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Both President Bushes and a Secret Society
CBSNews.com ^ | Oct. 5, 2003

Posted on 10/08/2003 9:39:35 PM PDT by EsclavoDeCristo

Skull And Bones Oct. 5, 2003

There are secrets that George W. Bush guards at least as carefully as any entrusted to a president.

He's forbidden to share these secrets even with the vice president -- secrets he has held ever since his days as an undergraduate at Yale.

In his senior year, Mr. Bush - like his father and his grandfather - belonged to Skull and Bones, an elite secret society that includes some of the most powerful men of the 20th century.

All Bonesmen, as they're called, are forbidden to reveal what goes on in their inner sanctum, the windowless building on the Yale campus that is called "The Tomb."

There are conspiracy theorists who see Skull and Bones behind everything that goes wrong, and occasionally even right in the world.

Apart from presidents, Bones has included cabinet officers, spies, Supreme Court justices, statesmen and captains of industry - and often their sons, and lately their daughters, too.

It’s a social and political network like no other. And they've responded to outsiders with utter silence – until an enterprising Yale graduate, Alexandra Robbins, managed to penetrate the wall of silence in her book, “Secrets of the Tomb.” Correspondent Morley Safer reports. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ”I spoke with about 100 members of Skull and Bones and they were members who were tired of the secrecy, and that's why they were willing to talk to me,” says Robbins. “But probably twice that number hung up on me, harassed me, or threatened me.”

Secret or not, Skull and Bones is as essential to Yale as the Whiffenpoofs, the tables down at a pub called Mory's, and the Yale mascot - that ever-slobbering bulldog.

Skull and Bones, with all its ritual and macabre relics, was founded in 1832 as a new world version of secret student societies that were common in Germany at the time. Since then, it has chosen or "tapped" only 15 senior students a year who become patriarchs when they graduate -- lifetime members of the ultimate old boys' club.

“Skull and Bones is so tiny. That's what makes this staggering,” says Robbins. “There are only 15 people a year, which means there are about 800 living members at any one time.”

But a lot of Bonesmen have gone on to positions of great power, which Robbins says is the main purpose of this secret society: to get as many members as possible into positions of power.

“They do have many individuals in influential positions,” says Robbins. “And that's why this is something that we need to know about.”

President Bush has tapped five fellow Bonesmen to join his administration. Most recently, he selected William Donaldson, Skull and Bones 1953, the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission. Like the President, he's taken the Bones oath of silence. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosenbaum, author and columnist for the New York Observer, has become obsessed with cracking that code of secrecy.

“I think there is a deep and legitimate distrust in America for power and privilege that are cloaked in secrecy. It's not supposed to be the way we do things,” says Rosenbaum. “We're supposed to do things out in the open in America. And so that any society or institution that hints that there is something hidden is, I think, a legitimate subject for investigation.”

His investigation is a 30-year obsession dating back to his days as a Yale classmate of George W. Bush. Rosenbaum, a self-described undergraduate nerd, was certainly not a contender for Bones. But he was fascinated by its weirdness.

“It's this sepulchral, tomblike, windowless, granite, sandstone bulk that you can't miss. And I lived next to it,” says Rosenbaum. “I had passed it all the time. And during the initiation rites, you could hear strange cries and whispers coming from the Skull and Bones tomb.”

Despite a lifetime of attempts to get inside, the best Rosenbaum could do was hide out on the ledge of a nearby building a few years ago to videotape a nocturnal initiation ceremony in the Tomb's courtyard.

“A woman holds a knife and pretends to slash the throat of another person lying down before them, and there's screaming and yelling at the neophytes,” he says.

Robbins says the cast of the initiation ritual is right out of Harry Potter meets Dracula: “There is a devil, a Don Quixote and a Pope who has one foot sheathed in a white monogrammed slipper resting on a stone skull. The initiates are led into the room one at a time. And once an initiate is inside, the Bonesmen shriek at him. Finally, the Bonesman is shoved to his knees in front of Don Quixote as the shrieking crowd falls silent. And Don Quixote lifts his sword and taps the Bonesman on his left shoulder and says, ‘By order of our order, I dub thee knight of Euloga.’"

