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Where Communism Works in America
9/22/2003 | Dan Evans

Posted on 09/22/2003 9:06:51 PM PDT by Dan Evans

Most of us know of the Amish. The Amish were made famous by the film "Witness", but a lesser known group, Hutterites, came to mind after a recent post about Communism in colonial times.

The Amish, Mennonites and Hutterites are Anabaptists. The reason they are called Anabaptists is something to think about because it reveals something about their character. Although they are devout Christians, they do not believe in baptizing children because children do not have the wisdom to decide something as serious as a religious conviction. Baptism is done much later in life with the consent of the individual.

Anabaptists have a sense of community that is truly breathtaking. You probably have seen how the Amish can build a barn in a day. Recently I read about an Amish farm home that burned down. These homes are huge because they have about nine kids per family. But about a hundred or so neighbors got together and rebuilt it in about three days. They are, apparently, not union workers. The Amish don't believe in health insurance but doctors love them because they always pay in cash. How do they do this when they have a family income of about $12,000? The neighbors are the insurance policy. If they can't scrape up enough cash from community donations they will sell their farm.

But this isn't communism. Each family owns its own home, property and farmland.

Hutterites, however, are a completely different story. Hutterites live in what can best be described as communes. They have large homes with several families per home. Each family has a separate bedroom but they share a common living area. The main meal of the day is in a communal dining hall where all members of the colony eat (about 50 to 150 people).

Hutterites are usually farmers but unlike the Amish, Hutterites do not shun modern technology. They use electricity and the latest John Deere farm equipment. The farms are large, up to about 10,000 acres and very productive. In South Dakota, Hutterite colonies produce about forty percent of that state's pork. This productivity often gets them in trouble with non-Hutterite competitors who resent it when find themselves failing in bad times as the Hutterites thrive. Hutterite buildings have been the victims of arson attacks.

Hutterites work for a salary of about six dollars a month. Everything else is provided by the colony and individuals have few personal possessions other than clothing. At the Oak Lane Colony in South Dakota, Robert Wipf is the assistant swine manager. Summing his lifestyle, he says, "I get paid nothing, but I get everything I need."

Like the Amish, they are intensely egalitarian and have strict rules about dress, grooming and behavior. Suspenders, no belt. Beards required, but no moustache allowed. They are very sensitive about personal property:

From Laura Wilson, "Hutterites of Montana":

"Children learn early the principles of communal life. 'Our main purpose is to keep everyone together, ' said Lydia Waldner of Fairhaven Colony. 'Everyone has to get along with each other--not thinking one should have more than the other. That's the biggest thing for our children.' Ownership, in the Hutterite view, divides people into the haves and the have-nots; that division creates resentment and envy. I remember four orphaned coyote pups that were found by Lydia's son Luke. He kept one himself and gave the other three to friends. The coyotes were obviously fun for the colony children, a chance to have pets and learn about wild animals.But Lydia Waldner worried. 'Some children have one, and some don't. The pups are creating conflicts. Children are competing to play with them. We should let them go.' She saw the coyotes as a disruptive element. I remembered that the Hutterite dogs I had seen at other colonies were not children's pets but work dogs used to herd sheep and cattle."

The Anabaptist fear of individuality means that getting a picture of them is like pulling teeth. Somehow Laura Wilson, above, was able to charm the minister into allowing some photos, but if you should take a snapshot of an Amish man and it appears in the local paper, chances are you have gotten him into serious trouble. He will have to convince his bishop that he didn't see the camera or there was no time to turn his head. It's like the whole community is in the witness protection program.

Photos tend to make celebrities, celebrities can be prideful and think they are more important than others. Think Sean Penn. Or think of a picture of Saddam everywhere you turn. Be careful, Laura, you don't want to become another Leni Riefenstahl.

