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The Cooling World (Blast From The Past Archived Newsweek Article Warning About "Global Cooling")
Newsweek ^ | April 28, 1975

Posted on 10/02/2003 10:21:17 AM PDT by presidio9

There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production– with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas – parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia – where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon.

The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it. In England, farmers have seen their growing season decline by about two weeks since 1950, with a resultant overall loss in grain production estimated at up to 100,000 tons annually. During the same time, the average temperature around the equator has risen by a fraction of a degree – a fraction that in some areas can mean drought and desolation. Last April, in the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded, 148 twisters killed more than 300 people and caused half a billion dollars' worth of damage in 13 U.S. states.

To scientists, these seemingly disparate incidents represent the advance signs of fundamental changes in the world's weather. Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the trend, as well as over its specific impact on local weather conditions. But they are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century. If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic. “A major climatic change would force economic and social adjustments on a worldwide scale,” warns a recent report by the National Academy of Sciences, “because the global patterns of food production and population that have evolved are implicitly dependent on the climate of the present century.”

A survey completed last year by Dr. Murray Mitchell of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reveals a drop of half a degree in average ground temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere between 1945 and 1968. According to George Kukla of Columbia University, satellite photos indicated a sudden, large increase in Northern Hemisphere snow cover in the winter of 1971-72. And a study released last month by two NOAA scientists notes that the amount of sunshine reaching the ground in the continental U.S. diminished by 1.3% between 1964 and 1972.

To the layman, the relatively small changes in temperature and sunshine can be highly misleading. Reid Bryson of the University of Wisconsin points out that the Earth’s average temperature during the great Ice Ages was only about seven degrees lower than during its warmest eras – and that the present decline has taken the planet about a sixth of the way toward the Ice Age average. Others regard the cooling as a reversion to the “little ice age” conditions that brought bitter winters to much of Europe and northern America between 1600 and 1900 – years when the Thames used to freeze so solidly that Londoners roasted oxen on the ice and when iceboats sailed the Hudson River almost as far south as New York City.

Just what causes the onset of major and minor ice ages remains a mystery. “Our knowledge of the mechanisms of climatic change is at least as fragmentary as our data,” concedes the National Academy of Sciences report. “Not only are the basic scientific questions largely unanswered, but in many cases we do not yet know enough to pose the key questions.”

Meteorologists think that they can forecast the short-term results of the return to the norm of the last century. They begin by noting the slight drop in overall temperature that produces large numbers of pressure centers in the upper atmosphere. These break up the smooth flow of westerly winds over temperate areas. The stagnant air produced in this way causes an increase in extremes of local weather such as droughts, floods, extended dry spells, long freezes, delayed monsoons and even local temperature increases – all of which have a direct impact on food supplies.

“The world’s food-producing system,” warns Dr. James D. McQuigg of NOAA’s Center for Climatic and Environmental Assessment, “is much more sensitive to the weather variable than it was even five years ago.” Furthermore, the growth of world population and creation of new national boundaries make it impossible for starving peoples to migrate from their devastated fields, as they did during past famines.

Climatologists are pessimistic that political leaders will take any positive action to compensate for the climatic change, or even to allay its effects. They concede that some of the more spectacular solutions proposed, such as melting the Arctic ice cap by covering it with black soot or diverting arctic rivers, might create problems far greater than those they solve. But the scientists see few signs that government leaders anywhere are even prepared to take the simple measures of stockpiling food or of introducing the variables of climatic uncertainty into economic projections of future food supplies. The longer the planners delay, the more difficult will they find it to cope with climatic change once the results become grim reality.

Reprinted from Financial Post - Canada, Jun 21, 2000


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; Political Humor/Cartoons
KEYWORDS: climatechange; globalwarminghoax

1 posted on 10/02/2003 10:21:17 AM PDT by presidio9
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To: presidio9
Oh no, the sky is falling (again)!!

