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Cardinal: Pope in "a bad way"
Reuters/Fox News ^

Posted on 09/30/2003 7:15:09 AM PDT by Dog

German Cardinal Says Pope 'In a Very Bad Way' Tue September 30, 2003 08:23 AM ET BERLIN (Reuters) - Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the German head of the Vatican body which oversees doctrinal matters, was quoted on Tuesday as saying Pope John Paul was in very poor health and the faithful should pray for him. "He is in a very bad way," Ratzinger told Germany's Bunte magazine in an interview. "We should pray for the pope."

Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, told the magazine that the 83-year-old pope had taken on too much, but he was unable to stop him.

The increasingly frail pope was particularly weak earlier this month on a trip to Slovakia and needed help reading his sermons. Last week, he skipped his general audience because of what the Vatican said was an intestinal problem.

Ratzinger's private secretary, Georg Gaenswein, said it was amazing how the pope, who suffers from Parkinson's Disease, kept going.

"He can't walk and stand anymore but he is a hero for the faithful. The fact that he doesn't give up despite his illness makes him even more credible," Gaenswein told Bunte.

He said the pope would not give up traveling. "When he is no longer allowed to travel, then dear God will come for him," Gaenswein said.

The leader of the world's one billion Roman Catholics, who marks his 25th anniversary next month, appointed 31 new cardinals on Sunday, possibly putting his last stamp on the group that will one day choose his successor.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: biggotry; catholic; catholicchurch; catholicism; catholiclist; dogma; johnpaul; nobel; nobelprize; pax; peace; pope; popejohnpaul; rc; rcc; romanempire; rome; snakehandling; vatican
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To: OldFriend
I, too was there in October of 1969 and heard him speak.
I'm not Christian either, but it certainly was awe-inspiring to be in Rome and Vatican City.
101 posted on 09/30/2003 10:53:20 AM PDT by stanz (Those who don't believe in evolution should go jump off the flat edge of the Earth.)
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To: biblewonk
Inwhich will enter wolves in sheeps clothing.

And?

102 posted on 09/30/2003 10:53:27 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan
Thank you for responding.

Citation? The Church's position is clear. All are saved by Christ. Non-Christians can be saved by implicit faith in Christ.

1. He did not deny that Christ had saved him. The Pope sat with other leaders of Religions in a group conference and clearly said in effect, "My spiritual walk has lead me to Christ, others lead down different paths as my friends here have, and I honor other religions that seek God." Not a direct quote but you get the Ecumenical flavor. I know Jesus wouldn't have left that barn door open that wide.

Maybe he could have done more. Who's to say? He has less control over bishops than you might believe. And he's running a Church with 1 billion members. He's not omniscient.

2. He would know there was a problem. It was well documented.

He gave evolution more credence as a scientific theory than I would have liked. But his statement made clear that it's still a theory. And he repudiated the theory of materialistic evolution.

3. What you say is true, but as I said "giving room" leaves the door open for #1, 2, 4, 5.

4. You will acknowledge among many Catholic segments Mary is revered much to highly by constituents, to their detriment. Life is in Christ, not Mary. The Pope should make that crystal clear, and he hasn't. Mary was blessed by God not blessed by herself.

No offense brother/sister. My church is far from perfect as well. Your responses exhibit to me a true seeker of Christ, and for that I am humbled. Praise God we all have Jesus to lean on.

103 posted on 09/30/2003 10:55:59 AM PDT by bondserv
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To: biblewonk
Could Christ the Saviour, God, be nourished from conception with the blood of one stained with sin? Could he pass through "the gate" if it were less than sinless?

While you're at it, please explain the Holy Trinity and cite its occurrence in the Bible as a concept.

Once you're done with that, please also cite where the word "bible" appears in the Bible...
104 posted on 09/30/2003 10:58:17 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: Aquinasfan
Do you ask others to pray for you? Do you pray for others?

Mary is dead, no disrespect of course.

I stick with living friends that I know are listening to me at the time. Dead people don't recieve omniscience at death.

105 posted on 09/30/2003 11:02:55 AM PDT by bondserv
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To: Campion
I am at work and don't have access to my books so will have to find the citation later. It may be from one of his encyclicals rather than a widely published book.
106 posted on 09/30/2003 11:05:24 AM PDT by ShakeNJake
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To: biblewonk
I certainly don't see him in this light but I also don't feel the need to hope for his death.