When a Hutterite colony grows to a population of about 150 it outgrows the land and the colony splits. Half of them leave and establish a new colony, electing a new minister. I'm going to leave the obvious and disturbing comparison to a beehive up to you. The only limitation to the growth of the Anabaptists is the availability of farmland. Some Hutterites and Anabaptists are getting involved in manufacturing to help keep their families together.

From Hutterites of Montana:

The Hutterites trace their beginnings to a moment in the spring of 1528 when a small band of religious refugees from the Tyrol passing through Moravia, now part of Czechoslovakia, spread a cloak on the ground and placed all they owned upon it. By doing this they affirmed their decision to follow the example of the Apostles as explained in the Bible: "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need" (Acts of the Apostles 2:44-45). Communalism is the distinguishing principle by which all Hutterites have lived for nearly 475 years.

All this all sounds like a Marxist's wet dream. So then what's the difference between a Hutterite Colony and, say, the Soviet Union? Well, for one thing, a few hundred million people. Some Hutterite colonies have had bad ministers who caused the colony to fail. But since colonies are limited in size, the damage is minimal. The remaining colonies learn from the experience. The Soviet Union, on the other hand, was like this great big colony that had Charles Manson for a minister.

But are Hutterites communists? Well, not really. After all, they are capitalists who do well at competing with other capitalists. Their communities may sound like hippie communes but most of them are related to each other so it's more a large extended family than a commune. Then why did I post this? Why should we heathens care about these quaint little Pilgrims?

Because the Amish and Hutterites could save western civilization from extinction.

Here's what I'm talking about. California is fast becoming a Central American country. At least one political movement is threatening to turn the southwest into a big Hispanic state and exclude all whites. But bring up illegal immigration and there's always some pinhead who says something like, "But who's going to pick the crops. You'll pay five bucks for a head of lettuce?".

Pat Buchanan warns in his book, "The Death of the West", how immigration and a dying population threaten to lower America and Europe to third world status. Pat's remedy for this is lower taxes for parents. Like peeing on a forest fire. I've got a more radical solution.

The Amish make lots of babies and the only reason we aren't up to our eyeballs in Amish is that they've run out of land. When that happens the kids leave the community, replenishing our population.

About a third of this country is land that belongs to the Federal Government and a lot of it is land that could be cleared for farming. The biggest gripe that Amish and Hutterites have is high taxes and the high cost of land. So we pass a law allowing the sale of this land as farm land under covenant agreement such so that no motorized vehicles can be used. That should keep the Greenies happy and the Amish will buy up that land in an instant. Change tax laws so that no property taxes will be levied on any farm land. While we're at it, get rid of crop price supports and subsidies so that corporations aren't paid for not farming so they'll sell their land to the Hutterites.

In a few generations we'll have all the baby-makers and lettuce pickers we'll ever need.

Why is this better than winking at illegals and allowing unchecked immigration? Anabaptists are pacifists. They won't pick up a gun to save their life, they won't vote or go near a lawyer unless their very existence is threatened and they won't knock on your door in the morning when you've got a hangover to ask if you know Jesus. Our courts are not clogged with Angry Amish street gang members and no one has ever heard of an Amish serial killer. If an Amish man ever gets in trouble with the law it makes national news as a man-bites-dog story. They are pretty much mind-your-own-business types. All they do is grow crops, raise farm animals and have babies. That's all they do, they make living things.

And then after they outgrow their land again, we will benefit as their kids move into the general population.

But does that mean America will be in danger of being overpopulated? No, not at all. The reason we aren't having as many children as we used to is simply because of an excess of culture, TV, movies, sports, books, video games -- we've got better things to do than change diapers. People who suppress culture, like the Anabaptists or Muslims tend to spawn a lot of kids because -- well, that's all they have for entertainment. American culture will still be here and we'll need it too because we need creative, unfettered people to make all those clever bombs and things to keep the rest of the world at bay.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: amish; anabaptist; christians; communism; hutterite; mennonites; population

1 posted on 09/22/2003 9:06:51 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
Small scale communism has always been possible. Get a small group together for some meeting on something and everyone is treated as equals. You are usually willing to share with someone you can look in the eye and get an idea of his/her character. Large scale communism has always failed. Who is willing to share with the drug user living in a different state, 400 miles away.
2 posted on 09/22/2003 9:14:49 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: Dan Evans
Black conservative columnist Thomas Sowell also wrote a piece about small scale communism thriving, but always failing at a large scale.

My best example is suppose a shoemaker decides he wants more money so he works twice as hard and makes twice as many shoes. That works. But if every shoemaker decides the same, there will be too many shoes, and everyone will go bankrupt. Scale matters. Microeconomics is not the same as Macroeconomics. Communism fails at large scales.
3 posted on 09/22/2003 9:18:13 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: Dan Evans
Very, very strange perspective. Not saying you're wrong, just that I've never thought about it before. ;)
4 posted on 09/22/2003 9:20:44 PM PDT by walden
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To: Dan Evans
At the Oak Lane Colony in South Dakota, Robert Wipf is the assistant swine manager.

Now there's a hell of a job title. I'm sure the DNC has an opening for assistant swine manager!

5 posted on 09/22/2003 9:27:59 PM PDT by viaveritasvita
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To: Dan Evans
SPOTREP
6 posted on 09/22/2003 9:28:05 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: staytrue
There is also the factors of shared ideals and personal relationships. As one old man I know states, communism only exists under God or the gun. I might add that under the gun, it needs to recruit and hold onto its subjects by force.
7 posted on 09/22/2003 9:36:48 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Defund PBS, NPR & PRAVDA)
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To: viaveritasvita
The assistant swine manager works for the hog boss. I left out an interesting anecdote about the dangers of hog farming. On hot summer days the ammonia fumes can reach dangerous levels. One fellow was overcome by fumes and fell into the sewage. His friend came to rescue him and, of course he was overcome too. Only one died though. They invested in more ventilation fans after that. (They manufacture their own now.)
8 posted on 09/22/2003 9:41:11 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
"rebuilt it in about three days. They are, apparently, not union workers"

Interesting, too bad you couldn't resist the gratuitous shot at unions though.
9 posted on 09/22/2003 9:51:02 PM PDT by Graybeard58 (I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific.)
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To: Dan Evans
"rebuilt it in about three days. They are, apparently, not union workers"

Interesting, too bad you couldn't resist the gratuitous shot at unions though.
10 posted on 09/22/2003 9:51:02 PM PDT by Graybeard58 (I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific.)
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To: Graybeard58
Sorry, Graybeard, Though I used to be a union man if that helps.
11 posted on 09/22/2003 9:55:06 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
Communists have many victories, damn them.

It's like when the PLO in 1974 declared the "phases" strategy to wipe out Israel.

Commies have changed their names whenever anybodies sensitivities were irritated.

Dialectic and marginalizing morality are settled for now, knowing that piece by piece the world will fall to them.

Basturds.

12 posted on 09/22/2003 10:02:30 PM PDT by Taiwan Bocks
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To: walden
Pat Buchanan says that the answer is for us to get back to our Christian values, but few people who lose their values are going to get them back. It's easier, however, to get more people who haven't lost them.
13 posted on 09/22/2003 10:08:38 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
What goes clip-clop clip-clop bang, clip-clo clip-clop bang?

An Amish drive-by ;)

One of my favorites for years.
14 posted on 09/22/2003 10:12:10 PM PDT by wlansberry
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To: Taiwan Bocks
In the 1950's, we had a lot of communists in America. But after the atrocities of the Stalin regime were revealed those numbers diminished followed by an identical increase in the numbers of Democrats.

Comparing Hutterites with communists was slightly mischievous on my part, though. The point is that communism is invariably evil and Hutterites are at the other extreme.