It’s a lot of mumbo-jumbo, says Robbins, but it means a lot to the people who are in it.

“Prescott Bush, George W's grandfather, and a band of Bonesmen, robbed the grave of Geronimo, took the skull and some personal relics of the Apache Chief and brought them back to the tomb,” says Robbins. “There is still a glass case, Bonesmen tell me, within the tomb that displays a skull that they all refer to as Geronimo.”

“The preoccupation with bones, mortality, with coffins, lying in coffins, standing around coffins, all this sort of thing I think is designed to give them the sense that, and it's very true, life is short,” says Rosenbaum. “You can spend it, if you have a privileged background, enjoying yourself, contributing nothing, or you can spend it making a contribution.”

And plenty of Bonesmen have made a contribution, from William Howard Taft, the 27th President; Henry Luce, the founder of Time Magazine; and W. Averell Harriman, the diplomat and confidant of U.S. presidents.

“What's important about the undergraduate years of Skull and Bones, as opposed to fraternities, is that it imbues them with a kind of mission for moral leadership,” says Rosenbaum. “And it's something that they may ignore for 30 years of their life, as George W. Bush seemed to successfully ignore it for quite a long time. But he came back to it.”

Mr. Bush, like his father and grandfather before him, has refused to talk openly about Skull and Bones. But as a Bonesman, he was required to reveal his innermost secrets to his fellow Bones initiates.

“They're supposed to recount their entire sexual histories in sort of a dim, a dimly-lit cozy room. The other 14 members are sitting on plush couches, and the lights are dimmed,” says Robbins. “And there's a fire roaring. And the, this activity is supposed to last anywhere from between one to three hours.” -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What’s the point of this?

”I believe the point of the year in the tomb is to forge such a strong bond between these 15 new members that after they graduate, for them to betray Skull and Bones would mean they'd have to betray their fourteen closest friends,” says Robbins.

One can't help but make certain comparisons with the mafia, for example. Secret society, bonding, stakes may be a little higher in one than the other. But everybody knows everything about everybody, which is a form of protection.

“I think Skull and Bones has had slightly more success than the mafia in the sense that the leaders of the five families are all doing 100 years in jail, and the leaders of the Skull and Bones families are doing four and eight years in the White House,” says Rosenbaum.

Bones is not restricted to the Republican Party. Yet another Bonesman has his eye on the Oval Office: Senator John Kerry, Democrat, Skull & Bones 1966.

“It is fascinating isn't it? I mean, again, all the people say, ‘Oh, these societies don't matter. The Eastern Establishment is in decline.’ And you could not find two more quintessential Eastern establishment, privileged guys,” says Rosenbaum. “I remember when I was a nerdy scholarship student in the reserve book room at, at the Yale Library, and John Kerry, who at that point styled himself ‘John F. Kerry’ would walk in.”

“There was always a little buzz,” adds Rosenbaum. “Because even then he was seen to be destined for higher things. He was head of the Yale Political Union, and a tap for Skull and Bones was seen as the natural sequel to that.” -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Brooks, a conservative commentator who has published a book on the social dynamics of the upwardly mobile, says that while Skull & Bones may be elite and secret, it's anything but exciting.

“My view of secret societies is they're like the first class cabin in airplanes. They're really impressive until you get into them, and then once you're there they're a little dull. So you hear all these conspiracy theories about Skull and Bones,” says Brooks.

“And to me, to be in one of these organizations, you have to have an incredibly high tolerance for tedium 'cause you're sittin' around talking, talking, and talking. You're not running the world, you're just gassing.”

Gassing or not, the best-connected white man's club in America has moved reluctantly into the 21st Century.