Well, if you feel the need for displays of ignorance, I guess that is your right. That JP II was the most important spiritual figure of the 20th century is beyond dispute. Does that annoy you?

I hope the RC church keeps up the Marianism. It is the biggest differentiating factor between bible based Christianity and Catholicism.

Actually, the biggest differentiating factor between Biblical Christianity and Catholicism is we still embrace the miracle of transubstantiation, but again senseless displays of ignorance are within your rights. Mary's role in Catholic theology pales in comparison to the emphasis placed on Holy Communion.

107 posted on 09/30/2003 11:05:51 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: dogbyte12
He is among the 2 or 3 dozen people most responsible for killing off the evil empire. I'm not sure what act or sacrifice I will make when he passes but something is required because he has made my life and my kids life better and people all through Europe are free, in part,because of the things he did.
108 posted on 09/30/2003 11:06:28 AM PDT by TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig ("I've got a feeling you've got a heart like mine. Let's stomp some rat ba!!$, you can let it shine.")
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To: bondserv
Mary is dead

If the dead in Christ are dead, Christianity is a big waste of ink, blood, time and effort.

"Oh death, where is thy sting?" -- St. Paul

"Shut up -- you're dead!" -- bondserv

109 posted on 09/30/2003 11:07:49 AM PDT by Campion
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To: presidio9
Actually, the biggest differentiating factor between Biblical Christianity and Catholicism

Uh, presidio, you walked into that one ... Biblical Christianity is Catholicism.

110 posted on 09/30/2003 11:08:52 AM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
Uh, presidio, you walked into that one ... Biblical Christianity is Catholicism.

Correct. But then how should we refer to Biblewonk's unique brand of worship?

111 posted on 09/30/2003 11:10:40 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: presidio9
The living water Jesus provided to the woman at the well was literal water? Did she physically drink Jesus siting there. The last supper established the figurativeness of the body and blood of Christ being bread and wine.

If Christ wanted the communion to be His literal flesh and blood, He would have picked up a knife not a loaf and a cup of wine. Context.
112 posted on 09/30/2003 11:12:33 AM PDT by bondserv
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To: bondserv
For the record: Are you saying that Christ lied?
113 posted on 09/30/2003 11:14:57 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: Rutles4Ever; newgeezer
Could Christ the Saviour, God, be nourished from conception with the blood of one stained with sin?

Yes

Could he pass through "the gate" if it were less than sinless?

Yes and don't be afraid to say vagina were mostly grown-ups here.

While you're at it, please explain the Holy Trinity and cite its occurrence in the Bible as a concept.

Why?

Once you're done with that, please also cite where the word "bible" appears in the Bible...

Why?

114 posted on 09/30/2003 11:16:05 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: presidio9; biblewonk
Correct. But then how should we refer to Biblewonk's unique brand of worship?

That would be BOPIOS, "Biblewonks Own Personal Interpretation of Scripture"

115 posted on 09/30/2003 11:18:55 AM PDT by NeoCaveman (Wesley Clark is to Eisenhower, what a Yugo is to a Ferrari)
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To: presidio9; biblewonk; Campion
Campion : Uh, presidio, you walked into that one ... Biblical Christianity is Catholicism.

presidio9 : Correct. But then how should we refer to Biblewonk's unique brand of worship?

"Unique brand"? Hah. That's a good one. Biblical Christianity fits just fine, thanks. The RC system is about as Biblical as, say, Mormonism.

116 posted on 09/30/2003 11:19:31 AM PDT by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. WORDS MEAN THINGS)
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To: Jack Black
Ignore the signs at your own risk. Double Eclipse Ramadan coupled with the Pope's possible death is too much to contemplate. Read about the meaning of the first ever double eclipse during Ramadan and what it supposedly portends here
117 posted on 09/30/2003 11:22:43 AM PDT by kinghorse
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To: presidio9
Well, if you feel the need for displays of ignorance, I guess that is your right. That JP II was the most important spiritual figure of the 20th century is beyond dispute. Does that annoy you?

You're making that statement doesn't annoy me much more than your saying Mary was immaculately conceived.

Actually, the biggest differentiating factor between Biblical Christianity and Catholicism is we still embrace the miracle of transubstantiation, but again senseless displays of ignorance are within your rights. Mary's role in Catholic theology pales in comparison to the emphasis placed on Holy Communion.

Well atleast you see that these things are not biblical. Communionschmunion, it' Mary that makes you guys so "special". Your beliefs about her are the very face of how RC doctrines are invented.

