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The Neoconservative Cabal
AEI ^ | 9/3/03 | Joshua Muravchik

Posted on 09/28/2003 5:06:39 PM PDT by William McKinley

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To: inPhase
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_(United_States)
101 posted on 09/28/2003 7:17:12 PM PDT by Helms (Can anyone, will anyone give me a lucrative or any kind of BOOK DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: fqued
I am a conservative, and I have seldom seem the word "neo-conservative" used in a non-disparaging way.

It is actually a name that they gave to themselves and use in self-reference when conversing with each other. Ironically they are almost always the first to object about pejorative connotations when somebody else refers to them with that same word.

102 posted on 09/28/2003 7:19:33 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: quidnunc
What an interesting article! Thanks for posting
103 posted on 09/28/2003 7:22:49 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: William McKinley
One could draw a parallel between today's neocons and the War Hawks of 1812 or imperialists of 1898. No one could plausibly maintain that John C.Calhoun or Theodore Roosevelt were Trotskyists or Straussians, but they did take over our foreign policy agenda with consequences that weren't always for the best.

Whether or not critics are right in general about neoconservatism and Trotskyism, they may well have Muravchik's number: his own "neoconservatism" may well be a continuation of his early socialist and revolutionary hopes. Given that he is a former head of the Young People's Socialist League, he is spectacularly ill-placed to refute accusations of radicalism made against neocons. Critics could well argue that he's never let go of his ambition to remake the world.

There's also plenty of room to question Muravchik's feeling that 911 confirmed the validity of neocon theories. It's to be expected that Muravchik would view it in that light, but he doesn't muster evidence to support his view. Force in international probably has been vindicated, if it ever needed to be, but just how, when, and where force should be applied is still a question for debate. Not every use of force will be successful, effective or appropriate.

104 posted on 09/28/2003 7:23:44 PM PDT by x
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To: risk
Let's take him at his word. He was agreeing that the two posts quoted are not in contradiction and represent what tpaine considers to be neoconservatism (and scary). First was:
"The main difference between them and leftists is what goals they want to achieve thru the power of government"
What are these goals? that is what the second picked up on:
American religious, political, and economic freedom is at the forefront of human advancement and transcends cultural boundaries.

Freedom abroad translates to safety and prosperity for Americans.

America's global power should be used to promote and defend this freedom.

It is this which he considers to be scary. I am not lying to you- he really does.
105 posted on 09/28/2003 7:24:39 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: AndyJackson; William McKinley
"if you think the primary people who use the label 'neoconservative' are the people who are labelled 'neoconservative', you are delusional."

This is starting to rock. Suggest you are ready for Stanislaw Lem's "Memoirs Found in a Bathtub",

will clear things right up for all.
106 posted on 09/28/2003 7:25:18 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: x
It would have been quite the trick for Calhoun to be a Trotskyist, no? :-)
107 posted on 09/28/2003 7:26:00 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: William McKinley
So, would you describe paleocons as non-interventionists, protectionists, closed borders types?
108 posted on 09/28/2003 7:27:01 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: x
I don't think that he is attempting to refute accusations of radicalism amongst neoconservatives. I think he is suggesting that ninety percent (to choose a number at random) of those called neocons aren't, and that the label as currently used has little meaning.

I can tell from the discussion here that many are ready to call me a neocon, despite the fact that I am not one. It has become a pejorative without meaning for entirely too many.

There's also plenty of room to question Muravchik's feeling that 911 confirmed the validity of neocon theories. It's to be expected that Muravchik would view it in that light, but he doesn't muster evidence to support his view. Force in international probably has been vindicated, if it ever needed to be, but just how, when, and where force should be applied is still a question for debate. Not every use of force will be successful, effective or appropriate.
Couldn't agree with you more on every single point in that paragraph.
109 posted on 09/28/2003 7:30:11 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Each of those descriptions fit. But together they do not form a definition.

And non0nterventionist is not strong enough.

110 posted on 09/28/2003 7:33:14 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: Helms
Amother good office door post
111 posted on 09/28/2003 7:34:28 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: William McKinley
I would then imagine than anyone whose beliefs are diametrically opposite to those basic descriptions would then be a "neo" conservative.

Please provide a better word than "non-interventionist".
112 posted on 09/28/2003 7:35:53 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: William McKinley
Barney Rubble
...
was getting suspicious of something like that..
113 posted on 09/28/2003 7:38:45 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: risk
I agree, WK.. Scary people, neo-cons.

What scares you?

Clowns that think democracy is our future. I'm a believer in our republic.

Are you afraid that all the comfort and stability won for your generation

Whoa boy! -- I was born in '36 and served 3 years in the US 503rd & 502nd. Some of my generaton fought, just as some of yours did, I'm sure. Are you claiming you fought for me?

by hardbitten American warriors from Tripoli to Khe San might slip away because we anger a few Arabs?

Get off your bandstand son. I'm criticizing neo-con political policy, not the defense of our nation.

Imagine that reaction on December 7th, 1941. "Oh gee, we shouldn't have imposed the oil embargo on those poor, downtrodden Japs." You might be surprised to know that anti-American propaganda has resurfaced in Asia along those very lines.

I'm not surprised much anymore by any of the silly rhetoric the neos put out.. Why has a neo tough guy, as you seem to style yourself, -- become their patsy?

114 posted on 09/28/2003 7:44:24 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Luis Gonzalez wrote: Please provide a better word than "non-interventionist".

Isolationist.

Here's my personal assessment of paleocons: They're the intellectual heirs of the Know-nothings, Copperheads and the America-Firsters.

In other words they're nativist, sympathetic to the Confederacy and isolationist.

115 posted on 09/28/2003 7:44:26 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
No, I do not accept the premise that someone whose views are diametrically opposed to what the paleos claim as their mantle is a neocon.

Despite the antipathy between the two groups, both have certain things in common, including a respect for the role of religion in life.

The word I would have used instead of non-interventionist is isolationist.

116 posted on 09/28/2003 7:45:17 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: quidnunc
In your opinion, who is/was the greatest conservative in the past thrity years or so?
117 posted on 09/28/2003 7:45:36 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: William McKinley
In your opinion, who is/was the greatest conservative in the past thirty years or so?
118 posted on 09/28/2003 7:46:29 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: William McKinley
""Is that the definition of neoconservative, then? Anyone who supports Israel is a neocon?"

"If that is the working definition of neocon, then I guess I am one, and proudly so. I am for the only functioning government in the Middle East that is not based upon totalitarianism.""

Thanks, just trying to understand.

But on the other hand not all who believe in Judaism or are linked by race (as they see it) are neoconservative which we all know.

Good forum. thanks.
119 posted on 09/28/2003 7:47:25 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: William McKinley
Ideologies are defined by their differences, not their commonalities.

120 posted on 09/28/2003 7:50:04 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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