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The Neoconservative Cabal
AEI ^ | 9/3/03 | Joshua Muravchik

Posted on 09/28/2003 5:06:39 PM PDT by William McKinley

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1 posted on 09/28/2003 5:06:39 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: William McKinley
I come from the "neo" tradition but see myself as a conservative. The neos have helped to remake American conservatism to the point where its a viable, muscular, and winning philosophy to mainstream Americans. Europe and Canada have nothing quite like it. And liberals are flummoxed cause we are ex-Democrats and know how they think. And the ideas we have championed have made America feared and respected abroad and are helping to bring about an American renaissance at home. Three Cheers For American Conservatism!!!
2 posted on 09/28/2003 5:12:42 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop
...cause we are ex-Democrats...

That's what worries me. I've never been a Democrat. I've never been more than moderate as a Republican. I don't think I am a "Paleo-Con", but I am a "Conservative". Having said that, it begs the question; Why should "Moderate Conservatives" (Mod-Cons?) trust "Neo-Cons"?

3 posted on 09/28/2003 5:23:54 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: GOPJ; Pharmboy; reformed_democrat; RatherBiased.com; nopardons; Tamsey; Miss Marple; SwatTeam; ...
BBC Media Shenanigans/Anti-Semitism Alert! Search for the paragraph above that begins with "Perhaps the most dramatic effort to expose..."
4 posted on 09/28/2003 5:24:55 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: William McKinley
Hard to wade through the true, not true and opinionation.

But neo conservatism is not denied by the "cabal" listed here. They admit they were social and who knows what else liberals 10+ years ago. Google and news.google search on neocon, neoconservatives, and Rumsfeld plus, say, Feith, esp Perle, Wolf, Andrew Marshall, and a few other combos. This is how I was getting a lot of my news as I sought to understand some background issues re politics in DC.

They are very upfront. Elliot Abrams is part of this and I do not respect him for it, but he is additionally a brilliant writer giving many insights into this all (neocon.)

I only wonder how they grabbed control, if disagreement there (wonders never cease)

then why does the world call their presence (unarguable) controlling. Wish they'd go away myself, or crawl back to the demo worm holes.
5 posted on 09/28/2003 5:27:38 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: goldstategop
When you read or hear the phrase "neoconservative cabal," the writer or speaker is not discussing a political alignment. He's blaming everything on the Joooooooooooooooooooooooooooos
6 posted on 09/28/2003 5:28:13 PM PDT by Poohbah ("[Expletive deleted] 'em if they can't take a joke!" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: goldstategop; hchutch; dighton; Chancellor Palpatine
From the article:

Perhaps the most dramatic effort to expose the hidden Jewish interest underlying neocon ideas

Yup, it's all the fault of the FJBs.

7 posted on 09/28/2003 5:29:56 PM PDT by Poohbah ("[Expletive deleted] 'em if they can't take a joke!" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: inPhase
Balderdash.

As the article clearly points out, the term neoconservative as it is thrown about by people (apparently such as you) has no meaning.

There is no commonality of background, beliefs, or any other defining characteristic.

The old neoconservative movement was quite different than what the term now indicates. The current term doesn't seem to mean anything other than "hawk" or "someone the left and the paleocons don't like".

Some 'neocons' were liberals 10+ years ago. Many people derisively labelled 'neocons' today never have been.

8 posted on 09/28/2003 5:31:52 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: Poohbah
The evil space jews of the conspiracy strike again.
9 posted on 09/28/2003 5:33:00 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (Buddy Rydell from "Anger Management" is my new role model)
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To: Poohbah
From the article:

Perhaps the most dramatic effort to expose the hidden Jewish interest underlying neocon ideas

Yup, it's all the fault of the FJBs.

//////////////
Good catch. Apparently you have zeroed in on the operative phrase for the entire article. (Note, however, how the author cleverly BURIED this little tidbit in pages of stuffy prose.)
10 posted on 09/28/2003 5:35:18 PM PDT by BenR2 ((John 3:16: Still True Today.))
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To: William McKinley
Bump!
11 posted on 09/28/2003 5:35:47 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: Poohbah
I am confused by your reply.

Are you suggesting the author here is writing a hit piece against Jews?

If so, I assert that you have badly misread the piece.

12 posted on 09/28/2003 5:38:34 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: BenR2
Note, however, how the author cleverly BURIED this little tidbit in pages of stuffy prose.

The author himself is jewish and a rabid neocon to boot, are you implying that he is anti-semitic?