“Skull and Bones narrowly endorsed admitting women,” says Robbins. “The day before these women were supposed to be initiated, a group of Bonesmen, including William F. Buckley, obtained a court order to block the initiation claiming that letting women into the tomb would lead to date rape. Again more legal wrangling; finally it came down to another vote and women were admitted and initiated.”

But Skull & Bones now has women, and it’s become more multicultural.

“It has gays who got the SAT scores, it's got the gays who got the straight A's,” says Brooks. “It's got the blacks who are the president of the right associations. It's different criteria. More multicultural, but it's still an elite, selective institution.”

On balance, it may be bizarre, but on a certain perspective, does it provide something of value?

“You take these young strivers, you put them in this weird castle. They spill their guts with each other, fine. But they learn something beyond themselves. They learn a commitment to each other, they learn a commitment to the community,” says Brooks. “And maybe they inherit some of those old ideals of public service that are missing in a lot of other parts of the country.”

And is that relationship, in some cases, stronger that family or faith?

“Absolutely,” says Robbins. “You know, they say, they say the motto at Yale is, ‘For God, for country, and for Yale.’ At Bones, I would think it's ‘For Bones.'”


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: 2004election; boycott; boycottviacom; bushbashing; cbs; cbsnews; cbsviacom; conspiracy; dirtypolitics; dnctalkingpoints; election2004; emptyv; fud; mediabias; mtv; nick; ratherbiased; rockthevote; scaretactics; seebs; seebsnews; skullandbones; smearcampaign; spike; tinfoil; tvland; vh1; viacom; viacommie; yale
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The dems must be running out of 2004 election strategy if this is all they can come up with.
1 posted on 10/08/2003 9:39:36 PM PDT by EsclavoDeCristo
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To: All
Aww man! Enough of the fundraiser posts!!!
Only YOU can make fundraiser posts go away. Please contribute!

3 posted on 10/08/2003 9:40:48 PM PDT by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
They are definately grabbing straws! Pretty transparent of them. I say..keep doing that and the whole country will be on to them..well maybe not ALL of the country..(some are still struggling with removing those rose colored sunglasses) This strategy will backfire..I love it! heheh
4 posted on 10/08/2003 9:43:56 PM PDT by teeples (A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
Oh for Pete's sake!
5 posted on 10/08/2003 9:47:48 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (Have YOU had your Logan Fix today? Hehe)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
The LA Times is reporting that the Skull and Bones society uses the blood of liberal's children to make their holiday pastry.

Nothing like like right-wing conspiracies and the left-wingers that believe them.
6 posted on 10/08/2003 9:48:32 PM PDT by LA Conservative (evil triumphs when good men do nothing)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
Stonecutters' Song

Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do! We do!

Who leaves Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the martians under wraps? We do! We do!

Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star? We do! We do!

Who robs the cave fish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscars night? We do! We do!

7 posted on 10/08/2003 9:49:26 PM PDT by martin_fierro (The trivmphant retvrn of A v v n c v l v s M a x i m v s)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
About 800 are living at any one time. This person talked to 100. That is over 12% - I find that hard to believe.
8 posted on 10/08/2003 9:51:48 PM PDT by mathluv
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To: EsclavoDeCristo

9 posted on 10/08/2003 9:52:21 PM PDT by My2Cents (Well...there you go again.)
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To: My2Cents
My cousin Ellis was invited, but he thought they were all too poofy.
10 posted on 10/08/2003 10:00:17 PM PDT by donmeaker (Bigamy is one wife too many. So is monogamy.)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
The French looking Mr. Kerry was recently asked on a Sunday morning show, by Tim Russert if I recall correctly, "What can you tell us about Skull and Bones?" The answer: "Nothing. It's secret."
11 posted on 10/08/2003 10:03:19 PM PDT by ntnychik
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
Despite a lifetime of attempts to get inside, the best Rosenbaum could do was hide out on the ledge of a nearby building a few years ago to videotape a nocturnal initiation ceremony in the Tomb's courtyard.

So he's a peeping tom???

