Cardinal: Pope in "a bad way"

Reuters/Fox News ^

[Dog]

German Cardinal Says Pope 'In a Very Bad Way' Tue September 30, 2003 08:23 AM ET BERLIN (Reuters) - Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the German head of the Vatican body which oversees doctrinal matters, was quoted on Tuesday as saying Pope John Paul was in very poor health and the faithful should pray for him. "He is in a very bad way," Ratzinger told Germany's Bunte magazine in an interview. "We should pray for the pope."

Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, told the magazine that the 83-year-old pope had taken on too much, but he was unable to stop him.

The increasingly frail pope was particularly weak earlier this month on a trip to Slovakia and needed help reading his sermons. Last week, he skipped his general audience because of what the Vatican said was an intestinal problem.

Ratzinger's private secretary, Georg Gaenswein, said it was amazing how the pope, who suffers from Parkinson's Disease, kept going.

"He can't walk and stand anymore but he is a hero for the faithful. The fact that he doesn't give up despite his illness makes him even more credible," Gaenswein told Bunte.

He said the pope would not give up traveling. "When he is no longer allowed to travel, then dear God will come for him," Gaenswein said.

The leader of the world's one billion Roman Catholics, who marks his 25th anniversary next month, appointed 31 new cardinals on Sunday, possibly putting his last stamp on the group that will one day choose his successor.

[Campion]

I am not denying Christ's humanity.

You absolutely are. You are denying that he had a mother, despite all of the Scripture that explicitly says he did. Moreover, you make God endorse surrogate motherhood, a morally vile act.

Your "biblical Christianity" is neither one.

Your misinterpretation of the Hebrews passage about Melchizedek is hilarious. It's a great example of how someone who really doesn't understand Scripture can twist any sort of bizarre meaning out of it by taking one verse out of its full context. The reference is to the genealogy one had to produce to be a priest in the temple under the Old Law. It is not literally claiming that Melchizedek had no parents, but that he did not have to prove Levitical descent, since he was not under Mosaic law.

[katnip]

Are you one of those Snakehandler Christians?

Is that what your tag-line means?

[Delbert]

I havent been on this thread for about 2 hours. I come back and just look at this place! It's turning into a US vs Them thread regarding Catholicism. Too Bad. I'm not even Catholic and I have a great respect for this Pope. This should be taken to another thread.

[biblewonk]

How is Adam genetically related to? Who says Jesus has to be genetically related to His Mother? That verse sure says He is not. Since that verse says He is not related to her then that clearly leaves no one.

[newgeezer]

Since you insist on prolonging your lecture, I'll respond.

If you are correct in your atheistic assertion that there is no God, how do you presume to define "politeness" for me or anyone else? Without God, there is no true right or wrong; such things are simply a matter of perspective or opinion.

Perhaps you're relying on majority rule, society, or some such thing. If so, you'll just have to consider the possibility that I'm ahead of my time. No matter how harsh or impolite one might be toward you, you'll really have to wonder if it's just a preview of the 22nd Century society's politeness.

If we're trading reading recommendations, try Romans 1.

[presidio9]

I come back and just look at this place! It's turning into a US vs Them thread regarding Catholicism. Too Bad. I'm not even Catholic and I have a great respect for this Pope. This should be taken to another thread.

On the contrary: There are two misguided individuals who can not resist attacking Catholicism every chance they get. News of the Pope's death will bring them comfort and joy. Their version of Christianity is very foreign to me. On the other hand, they have been greatly outnumbered but Protestants and other Non-Catholics who have taken to opportunity to aknoledge the holiness of this Pope and their sorrow at his current condition. That attitude is very familiar to me as a Christian.

[ArrogantBustard]

Luke 1:26-33

²⁶ And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
²⁷ To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
²⁸ And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
²⁹ And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
³⁰ And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
³¹ And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
³² He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
³³ And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

She's his Mom. In every sense of the word. Even genetically. But you already knew that. It's other people that are uncomfortable with the Incarnation.

And what this has to do with the Pope's ill health, I haven't a clue.

May God grant him the Grace of final perseverance, and a crown of justice (2Tim4:8) when his race is finally run.

[MEGoody]

Wish they'd let Popes retire. This gentleman has been ill for a long time. Last time I saw him on TV, he was drooling. How sad.

[SoothingDave]

Since that verse says He is not related to her then that clearly leaves no one.

Then if Jesus is "clearly" unrelated to any existing human, in what way does He "redeem" humanity?

SD

[Campion]

Who says Jesus has to be genetically related to His Mother?

Human nature requires that he be genetically related to Adam and Eve. That's practically the definition of "human nature". Sorry.

The idea that Mary was just Jesus' surrogate mother is as toxic and unBiblical as the Mormon idea that she had physical intercourse with God the Father.

[MEGoody]

"Then why do you just call her "Mary"?"

Why would you call a sister in Christ anything else?

[Campion]

Why not obey Scripture?

[PaulZe]

verses about the EARTH being round: NONE

verses about the Earth being flat : Genesis chapter one

Do you believe the earth is flat?

[Bob Eimiller]

I thought Jesus taught us to believe as little children... Does your continued argument mean that only those that can read and interpret intellectually are saved? Or..should the uneducated let those that "tickle their ears" lead them to the Lord with their "human" interpretation?

I have been raised a Catholic and I have assimilated over the years that... Catholics study the "WORD" whom is Jesus... It seems those that study the "words" seem th be very judgemental, they have all the answers..hmmmm

I think a preschool child that opens a pictoral Bible to look at the pictures of Jesus will be touched as profoundly by the HOLY SPIRIT as any so called human "Bible Scholar". "Judge not lest you be judged."

Hmmm I wonder where I read that? Can you enlighten me?

[MineralMan]

"If you are correct in your atheistic assertion that there is no God, how do you presume to define "politeness" for me or anyone else? Without God, there is no true right or wrong; such things are simply a matter of perspective or opinion.

Perhaps you're relying on majority rule, society, or some such thing. If so, you'll just have to consider the possibility that I'm ahead of my time. No matter how harsh or impolite one might be toward you, you'll really have to wonder if it's just a preview of the 22nd Century society's politeness.

If we're trading reading recommendations, try Romans 1."

One need not believe in a deity to learn about being polite. Politeness is something that transcends religious beliefs, and you'll find that most every culture and society values polite behavior.

My mother taught me the basic rules of polite society before I was 5 years old. Play nice with others. Don't comment on people's appearance. Respect the beliefs of others. And above all, "If you can't say something nice about someone, keep your mouth shut."

What is going on here violates those basic rules. A man who has the respect of millions of people, on religious and secular grounds, is dying. As you may suspect, I disagree with the man's theological ideas, but this is neither the time nor place for a theological discussion. Out of respect for our fellow human beings, it is a time to express sympathy for their loss. If one cannot do that, in this thread, one should maintain silence. There will be other opportunities for you to wax eloquent about the errors of Roman Catholic doctrine.

As for your supposition that the 22nd Century world will abandon polite behavior, I hope you are wrong. I will not live to see that century, but in the 21st, I will continue to do as my mother taught me. I've found it to work very well in my relationships with a wide spectrum of people. Perhaps you've found the opposite to be true, but I doubt it.

As I said, there will be ample threads for you to discuss your disagreements with Roman Catholic doctrine. This is not one of those threads. This is a thread about a dying man and the feelings of those who respect and revere him.

Common courtesy is a good thing, I think.

[my_pointy_head_is_sharp]

Catholics honor and praise [Mary] for her free will acceptance of the seed of the Holy Spirit -- not a small undertaking for a 12 year old girl

12? Why do you say she was 12?

[germanicus]

Oops. You're right. I have several Chaldean and Christian Lebanese friends here in the Detroit area. I was using the Arab word more geographically than ethnically. Muslim it is.

[MEGoody]

"Why not obey Scripture?"

Sure I agree she is blessed. But I don't refer to her as 'blessed Mary' every time I talk about her. After all, we are all blessed in the Lord.

[biblewonk]

JR told me to stay off this thread.

[Netizen]

I lean more toward Elijah and Moses myself. But then we've discussed this before and will make no headway in convincing each other

I have thought that perhaps the two witnesses are Elijah and Enoch. Both were taken to heaven without dying....

[dglang]

I've just received an email from a close friend, Jim Bramlett, that contains the fo;;owing quote:

Quote: The rapidly declining health of Pope John Paul II makes one recall a prophecy delivered in 1963 at Garabandal, Spain. One of the then 14-year-old peasant visionaries, when informed of the death of Pope John XXIII, said: "Now only three popes are left", and, "one of those popes will have a very short reign". A few months later she reffirmed that the Blessed Virgin told her that "there will only be two more popes after Pope Paul VI". Pope John Paul I was the pope with the very short reign (1 month in 1978), thus verifying the visionary as a prophet of God (Deut. 18:21), and Pope John Paul II is that third pope. Unquote.

[newgeezer]

One need not believe in a deity to learn about being polite.

Absent a diety, your definition of polite is no better than mine. Your basis for polite vs. impolite -- right vs. wrong -- is temporal and subject to change. I guess I failed to make that point clear in my previous post. It could have saved you all that typing about peripheral trivia.