13 posted on 09/28/2003 5:42:29 PM PDT by zacyak
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To: Poohbah; Timesink; William McKinley; general_re; aculeus; veronica; All
IMHO, the title badly serves the article, which is not anti-neoconservative. The same goes for Perhaps the most dramatic effort to expose the hidden Jewish interest underlying neocon ideas, which should be read as "purported hidden Jewish interest," "alleged ~," or the like.
No neoconservative was elevated in office after September 11, as Churchill had been to prime minister after the collapse of the Munich agreement, but policies espoused by neoconservatives were embraced by the Bush administration. Was this because Bush learned them from the likes of Wolfowitz and Perle? Or did he and his top advisers--none of them known as a neocon--reach similar conclusions on their own? We may have to await the President's memoirs to learn the answer to that narrow question, but every American has reason to be grateful for the result.

14 posted on 09/28/2003 5:44:04 PM PDT by dighton (NLC™)
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To: BenR2
I am not sure what article you read.

This article is not anti-Jew.

15 posted on 09/28/2003 5:45:39 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: William McKinley
Protocols of the Elders of Neoconservatism.
16 posted on 09/28/2003 5:45:56 PM PDT by ellery
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To: goldstategop; elbucko; Poohbah; All
What, in 50 words, or less, defines a neo-conservative?

Please, anyone, a good, concise, non-derogatory definition.
17 posted on 09/28/2003 5:46:38 PM PDT by fqued (They spend spend spend, then tax tax tax; and where are the jobs? gone gone gone)
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To: William McKinley
Elizabeth Drew made a similar point, if more opaquely: Because some . . . of the neoconservatives are Jewish and virtually all are strong supporters of the Likud party's policies, the accusation has been made that their aim to "democratize" the region is driven by their desire to surround Israel with more sympathetic neighbors. Such a view would explain the otherwise puzzling statements by Wolfowitz and others before the [Iraq] war that "the road to peace in the Middle East goes through Baghdad."

Either the author, or Elizabeth Drew, or both, are trying to find a dark conspiracy in what seems to be a pretty sensible and straightforward view of the problems and possble solutions in the middle-east. Surely they do not hold the contrary position - that all of the problems for nearly 1 Billion people spread over millions of square miles is the result of problems affecting a couple of million occupying what could be no more than 100 square miles or so? It is like Davis blaming his problems on U.S. foreign policy in Antigua.

18 posted on 09/28/2003 5:49:10 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: dighton
Perhaps he should have put quoters around the 'hidden Jewish interest', but given that in the previous paragraph, less than 20 words before, he had used the terms egregious and explicit, the author probably felt it was unnecessary. As would have I.

As for the title, I guess it loses something in the context. The website I got it from is a hotbed of neoconservatism; there it would be taken as ironic or sarcastic. Here, where there is a contingent that is highly antagonistic, it may not have been the best title; but then they chose the title for their website, not this one.

19 posted on 09/28/2003 5:50:06 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: William McKinley
"Over the last months, the term "neoconservative" has been in the air as never before in its 30-year career."

This is largely because the Kultur War is fully engaged and pits the deconstructed Postmodernist Leftists against their arch rivals the Neo-cons.

What might ‘postmodern history’ look like?

* malleability of language and identity, undecideability, reflexivity (not objectivity), multiple voices...

* understanding conditions of judgement, writing, subjectivity without preset schema

* revelling in multiplicity and open-endedness...

http://www.arts.auckland.ac.nz/online/history300/lect7.html

20 posted on 09/28/2003 5:51:08 PM PDT by Helms ("Nietzsche's critique of ressentiment - the "self-poisoned mind" - fits Islam like a glove")
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To: AndyJackson
The author is pointing out what Elizabeth Drew was essentially doing.
21 posted on 09/28/2003 5:51:17 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: dighton
IMHO, the title badly serves the article, which is not anti-neoconservative.

I guess that you're one of the few who actually read this long piece; most of the others replying to it don't seem to have a clue as to what the author of it is really saying. Like Pavlov's dog, they see the word "Jew" in an article they don't understand (or haven't read) and start in with their spastic accusations of anti-semitism. Good thing they banned the Onion from this forum, I have a feeling the same people misinterpret the articles from there too.

22 posted on 09/28/2003 5:51:57 PM PDT by zacyak
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To: fqued
Before I even try, you have to answer me what you mean by your question.

Do you mean 'neoconservative' in the original sense, or the way it is used by-and-large today?

23 posted on 09/28/2003 5:52:29 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: William McKinley
btttttttttttttttttt
24 posted on 09/28/2003 5:53:08 PM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: William McKinley
another distinguishing characteristic is that neoconservatives put greater stock in the political and ideological aspects of conflict

This tells us nothing. Any intelligent strategist, as a result of our lessons in Vietnam, puts great stock in understanding the political and ideological aspects of a conflict. So did McArthur. So have all great strategists. This is hardly a definition of neo-conservatism, unless neo-conservatism means not being stupid.