15 posted on 09/22/2003 10:20:05 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: staytrue
Its the same principle that works for monasteries and convents. The ideal life appeals only to a few and when its restricted to a few it works beautifully. But not every one has the capacity or the talent to live such a life and trying to force every one to follow it generally leads to disaster. Communism and celibacy work on a small scale but writ large, they generally burden individuals more than they can bear. Perhaps there is a lesson here somewhere for our big government socialists?
16 posted on 09/22/2003 10:20:43 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Taiwan Bocks
They're everywhere. They just aren't organized enough to recognize each other. A.N.S.W.E.R., MECha, N.E.A., P.E.T.A., Greenpeace, N.A.A.C.P., A.C.L.U. and many, many members of the Democrat Party are guided by Communism or are led by people who believe in it.
They Live.
17 posted on 09/22/2003 10:22:01 PM PDT by NewRomeTacitus (Where are those confounded sunglasses?)
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To: Dan Evans
Washington, DC.

L

18 posted on 09/22/2003 10:29:30 PM PDT by Lurker ("To expect the government to save you is to be a bystander in your own fate." Mark Steyn)
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To: Dan Evans
WHy not point out that the successful American communes predominantly religious based, and that Communism eschews Christianity as well as Judasm.

This of course raises the logical question as to whether a Christian nation would be better off than a atheist one, and the answer from American history is absolutely yes. We don't, of course, count the old south as Christian. They felt they were, but the dependence of 5 million of 4 million slaves doesn't set a particularly good Christian example.

19 posted on 09/22/2003 10:36:02 PM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Dan Evans
The Amish don't believe in health insurance but doctors love them because they always pay in cash. How do they do this when they have a family income of about $12,000?

This is hard to peg. The IRS has trouble accurately accounting for barter arrangements when both parties to the barter don't report it. For instance, I know one Amish family that builds and installs 40,000 kitchens. I doubt they only make 12,000 a year at it, particularly as they are alwasy busy, and as they run a furniture store and factory to help cover the overhead...

20 posted on 09/22/2003 10:39:16 PM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: goldstategop
Another way of looking at it is that the Anabaptists are born into their lifestyle. Nobody gets converted to be a Hutterite or Amishman. Mennonites are a different story, but that isn't such an austere existence.

But only a small percentage of Amish children leave now that they are branching into manufacturing. So it is remarkable how flexible humans really are.

I think communism fails because it is an inherently unstable monoculture. All it takes is for one evil person to take advantage of the system.
21 posted on 09/22/2003 10:41:47 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Graybeard58
Interesting, too bad you couldn't resist the gratuitous shot at unions though.

Gratuitous, hell. Necessary! Obvious! Lazy, corrupt, government-subsidized bastards.

Unions must die.

22 posted on 09/22/2003 10:46:22 PM PDT by Hank Rearden (Dick Gephardt. Before he dicks you.)
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To: Dan Evans
But bring up illegal immigration and there's always some pinhead who says something like, "But who's going to pick the crops. You'll pay five bucks for a head of lettuce?".

Or, they will immediately scream, "racist".

23 posted on 09/22/2003 10:49:32 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Held_to_Ransom
Do you mean 40,000 kitchens a year? That must be a big family or they have a lot of other employees. I think the $12,000 figure applies to the average farmer.

I also get the impression from my research that a favorite sport of the Amish is lying to overly inquisitive Yankees.

Terrible, though, that they confuse the IRS. Tsk.
24 posted on 09/22/2003 10:50:35 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
The assistant swine manager works for the hog boss.

This latter person, I presume, is not to be confused with Boss Hogg?

25 posted on 09/22/2003 10:52:33 PM PDT by SAJ
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To: Held_to_Ransom
"Why not point out that the successful American communes predominantly religious based, and that Communism eschews Christianity as well as Judasm?"

Yeah, I thought about that, but then some wise guy is going to say, "Communism is a religion and what about the Cubans, they're Catholic?"

But you are right, Western Civilization was pretty much created by Christians. It is only appropriate they should save it.
26 posted on 09/22/2003 11:04:17 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
So we pass a law allowing the sale of this land as farm land under covenant agreement such so that no motorized vehicles can be used. Ever see a Amish farm, they have Deere tractors, but the non-Amish farm hands operate and repair them.

