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Cardinal: Pope in "a bad way"
Reuters/Fox News ^

Posted on 09/30/2003 7:15:09 AM PDT by Dog

German Cardinal Says Pope 'In a Very Bad Way' Tue September 30, 2003 08:23 AM ET BERLIN (Reuters) - Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the German head of the Vatican body which oversees doctrinal matters, was quoted on Tuesday as saying Pope John Paul was in very poor health and the faithful should pray for him. "He is in a very bad way," Ratzinger told Germany's Bunte magazine in an interview. "We should pray for the pope."

Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, told the magazine that the 83-year-old pope had taken on too much, but he was unable to stop him.

The increasingly frail pope was particularly weak earlier this month on a trip to Slovakia and needed help reading his sermons. Last week, he skipped his general audience because of what the Vatican said was an intestinal problem.

Ratzinger's private secretary, Georg Gaenswein, said it was amazing how the pope, who suffers from Parkinson's Disease, kept going.

"He can't walk and stand anymore but he is a hero for the faithful. The fact that he doesn't give up despite his illness makes him even more credible," Gaenswein told Bunte.

He said the pope would not give up traveling. "When he is no longer allowed to travel, then dear God will come for him," Gaenswein said.

The leader of the world's one billion Roman Catholics, who marks his 25th anniversary next month, appointed 31 new cardinals on Sunday, possibly putting his last stamp on the group that will one day choose his successor.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: biggotry; catholic; catholicchurch; catholicism; catholiclist; dogma; johnpaul; nobel; nobelprize; pax; peace; pope; popejohnpaul; rc; rcc; romanempire; rome; snakehandling; vatican
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To: presidio9
There is nothing to defend. Your assertion that the Virgin Birth is more important to Catholicism than Transubstantiation is idiotic.

Since I never said that it is you who seem to be the hijacker.

151 posted on 09/30/2003 11:56:50 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: newgeezer
"Insecure"? Sounds like wishful thinking on your part.

Yes, insecure. What other motivation could one have for attacking Catholic theology on a thread about the Pope's failing health. You must agree that your presence here is otherwise bizarre. Of you don't respect Catholicism, what special interest could the Pope's health possibly hold for you?

152 posted on 09/30/2003 11:56:55 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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Comment #153 Removed by Moderator

To: Cronos
If the apostles believed those things about Mary, you'd think they would have mentioned them.
154 posted on 09/30/2003 11:57:42 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: MineralMan
Good point: Can you not withhold your dislike for RCC beliefs for another thread? I'm sure there are threads more suited for a discussion of theological differences between sects of Christianity than this one. exactly, this is about a person who has tried to live like Christ and should be respected for that.
155 posted on 09/30/2003 11:59:16 AM PDT by Cronos (W2004)
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To: newgeezer
"Note how, all of a sudden, they all want to get back "on topic" (and we're supposed to be the "insecure" ones)?! ;O)"

Am I one of "them?" As an atheist, I'd say not. You want a comparative doctrine thread? Start one. The Pope is dying, and scores of millions of Catholics are upset by that. What's your point in coming into the thread to trash RCC doctrine?

Go somewhere else, please.
156 posted on 09/30/2003 12:00:24 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: newgeezer
"They" are hurting today. Their spiritual leader is failing and may well be dying. Do you think that you can let up on them a little?

I know it is going to be really lonely in heaven for you folks. Heck, even a Lutheran like me will not measure up to your exacting standards for purity, so I guess I will be joining my Roman Catholic Brethren in Hell, but for today, will you please lighten up and let them prepare to mourn?

Give it some prayerful consideration at least! Thanks!

157 posted on 09/30/2003 12:02:00 PM PDT by Redleg Duke (Stir the pot...don't let anything settle to the bottom where the lawyers can feed off of it!)
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To: Cronos
Thank you for your kind reply. I have done a modest amount of research on these topics, being a former altar boy, Irish RC.

A RC priest in Berlin Germany lead me to Christ when I was serving as an Altar boy and we were stationed there. He was a Godly old German man that spoke very good english.

He said, "Young man, you can go to Jesus for all of your needs. Never forget that."