25 posted on 09/28/2003 5:54:05 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Timesink; JohnGalt; sheltonmac; Burkeman1
Who makes up this potent faction? Within the administration, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz is usually identified as the key actor, together with Richard Perle, a member and until recently the chairman of the Defense Advisory Board. A handful of other high-level Bush appointees are often named as adherents of the neocon faith, including Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of State John Bolton, National Security Council staff member Elliott Abrams, and Vice Presidential aide Lewis "Scooter" Libby. The American Enterprise Institute (AEI, where I work), the Weekly Standard magazine, and William Kristol's Project for a New American Century--all three rent offices in the same building--are often described as constituting the movement's Washington command center.

Bump

Neoconservatism is the first variant of American conservatism in the past century that is in the "American grain." It is hopeful, not lugubrious; forward-looking, not nostalgic; and its general tone is cheerful, not grim or dyspeptic. Its 20th-century heroes tend to be TR, FDR, and Ronald Reagan--Irving Kristol

Sorry but I'm not part of any group that considers FDR a hero. Never mind the 'foreign policy', if that's what you want to call the current actions by the Bush administration

26 posted on 09/28/2003 5:55:30 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: zacyak; William McKinley
My "protocols" comment was meant to agree with the author that neo-con slanders often root in anti-Semitism. I should have specified that.
27 posted on 09/28/2003 5:56:03 PM PDT by ellery
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To: William McKinley
Neocons hang out together, main interest Israel. That is my opinion. They belong to the party of re-election also my opinion. The following is general, typical reading in the press, whether truth, untruth or opinion.

The ruling "cabal" refers to at least OSD's Perle, Wolf, Feith, Cambone. What I read and noted is typical,
e.g.,

http://washingtontimes.com/commentary/20030923-093039 9601r.htm

snippet

"...the armchair strategists whose knowledge of the Arab world didn;t match their Israeli expertise, had not thought through the Iraq war scenario betond the victory march through Bagdad..."

This is from the Washington Times not the Post.
28 posted on 09/28/2003 5:56:32 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: AndyJackson
"Puts great stock in" and "puts greater stock in" are not the same.

Let me give you a football analogy. Any intelligent football coach puts great stock in special teams and in running the ball. Bill Parcells puts greater stock in those things than most coaches.

29 posted on 09/28/2003 5:57:37 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: William McKinley
either way.
I am in my 50s, voted for Reagan, Bush, Dole, Bush.
I am a conservative, and I have seldom seem the word "neo-conservative" used in a non-disparaging way.
Hugh Hewitt did refer to himself that way once, but it was unclear to me if it was tongue-in-cheek or not.
I have never read a good, concise, non-disparaging definition.
30 posted on 09/28/2003 5:57:48 PM PDT by fqued (They spend spend spend, then tax tax tax; and where are the jobs? gone gone gone)
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To: William McKinley
The author is pointing out what Elizabeth Drew was essentially doing.

I know that. In doing so he provides a small window into his own view - which is likewise obscure. Going on at length about neo-conservatism, he tells us nothing about what neo-conservatism is.

31 posted on 09/28/2003 5:58:13 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: inPhase
The Washington Times is owned by the Moonies, who are rabid anti-Semites. I wouldn't put too much stock in their opinion of Israel-related issues.
32 posted on 09/28/2003 5:58:14 PM PDT by ellery
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To: Poohbah
"hidden Jewish interest underlying neocon ideas"

Irving Kristol, Jewish, is a/the godfather of Neoconservatism.

The again their are Jewish ideas of the Left as well. Notably Marx.

33 posted on 09/28/2003 5:58:17 PM PDT by Helms ("Nietzsche's critique of ressentiment - the "self-poisoned mind" - fits Islam like a glove")
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To: inPhase
That is my opinion.
You are intitled to your own opinion, no matter how ignorant it is. You are even welcome to post your opinion on a thread about an article that details exactly why your opinion is ignorant.
34 posted on 09/28/2003 5:59:27 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: William McKinley
Irving Kristol defined Neo-Cons as Liberals who were "mugged by reality" and changed course about 180 degrees.
35 posted on 09/28/2003 5:59:50 PM PDT by Helms ("Nietzsche's critique of ressentiment - the "self-poisoned mind" - fits Islam like a glove")
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To: zacyak; All
I guess that you're one of the few who actually read this long piece; most of the others replying to it don't seem to have a clue as to what the author of it is really saying. Like Pavlov's dog, they see the word "Jew" in an article they don't understand (or haven't read) and start in with their spastic accusations of anti-semitism.