Your piece has very disturbing racialist undertones. Mostly by a poor choice of words, using the word "spawn" to describe family growth, etc.

You are, and most Americans are, confused between the ideologies of Communitarianism and Communism. Communitarianism comes from the groups you described, and Quakers, Shakers, and more recently Catholic Liberacion clergy in South America. Many of those illegal aliens you (and many, including myself to some degree) fret over, were raised in Mexico and Gautemala by Liberacion ideology, which is the leader in the Communitarian ideology as far as increasing numbers of believers/followers. As far as opening up the national lands, I'm all for it, but the East Asians gevernments might not wnt anyone to disturb their Federal reserve debt collateral.

27 posted on 09/22/2003 11:20:16 PM PDT by JerseyHighlander
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To: JerseyHighlander
What is disturbing? The Hutterites practice the communal model while the Amish are community oriented. No Amish guy is going to walk into your house in the middle of the night to use "communal" property. The Mormons are more Hutterite than Amish through their purposely designed involvement in each other's personal lives.
In all the world only America provides a framework where such diverse interests can co-exist side by side. Churches, temples and mosques manage to share city blocks here without nary a person feeling he has to blow himself up. It's all about Freedom.
28 posted on 09/22/2003 11:55:03 PM PDT by NewRomeTacitus (Veterans: the oath doesn't end at short boot time. If you didn't mean it you shouldn't have joined.)
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To: Dan Evans
I think communism fails because it is an inherently unstable monoculture. All it takes is for one evil person to take advantage of the system.

Your article mentioned that the communes split up after they reach 150 people. There's a lot of research that shows that the average person can keep track of relationships with at most 150 people. Above that size, an organization becomes too bureaucratic, and too many of the interactions become arms-length & impersonal, which erodes the constant, personal sense of being accountable for your actions. This is why large-scale communism can never work. IMO.

29 posted on 09/23/2003 12:13:54 AM PDT by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: Dan Evans
But these Amish communities trade, do integrate with modern society, pay taxes, own private property and are very religious.

Almost everything communism wasn't, especially the religious and moral aspect.

30 posted on 09/23/2003 12:18:48 AM PDT by Fledermaus (Democrats have stunted brain development!)
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To: Fledermaus
True communism allows slackers, for a period of time (which destroys the ideal), to suck off the work of others.

Eventually, the "others" ask them to leave. Which again proves communism is a fraud. Why? Just look at how they defend their utopia...they'll tell you communism would work perfectly if it wasn't for the failings of their fellow humans.

DUH!

Even lesbians on a communal farm in Mississippi get that concept: Produce or get out as they sell their beaded jewelry and homemade honey at the New Age store in town...and through the cataloug...website...toll free number...
31 posted on 09/23/2003 12:25:25 AM PDT by Fledermaus (Democrats have stunted brain development!)
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To: JerseyHighlander
Regarding the Amish use of non-Amish helpers: This seems to be a growing trend, especially in manufacturing, that bothers me and I hope they know what they are doing. The danger is cultural osmosis as they associate more with the outside world. But, there are a lot of different Amish churches each with different ways of doing things.

On Communitarianism and the Liberacion clergy, you're right I am confused. I see little in common between Hutterites and that of South American rebels. Is there such a thing as "Communitarian ideology"? If so, it must not work below certain latitudes if they need to come north and climb over the fence to get work.

As far as the collateral for the Federal Debt goes, maybe that's the key here. Let them foreclose on all that land and then they'll have to sell it off to the Hutterites.

32 posted on 09/23/2003 12:58:24 AM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: NewRomeTacitus
You don't see the Jeffersonian racialist "yeoman farmer" ideal scaled up to a Communitarian level in the concept of having certain religious groups controlling farm production to limit the ability of immigrants to acquire jobs in this country? I agree with the reduction of farm subsidies, but that's a corporate vs. citizen owner/operator/farmer argument, whether the citizens are Southern Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Anglicans or whatever.