Being an Altar boy doesn't make me an expert on the RC, but my parents are still Catholic and I am familiar with where the church has fallen short in so many areas of their lives. Scripture knowledge, being the greatest.
158 posted on 09/30/2003 12:03:53 PM PDT by bondserv
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To: biblewonk
Since I never said that it is you who seem to be the hijacker.

When confronted with the facts you resort to lying. This is exactly the classlessness I was talking about. Here is exactly what you said:

"Communionschmunion, it's Mary that makes you guys so "special". Your beliefs about her are the very face of how RC doctrines are invented."

Again, I am proud to have nothing to do with your form of worship. You deny the most important philosophical teaching of Christ, compassion, and you lie to get your own misguided message across.

159 posted on 09/30/2003 12:03:53 PM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: biblewonk
Would have made a difference if they had? Luke's gospel records that blessed Mary said "all generations to come shall call me blessed".

Yet you don't. Why?

160 posted on 09/30/2003 12:04:16 PM PDT by Campion
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To: bondserv
Scripture knowledge, being the greatest.

Knowledge of Scripture is a good thing, but it doesn't save anyone unless it's put into action.

Why put the blame on the Church for your parents' failure to educate themselves? The information is out there. All you have to do is pick up a phone or log on to a website and order it.

161 posted on 09/30/2003 12:06:59 PM PDT by Campion
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To: kinghorse
What does all this mean?

In the question lies the answer.

162 posted on 09/30/2003 12:08:03 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Law of the Excluded Middle)
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To: Campion
Yet you don't. Why?

Who says I don't think she was blessed but how does that become immaculate conception, dispensitrix of all graces, queen of heaven, assumed into heaven, ever virgin, able to hear and answer prayers and a hundred other things ascribed to her? It doesn't.

163 posted on 09/30/2003 12:08:55 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: MineralMan
Am I one of "them?" As an atheist, I'd say not. You want a comparative doctrine thread? Start one. The Pope is dying, and scores of millions of Catholics are upset by that. What's your point in coming into the thread to trash RCC doctrine?

Go somewhere else, please.

I fear your efforts are in vain here. You are asking the classless to show some class. News of the Pope's passing will delight this person. What's so Christian about that attitude?

164 posted on 09/30/2003 12:10:40 PM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: presidio9
I've done nothing of the sort. Your carnal reaction to a challenge is sure telling though. Your "who said anything bad about Catholicism" sensors are honed sharper than the Taliban. Criticize biblical Christianity and we will usually quote the bible.
165 posted on 09/30/2003 12:12:00 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: biblewonk
Then why do you just call her "Mary"?

As to your question: simple. Her Son was the Creator of the Universe, and also the One who commanded "Honor thy Father and thy Mother".

Think about what it means for God, who "does all things well," to honor his mother ... perfectly. Then go and do likewise.

166 posted on 09/30/2003 12:12:06 PM PDT by Campion
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To: biblewonk
"Who says I don't think she was blessed but how does that become immaculate conception, dispensitrix of all graces, queen of heaven, assumed into heaven, ever virgin, able to hear and answer prayers and a hundred other things ascribed to her? It doesn't.
"

Why do you care what people believe? You are not a Catholic. This is not a thread about RCC doctrine, nor do you have your facts straight about RCC doctrine in the first place. This is the thread about the impending death of the leader of the Roman Catholic Church.

Perhaps you've forgotten that. Perhaps you'd like to take your contempt for the beliefs of Roman Catholics somewhere else and broadcast it.
167 posted on 09/30/2003 12:12:16 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MineralMan; biblewonk
This is not a thread about RCC doctrine, nor do you have your facts straight about RCC doctrine in the first place.

Thank you.

You know, biblewonk...I've lurked on religious threads here for years. You are more obsessed with Mary than any Catholic I know - by far.

168 posted on 09/30/2003 12:15:29 PM PDT by RosieCotton
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To: presidio9
"I fear your efforts are in vain here. You are asking the classless to show some class. News of the Pope's passing will delight this person. What's so Christian about that attitude?

I suppose you're right, but I feel that I must make an effort. I'm not even a Christian, much less a Catholic, but I sure hate seeing a thread about the death of the leader of scores of millions of people hijacked by those who dislike what they think are the teachings of the RCC.