Some quotes from a "whacko environmentalist quotes" page
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/744607/posts?page=32

The continued rapid cooling of the earth since WWII is in accord with the increase in global air pollution associated with industrialization, mechanization, urbanization and exploding population. -- Reid Bryson, "Global Ecology; Readings towards a rational strategy for Man", (1971)


The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s, the world will undergo famines. Hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. Population control is the only answer -- Paul Ehrlich - The Population Bomb (1968)


I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000 -- Paul Ehrlich in (1969)


In ten years all important animal life in the sea will be extinct. Large areas of coastline will have to be evacuated because of the stench of dead fish. -- Paul Ehrlich, Earth Day (1970)


Before 1985, mankind will enter a genuine age of scarcity . . . in which the accessible supplies of many key minerals will be facing depletion -- Paul Ehrlich in (1976)


This [cooling] trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century -- Peter Gwynne, Newsweek 1976


There are ominous signs that the earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production - with serious political implications for just about every nation on earth. The drop in food production could begin quite soon... The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologist are hard-pressed to keep up with it. -- Newsweek, April 28, (1975)


This cooling has already killed hundreds of thousands of people. If it continues and no strong action is taken, it will cause world famine, world chaos and world war, and this could all come about before the year 2000. -- Lowell Ponte "The Cooling", 1976


If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but eleven degrees colder by the year 2000...This is about twice what it would take to put us in an ice age. -- Kenneth E.F. Watt on air pollution and global cooling, Earth Day (1970)








I guess this time they must be right, mustn't they? Sigh!!
2 posted on 10/02/2003 10:27:14 AM PDT by TMD (If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it's free!!)
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To: presidio9
Oh no, the sky is falling (again)!!

Some quotes from a "whacko environmentalist quotes" page
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/744607/posts?page=32

The continued rapid cooling of the earth since WWII is in accord with the increase in global air pollution associated with industrialization, mechanization, urbanization and exploding population. -- Reid Bryson, "Global Ecology; Readings towards a rational strategy for Man", (1971)


The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s, the world will undergo famines. Hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. Population control is the only answer -- Paul Ehrlich - The Population Bomb (1968)


I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000 -- Paul Ehrlich in (1969)


In ten years all important animal life in the sea will be extinct. Large areas of coastline will have to be evacuated because of the stench of dead fish. -- Paul Ehrlich, Earth Day (1970)


Before 1985, mankind will enter a genuine age of scarcity . . . in which the accessible supplies of many key minerals will be facing depletion -- Paul Ehrlich in (1976)


This [cooling] trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century -- Peter Gwynne, Newsweek 1976


There are ominous signs that the earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production - with serious political implications for just about every nation on earth. The drop in food production could begin quite soon... The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologist are hard-pressed to keep up with it. -- Newsweek, April 28, (1975)


This cooling has already killed hundreds of thousands of people. If it continues and no strong action is taken, it will cause world famine, world chaos and world war, and this could all come about before the year 2000. -- Lowell Ponte "The Cooling", 1976


If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but eleven degrees colder by the year 2000...This is about twice what it would take to put us in an ice age. -- Kenneth E.F. Watt on air pollution and global cooling, Earth Day (1970)








I guess this time they must be right, mustn't they? Sigh!!
3 posted on 10/02/2003 10:27:37 AM PDT by TMD (If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it's free!!)
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To: TMD
You inspired me to do an internet search on this global cooling phenomenon. It has me very concerned, because it stands to put a number of busy scientists out of work.
4 posted on 10/02/2003 10:34:16 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: TMD
You inspired me to do an internet search on this global cooling phenomenon. It has me very concerned, because it stands to put a number of busy scientists out of work.
5 posted on 10/02/2003 10:34:25 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: TMD
You inspired me to do an internet search on this global cooling phenomenon. It has me very concerned, because it stands to put a number of busy scientists out of work.
6 posted on 10/02/2003 10:34:40 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: All
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7 posted on 10/02/2003 10:42:45 AM PDT by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: presidio9
We had snow this morning, I guess it must be true!
8 posted on 10/02/2003 10:47:20 AM PDT by Kenton
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To: presidio9
Bump to play with later.
9 posted on 10/02/2003 10:50:57 AM PDT by meowmeow
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To: TMD
You inspired me to do an internet search on this global cooling phenomenon. It has me very concerned, because it stands to put a number of busy scientists out of work.
10 posted on 10/02/2003 10:53:53 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: TMD
These server problems are really starting to get on my nerves...
11 posted on 10/02/2003 10:55:04 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: presidio9
Just what causes the onset of major and minor ice ages remains a mystery. “Our knowledge of the mechanisms of climatic change is at least as fragmentary as our data,” concedes the National Academy of Sciences report. “Not only are the basic scientific questions largely unanswered, but in many cases we do not yet know enough to pose the key questions.”