[bicycle thug]

He is a giant of the 20th Century. Just as the curtain drew down perceptibly on that span of time we were molded and glavanized by by the events of 9-11, so we shall see the same for his passing.

I remember only too well the day he was shot many years ago. It was one of the worst birthdays of my life. I was very heartened he lived.

He will have the legacy of not only being one of the best Popes ever, but one of the best human beings of his time.

Let the blessings be.

[presidio9]

JR told me to stay off this thread.

In that case I suggest you listen to him.

[Bob Eimiller]

Catholics "Revere" Mary we do not worship her.. The Hail Mary prayer is a 2 part prayer... the first part is the angel Gabriel proclaiming her to be the mother of Jesus...

the second part is an acknowledgement of the communion of saints ... those of us alive or those in Heaven...we ask Mary, the mother of God to pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death... we consider those we believe to be saints in heaven no differently than those of us on earth.. At the hour of my death I would certainly want the mother of God to be praying for me... especially if I can't pray for myself.

Finally... Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven... "You are "ROCK" and upon this "ROCK" I will build my Church...Whatever you loose on earth with be loosed in Heaven, whatever you hold bound will be held bound." (Confession? hmmm maybe...)

Peter..the first Pope consecrated Bishops and priests from the very beginning with the laying on of hands ..from Pope Peter 1 to John Paul 2 today... and unbroken chain of "tradition" and consecration from the "ROCK" (incidently...I believe Martin Luther was a monk..not a priest).

Tradition was the early Church...the first books of the New Testament weren't written until about 60 AD.

By the way..."The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it" Pedophile priests included.

[Jack Black]

Please post a link or source for your claims. I assume the peasant girls mentioned are the Fatima children, correct? I have never seen this mentioned previously in connection with Fatima.

[Jack Black]

You haven't studied philosophy much, have you? There are many moral systems not based on belief in God. YOU may not like them, but to say they can't exist is absurd. Also GOD centered moral systems change greatly over time. Look at what was considered 'Christian' in 500 A.D., 1500 A.D. and now. Not very similar. Buddhism, as a single example created a moral system that was used in the east for over a thousand years to govern societies.

[DollyCali]

Hi all. posted & earlier & commented on the ATRW that this thread had the potential to get a little "testy"..

hmmmmmmmmmmm.

religious/spiritual/scriptual discussion has that potential.

To quote someone (we all agree) we DO NOT LIKE.... can't we all just get along?.....

:)

Bicycle thug... I am a bicycle mama...... like the pix / quote on your profile page.

Most of you had thougthful passionate posts/ comments. God bless you all. God loves us all....

[DollyCali]

Hi all. posted & earlier & commented on the ATRW that this thread had the potential to get a little "testy"..

hmmmmmmmmmmm.

religious/spiritual/scriptual discussion has that potential.

To quote someone (we all agree) we DO NOT LIKE.... can't we all just get along?.....

:)

Bicycle thug... I am a bicycle mama...... like the pix / quote on your profile page.

Most of you had thougthful passionate posts/ comments. God bless you all. God loves us all....

[DollyCali]

Hi all. posted & earlier & commented on the ATRW that this thread had the potential to get a little "testy"..

hmmmmmmmmmmm.

religious/spiritual/scriptual discussion has that potential.

To quote someone (we all agree) we DO NOT LIKE.... can't we all just get along?.....

:)

Bicycle thug... I am a bicycle mama...... like the pix / quote on your profile page.

Most of you had thougthful passionate posts/ comments. God bless you all. God loves us all....

[newgeezer]

Yeah, whatever. Philosophy or not, my statement stands. Absent a diety [who wrote the rules and promises to enforce them], your definition of [right vs. wrong] is no better than mine.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what men have done in His name.

[presidio9]

religious/spiritual/scriptual discussion has that potential.

I appreciate the sentiment Dolly, I really do. But we Catholics no more worship the Pope than we do Mary. Hence, this was never truely a religious/spiritual/scriptual discussion. A man many of us care about (Catholics and otherwise) is near death. Certain individuals tried to use this thread to advance personal agendas. As has been pointed out by several persons, that was in exceedinly poor taste. As long as people show some degree of sensitivity, good manners, and class, sure we can get along. I have friends in every religious denomination you can possibly think of.

[newgeezer]

In that case I suggest you listen to him.

How thoughtful of you.

[Jack Black]

"I thought that there was some prophecy given in ancient church history that indicated the number of 'pope' what would serve and that the next pope after this one is to be the 'imperfect pope', or the one that heralds Christ rerurn."