I'm saddened by the Pope's illness. I've seen four Popes in my lifetime, and seen three of them become Pope. It's clear that, as the leader of the largest denomination of Christianity, the Pope deserves respect, whether or not you hold the same beliefs.

I'm sad to see some Freepers take this occasion to begin another whining thread about their disagreement with RCC doctrine, or what they think is RCC doctrine. I wish they would take it somewhere else.
169 posted on 09/30/2003 12:15:56 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: biblewonk
Stop trying to make this about me. This is about your classless decision to attack Catholic doctrine on a thread about the Pope's failing health. The fact that you would intentionally spread lies about Catholic theology to an audience of mostly Catholics is a further testament to your charachter. The fact that you have twice now compared my behavior to that of those devoted to radical islam while trying to establish a discourse on how your method of worship is superior is symptomatic of that character.

(or lack thereof)

If there is such a thing, you are a sleazy "Christian."

170 posted on 09/30/2003 12:19:38 PM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: MineralMan
Your opinion is duly noted. Blessed are the peacemakers.

Acknowledge your Creator.
171 posted on 09/30/2003 12:20:00 PM PDT by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. WORDS MEAN THINGS)
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To: Cronos
Thank you, Cronos. I agree the Nobel Prize would not puff up the Pope. His life itself has been noble and no award could further embellish it.

I would hope the award bestowed on this Pope would inspire other world leaders and clerics to aspire to higher goals and to emulate John Paul as well as they can. Christian flocks everywhere would also be proud and would be invigorated, IMO.

Though the Nobel Prize has been debased for many years with awards given to those undeserving of it, John Paul's recognition would restore some of its original luster.

All this brings to mind Clintoon's nomination for the award and his subsequent attempts to buy it. Shameful! Thank God he didn't get away with it.

Leni

172 posted on 09/30/2003 12:22:20 PM PDT by MinuteGal
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To: OldFriend
Yes,I remember it vividly. Since I am quasi-fluent in Italian, I was translating his words as he spoke for my friend. I then realized, I had my own audience of American tourists. The natives were all screaming "Viva Il Papa" like he was some kind of rock star. Very interesting.
173 posted on 09/30/2003 12:22:32 PM PDT by stanz (Those who don't believe in evolution should go jump off the flat edge of the Earth.)
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To: newgeezer
"Your opinion is duly noted. Blessed are the peacemakers.

Acknowledge your Creator."

I acknowledge that millions believe in a Creator. I also acknowledge your quotation from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. If you are a Christian, then I recommend a close reading of that chapter of Matthew before beginning an attack on any denomination of Christianity.

Peacemaking and polite behavior around people who are mourning or even simply saddened at the impending death of a religious leader is not just a Christian attribute. It's simple common sense.

Try politeness in these threads, please. You'll find a ready ear and have politeness returned to you.

Acknowledge your social responsibilities.
174 posted on 09/30/2003 12:23:16 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MineralMan
Let me also thank you for you kind opinion. You personality is a lot more "Christian" than either of these two individuals. John Paul II is a great man, responsible for both spiritual and political change throughout his life. The world will be a poorer place without him.
175 posted on 09/30/2003 12:23:35 PM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: bondserv
2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The "man of God" referred to here is a priest. Citation of this passage also begs the question, "what is Scripture?" At the time that this letter was written, the Scriptures referred to the Old Testament. The New Testament was yet to be determined. Finally, this does not obviate the validity of Oral Tradition, which Paul mentions (2 Thes 2:15)

2 Tim 2:15-16

15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

This too begs the question regarding the canon of Scripture. Certainly "vain babblings" should be shunned, but this does not refer to the traditions passed down by the Apostles, as Paul states: "(2 Thessalonians 2:15) So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

How are we to know the vain babblings of men, by searching the scriptures to test what they say.

But Scripture warns us against the dangers of private interpretation of Scripture:

2 Peter 3

16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

This points out the necessity for an infallible interpretation of divine revelation. This role is appropriate for Christ's Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)."

Acts 17:10-11

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Again, they were searching the Old Testament. And this doesn't contradict the validity of Oral Tradition (as Paul states above).