118 posted on 09/30/2003 11:26:57 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: Campion
If the dead in Christ are dead, Christianity is a big waste of ink, blood, time and effort.

"Oh death, where is thy sting?" -- St. Paul

"Shut up -- you're dead!" -- bondserv

HeHe! Very good. A correction was needed. Thank you.

However we can say that Mary is not omniscient, which is an attribute reserved for God. Omniscience would be required for her to hear all of the prayers sent her way. If ones prescence in heaven imputes omniscience, Satan would have a field day, every day.

1 Pet 3:12
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers:

There is never any mention of Saints praying to anyone but God in the scriptures. I'll go along with that pattern, it seems safer and more time cost effective.

119 posted on 09/30/2003 11:27:46 AM PDT by bondserv
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To: MinuteGal
Your words were beautiful Leni. The Nobel Peace Prize would be meaningless for a man of God, God's grace is infinitely more meaningful.
120 posted on 09/30/2003 11:32:30 AM PDT by Cronos (W2004)
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To: stanz
Remember that red material being lowered from the window. The Pope stepping into view and his voice booming over the square. Something I recall to this moment.

I was there in the Spring of 1969.

121 posted on 09/30/2003 11:33:30 AM PDT by OldFriend (DEMS INHABIT A PARALLEL UNIVERSE)
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To: Campion
Scripture says nothing like that. It does say, however, that the Church is one body, not many.

Part A: Scripture says that Paul was lead of the Spirit to go various places. Scripture also says that God is not a respecter of persons, That is, what he does for you he'll do for me, what he expects of Paul He expects of us. Each of us is directed to serve where He places us. How does a priest know he is supposed to be a priest? God calls him to that ministry. How do I know that I'm to serve at my pentecostal church? God called me to that ministry. Either all or called or none are called.

Part b: Correct. I included (church) more as a description of the particluar segment of the body of Christ rather than as a distinct identity. I consider all Christians (both Catholics and Protestants) as part of the same Church even though we attend different churches.

My point is that Scripture commands us to trust men, or at least submit to them in obedience if they are placed over us.

And yet we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God. If the pastor is not being scripturally accurate, and cannot defned in the scriptures why he is inaccurate then why should we trust him. Trust God, verify all others.

122 posted on 09/30/2003 11:34:38 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: germanicus
Germanicus, please use the word Muslim instead of Arab. There are many Arabs who are Christian: Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Syrian, Coptic churches are among the oldest congregations in the world. Also, most Muslims aren't Arab, they're Packistani, Indonesian etc.
123 posted on 09/30/2003 11:35:33 AM PDT by Cronos (W2004)
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To: Rutles4Ever
Most ironic of all, the concept of 'sola scriptura' appears nowhere in scripture.
124 posted on 09/30/2003 11:35:42 AM PDT by Petronski (Pummeluh pummeluh pummeluh)
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To: Aquinasfan
The pope reminds me of my 82-year-old mother-in-law who since retirement has spent 20 solid years watching soap operas and playing the slots. < /sarcasm>

LOL!!

Sounds like my mom.

(except she's not 82, and she plays video poker :)

125 posted on 09/30/2003 11:37:51 AM PDT by kstewskis (147 more days until Lent and "The Passion" is released...and no I am NOT giving Mel up for Lent!)
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To: MineralMan
The possible successors to Pope John Paul have been so numerous, I can't count, but I'm guessing that the new Pope will be non-European.
126 posted on 09/30/2003 11:37:55 AM PDT by Cronos (W2004)
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To: Jack Black
Do the Jews and Christians have the ability to turn water to blood? Or call down plagues?

(See also post 75 by Freeper Campion)

Jeremiah Jr was the properant of the Jews and Christians idea. I lean more towards Elijah and Moses.

I cannot answer whether the Jews can do these things. I know that the Christian can. Scripture tells us that we will do even greater works than Jesus did if we believe. Our problem is that few of us believe with enough faith.

127 posted on 09/30/2003 11:38:11 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: Petronski; newgeezer
Yes it does. Everytime Jesus criticized people for not knowing the scriptures and trusting tradition or common sense the concept is repeated.
128 posted on 09/30/2003 11:38:51 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: Campion
Your comments on the 'dark ages' ring true.
129 posted on 09/30/2003 11:39:45 AM PDT by Cronos (W2004)
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To: biblewonk
Well atleast you see that these things are not biblical. Communionschmunion, it' Mary that makes you guys so "special". Your beliefs about her are the very face of how RC doctrines are invented.