No change there then.

12 posted on 10/02/2003 10:56:10 AM PDT by Flashman_at_the_charge
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To: presidio9
NEWS FLASH: Planet Earth is shrinking and if the process is unchecked within 10 years we will all be living in the backyard of some guy in India.

ENOUGH OF THIS CRAP ALREADY! Warming, cooling, shrinking, expanding which is it? The only thing for sure that is known is that the capacity to print "any-old crap" resembling science has reached titanic proportions.

Oh yea, I forgot, sinking, floating, stinking, farting, smelling, ad infinituming.
13 posted on 10/02/2003 11:41:45 AM PDT by ido_now
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To: TMD
The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s, the world will undergo famines. Hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. Population control is the only answer -- Paul Ehrlich - The Population Bomb (1968)

Additionally, "Stand On Zanzibar" (1968) John Brunner (Science Fiction, Hugo Award winner)

14 posted on 10/02/2003 11:49:56 AM PDT by Drammach
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To: presidio9
Ah yes, The Club of Rome. A group of arrogant, "Appres moi la deluge" Liberals who wanted to control every aspect of our daily lives to suit their particular doomsday theory.
15 posted on 10/02/2003 11:50:23 AM PDT by .cnI redruM ("We hang petty thieves, we elevate the great ones to public office." Aesop, 600BC)
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To: presidio9
In upper New York state, we are having November weather at the end of September and an early frost. As I look out the window, we have had about 1/2 inch of pea sized hail.

So much for global warming.

16 posted on 10/02/2003 11:51:13 AM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine (Now where did I put that Hudson Bay blanket?)
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To: presidio9
From about 1940 to about 1975, global temperatures decreased slightly.

"The time series shows the combined global land and marine surface temperature record from 1856 to 2002."

17 posted on 10/02/2003 11:57:05 AM PDT by cogitator
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reference bump
18 posted on 10/02/2003 12:35:43 PM PDT by GeorgiaYankee
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To: cogitator
So, yes, there has been a warming trend. What exactly is this thread supposed to prove?
19 posted on 10/02/2003 12:43:07 PM PDT by Kleon (You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: Kleon
That global climate science is nowhere near advanced enough to form a basis of sound policy decisions, but agenda-driven studies are being used anyway.
20 posted on 10/02/2003 12:51:34 PM PDT by m1911
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To: cogitator; presidio9

"The time series shows the combined global land and marine surface temperature record from 1856 to 2002."

And the following time series are representative of the change in global temperature record across the last 500 thousand years, note the minor uptick(i.e. 1856 to 2002 identified as "global warming") to a median temperature in an overall downtrend for the last 2400 years,

One's trend all depends on the time frame one wants to use to make a political point with.

 

Ice Ages & Astronomical Causes
Brief Introduction to the History of Climate
by Richard A. Muller

Figure 1-2 Climate of the last 2400 years

 

Figure 1-3 Climate of the last 12,000 years

Figure 1-4 Climate of the last 100,000 years

Figure 1-5 Climate for the last 420 kyr, from Vostok ice


21 posted on 10/02/2003 1:12:25 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
You've missed the point of my posting, AG. The thread began with a Newsweek article that discussed "global cooling" (notwithstanding that there was not really any peer-reviewed science during that period that suggested an actual cooling trend). I posted the graph to show that the global cooling suggestions were made due to a short period of time during the 20th century when the warming trend that commenced at about the turn of the century moderated. There have been suggestions that global temperatures during this time, particularly in the Northern Hemisphere, were influenced by sulfate aerosols as industrial production, commencing with the war effort in the early '40s and continuing into the "Baby Boom" post-war economy, was very strong with few emissions controls. There is also a possible relationship suggested with the Pacific Decadal Oscillation mode.

I have no intention of getting into a broader discussion of "global warming" on this thread. I know you're out there. I have had some distractions in my personal life that have temporarily detracted from my ability to post topics and discuss them fully on FR. This "condition" may persist for a few more weeks. But as time allows, I will be glad to continue discussion on the topic. Just not here, and not now.

22 posted on 10/02/2003 1:56:50 PM PDT by cogitator
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To: Kleon
So, yes, there has been a warming trend. What exactly is this thread supposed to prove?

See post 22, my reply to ancient_geezer.

23 posted on 10/02/2003 1:58:08 PM PDT by cogitator
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To: Victoria Delsoul; PatrickHenry; Quila; Rudder; donh; VadeRetro; RadioAstronomer; Travis McGee; ...

((((((growl)))))


24 posted on 10/02/2003 1:58:54 PM PDT by Sabertooth (No Drivers' Licences for Illegal Aliens. Petition SB60. http://www.saveourlicense.com/n_home.htm)
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To: presidio9; Sabertooth; *Global Warming Hoax
Yeah, yeah ... I know. Not 'Global Warming', but I think they'd like/WANT to see this one ...


25 posted on 10/02/2003 2:09:38 PM PDT by MeekOneGOP (Check out the Texas Chicken D 'RATS!: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/keyword/Redistricting)
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To: cogitator
Don't we all just love cop-outs in the form of cryptic indications of deeper knowledge that can not be revealed at this time...
26 posted on 10/02/2003 2:12:51 PM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: Drammach
Lest we not forget ... Soylent Green!
27 posted on 10/02/2003 2:53:08 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: presidio9
I remember this article from when it was printed and repeat it to everyone who agonizes over Global Warming.
28 posted on 10/02/2003 2:55:40 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Leave, Pat, Leave!)
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To: m1911
You said:

"That global climate science is nowhere near advanced enough to form a basis of sound policy decisions, but agenda-driven studies are being used anyway."

How advanced must it be? Unfortunatly, science will never be able to tell us exactly what will happen and when, but it can help gauge the risks. To me, the risks are great and the data sound. Policy needs to change. I'm with Arnold on this on, one of the only left-wing issues I do applaud him for.

I'm sorry, but the "global cooling" business is a typical strawman, often held up as a counter to pro-environment policy. The fact is, scientists disagree. And just because they disagree doesn't mean they are all wrong. Global cooling as a theory was wrong, and that is one of the reasons there was no enormous outcry in the scientific community when it was published.
29 posted on 10/02/2003 3:01:11 PM PDT by Kleon (You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: presidio9
I think it's safe to say that the climate in the future will be different than it is today. If it happens to be the same, go to future + 1.
30 posted on 10/02/2003 3:03:06 PM PDT by gitmo (Zero Tolerance = Intolerance)
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To: Kleon

Unfortunatly, science will never be able to tell us exactly what will happen and when, but it can help gauge the risks. To me, the risks are great and the data sound.

What data??

The only thing the global warming alarmism is riding on are cluged up computer models that don't agree with real world measurement and predict neither future not past Climates, nor do those models even agree when compared to each other.

refer: Global Warming Score Card

 

What risks are there of global warming within the capacity of man to effect a difference?

Mankind's impact is only 0.28% of Total Greenhouse effect

" There is no dispute at all about the fact that even if punctiliously observed, (the Kyoto Protocol) would have an imperceptible effect on future temperatures -- one-twentieth of a degree by 2050. "

Dr. S. Fred Singer, atmospheric physicist
Professor Emeritus of Environmental Sciences at the University of Virginia,
and former director of the US Weather Satellite Service;
in a Sept. 10, 2001 Letter to Editor, Wall Street Journal

 

Anthropogenic (man-made) Contribution to the "Greenhouse
Effect," expressed as % of Total (water vapor INCLUDED)

Based on concentrations (ppb) adjusted for heat retention characteristics  % of All Greenhouse Gases

% Natural

% Man-made

 Water vapor 95.000% 

 94.999%

0.001% 
 Carbon Dioxide (CO2) 3.618% 

 3.502%

0.117% 
 Methane (CH4) 0.360% 

 0.294%

0.066% 
 Nitrous Oxide (N2O) 0.950% 

 0.903%

0.047% 
 Misc. gases ( CFC's, etc.) 0.072% 

 0.025%

0.047% 
 Total 100.00% 

 99.72

0.28% 

 

CO2-Temperature Correlations

  • "(1) correlation does not prove causation, (2) cause must precede effect, and (3) when attempting to evaluate claims of causal relationships between different parameters, it is important to have as much data as possible in order to weed out spurious correlations.

    ***

    Consider, for example, the study of Fischer et al. (1999), who examined trends of atmospheric CO2 and air temperature derived from Antarctic ice core data that extended back in time a quarter of a million years.  Over this extended period, the three most dramatic warming events experienced on earth were those associated with the terminations of the last three ice ages; and for each of these climatic transitions, earth's air temperature rose well in advance of any increase in atmospheric CO2.  In fact, the air's CO2 content did not begin to rise until 400 to 1,000 years after the planet began to warm.  Such findings have been corroborated by Mudelsee (2001), who examined the leads/lags of atmospheric CO2 concentration and air temperature over an even longer time period, finding that variations in atmospheric CO2 concentration lagged behind variations in air temperature by 1,300 to 5,000 years over the past 420,000 years."

[ see also: Indermuhle et al. (2000), Monnin et al. (2001), Yokoyama et al. (2000), Clark and Mix (2000) ]

  • "Other studies periodically demonstrate a complete uncoupling of CO2 and temperature "

[see: Petit et al. (1999), Staufer et al. (1998), Cheddadi et al., (1998), Raymo et al., 1998, Pagani et al. (1999), Pearson and Palmer (1999), Pearson and Palmer, (2000) ]

  • "Considered in their entirety, these several results present a truly chaotic picture with respect to any possible effect that variations in atmospheric CO2 concentration may have on global temperature.  Clearly, atmospheric CO2 is not the all-important driver of global climate change the climate alarmists make it out to be."

 

Global warming and global dioxide emission and concentration:
a Granger causality analysis

http://isi-eh.usc.es/trabajos/122_41_fullpaper.pdf

  •  "We find, in opposition to previous studies, that there is no evidence of Granger causality from global carbon dioxide emission to global surface temperature. Further, we could not find robust empirical evidence for the causal nexus from global carbon dioxide concentration to global surface temperature."

Here Comes the Sun

"Carbon dioxide, the main culprit in the alleged greenhouse-gas warming, is not a "driver" of climate change at all. Indeed, in earlier research Jan Veizer, of the University of Ottawa and one of the co-authors of the GSA Today article, established that rather than forcing climate change, CO2 levels actually lag behind climatic temperatures, suggesting that global warming may cause carbon dioxide rather than the other way around."

***

"Veizer and Shaviv's greatest contribution is their time scale. They have examined the relationship of cosmic rays, solar activity and CO2, and climate change going back through thousands of major and minor coolings and warmings. They found a strong -- very strong -- correlation between cosmic rays, solar activity and climate change, but almost none between carbon dioxide and global temperature increases."

 


 

Indeed just what precise risks at all?

