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Magazine: Schwarzenegger Disrupted 1964 Neo-Nazi March in Graz, Austria
AFP via Yahoo! Germany ^ | October 3, 2003 | AFP

Posted on 10/03/2003 11:06:53 AM PDT by pogo101

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To: risk; Republican Red; pogo101
[Republican Red]: Isn't Nazism extreme left-wing?

[risk]: I'm so sick of reading this lie here on FR.

The Merriam-Webster definition of 'right-wing' is: "the rightist division of a group or party". Similarly, 'left-wing' is defined as: "the leftist division of a group (as a political party)".

However, the political leanings of 'right-wing' early twentieth century European political parties do not correspond to the terms 'Left' and 'Right' in American politics. The Nazis might have been 'right wing' in German politics but they were/are decidedly to the 'Left' of most Americans. If the Nazis were to appear as a political party in today's America, they would be most at home with the left wing of the Democrat Party.

101 posted on 10/04/2003 9:43:44 AM PDT by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
Even internationally, the Nazi party is on the right. Nazis, Imperial Japanese nationalists, and Italian fascists were as against marxism as anyone here on FR is. In fact, the Tripartite agreement had some merit in the sense that their main professed goal was to neutralize communism. Of course it was a lie, they also wanted to take over the world, and they accused America of being controlled by Jewish marxists.

Just a few of the precepts among the three Axis political systems that put them on the right:

1. Nationalism (not internationalism).
2. Racism.
3. State encouragement for massive, private industrialism.

Just because a political party advocates big government does not put them on the left. The obvious reason for Americans on the right to fear the notion that Nazis were right-wingers is that we, too, are nationalists. I myself appreciate the Anglo-Saxon heritage of our country. Republicans are usually very pro-industry. So the left can easily accuse us of being "too far to the right."

Yes, it could happen. And people who support the idea that Nazis are leftists are either secretly afraid of those accusations, or their heads are in the sand.
102 posted on 10/04/2003 2:42:36 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
I quite disagree with your assertions. Let's investigate some of the things the Nazis stood for. The Twenty-Five Points that Hitler helped write called for:

The nationalization of corporations and 'communalization' of large department stores
The expropriation of property without compensation
The suppression of newspapers that are 'damaging to the national welfare'
The abolition of interest on land mortgages and in income derived from interest payments

Know any Americans on the 'Right' that support these positions? Much of the Nazi philosphy also placed the good of the state above that of the individual.

Now let's look at John Toland's book Adolph Hitler.

On his own, Goebbels joined the Reds in a wildcat strike of Berlin transport workers asking for a pfennig or so an hour increase in pay. It was not the first time the two parties, with many goals in common, had fought together; and for the next few wet, raw days the Communists and the National Socialists ate communally on the picket line. Side by side they pelted rocks at strikebreakers, tore up streetcar tracks, and built barracades.

Many goals in common indeed. Goebbels is on record acknowledging that the Nazis were socialists. If it quacks like a duck, ...

Nazis, Imperial Japanese nationalists, and Italian fascists were as against marxism as anyone here on FR is.

I take it you are arguing that since these nationalistic parties were against international Marxism that they were therefore on the 'Right'. The political spectrum has more than two dimensions and more flavors than a quark. Nazism and communism are two parts of the socialist spectrum, both to the left of the mainstream American politics.

From the web site, Never Blame The Left, comes the following:

There is abundant evidence, what is more, that the Nazi leaders believed they were socialists and that anti-Nazi socialists often accepted that claim. In Mein Kampf (1926) Hitler accepted that National Socialism was a derivative of Marxism. The point was more bluntly made in private conversations. ``The whole of National Socialism is based on Marx,'' he told Hermann Rauschning. Rauschning later reported the remark in Hitler Speaks (1939), but by that time the world was at war and too busy to pay much attention to it. Goebbels too thought himself a socialist. Five days before the German invasion of the Soviet Union, in June 1941, he confided in his diary that ``real socialism'' would be established in that country after a Nazi victory, in place of Bolshevism and Czarism.

Nationalism? Racism? Encouragement of private industrialism? These you hold out as proofs that the Nazis were on the 'Right'?

Nationalism? Heck, many early socialists did not want to be a part of an international socialist regime. On an absolute scale their positions were still basically socialist, regardless of whether a local party controlled it or some international organization. (Hint: Socialism is on the 'Left'.)

Racism? Where is it written that racists are only on the 'Right'? I can see someone on the left trying to argue this, but it doesn't wash.

Encouraging private industrialism? Hitler was in favor of nationalizing corporations but later discovered he could achieve the same ends through strict government control. Nazism was not what I would call pro-capitalist or for decisions by industry free of government control.

103 posted on 10/04/2003 4:32:06 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: martin_fierro
"Du ist der Mensch!"

Getting pretty familiar there, aren't you?
104 posted on 10/04/2003 4:35:36 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: rustbucket
You missed my point. I wasn't accusing the American right of any misdeeds at all. I was pointing out that Nazis are right-wingers both internationally and within their own national mileu. So far you haven't proven 80 years of political science that proves my arguments to the contrary, you're just rehashing the old simplistic points used to flay the "Nazis were leftists" dead horse.
105 posted on 10/04/2003 4:41:12 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
You missed my point. I quite acknowledge the European naming convention of the early twentieth century. See my post 48 where I linked to an old letter of Lenin's referring to a portion of European socialist parties as right wing.

While the Nazis are on the so-called 'right' side of European socialist parties, their views and policies place them on the left side of the American political spectrum. If nothing else, it speaks volumes about how lucky we are not to be cursed with European political beliefs.

If you can refute the points of my previous post (Hitler's socialist positions in the Twenty-Five Points, the party's relationship to Marx, Goebbels acknowledging that Nazis were socialists), please do so. If these things are a 'dead horse' like you claim, then you don't have to worry about the dead horse that just ran three rings around you.

106 posted on 10/04/2003 6:42:31 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
It's easy: there are clearly things that right wing and left wing totalitarians do that are in common, including referring to their policies and form of state as "socialist."
107 posted on 10/04/2003 6:47:16 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
Perhaps we could agree to call the American 'right' the 'up' side of politics, and the American 'left' the 'down' side of politics. Then the whole European right-left argument could go on until the end of time, and nobody here would give a flip.
108 posted on 10/04/2003 7:09:55 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
I'm not ready to let go of the notion that politics is a sort of spectrum that wraps. As one goes to the extremes, the same kinds of problems arise. The extremes trade in human misery, but the roads they travel to get there are in opposite directions.
109 posted on 10/04/2003 7:14:52 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
On a scale that goes from the power and freedom of the individual on one end to the power of the collective or the state being supreme to the individual on the other, Nazis, fascists, socialists, communists, and totalitarians are toward one end of the scale and the American right is somewhere toward the other end. That is not to say that a totalitarian government couldn't arise out of the American right. It could, but we are probably in more danger of that from the Democrats.
110 posted on 10/04/2003 7:41:36 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: shadowman99
How does one confuse the "National SOCIALIST Worker's Party of Garmany" with a right wing group?

"NSDAP" was/is far right by definition. I believe that the term "right" is coming somehow from that era, whereby strong nationalistic views, superior race, extremely financial conservatism (investing back in the infrastructure, avoid exporting funds to foreign Banks etc., look out for the well been of your fellow country folks, unconditional government support-read "Mein Kampf").

Remember "Deutchland, Deutchland ueberalles" motto?-Germany, Germany overanybody ( almost sound like Busta-MEChA motto as well).

111 posted on 10/04/2003 8:12:57 PM PDT by danmar ("There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root" Thoreau)
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