176 posted on 09/30/2003 12:23:46 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: stanz
The early spring crowd was quiet and respectful. Lots of little girls in their communion dresses. It was quite a sight.....
177 posted on 09/30/2003 12:25:46 PM PDT by OldFriend (DEMS INHABIT A PARALLEL UNIVERSE)
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To: presidio9
"Let me also thank you for you kind opinion. You personality is a lot more "Christian" than either of these two individuals. John Paul II is a great man, responsible for both spiritual and political change throughout his life. The world will be a poorer place without him.
"

Thank you. Polite respect for religious leaders isn't exclusively a Christian quality. It's simply a recognition that many people revere this man, and that those people deserve our respect during a difficult time.

This Pope has steadfastly spoken for peace on the planet. Sometimes that speech angers some here on Free Republic, but the Pope is not a US citizen and has no particular responsibility to our nation, or to any other.

I admire that steadfastness, even when I may disagree with it. I've not heard this Pope every say a word in anger. I've seen nothing in him that deserves anything but respect.

Although I am a completely non-religious person, I recognize the importance religious belief has in people's lives. That, alone, is reason enough to be saddened when a great religious leader who speaks of peace is ill and close to death. It is also plenty of reason for those who have petty disagreements with the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church to hold their tongues at this time.

I consider Jesus' teachings about how to treat others to be the best stated of such teachings from any religion. It is a shame that more do not study them.
178 posted on 09/30/2003 12:30:33 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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Blah, not to get anyone's panties in a wad, but still pulling on the flame retardant jumpsuit. I've heard for years that the original word for "virgin" wasn't translated correctly. It really meant a woman who had not married, of course assuming that all women who had not yet married were to be virgins.

Any level headed responses welcomed. FYI, I was raised Catholic.
179 posted on 09/30/2003 12:31:06 PM PDT by mtbopfuyn
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To: Notwithstanding
We may not be have an allegiance to Rome, but we are Christians and most of can recognize a good man when we see one. Frankly, I have no patience for people who dwell on our disagreements, real and serious as they may be, instead of the greater part that we share with our Roman Catholic (and Orthodox) brethren.
180 posted on 09/30/2003 12:33:38 PM PDT by katana
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To: Campion
Why put the blame on the Church for your parents' failure to educate themselves? The information is out there. All you have to do is pick up a phone or log on to a website and order it.

To know God better one only needs to pick up their Bible. I pray that the priests will be lead by a new Pope to teach their sermons out of the Bible. It is good to be taught by a student of the word, who has dedicated their life to such persuits.

Isa 28:9-13
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

181 posted on 09/30/2003 12:34:38 PM PDT by bondserv
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To: kinghorse
That inevitably provokes comment, because of traditions that such a "double-eclipse" is a portent for some unusual event. Ithna'asheri Shi'ites, for example, believe that their Twelfth Imam will reappear after a Ramadan double-eclipse (although those two phenomena will supposedly take place in reverse order, with the solar one occurring in mid-month (5); that will require the moon to suddenly double its speed of movement after the onset of the Holy Month!)

In March/April 1894 (Ramadan 1311), Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (founder of the Ahmadiyya or Qadiani movement in Pakistan) interpreted a double-eclipse as a sign that he was a genuine modern-day prophet (6). ...

It will be interesting to see whether the two total eclipses scheduled to occur during Ramadan 1424 (AD November 2003) - are cited to support a claim similar to that made by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, or as proof of the significance of some extraordinary event.

Well some people will claim something, sure, but I am skeptical that it is already set up as the kick off point for the BIG ONE and appearance of the (moslem) savior.

The fun thing is we'll know for sure in a little while!

182 posted on 09/30/2003 12:35:13 PM PDT by Jack Black
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To: MineralMan
I, as a Catholic, thank you for your decorum. This is a thread about the Holy Father's declining health (my grandfather is the same age and he converted to Catholicism in his early 70s). I vaguely remember him becoming Pope when I was 5 years old because my devoutly Catholic maternal grandmother was quite excited by it. John Paul II is a man who has stood against the secular world and never wavered in his respect for life, he prays for those who would destroy him, and despite illness and age, has continued to spread the word of God everywhere he goes. Whether or not you are a Catholic, non-Catholic, Jew, whatever, it cannot be denied that he is a man of principle and compassion.