Again, your ignorance is astounding. Keep it up. I enjoy seeing you discredit yourself. It saves me the trouble of having to answer you ridiculous theological ramblings on a thread about a dying Holy man. I'm sure you have threads about your religion elsewhere in FR, and I am also sure that there are not a lot of Roman Catholics invading those threads and attacking your religion. Wanna know why? We could care less.

130 posted on 09/30/2003 11:41:31 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: Rutles4Ever
Reposting your point again:

As for the Blessed Virgin Mary, this is another brutal misconception of the Catholic faith. There is no more "worship" of Mary going on in Church, than there is of dead love ones whose pictures hang on the wall at home. Catholics honor and praise her for her free will acceptance of the seed of the Holy Spirit -- not a small undertaking for a 12 year old girl in Nazareth. Catholics refer to her as the "co-Redemptrix" not as an "equal", but as an assistant. God's plan was for Mary to be the Mother of His Son. She was necessary for Jesus' birth just as the cross was necessary for Jesus' death. The Redemption could not have taken place without her (in God's plan) just as the world could not be redeemed if Jesus died of a natural cause. It's a mystery, and it's hard for most people to accept, but that's how it is. If anything, we give her eternal gratitude. Her power is in her holiness, not in any kind of "Divinity". It's the same holiness that you and I can share with others if we live our lives right. That's the beauty of it.
131 posted on 09/30/2003 11:41:56 AM PDT by Cronos (W2004)
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To: newgeezer; Campion
The RC system is about as Biblical as, say, Mormonism.

In correct. It is all in the Good Book. You just interpret the Book differently. That is your right, but these silly theological discussions on a thread about a dying holy man are an indication of how insecure you so-called "Biblical Christians" really are about your faith.

132 posted on 09/30/2003 11:44:10 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: presidio9
Not enough patience or love to defend the faith huh? Islam is kinda like that too aren't they.
133 posted on 09/30/2003 11:45:52 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: Petronski
Most ironic of all, the concept of 'sola scriptura' appears nowhere in scripture.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 2:15-16
15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

How are we to know the vain babblings of men, by searching the scriptures to test what they say.

Acts 17:10-11
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

134 posted on 09/30/2003 11:47:16 AM PDT by bondserv
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To: biblewonk
"Well atleast you see that these things are not biblical. Communionschmunion, it' Mary that makes you guys so "special". Your beliefs about her are the very face of how RC doctrines are invented."

Your comments seem to me to be inappropriate in a thread about the impending death of a religious leader who represents scores of millions of Christians.

Can you not withhold your dislike for RCC beliefs for another thread? I'm sure there are threads more suited for a discussion of theological differences between sects of Christianity than this one.
135 posted on 09/30/2003 11:47:33 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: bondserv
"Sola scriptura" is 'scripture and nothing else.' Nothing you have quoted supports this. Your first quote speaks of the wisdom to be found in the God-given scriptures. Your second quote refers to you:

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Your third scripture refers as much to the Catholic Church as yourself. The scriptures are read every day in Mass.

136 posted on 09/30/2003 11:50:36 AM PDT by Petronski (Pummeluh pummeluh pummeluh)
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To: MineralMan
You guys sure have different ways of expressing yourselves. Is this good Catholic Bad Catholic or something? He picks a fight and you call me mean.
137 posted on 09/30/2003 11:50:51 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: bondserv
Dead people don't recieve omniscience at death.

Not omniscience. Only God has that. But can they hear our prayers and then offer them to God? Remember that they're in a glorified state outside of time. They're more "alive" than we are, and closer to God. Moreover, Scripture indicates that this is true:

Revelation 5:8

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty­four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.


138 posted on 09/30/2003 11:51:13 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: newgeezer
The RC system is about as Biblical as, say, Mormonism.

You either don't know Mormonism or you don't know Catholicism, or both.

Mormonism denies the very concept of God by asserting that "God" was once a man, that multiple "gods" exist, and that men today can become "gods". It denies the Trinity by insisting that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three "gods". It denies salvation by grace by asserting that one can work one's way to "godhood". It also claims that the Bible contains errors introduced by Rome.