12 posted on 10/08/2003 10:03:47 PM PDT by Mo1 (http://www.favewavs.com/wavs/cartoons/spdemocrats.wav)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
I knew that John Kerry was a social-climbing snob seeking to associate with his "betters" the day he first walked into a meeting of the Yale Political Union, seeking to make his mark. He was a patrician-speaking Freshman; I was Junior and an officer of the Union.

He was a horse's patoot then. He's the same thing now, except he has a few more wrinkles now and pays a lot more for his haircuts.

Congressman Billybob

Latest column, "Slime and Bigotry on the Campaign Trail," discussion thread on FR. IF YOU WANT A FREEPER IN CONGRESS, CLICK HERE.

13 posted on 10/08/2003 10:03:55 PM PDT by Congressman Billybob (www.ArmorforCongress.com Visit. Join. Help. Please.)
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To: JoeSixPack1
You look like a Whiffenpoof.

<|:P~
14 posted on 10/08/2003 10:09:19 PM PDT by martin_fierro (The trivmphant retvrn of A v v n c v l v s M a x i m v s)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
Oh brother .. don't they have anything more recent than this ..?? Good grief .. this is so old it's got whiskers.
15 posted on 10/08/2003 10:12:26 PM PDT by CyberAnt
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
Someone needs to send this to Rush, too.
16 posted on 10/08/2003 10:14:47 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (Have YOU had your Logan Fix today? Hehe)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
Pfft, all they do is play Dungeons and Dragons all day
17 posted on 10/08/2003 10:15:05 PM PDT by Fledermaus (I DONATED! HAVE YOU? DONATE NOW OR I'LL HAVE YOU TAKEN OFF THE DO NOT CALL LIST)
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To: William Creel; EsclavoDeCristo; JohnHuang2; MeeknMing; shaggy eel; Byron_the_Aussie
<< President Bushes and a Secret Society >>

In just the headline whichever of the lunatic left-wing fringers' most moronic members wrote this crap demonstrated all I will ever need to know about him.

"President Bushes" for Presidents Bush, in two words demonstrates both his intellectual bankruptcy and his illiteracy.

"Secret Society" for "Skull and Bones oath of silence" confirms the envy that motivates all of his ilk, his consequential hatred and rage-engined bloody ignorance, his mindless stupidity and his obsessive need to destroy all that he cannot understand and/or that quite reasonably discriminates against such vulgar ignorance as is manifest in him and his kind and every bit as reasonably shuts him out!

For, as a very wise man, a certain Doctor Oliver, once observed: "Be very cautious whom you recommend as a candidate for membership; one false step on this point may be fatal. If you introduce a disputatious person, confusion will be produced which may end in dissolution of the Lodge. If you have a good Lodge, keep it select. Great numbers are not always beneficial."

And Skull and Bones which goes to great lengths to protect itself from evil and from dissent withing -- and does great anonymous Good and great anonymous Charity -- and does Absolutely no harm to any man -- most certainly knows this passage well.

Bump/Ping
18 posted on 10/08/2003 10:15:26 PM PDT by Brian Allen ( Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
Besides, I thought it was the Masons that ruled the world.
19 posted on 10/08/2003 10:15:56 PM PDT by Fledermaus (I DONATED! HAVE YOU? DONATE NOW OR I'LL HAVE YOU TAKEN OFF THE DO NOT CALL LIST)
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To: My2Cents
If that guy wants to make some points at Field Day.... He needs to lose that thing with the button on it... I know what they are... I can't remember... A microphone? And get a keyer or bug. CW contacts count more, and are much faster.

