when Attorney General Bobby Kennedy continued to prosecute them. 

Bonano - who was certainly in a position to know - avers that Joe had promised him in a face to face meeting to rein in Bobby.  Joe had a stroke shortly thereafter.  Bobby was not reined in.  Bonano claims that the mob was in on the assassination in Dallas as pay back for what they saw as a bald faced betrayal. 

This is from a quick Google search on "Bonano Kennedy" based on remembering the book written by Joe Bonano's son.  His father, a NY mafia big, told him that their family was involved in JFKs assassination.  The most likely scenario I've seen involves the NY and New Orleans mob as well as Castro.  The mob felt betrayed by Bobby and JFK.  they could get rid of both threats by killing JFK.  They had lost out big on their gambling investments in Cuba after the debacle with the revolution and the bay of pigs.  They were just getting into the drug business in a big way.  Castro had been personally targeted by the Kennedy assassination machine and was looking for revenge.  Further he could provide a protected corridor for the mob to smuggle their newest vice product from central and south America.  What better action to seal the deal?

Interestingly the New Orleans mob, along with the Dixie Mafia, was instrumental in setting up Bill Clinton in his political career.  As father Guido Sarducci asked, "coinchidenchia?"