Catholicism affirms the uniqueness and uncreated nature of God, denies the possibility of multiple "gods", affirms the Trinity (and always has), and insists that salvation is through God's grace alone (cf Augustine, Aquinas, and Trent if you don't believe me). It also insists that the Bible is without error in everything God wishes it to teach. (cf Dei Verbum, Vatican II)

139 posted on 09/30/2003 11:51:13 AM PDT by Campion
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To: presidio9
Actually, I find it strange that many of the points brought up by the REformation leaders are either:
1. Refuted earlier in the first and second century debates and heresies.
2. If more worldly then they have already been incorporated in the church.

MArtin Luther DID clean out the church, as did Francis of Assisi 300 years before him, the difference being that St. Francis did not divide Christ's flock.
140 posted on 09/30/2003 11:51:34 AM PDT by Cronos (W2004)
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To: bondserv; *Catholic_list
We gather in this thread to contemplate the life of a great man of faith who is apparently soon to depart us. Bondserv comes to hammer home HOPIOS.

And I have to be in a meeting in minutes.

141 posted on 09/30/2003 11:53:09 AM PDT by Petronski (Pummeluh pummeluh pummeluh)
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To: biblewonk
There is nothing to defend. Your assertion that the Virgin Birth is more important to Catholicism than Transubstantiation is idiotic. The primarily Catholic readers of this thread understand this. As such I refuse to address it. Your continued attempts at hijacking a thread about the failing health of a very devout and holy man who means a lot to most of us are an ongoing example of just how truley classless and Unchristian you can be. I am proud not to follow your religious beliefs if they can produce this type of behavior.
142 posted on 09/30/2003 11:54:18 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: presidio9
"Insecure"? Sounds like wishful thinking on your part.

But, thanks for the free psychoanalysis.

143 posted on 09/30/2003 11:54:18 AM PDT by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. WORDS MEAN THINGS)
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To: bondserv
Bond, most of the issues you've brought up have been raised in the early church. I'd suggest you google up on early church history and how it explained those points you raised and how it refuted heresies which were based on many of those points or others. MAtter of fact, all of us need to learn from the hisory of the church, so that's why the church emphasises that tradition plays a role, because that's how scripture has been debated and made more understandable to us mortals
144 posted on 09/30/2003 11:54:18 AM PDT by Cronos (W2004)
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To: Petronski
"Sola scriptura" is 'scripture and nothing else.' Nothing you have quoted supports this. Your first quote speaks of the wisdom to be found in the God-given scriptures. Your second quote refers to you:

Ok. Where the scripture speaks, it has clear precedence.

We are not talking about when to trim our toenails here.

145 posted on 09/30/2003 11:54:55 AM PDT by bondserv
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To: newgeezer
The RC system is about as Biblical as, say, Mormonism.

That's an incredibly silly thing to say.
146 posted on 09/30/2003 11:55:34 AM PDT by Cronos (W2004)
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To: biblewonk
"You guys sure have different ways of expressing yourselves. Is this good Catholic Bad Catholic or something? He picks a fight and you call me mean."

Who, me. Check my tagline.

My point is simple. People are saddened by the imminent death of their religious leader. Why not leave them alone? If you want to discuss what you see as fallacies in RCC theology, then why not start a thread about that?

Arguments regarding your beliefs are simply inappropriate in this thread.
147 posted on 09/30/2003 11:55:55 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: biblewonk
Everytime Jesus criticized people for not knowing the scriptures and trusting tradition or common sense the concept is repeated.

What do you make of these passages:

Matthew 23

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.

1 Corinthians 11:2

I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.


148 posted on 09/30/2003 11:56:14 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: biblewonk
RC doctrines = the beliefs of the church of the Apostles, along with the Eastern Orthodox churchs.
149 posted on 09/30/2003 11:56:27 AM PDT by Cronos (W2004)
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To: Notwithstanding
As a Lutheran, I respect the man who has shouldered a heavy burden during through a period where eras changed. He was a partisian fighter against the Nazi occupiers who watched his country enslaved, endured and finally break the chains of the Communist tyrany. He has also had to endure the deterioration of societal morals throughout Christendom and the rise of another Islamic Jihad...aided and abetted by "Christian Intellectuals".

His burdens have been fearsom and he has maintained his faith. While I may not agree with some of his positions, I respect his courage and fortitude.

I remember Pope John 23d fondly, but John Paul 2d I will remember with respect.

150 posted on 09/30/2003 11:56:31 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (Stir the pot...don't let anything settle to the bottom where the lawyers can feed off of it!)
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