If anyone's a bit trigger-happy, I don't blame them. Given the countless recent "neocons are the devil" articles, it's only natural, on seeing that headline, to think "Oh, ****, not this again!"

36 posted on 09/28/2003 6:00:48 PM PDT by dighton (NLC™)
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To: fqued
The old definition was a former liberal (a 'new' conservative) who was very concerned with preventing damage to the social order that seemed to be occurring thanks to the policies of the New Deal and thanks to the spread of communism and socialism. They did not share the same aversion to the use of government for these ideals as traditional conservatives did, but they shared many of the same goals as traditional conservatives.

The new definition seems to be "anyone the left or the paleocons wants to demonize as bloodthirsty and powermad. Especially the Jews."

37 posted on 09/28/2003 6:02:18 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: William McKinley
"puts greater stock in"

Greater than whom. Greater than paleos who have already been described as putting more stock in overwhelming force. You seem to feel that this author is saying something. He tries, but fails. I still don't know what neo-conservatism is that distinguishes it from any other effort to provide a rational explanation for our foreign policy.

38 posted on 09/28/2003 6:02:39 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: William McKinley
Paleo-print ping.
39 posted on 09/28/2003 6:04:00 PM PDT by sauropod (I love the women's movement. Especially walking behind it.)
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To: AndyJackson
I disagree with you wholeheartedly. He is responding to a label which has been foistered on people. It's like labelling a group of people something and then complaining when that group refuses to define the label.

One of his major points is one which I have made repeatedly-- the term neoconservative as it is used by the left and by the paleoconservatives has no meaning. You say he can't tell you what it is-- and that is because no one can. Any attempt to define neoconservatives omits the majority of the people who supposedly are neoconservatives.

40 posted on 09/28/2003 6:05:13 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: fqued
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism
41 posted on 09/28/2003 6:05:41 PM PDT by Helms ("Nietzsche's critique of ressentiment - the "self-poisoned mind" - fits Islam like a glove")
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To: billbears
"Its 20th-century heroes tend to be TR, FDR, and Ronald Reagan--Irving Kristol
Sorry but I'm not part of any group that considers FDR a hero."

Likewise, and think FDR a tragedy. Think we are homing in here though. FDR was a major SOCIAL LIBERAL. And neocons by and by are not all fiscal conservatives either. Only common theme appears to me to be Israel, for good or bad.
42 posted on 09/28/2003 6:05:41 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: AndyJackson
who have already been described as putting more stock in overwhelming force
Where?
43 posted on 09/28/2003 6:05:50 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: zacyak
most of the others replying to it don't seem to have a clue as to what the author of it is really saying

Well please explain it to us simpletons, becaus I find it to be just more apalling dreck. If he has a point, he might try to come out and make it.

44 posted on 09/28/2003 6:06:42 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: William McKinley
From the article: By contrast, conservatives of traditional bent are more inclined to favor the use of overwhelming force or none at all, and to be more concerned with "exit strategies."

It is no wonder you cannot find it though. The statement is wrong, and you would likely miss it because the article is atrocious.

45 posted on 09/28/2003 6:08:27 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
No, I missed it because I understand that paleoconservatism is not traditional conservatism. Paleoconservatism is younger and newer even than neoconservatism.

Hence your confusion.

46 posted on 09/28/2003 6:09:51 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: ellery
Thanks,
have my own opinion.
Prefer Times to the Post but only sample both.

I am a speed reader and read voraciously. Mental exercise.
47 posted on 09/28/2003 6:10:42 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: inPhase
Only common theme appears to me to be Israel, for good or bad.

Unfortunately, that's what I have a problem understanding sometimes. It seems the neocons are bound and determined to railroad through this 'roadmap' one way or another. And as someone that supports Israel, I can't see how giving their land to a bunch of squatters is doing anything more than making Israel acquiesce to terrorists

48 posted on 09/28/2003 6:10:52 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: William McKinley
the term neoconservative as it is used by the left and by the paleoconservatives has no meaning

I already know that. What concerns me is that there are people around who describe themselves as neo-cons, such as this author, who also have no clue what it means. All I can tell is that it is a tribal label. If it stands for something, this author sure doesn't know what it is.

49 posted on 09/28/2003 6:11:16 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: zacyak
Like Pavlov's dog, they see the word "Jew" in an article they don't understand (or haven't read) and start in with their spastic accusations of anti-semitism.

They do that to cover up their liberalism on domestic issues. For fun, ask them if they think that overall the New Deal was a good thing.

50 posted on 09/28/2003 6:12:13 PM PDT by jmc813 (McClintock is the only candidate who supports the entire Bill of Rights, including the 2nd Amendment)
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