But these varieties of Islamic style, far from reflecting a humanistic vision, suggest a world governed by the rigors of the intellect and the strictures of law. That world, whether in a mosque or a palace, presumes submission and declares mastery.
But the individual is not the focus of attention. The position or status of the individual is. This is quite different from the humane ideal so often attached to Andalusia's name. The outcome is not a version of tolerance, though at its best it can offer a version of the sublime.
The upshot is, to the Muslim mind tolerance and inclusion means that infidels are turned into second-class citizens dependent upon the mercy of Muslims instead of being killed.
posted on 09/27/2003 1:05:33 PM PDT
I have discussed this history with educated people who knew absolutely nothing about it. After getting them at least a little enlightened they usually say that nothing like this could happen today.
But it is such ignorance which could enable it again. France could be the first to fall into a modern dark age. Will people who have adopted the multicultural view defend their own culture when attempts are made to smother it?
While much has changed, many things have not. Perhaps there will be another 'al-Andalus'. Is there a modern day Charles Martel in our future?
posted on 09/27/2003 1:20:31 PM PDT
During the time of the Muslim occupation of Spain, Christianity was hardly a model of theological enlightenment.
Its this Spanish version of Islam that the muslims are using to appeal to Mexicans, Latins and South Americans
Islam making inroads south of our borders as well as north and right here at home- for that matterl...
Though the Catholic Church of Spain made catholics of nearly all of the Americas....at least some Hispanics in prison seem to be converting...
Those who dont revert back to some bastardized form of Pagan Earth/Aztec/Mayan/Inca worship in Aztlan...may imbrace Islam
After all any religon that wishes to run off or kill off white people and take their possesions cant be all bad...then there is the matter of
pedophile priests who are probably not making many friends among Hispanics who for the most part abhore that kind of perversity...
posted on 09/27/2003 1:28:33 PM PDT
(Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
How dare they suggest Islam was not tolerant?
And from the NY Times, no less!
posted on 09/27/2003 1:31:31 PM PDT
( Proud Infidel)
To: quidnunc; *Clash of Civilizatio
Very valuable article.
For radical Islamists, the key note is revenge: in one of Osama bin Laden's post-9/11 broadcasts, his deputy invoked "the tragedy of al-Andalus."
So, let me get this straight.
My Spanish ancestors were deeply rooted in Western Civilization since the Romans won the Second Punic War in 202 B.C., the Islamic hoards destroyed most of Hispania's Hispano-Roman society in 711 A.D., it took my ancestors until 1492 to drive them back into Africa and they want revenge?
Well, bring it on. Under the banners of the Visigothic Kingdom of Spain, under the banners of Castile and Leon and under the Stars and Stripes, my family has been fighting these Islamic fanatics, on and off, since 711 A.D.
The fight ain't over.
posted on 09/27/2003 2:37:13 PM PDT
"Issues of succession were often settled by force. One ruler murdered two sons and two brothers. Uprisings in 805 and 818 in Córdoba were answered with mass executions and the destruction of one of the city's suburbs. Wars were accompanied by plunder, kidnappings and ransom. Córdoba itself was finally sacked by Muslim Berbers in 1013, its epochal library destroyed."
"Islamic" Spain's "civilization" was enlightened only in comparison to the surrounding barbarism. Unfortunately for Islam, those surrounding barbarians became civilized, while Islam remained mired in its own fundamentalist barbarism--hence the situation today.
Muslims invaded Spain, killed most of the native population, and drove the rest up into the mountains. It took the Spaniards hundreds of years to reconquer their own country. Needless to say, none of this had anything to do with toleration.
One reason for prejudice against the Jews in the fifteenth century, ending with their expulsion in 1492, was that there was a life and death struggle against the Muslims, who still raided the Spanish coast, took slaves, and threatened to conquer the country a second time. No doubt some Jews were loyal, but others traded with the enemy. The Spanish had good reasons to be paranoid about loyalty in such a situation. It doesn't excuse their antisemitism, but it may help to explain it.
posted on 09/27/2003 2:51:24 PM PDT
To: quidnunc; All
Amazing that this would come from the NY Times. But in fact, although Visigothic Spain was the only Christian society destroyed by the Muslims, they also raided extensively - and in some places occupied - much of southern France (especially Provence) and Burgundy, as well as southern Italy.
The author fails to mention that the time period he is discussing, also fostered the beginning of the Spanish Inquisition, where "conversios" were treated as 2nd class sub-citizens, and who regularly found themselves subject to the will of the Inquisitorial Tribunal of whatever district they lived.
Jewish folks were also looked upon as Heretics, and those who refused to convert to Christianity, were "relaxed" as unrepentant Heretics.
Od course, conversion to Christianity really didn't mean much, as you were still considered "tainted" by Heretical past, and therefore, never deserving of trust.
Only those who could prove Limpieza de sangre "Old Christian" (which meant No Jewish, Moorish, or Heretic ancestory) were afforded "rights", everyone else was considered Marrano (or loosely translated, a Pig) undeserving of rights.
Granted, even with that, everyone, from the King, down to the lowest slave was forced to take the Oath of Obedience to the Holy Office.
Granted, the Secular Tribunals used more in the way of physically brutal tortures to gain confessions, unrestrained by the various restrictions placed on the Holy Office, Inquisitors could use many means at their disposal to force a Heretic to confess, and the accused had little or no rights in most cases to even know what it was they were accused of.
Fat corpora's women [have to turn] a glass house
And the Arabs have it made
All their women in veils, eyes glazed
Second Dark Age. Death of the USA.
Return of the family.
And the commune crapheads sit and whine
While the commons near my birthplace is now a police college
It's a second dark age.
Mark E. Smith, 1980
posted on 09/27/2003 3:43:58 PM PDT
just google the ottoman empire and see how peaceful islam is.
posted on 09/27/2003 4:55:24 PM PDT
(A BIG NOOOOOOOOOOOOO TO OUT-SOURCING)
»Ein angenehmes Märchen« -- Die Wiederentdeckung und Neugestaltung des muslimischen Spanien
A Pleasant Fairy Tale -- The Rediscovery and Redesign of Muslim Spain
I wish you all could read German. The article by Siegfried Kohlhammer, a German scholar of Islam, makes the NY Times article appear like very small beer.
A few choice morsels (in my translation):
"The rediscovery of the culture of Muslim Spain, and recognition of its meaning for European culture, as well as its idealization as a Golden Age of Tolerance, took place in the western World - in the 18th and 19th centuries."
"In the 18th century Europeans began to believe in Islamic tolerance and superior humanity, in the 19th century the Muslims followed suit, and in the 20th century the Islamic scholars finally joined them."
It's too bad that the article is so long, otherwise I'd love to translate it for FreeRepublic.
posted on 09/28/2003 12:31:23 AM PDT
(Edward Said is STILL DEAD -- hooray!)
But as many scholars have argued, this image is distorted. Even the Umayyad dynasty, begun by Abd al-Rahman in 756, was far from enlightened. Issues of succession were often settled by force. One ruler murdered two sons and two brothers.
What a shocking piece of news. It's a good thing nothing like this ever happened in Christendom.
/World class sarcasm
posted on 09/28/2003 7:53:20 AM PDT
(If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?)
"Offering democracy to an Arab is like bringing a horse to a steakhouse." -- Jeff Cooper
posted on 10/03/2003 2:02:08 PM PDT
(Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer === (Finally employed again! Whoopie))
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson