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Photo of a moving, crying, not-quite-alive baby according to Cook County Circuit Court Judge Karen Thompson. Because the umbilical cord has not yet been cut, the baby is not "completely separated" from his or her mother.

1 posted on 10/02/2003 8:30:02 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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Aww man! Enough of the fundraiser posts!!!
Only YOU can make fundraiser posts go away. Please contribute!

2 posted on 10/02/2003 8:31:47 PM PDT by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: nickcarraway
Yes, the new "complete birth" abortion, distinct from the "partial birth" abortion.
3 posted on 10/02/2003 8:32:39 PM PDT by coloradan (Hence, etc.)
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To: nickcarraway; bunchofbs; JonathansMommie
What is wrong with these people?
4 posted on 10/02/2003 8:38:33 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Just because they're moving their lips doesn't mean they have anything to say)
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To: nickcarraway
and now of babies who are delivered but have not “established a separate and independent life,”

That means I can kill my kids now that I'm paying their college bills. After all, they haven't “established a separate and independent life.” The spinning and twisting the "Pro-abortion at any cost" lobby has to use is bizarre. It would be funny if it weren't so damned serious.

8 posted on 10/02/2003 8:42:55 PM PDT by TruthShallSetYouFree
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To: tpaine; JohnGalt; exodus
Related story
10 posted on 10/02/2003 8:43:32 PM PDT by thoughtomator (I told you so)
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To: nickcarraway
Cases like this will drive the backlash.

The thing about backlashes, is you rarely see them coming.
12 posted on 10/02/2003 8:47:49 PM PDT by Imal (I set my browser to "Maximum Sarcasm", then broke off the knob.)
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To: nickcarraway; 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; ...
Time to impeach the judge and the politician who appointed her. We were warned many yrs. ago about the communist and secular humanist intrusion into our society and nobody listened since they thought this stuff would never happen. Well it's happening and it's going to continue until something is done. The schools are inculcating naturalism and the culture of death in the class, students become: judges, lawyers, politicians and teachers as adults.

KAREN THOMPSON TOBIN - QUALIFIED
Judge Karen Thompson Tobin is "QUALIFIED" for retention as a Circuit Court Judge. Judge Tobin is a knowledgeable, thoughtful, hardworking and conscientious judge. She possesses an excellent temperament and is an asset to the bench.

http://www.chicagobar.org/public/news/10_11_00.asp
http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~archives/ABOLISH/rick-halperin/feb03/0095.html
http://www.crimlaw.org/defbrief231.html
http://keepandbeararms.com/news/kabanews/display_day_archive.asp?d=10%2F5%2F2001
14 posted on 10/02/2003 9:20:30 PM PDT by Coleus (Only half the patients who go into an abortion clinic come out alive.)
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To: nickcarraway
babies who are delivered but have not “established a separate and independent life,”

A baby who is breathing HAS established a separate and independent life, even if the placenta is still temporarily attatched. It is no longer only dependent on the umbilical cord and placenta for oxygen. If the mother was killed at that point, the baby could still live.

15 posted on 10/02/2003 9:21:33 PM PDT by knuthom
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To: nickcarraway
This is the most disgusting thing I've read in a long time.

By far.
18 posted on 10/02/2003 9:28:04 PM PDT by Brad’s Gramma (Have YOU had your Logan Fix today? Hehe)
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To: nickcarraway
Murder case might spur debate on abortion here and here and here

By John Patterson Daily Herald State Government Editor
Posted September 17, 2003

SPRINGFIELD -- If Elizabeth Ehlert's murder conviction is wiped out, Illinois' courts will have provided homicidal mothers a how-to guide for getting away with killing their babies, prosecutors told the Illinois Supreme Court on Tuesday.

Attorneys for Cook County State's Attorney Richard Devine are asking the state's high court to reinstate a first-degree murder conviction against Ehlert for the 1990 death of her daughter shortly after the baby was delivered at her Palatine home. Prosecutors allege she put the live infant in a garbage bag and tossed it in a creek behind her home. The baby was found dead two days later in one of the lakes at Twin Lakes Golf Course.

But an appeals court overturned her conviction late last year on the rationale it was never proved the baby was fully delivered and separated from Ehlert. The appeals court said under Illinois law there cannot be a murder victim until there is an individual life. Ehlert's attorneys asked the Illinois Supreme Court to uphold this ruling. Ehlert's defense maintains the baby died during complications. She could walk free if the Supreme Court agrees her conviction was a mistake.

The court's ruling has the potential to launch a full-blown debate on Illinois' abortion laws. The law determining when a baby is an independent life dates back to 1820 and says the baby must be completely separated from the mother. So far the General Assembly has not addressed the issue, leaving the court to decide if and how it should be modified.

Prosecutors said given current forensic and medical technology, the 183-year-old law no longer makes sense and should be overturned.