And what of this:In a few generations we'll have all the baby-makers and lettuce pickers we'll ever need.

That is Orwellian, and uses religion as a manipulative tool of control. What fundamental difference will there be in 40 years between baby-making farm wives of Anabaptist communes and babymaking farmwives of Catholic Church communities? They would both be made to serve the pampered princesses of the consumerist class, who won't reproduce. This is better then our current fate of Third World invasion? No, it's the same result, except the color of the underclasses' skin pigment is different.

On that note, I support Rep. Tancredo's stances by and by, and want to see a rational immigration policy come into law, funded and vigorously enforced. Bringing in anti-immigrant rhetoric reminiscent of the Anti-Irish rhetoric of 2 centuries ago is a discredit to the public argument.

33 posted on 09/23/2003 1:07:01 AM PDT by JerseyHighlander
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To: jennyp
Yes, I assumed they split up (they call it "branching") was because the land couldn't support more than 150 people. But maybe what they do is buy land that can support 150 people because they know that they can't manage more than that many.
34 posted on 09/23/2003 1:17:30 AM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: JerseyHighlander
If you want to evaluate this rationally maybe it's best to forget about rhetoric and look at what is actually being proposed. I say my proposal is the least coercive than the traditional approach. It is simply land reform. Why is land reform bad if you do it in America? Controlling illegal immigration via border control and harassment of employers is coercive -- it requires men with guns making threats. Allowing Amish and Hutterites to expand their numbers will solve the problem without coercion.

Amish and Hutterites are not an "underclass" and they are not victims. If you don't believe me, ask them. They will tell you that they feel more fortunate than you. But ask the same question of the typical migrant farm worker and you will hear a list of grievances and threats to take back "the land the gringo's stole". This is not about skin pigment but about creating a civilized people. The Anabaptists do that better than anyone.

I'm sorry if anyone doesn't like this rhetoric but Western Civilization is headed for the rocks and we need think about what created it and how we can save it.
35 posted on 09/23/2003 2:10:13 AM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
"Comparing Hutterites with communists was slightly mischievous on my part, though. The point is that communism is invariably evil and Hutterites are at the other extreme. "

I agree. Commune living is in no way communism.

It is an interesting theory with the Hutterites and Amish, but if we all lived like they did we all would still be riding horses to work and going to church in our buggies. We could never be a superpower, which would be OK, as long as, we were never invaded.

We would have been invaded years ago, no doubt.

36 posted on 09/23/2003 9:58:08 AM PDT by auggy (http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-DownhomeKY /// Check out My USA Photo album & Fat Files)
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To: auggy
"but if we all lived like they did we all would still be riding horses to work and going to church in our buggies. We could never be a superpower, which would be OK, as long as, we were never invaded. "

Yes, Auggy, this is exactly my point in the final paragraph. Liberals talk a lot about diversity but they only have a vague idea about why it is good.

Compare a nation to a living body. If all the cells in the body did the same thing, the body would die. We need all kinds of cells, but they need to be the right kind. You can not take just any cell from outside the body and transplant into a body without serious risk. All it takes is a tiny amount of a toxic bacteria to kill you. Likewise, cells from your body can not live long outside it. The Amish have tried living all over the world but they thrive mostly in North America.

I say we need the Anabaptists as much as they need us.

37 posted on 09/23/2003 11:26:54 AM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
I also get the impression from my research that a favorite sport of the Amish is lying to overly inquisitive Yankees.

They don't lie. They just guard their privacy. You can't lie if you don't speak.

As for the bit about Yankees, you have it totally backwards. Robert E. Lee himself was profoundly confused by the Amish and Pennsylvanians in general, as that state contributed more volunteers on the war against slavery than any other state in the Union, Amish included. THe Amish, like most other Yankees, always considered slavery to be the height of sloth and self indulgence.