I suppose I should get a life. 73's

/john

20 posted on 10/08/2003 10:16:47 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (I'm just a cook.)
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To: Mo1
Rosenbaum is nursing a grudge from when he was a teenybopper? I imagine the Skull and Bones is little different from a frat with a coat-and-tie dress code and kegs of Heineken instead of Coors lite. The number of people who've gone on from the secret society at Harvard (also housed in a super secret private candlelit castle with secret initiation rites) to positions of influence is also amazing -- William Randolf Hearst 1886, former US Attorney General and Secretary of Defense Eliot Richardson '41, actor Fred Gwynn '51 (Herman Munster), authors Owen Wister 1881, George Santayana 1886, William Gaddis '45, George Plimpton '48 and John Updike '54. The name of this nefarious secret society? The Harvard Lampoon.
21 posted on 10/08/2003 10:17:02 PM PDT by caspera
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
This Skull and Bones story is 10 years old already for heavens sake.
22 posted on 10/08/2003 10:17:44 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
Happy Halloween Liberals!

The witches and warlocks of journalism are heating up those cauldrons!
23 posted on 10/08/2003 10:20:10 PM PDT by ladyinred (Talk about a revolution, look at California!!! We dumped Davis!!!)
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To: Brian Allen
So let's see. If the cop, the prosecutor, my lawyer, the judge, and the jailer all belong to the same anonymous and private social club that I don't belong to and I have a beef with any one of them, I can expect impartial treatment from the rest of them?

Please spare me the crap about good works. It doesn't belong in government.
24 posted on 10/08/2003 10:21:50 PM PDT by agitator (Ok, mic check...line one...)
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To: Fledermaus
Pfft, all they do is play Dungeons and Dragons all day

Maybe, but remember, this is college. I think it's more like this


25 posted on 10/08/2003 10:25:31 PM PDT by GATOR NAVY
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
Boo!


26 posted on 10/08/2003 10:26:01 PM PDT by Davea
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To: GATOR NAVY
Hey...where did you get that picture of me?
27 posted on 10/08/2003 10:26:25 PM PDT by Fledermaus (I DONATED! HAVE YOU? DONATE NOW OR I'LL HAVE YOU TAKEN OFF THE DO NOT CALL LIST)
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To: Poohbah; stands2reason; Chancellor Palpatine
Ping

Here is another group controlling the universe.
28 posted on 10/08/2003 10:31:37 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (HEY! LA Times! - Arnold won - 63% voted (R) - roll that in your paper and smoke it!)
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To: Brian Allen
.... and from dissent within .....
29 posted on 10/08/2003 10:31:47 PM PDT by Brian Allen ( Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Fledermaus
Ha! Was that as painful as it looks?
30 posted on 10/08/2003 10:32:25 PM PDT by GATOR NAVY
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
There is more than just Skull and Bones. Harvard has the Scroll and Key for instance. Then there are the common lodge Freemasons and the more secretive Freemasons. The Hermetic Orders. The recent Knights of Templar. Orders in the Catholic Church. Etc etc etc. Then all the splinter groups. Societies are a way for people in higher positions to come together and bond and although they can create powerful connections they are not as strong and all knowing as people who like conspiracies think.

Or at least not usually.
31 posted on 10/08/2003 10:33:05 PM PDT by DeuceTraveler
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To: agitator

32 posted on 10/08/2003 10:33:06 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: agitator
Freedom of Association?
33 posted on 10/08/2003 10:34:45 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (HEY! LA Times! - Arnold won - 63% voted (R) - roll that in your paper and smoke it!)
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To: agitator
OH!

And you'll need these too!


34 posted on 10/08/2003 10:35:56 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ("As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: Fledermaus
Besides, I thought it was the Masons that ruled the world.

Al Jazeera says it's Da Jooz.

35 posted on 10/08/2003 10:36:26 PM PDT by weegee
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To: weegee; Fledermaus
no no no

Didn't you hear - it is Chalcedon - at least in California.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/997715/posts
36 posted on 10/08/2003 10:41:06 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (HEY! LA Times! - Arnold won - 63% voted (R) - roll that in your paper and smoke it!)
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To: agitator; William Creel; EsclavoDeCristo; JohnHuang2; MeeknMing; shaggy eel; Byron_the_Aussie
<< If the cop, the prosecutor, my lawyer, the judge, and the jailer all belong to the same anonymous and private social club that I don't belong to and I have a beef with any one of them, I can expect impartial treatment from the rest of them >>

Yep. Thats what I mean.

