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The Neoconservative Cabal
AEI ^ | 9/3/03 | Joshua Muravchik

Posted on 09/28/2003 5:06:39 PM PDT by William McKinley

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To: Luis Gonzalez
If that is what you think I am trying to convince you, then your reading comprehension is very poor.

I am no Dixiecrat.

My conservatism is the conservatism (as I have said about four or five times on this thread alone) of Burke and John Adams. I think LewRockwell.com is garbage.

141 posted on 09/28/2003 8:11:59 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: Luis Gonzalez
So why are you arguing vociferously with someone who agrees with your stance a lot more than he disagrees with it?
142 posted on 09/28/2003 8:12:37 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: goldstategop
Word!
143 posted on 09/28/2003 8:12:38 PM PDT by Hazzardgate (RIP Paul Kersey)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I would argue that it's the other way around. Zero government conservatives have been around since the whisky rebellion.
144 posted on 09/28/2003 8:13:58 PM PDT by risk
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To: William McKinley
"One whose outlook on life and politics is guided by distilling the lessons of history. A conservative is a person who realizes that before you tear down a fence, you understand why the fence was
constructed. A conservative is one who understands that all those before us knew is greater than
what any one of us knows now, and as such should be preserved. A conservative is also one who
realizes that history shows that change happens, and as such can't be and shouldn't be fought; rather
change should be managed to make sure that the baby isn't thrown out with the bathwater. "


Thanks for your thoughts.
Sound religious to me. Is a liberal one who ignores history like FDR?,
And if conservatives and liberals pay attention to history then that is not defining anything.
145 posted on 09/28/2003 8:14:11 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: William McKinley
You cannot define Adams, or any of the Founders as conservatives or liberals, the ideologies have shifted too much to make that connection.

Theoretically, the Founders were in fact Liberals as they sought to overthrow the status quo and set a new one in place.
146 posted on 09/28/2003 8:14:19 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Luis Gonzalez wrote: It's real simple. Paleocons are trying to lay claim to the mantle of "true conservatism" and to the Reagan legacy...nothing further from the truth. The paleo movement has no roots in anything resembling traditional conservatism.

For one thing, if Reragan was able to still comprehend the issues he would never have dreamed of siding with Arabdom against Israel.

147 posted on 09/28/2003 8:14:35 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: risk
"Zero government conservatives"

No such thing.

148 posted on 09/28/2003 8:16:30 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: nopardons
Who is FR?

If you mean the website, then I will invoke Rummy. The website is a computer program. It has no views or opinions. People have views and opinions.

From what I can tell, you are ascribing to me views I do not hold. So I am asking you, to please clarify what you are saying, and if you are saying I believe something in particular, please substantiate your assertion.

149 posted on 09/28/2003 8:16:45 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: Luis Gonzalez
In your opinion, who is/was the greatest conservative in the past thrity years or so?

Barry Goldwater, and Reagan would probably agree with me.

150 posted on 09/28/2003 8:17:03 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: William McKinley
Ronald Reagan is the definition of neocon.

Paleocons have more in common with the left, than with the right, and using the term "traditional conservatism" to describe a paleocon is absurd.
151 posted on 09/28/2003 8:19:12 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: William McKinley
don;t worry,
I do this without trying

or read.
152 posted on 09/28/2003 8:19:50 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: GOPcapitalist
"In your opinion, who is/was the greatest conservative in the past thirty years or so?"

Goldwater's run at the presidency was 40 years ago.

153 posted on 09/28/2003 8:20:58 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: fqued
I have never read a good, concise, non-disparaging definition.

You will never hear a "good, concise, non-disparaging definition" or neo-conservatism.

That's because no such definition exists.

The term "neocon" et. al are nothing more than an epithet.


101 things that the Mozilla browser can do that Internet Explorer cannot.

154 posted on 09/28/2003 8:22:02 PM PDT by rdb3 (One shot is not enough. It takes an uzi to move me.)
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To: William McKinley
"If you mean the website, then I will invoke Rummy. The website is a computer program. It has no views or opinions. People have views and opinions."

Then, by the same token, neither do political parties.

155 posted on 09/28/2003 8:22:18 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I disagree with you wholeheartedly.

Conservatism is, to me, not so much a poltical ideology as a way of thinking.

Yes, they were liberals in that they sought to break from the king. But many of them thought conservatively. If you read Adams, you cannot deny the conservative thought he embodied. Or maybe I am wrong and you can deny it, but you shouldn't be able to.

I said it earlier- a conservative is one who applies the learned lessons of history. Who knows you don't tear down a fence without knowing why it was put up. Who knows that if you don't learn from history, you will suffer the same pratfalls as have happened before. Who knows that change is inevitable, but should be managed to ensure that the baby doesn't get thrown out with the bathwater.

I appreciate how liberal the Founding Fathers were. History has proven them right, and their positions now are conservative positions, as any position history vindicates must be. But even liberalism can be done with a conservative mindset. That was the difference between Adams and Jefferson.

156 posted on 09/28/2003 8:23:19 PM PDT by William McKinley
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Goldwater's run at the presidency was 40 years ago

You said thirty years or so thus implying a little more or a little less than 30 exactly. Besides, Goldwater was active in the movement for decades beyond his presidential run in 64 and that would put him clearly under 30 years.

157 posted on 09/28/2003 8:23:22 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: quidnunc
"For one thing, if Reagan was able to still comprehend the issues he would never have dreamed of siding with Arabdom against Israel."

Most probably not.

158 posted on 09/28/2003 8:24:26 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: William McKinley
By FR, I mean many of its members, who have so missconstrued, missused, and jumbled the actual meaning of NEOCON, as to now make the term uncomprehensible.

One of THE founding fathers of that movement /term, has set the deffinition. Few here, or anywhere, now, use his deffinition.

I wasn't ascribing, per se, any view to YOU ! I simply stated the facts...that by the now corrupted deffinition of the term NEOCON, Ronald Reagan IS and was one. He started his political involvement as a DEM; an FDR Dem at that. Even after his party switch, he was still an ardent supporter of FDR. This, according to the now base deffinition, Reagan is a neocon. I can not say it any plainer.

159 posted on 09/28/2003 8:25:22 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I disagree with you on if Reagan was a neocon, unless the definition of neocon is "one who thinks like Reagan".

As for your second point, that using the term 'traditional conservative' to describe 'paleoconservative' is exactly the same point I made in post 46. Which leads me to ask you yet again- why are you arguing so vociferously with someone you appear to agree with? (Well, except on if Reagan was a traditional conservative or a neoconservative, and on if an ideology is defined by differences or beliefs).

160 posted on 09/28/2003 8:26:45 PM PDT by William McKinley
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