"What you have here is the horrific scenario in which a mother who doesn't want her baby delivers the baby, the baby is out and still connected by the cord, and under the complete separation doctrine ... she can kill that baby," said Peter D. Fischer, an assistant Cook County state's attorney. "She can stab it, she can strangle it, do anything and it's not murder. It's not intentional homicide of an unborn child because a mother can't be prosecuted for that. It's nothing."

"This killing of a full-term, 6-pound, 19-inch long baby is nothing and we believe that rule cannot stand in the modern age," he said.

Ehlert's attorneys, however, contend even if the court overturns the law, the justices cannot change how it applies to Ehlert's case. Doing so would violate constitutional rights, they said.

Allan R. Sincox, her state-appointed attorney, said the court faces two risks in deciding this case. If the justices leave the law the way it is, a woman could theoretically kill her child during the birth and escape prosecution. But if the law is changed, Sincox claims, a woman who has a stillbirth could be convicted of murder and sent to prison simply because someone claims the child was alive.

Sincox maintains Ehlert was never proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and the Supreme Court should uphold the appellate court's ruling. "This evidence is just simply too weak," he said.

Ehlert, who is now 44, was first convicted in 1993 by a jury and sentenced to prison for 58 years. But that conviction was overturned in 1995 on the grounds the prosecution presented prejudicial evidence that Ehlert had two abortions. She was tried again and convicted in a bench trial in 1998. Cook County Circuit Court Judge Karen Thompson Tobin sentenced her to a 30-year prison term. That conviction was overturned late last year leading to the current Supreme Court case.

Chief Justice Mary Ann McMorrow noted Ehlert has twice been convicted and openly questioned the appeals court's decision.

"Didn't the appellate court simply substitute its judgment for that of the trier of fact (judge)?" McMorrow asked during Tuesday's hearings.

Although the court heard arguments Tuesday, an opinion on the case may not come for several months.

Ehlert has been in custody at downstate Lincoln Correctional Center since 1993 and is eligible for parole in July 2005.

Baby: Mother up for parole in '05
19 posted on 10/02/2003 9:35:11 PM PDT by Coleus (Only half the patients who go into an abortion clinic come out alive.)
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To: nickcarraway; Torie; jwalsh07; AntiGuv; aristeides
In question is whether a six-pound, 19-inch baby girl was “completely separated” at delivery when her mother, Elizabeth Ehlert, killed her.

My daughter was born smaller and lighter than this.

In Japan, mothers aren't prosecuted for infaticide if the baby is 1 or 2. How long until a rogue judge cites that international standard?


22 posted on 10/02/2003 10:23:24 PM PDT by Sabertooth (No Drivers' Licences for Illegal Aliens. Petition SB60. http://www.saveourlicense.com/n_home.htm)
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To: nickcarraway
OMG
27 posted on 10/03/2003 6:10:00 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: nickcarraway
BTTT for life!
30 posted on 10/03/2003 6:38:05 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: nickcarraway
**Yes, the new "complete birth" abortion, distinct from the "partial birth" abortion.**

Oh, no, is this what the loophole dems are doing now?
31 posted on 10/03/2003 6:39:22 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: nickcarraway
The subject matter described in this article is gruesome beyond words. How can these people sleep at night? The Pope has constantly wanred us about a culture of death, as did Walker Percy. These murderers must be placed within reach of the law or else the law has no meaning.
32 posted on 10/03/2003 6:44:37 AM PDT by Puddleglum
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To: nickcarraway
Peter "Animal Rights" Singer would approve.
34 posted on 10/03/2003 6:59:29 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard
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To: nickcarraway
but have not “established a separate and independent life,” as required by Thompson

The F'in B!*%# should have her 'umbilical cord' to the taxpayers severed!
(At the least.)

35 posted on 10/03/2003 7:12:26 AM PDT by StriperSniper (The socialist revolution is almost complete.)
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To: nickcarraway
Part of everyone's prayers should be asking God Almighty's forgiveness for America's complicity in these atrocities.

I fear it will get worse for the unborn and even the newborn before it gets better.
36 posted on 10/03/2003 7:14:23 AM PDT by reagan_fanatic (Ain't Skeered...)
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To: nickcarraway
My second child was born 13 months ago this Sunday. The second his head popped out, he started crying. The doctor said that was strange (but not unheard of) because the baby's lungs are usually compressed from still being in the birth canal. That's why you don't hear them cry until they are completely out of the mother. So according to this judge (I am not going to call her a woman, because no real woman would say something like this), my son was not alive even though he was crying as soon as his head came out? I hate to think what she would say to the fact that I believe my children were alive the second they were conceived.

Disgusting.
37 posted on 10/03/2003 7:19:28 AM PDT by Okies love Dubya 2
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To: Javelina
Ping
38 posted on 10/03/2003 7:31:23 AM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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