Petition Project: http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm

During the past 2 years, more than 17,100 basic and applied American scientists, two-thirds with advanced degrees, have signed the Global Warming Petition.

Specifically declaring:

"There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate."

Signers of this petition so far include 2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers, and environmental scientists (select this link for a listing of these individuals) who are especially well qualified to evaluate the effects of carbon dioxide on the Earth's atmosphere and climate.

Signers of this petition also include 5,017 scientists whose fields of specialization in chemistry, biochemistry, biology, and other life sciences (select this link for a listing of these individuals) make them especially well qualified to evaluate the effects of carbon dioxide upon the Earth's plant and animal life.

Nearly all of the initial 17,100 scientist signers have technical training suitable for the evaluation of the relevant research data, and many are trained in related fields.


31 posted on 10/02/2003 4:11:02 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: Kleon
I'm sorry, but the "global cooling" business is a typical strawman

Do you even know what a strawman is?

32 posted on 10/03/2003 6:42:32 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: presidio9
No, I just used it because it sounds nice--of course I do. global cooling is an easily refutable claim that is used to discredit global warming, the definition of a strawman.
33 posted on 10/03/2003 7:22:55 AM PDT by Kleon (You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: Kleon
Incorrect. Since we have no significant time-scale measures of Global Warming, Global Cooling is equally valid. They are both speculative, and I rightly treat them with the same level of seriousness.
34 posted on 10/03/2003 7:25:48 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: presidio9
In the absence of time-scale measures, I think we can look at data concerning the greenhouse effect and see some merit in the theory. We know the greenhouse effect exists, otherwise, the heat escaping from the earth would cause the planet to be inhospitable. Also, there is good data suggesting that pollutants caused by humans hold more heat than what is in the atmosphere naturally. I think the most serious problem is the concentration of methane, which has alomst doubled in the last decade.

I understand your position on this, and share concern over policy influenced by alarmists (who I think are overreacting) affecting production and capitalism. It is this dilema that motivated me to study policies concerning emissions. I'm neither a climatologist or an economist, but there are some options that could limit emissions while benefiting producers, namely creating a market for emmision permits, which can be traded and sold.



35 posted on 10/03/2003 7:50:11 AM PDT by Kleon (You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: Kleon
Those liberal alarmists have their hooks into you, that's for sure! There is plenty of evidence proving that nothing man does short of nuclear weapons can change the global enviornment. Nature takes care of itself.
36 posted on 10/03/2003 7:54:25 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: presidio9
Don't we all just love cop-outs in the form of cryptic indications of deeper knowledge that can not be revealed at this time...

My father was hospitalized with a serious condition. Give me a break! When I have the time (and I expect it to be sooner than later), I'll load my cannons with all the grape they can handle.

37 posted on 10/03/2003 7:58:35 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: Sabertooth
"We have met the enemy...and they are us."
(Pogo)
38 posted on 10/03/2003 8:08:50 AM PDT by Rudder
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To: cogitator
My father was hospitalized with a serious condition. Give me a break!

Prayers for your father.
I know better than to kick a man when he's down.

39 posted on 10/03/2003 8:18:09 AM PDT by presidio9 (Countdown to 27 World Championships...)
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To: Kleon
"...To me, the risks are great and the data sound. Policy needs to change...."

What do you think about the temperature date for the last 400,000 years from the Vostok ice core samples ?

BP = BEFORE PRESENT


40 posted on 10/03/2003 8:20:06 AM PDT by gatex
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To: cogitator
Sorry about your Dad -- prayers for a quick improvement.
41 posted on 10/03/2003 8:22:14 AM PDT by gatex
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To: gatex
Yes, I'm aware of that. It clearly shows that temperature fluctuation is a natural phenomenon. Therefore, one could come to the conclusion that a warming trend is natural and humans do not contribute by emiting CO2 in the atmosphere.

What is interesting is that this data corresponds with data showing percentage of CO2 in the air. So we know that fluctuations in temperature and CO2 are natural and real. What is most troubling is that CO2 is at a 100,000 year high.