I get disgusted when I see the news of someone's ill health turn into 'my religion is better than yours, nana-boo-boo' within a handful of posts. So you don't like the Catholic Church--fine. Leave the doctrine and so on for another thread. There are times I want to join the name calling with words that would get me banned, but I restrain myself. Not because I am afraid of being banned per se (even though I would not like it), but because I have to stand before my Lord someday and account for what I have said and done.

183 posted on 09/30/2003 12:35:27 PM PDT by Okies love Dubya 2
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To: Delbert
I thought that there was some prophecy given in ancient church history that indicated the number of 'pope' what would serve and that the next pope after this one is to be the 'imperfect pope', or the one that heralds Christ rerurn.
184 posted on 09/30/2003 12:40:00 PM PDT by dglang
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To: bondserv
I pray that the priests will be lead by a new Pope to teach their sermons out of the Bible.

The current Pope already has. The General Instruction to the Roman Missal states clearly that the purpose of the homily at Mass is to expound on the readings, and their application to living a Christian life. A priest who doesn't do that is violating his instructions already. My pastor is quite faithful about it.

185 posted on 09/30/2003 12:40:09 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
Then why do you just call her "Mary"?

As to your question: simple. Her Son was the Creator of the Universe, and also the One who commanded "Honor thy Father and thy Mother".

Think about what it means for God, who "does all things well," to honor his mother ... perfectly. Then go and do likewise.

Anti-Marian verses

******************* Mother of God *************

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I had to add Gen 3 to build on mat 11:11. Both show that Jesus is not of Mary's seed since here we see that seed does NOT mean physical seed. If it did it would have to mean that for the serpent too.

Mat: 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

In other words He is not of Mary. She is not His mother genetically. He did not come from one of her eggs. Sure he came through her but he is not of her.

Mat 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:31-35 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for the.
and he answered them, saying, who is my mother, or my brethren?
And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother and my sister, and mother.

Luke 11:27,28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare these and the paps which thou has sucked.
but he said, Yea rather , blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Gal 4:22-31:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice that there really is a mother of the church and it isn't Mary! Once again Mary is not even mentioned.

Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisdec.

Heb 7: 1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Melchizedek is a type of Christ and is a priest of a higher order than Aaron. His priesthood is typified by being based on merit and not on blood and it is an eternal priesthood. This verse shows that in the sense of Jesus has no mother or father. Jesus has no mother or father physically like Melchizedek but in what sense if the Father His Father? We know that Jesus was not created so it is really positionally that the Father is His Father. This shows that the whole idea and title of "Mother of God" is anti-scriptural. b>

*************** Ever Virgin *************

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Normal reading of this says they had sex after she bore the Lord.

*********** Queen of Heaven *********

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

Jer 44:19 The women also said, "And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands' permission?"

Jer 44:25 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: "You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, "We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her." You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!'

Mat 22: 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:22

Luke 20:29

The fact that we are not given in marriage in heaven is repeated 3 times and usually with an exhortation about knowing the scriptures. The only reference to a queen of heaven is of a pagan idol. The rational for Mary being the Bride of the Holy Spirit is removed because we are not given in marriage in Heaven. The idea of her being Queen mother in heaven doesn’t work because if we don’t have wives in heaven, we don’t have kids in heaven. The Idea of Mary being the Mother of God and the wife of the Holy Spirit and the recipient of prayers makes her the 4th part of a man made quadiny.

****** Verses about Mary being assumed into heaven *****

None

******* Verses about Immaculate Conception of Mary *****

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

******* Verses about Mary distributing Grace ******

None

******* Verses that say to pray to dead people ******

None

186 posted on 09/30/2003 12:40:15 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: Okies love Dubya 2
"John Paul II is a man who has stood against the secular world and never wavered in his respect for life, he prays for those who would destroy him, and despite illness and age, has continued to spread the word of God everywhere he goes. Whether or not you are a Catholic, non-Catholic, Jew, whatever, it cannot be denied that he is a man of principle and compassion.
"

Yes. I disagree with some of the positions taken by the Roman Catholic Church, but have great respect for this man. The Pope is the only religious leader who has a worldwide congregation. There are Roman Catholics in every nation on this planet.

That puts the Pope in a sometimes difficult position, vis a vis secular governments. His role as a peacemaker is one that often puts him in a tough spot, but he is beholden to no country or government.