38 posted on 09/23/2003 11:45:38 AM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Dan Evans
Oh, yes, the kitchens. Kitchens worth 40,000 each. Doesn't take to many to break the $12,000 barrier, and no, they don't seem to sell many below the Mason Dixon line.
39 posted on 09/23/2003 11:47:03 AM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Held_to_Ransom
Amish refer to non-Amish as "the English" or "Yankees". And, yes, they were a major part of the Underground Railroad that hid so many runaway slaves. I wasn't aware that they enlisted in the Army though. I thought that would get them tossed out of the church.
40 posted on 09/23/2003 12:01:53 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Held_to_Ransom
Forty grand for a kitchen seems pricey. Is this for restaurants? Or are they installing kitchens for Hutterite colonies?

I'm kind of curious about these Amish families that have gone into manufacturing. How well do you know them?
41 posted on 09/23/2003 12:16:29 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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To: Dan Evans
"I say we need the Anabaptists as much as they need us"

True!

42 posted on 09/23/2003 12:55:59 PM PDT by auggy (http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-DownhomeKY /// Check out My USA Photo album & Fat Files)
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To: Dan Evans
They do a lot of things. Being Amish is a lot like Judaism. More are born to it than stay with it.

When I was in grade school I had a teacher who had spent a number of years in the Amish country (it's not far away). She used to love to tell stories of her young Amish students who would keep a chevy parked in the woolds somewhere.

As for the Kitchen makers, I only know them from doing business with them on several occasions. I used to sell kitcnen refacing at between 8 and 12 thousand up here for an average kitchen. $40,000 is a nice kitchen, but it's not out of line in a house worth 750,000 or so. Obviously you haven't heard of Johnny Grey. He does kitchens with antiques and custom metal work that seldom go below $100,000.

It's not all that surprising to see some rule bending here and there. I know another Amish business where they had gotten computers but were told they couldn't keep them. It's a saddlery shop, and they do a lot of business in all around, so they really couldn't do without the compurers. Solution? Move the computers to a house down the road. They still use though, they just aren't as convenient as they once were.
43 posted on 09/23/2003 2:33:31 PM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Dan Evans
English? Yankees? Never heard in Lancaster county. We have a lot of folks besides just the Amish htough. Some Quakers that kept the faith, as well as Menonites etc. The number of runaway slaves is another great myth. Between 1850 and 1860, the number of Americans of African heritage in the northern states didn't even increase. Two factors in this though, and one was that under the Fugitive Slave Act, any freeman in tha Northern state could be legally re-enslaved. At first this caused near riots in the north, and the state courts in most state chose to ignore the Federal law. This then reduced those who could be re-enslaved to only those who could be abducted. Even if you were legal, why advertise yourself as a target in the census?

The second reason was that all during the 1850's, partolism in the south intensifiec significantly. It became exceedingly difficult for a runaway to run away. Non slave owning citizens were all required to danate one or two nights a week to riding slave partrols on the roads all night. It was this patrol system that made the south so easy to control under martial law to enable the start of the war, and also made it a natural for the formation of the post war KKK.

Naturally, any black seen on the road in the daylight was bound to be intercepted, and if not with papers or know locally, he was soon on the block.

44 posted on 09/23/2003 2:44:18 PM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Held_to_Ransom

English? Yankees? Never heard in Lancaster county.

Interesting. The terms are used in the movie "Witness" and you come across all kinds of references on the net. Maybe they don't use those words around us.

Regarding the use of computers, I notice they do the same thing with phones. A fellow wanted one in his business and the bishop told him he had to keep it in a shed outside where he couldn't hear it ring. I read that in wasn't unusual for Amish homes to have phones sometime after the turn of the last century but they were banned as being too disruptive. And so they did the same thing -- they keep them in shed down the road. Maybe someday the Amish will be playing video games -- in a shed down the road.

45 posted on 09/23/2003 4:53:18 PM PDT by Dan Evans
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