Nature has adjusted to these fluctuations by using CO2 sinks (oceans for one). What will happen in the future when Nature can no longer cope with an excess of CO2?
42 posted on 10/03/2003 9:05:25 AM PDT by Kleon (You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows)
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To: gatex; presidio9
Thanks to both of you; I should have realized that it would be better to just come out and say what the problem is/was (he's getting better and may move from the hospital to a therapy facility soon) than to just allude to distractions.

But since you brought up the Vostok ice core, I just have to show some interesting data plots from it:

Comment: the ice core shows that over the past 400,000 years, atmospheric CO2 concentrations varied between an upper bound of ~290 ppm and a lower bound of ~190 ppm. Climate scientists are real interested in determining what determined those bounds. Atmospheric CO2 concentration is currently at ~370 ppm -- 80 ppm higher than that upper bound! But there is a lag time in the climate system. So the problem facing the climate science community is; what is the rapid increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration, out of the 400,000 year bounds, going to cause?

Here's the other plot (at the far right edge you can see how high current atmospheric CO2 concentrations are):

Comment: this shows that CO2 and temperature have been linked over the past 400,000 years. Most studies show that the warming was driven by other factors and that CO2 concentration responded to warming or cooling. The problem facing climate scientists now is that the CO2 rise is occurring in a nominally "stable" temperature regime, so it will be a forcing factor for climate change. How much the change will be, and how fast, is very uncertain.

This is the type of data I'd like to discuss with ancient_geezer. I just need some time to prepare a full treatment.

43 posted on 10/03/2003 9:05:51 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: Kleon
"What is most troubling is that CO2 is at a 100,000 year high."

It may not be as troubling as at first look, if we consider that the current 370 CO2 is only 22 percent higher that the highest 304 from Vostok ( as I recall from the table of data) (close to this on graph).

We don't know the accuracy of CO2 and Temperature data from 300,000 years ago. I suspect +/- 22 percent accuracy of the data would be very good. The ~304 years ago may have actually been ~370.

In fact, a couple of the web references state that the CO2 concentrations lag the temperature data by 1000 to 4000 years. This means that we need to learn much more.

But it all is very interesting.

44 posted on 10/03/2003 11:00:07 AM PDT by gatex
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To: cogitator
"Climate scientists are real interested in determining what determined those bounds. "

Those cycles are fascinating. I am glad to see these threads.

45 posted on 10/03/2003 11:12:23 AM PDT by gatex
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To: gatex
We don't know the accuracy of CO2 and Temperature data from 300,000 years ago. I suspect +/- 22 percent accuracy of the data would be very good. The ~304 years ago may have actually been ~370.

CO2 concentrations are not calculated from proxies; they are directly measured from bubbles trapped in the ice, and therefore are probably quite accurate. The temperature is determined from stable oxygen isotope ratios and is more uncertain.

46 posted on 10/03/2003 11:54:27 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: cogitator
"....CO2 concentrations are not calculated from proxies; they are directly measured from bubbles trapped in the ice...."

But here is an interesting statement ---"Because air bubbles do not close at the surface of the ice sheet but only near the firn-ice transition (that is, at ~90 m below the surface at Vostok), the air extracted from the ice is younger than the surrounding ice (Barnola et al. 1991). Using semiempirical models of densification applied to past Vostok climate conditions, Barnola et al. (1991) reported that the age difference between air and ice may be ~6000 years during the coldest periods instead of ~4000 years, as previously assumed."

Link --- first item in Google search on "Vostok ice"

I need to ponder this statement. Have any thoughts on this?

This is further down in the link ---"According to Barnola et al. (1991) and Petit et al. (1999) these measurements indicate that, at the beginning of the deglaciations, the CO2 increase either was in phase or lagged by less than ~1000 years with respect to the Antarctic temperature, whereas it clearly lagged behind the temperature at the onset of the glaciations. "

47 posted on 10/03/2003 5:01:31 PM PDT by gatex
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