This Pope has the respect of all world leaders, simply because he has retained his independence. His patience helped end the Communist government of the Soviet Union, bringing a democratic system to countries, including his own Poland, which had not seen such a system before. That contribution, alone, should be enough to warrant the respect of everyone of good will.

Doctrine or no doctrine, Pope John Paul II is a true world leader. One need not agree with his religious beliefs to recognize that contribution. His passing will be a sad event, to be sure. I hope the next Pope has as much character and strength.
187 posted on 09/30/2003 12:41:57 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: biblewonk
This thread is not about Mary and various interpretations of her position, religiously. It is about the serious illness of Pope John Paul II. Do you have something to say about the topic?
188 posted on 09/30/2003 12:44:03 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MineralMan
I assume I'm free to respond to those who are talking to me, if you aren't interested fine.
189 posted on 09/30/2003 12:45:29 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: biblewonk
In other words He is not of Mary. She is not His mother genetically.

That's not Christianity then. It's some variety of the Docetist heresy. You've denied the human nature of Christ.

Funny, how YOPIOS always leads to a first-century heresy. The devil is not very original.

Elizabeth, in that same chapter in Luke, "filled with the Holy Spirit," calls blessed Mary "the mother of my Lord". Scripture demonstrates your error.

she is the mother of the real and true God -- Martin Luther, speaking of blessed Mary

190 posted on 09/30/2003 12:46:42 PM PDT by Campion
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To: presidio9
You're the one attacking me. If I were more Christ like and less Paul like I'd react with more grace.
191 posted on 09/30/2003 12:46:49 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: biblewonk
"I assume I'm free to respond to those who are talking to me, if you aren't interested fine."

As I am free to criticize your behavior in this thread. I will respond to whatever messages I wish, unless Jim Robinson or a moderator asks me not to.
192 posted on 09/30/2003 12:46:56 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Campion
Not true at all. I am not denying Christ's humanity. To say that it must be of her ovum is to say that Adam was not a man because there was no ovum there. In a different verse it is stated that God can raise up sons of Abraham from the stones. Same idea. I would never suggest such a thing if the verse didn't suggest it to me.
193 posted on 09/30/2003 12:48:37 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: MineralMan
Good, just so we all have the same rules. Now where was I?
194 posted on 09/30/2003 12:49:38 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssssstian)
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To: Campion
That's not Christianity then. It's some variety of the Docetist heresy. You've denied the human nature of Christ.

Scratch a Maryphobe and uncover a deficient Christology.

SD

195 posted on 09/30/2003 12:49:50 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Aquinasfan
The traditions of men must be held up to the light of scripture. Scripture is the standard that Paul so clearly designated them as. Paul's teachings were held up to the light of scripture and he pronounced those in Berea as more nobel.

There are so many passages in the Bible that tell us to personally study God's word, that this point is unassailable in it's persistance. The Holy Spirit oversaw both the writing, and the preservation of scripture. We can be confident that what we read in the 66 books that were cannonized, have been done so with the oversight of the Holy Spirit.

1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

17 Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
20 My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.
21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.
22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.
23 Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.
24 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.

25 My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.
26 I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.
27 Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.
28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.
29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.
31 I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O LORD, put me not to shame.
32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.
39 Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.
40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

196 posted on 09/30/2003 12:50:00 PM PDT by bondserv
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To: MineralMan
Re post 187: Nicely put!
197 posted on 09/30/2003 12:51:16 PM PDT by Okies love Dubya 2
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To: biblewonk
Not true at all. I am not denying Christ's humanity.

If He is not genetically related to His mother, then whom is He related to?

SD

198 posted on 09/30/2003 12:51:47 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: biblewonk
I am not attacking you, I am making a straightforward observation. You have no class, and if your method of worship compels you to dance on the grave of a good man like John Paul II, it can not have much value in developing morality. You have openly lied on this very thread and been caught in the act. Is that the grace you were talking about?
199 posted on 09/30/2003 12:52:15 PM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: bondserv
We can be confident that what we read in the 66 books that were cannonized, have been done so with the oversight of the Holy Spirit.

Where is this detailed in Scripture?

SD

200 posted on 09/30/2003 12:52:48 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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