Someone else posted part of the Fatima prophecy (I think) that may be what you are thinking of.

An older and perhaps better known prophecy on the popes is that of St. Malachi.

Maelmhaedhoc O’Morgair (latinized to Malachy) was born in Armagh, Ireland in 1094. In 1148, he died in the company of St. Bernard of Clairvaux, who was writing his biography (at the request of the Abbot of Mellifont.). This saint has become very well known on account of the prophecies he allegedly made regarding 112 future popes, while on a trip to visit to Pope Innocent II in Rome in 1139-40.

More about it at this link

According to this writing there is only to be two (or perhaps one) more popes. One is "Glory of the Olive" and the other "Peter of Rome". Here is some speculation on this: Future Pope?

[bicycle thug]

Thank you for your kind words, you brightened up the day. It is nice to know I am not the only one here with a bicycle fixation. (Nice CANnOndALE in your pictures by the way, us Klein owners always like the way they look as we smoke by them.) <./obligatory teasing>

Feel free to FReeper mail me if you want to talk about things like cycling. Who knows, perhaps it could even lead to a thriving thread on bicycling or road touring in the general interest forum. *GASP!* (To quote Col. Kurtz Oh, the horror...the horror )

[presidio9]

Here is a picture of Cardianl Joseph Ratzinger with the Holy Father. This picture was taken May 18th, 2003:

[mlmr]

Catholics have a different way about death than Prots and others. I speak as a cradle Catholic from a Stained Glass family who is now Prot. Catholics see no shame in infirmery and no celebration in death... at least not traditional Catholics...it is God's will and God's word to the end. In this perspective, the infirm have as much to teach us about bravery and righ living as the physically strong, perhaps more. That is the essence of Mother Theresa's message. And why the pope's battles towards death are valuable. For all life has dignity, even at its most difficult. I pray for Pope John Paul II.

[mlmr]

The prior, short-lived pope was Pope John-Paul. Prior to his reign, it was Pope PaulVI, and prior to this it was Pope JohnXXIII.

[LibKill]

I'm not Catholic (although many friends and relatives are), but I have always thought well of this Pope.

His moral stand against the real Evil Empire (Soviet Communism, for those who are too young to remember it), was nothing short of outstanding.

As for some of his objections to our U.S. policy in the last couple of years. I always reminded myself that he was getting on in years and that he was not an American.

He has done a lot of good. I'd put him up there with Reagan and Thatcher in worldly terms.

[ImaGraftedBranch]

Luther also removed Luke initially. Protestants later added it back. Not very inspired to take Luke away.

[Frank_2001]

Amen.

[nmh]

I'm sorry but I find it a tad sadistic to parade a man who is clearly failing fast. There is no dignity or respect for the individual in doing that. It accomplishes the opposite.

I'm not Catholic since I am Bible based however even from a secular perspective it is cruel. God's will be accomplished whether this man is paraded around or given some dignity through acknowledging that he is not up to the task anymore and letting him rest in private.

Thanks though for the other perspective.

[Int]

Ramadan features the extraordinary double eclipse this year.

"extraordinary double eclipse" - what's that about?

[Conservative til I die]

My friend, who is an atheist, nevertheless thinks it will be exciting for the both of us, 26 years old to be able to witness all that goes along with the conclaves that vote for the next Pope. As much as I will be saddened by Pope John Paul II's passing, I agree.

[Conservative til I die]

F U

[Conservative til I die]

1) When you're Pope you're Pope for life. Popes voluntarily stepping down has happened, but we're talking several centuries since the last time it happened. It would be shameful.

2) This Pope doesn't want to step down.

3) Are you saying the Pope posesses no dignity? Why? Because he's old? Because he's disabled?

You know, the atheists and pro-death folks would agree with you. The Pope uses his disabilities preceisely to illustrate the dignity that all people posess. Even the crippled and old.

[Conservative til I die]

As for a successor, while the Cardinals tend to be a bit quirky in their choices (usually doing the opposite of what you might think they would do), the Pope has benefitted from his long reign. Something like 95% of the Cardinals that can vote were appointed by him. Most of those are conservatives. He's stacked the deck.

[Conservative til I die]

Speaking of Rigalli, the Pope did say somewhat recently that his successor had not yet been appointed a Cardinal. Hmmm....

[Conservative til I die]

Isn't he thinking of St Malachi (?) and his prophecies, regarding the Pope after the next Pope being the last? If I am not mistaken, he would be named Pope Peter.

[Palladin]

You forgot #9:

The Cubs and the Red Sox finally made it into the playoffs.