And that is what I know.

Unless, of course, their club is the one of the scores of fascistic and terroristic manifestations of absolute evil that but uses the language of Altrusim, Charity, Christianity, Goodness, Judaism, and Mercy to cover its insidiously secret and truly evil intent and purpose.

And that calls itself the ACLU, the NEA, the AARP, the ABA and/or the "DemocRATic" potty et al.

For when those truly secret and truly evil of intent and of purpose insidiously secret societies are done destroying the Good ones, you and all of yours -- and Our Beloved FRaternal Republic -- and Judeo-Christian/Western [IE: "Human" -- coz we're IT!] Civilization are gunna be History!

[Why else do you reckon the insidious psychosis it and we we call "liberalism" is so obsessively Hell-bent on destroying every well-intentioned and Good Symbol, Foundation, Tenet, Law, Pillar and/or Monument of and to Our Nation's Greatness? Coz they've time to spare, maybe?]

Cordially -- Brian

37 posted on 10/08/2003 10:48:08 PM PDT by Brian Allen ( Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
This is good news. At least we know someone educated is running things and is concerned about being in the limelight. Look at the current President Bush and then note that he does not say much, letting his staff make announcements - staying out of the limelight. Secret societies only flurish for the greater good of the groups and oftentimes to the betterment of society (one could conversely argue that in the case of the SS things get out of hand). I like the idea that rich people would come together and strengthen their bonds - after all, political parties do the same for much the same reason. Very reasonable, very practical....
38 posted on 10/08/2003 10:51:05 PM PDT by Jumper ("Its economic warfare, stupid")
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To: agitator
Prol envy ? Get over it.
39 posted on 10/08/2003 10:53:02 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Mo1
He should have sent Novak.
40 posted on 10/08/2003 10:55:28 PM PDT by DLfromthedesert
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
His investigation is a 30-year obsession dating back to his days as a Yale classmate of George W. Bush. Rosenbaum, a self-described undergraduate nerd, was certainly not a contender for Bones. But he was fascinated by its weirdness.

So even after 30 years, this guy is STILL torqued over not being part of the IN group? He needs to get a REAL life!!

41 posted on 10/08/2003 11:05:41 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Brian Allen
"does great anonymous Good and great anonymous Charity"...
if its anonymous, how do we or anyone know its being done, and by them?
42 posted on 10/08/2003 11:06:49 PM PDT by isom35
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To: CyberCowboy777
Don't be a f___ head. And don't ping me.
43 posted on 10/08/2003 11:14:35 PM PDT by stands2reason
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To: CyberCowboy777
Haliburton?
44 posted on 10/08/2003 11:16:25 PM PDT by weegee
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To: Brian Allen
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize America's mode of government was was "Battle of The Secret Societies." This is Abuse. Arguments is down the hall.
45 posted on 10/08/2003 11:18:12 PM PDT by agitator (Ok, mic check...line one...)
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To: stands2reason
grow up
46 posted on 10/08/2003 11:32:08 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (HEY! LA Times! - Arnold won - 63% voted (Republican) - roll that in your paper and smoke it!)
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To: weegee
Not big on fish myself.
47 posted on 10/08/2003 11:33:03 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (HEY! LA Times! - Arnold won - 63% voted (Republican) - roll that in your paper and smoke it!)
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To: Fledermaus
Besides, I thought it was the Masons that ruled the world.

No, no, no! That's what they want you to believe. Don't you know it's actually the Trilateral Commission? ;o)

48 posted on 10/08/2003 11:44:25 PM PDT by lorrainer (I talk too much... I go to On-and-On-and-On-Anon meetings....)
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To: EsclavoDeCristo
This Skull and Bones story is so old. The Dems brought it up during the last election. Same ole, same ole with the Dems. No ideas, no plans, just trash. Desperation is showing more every day. If they don't win something soon, we might have to put them in the straight jackets or looney bins for sure.
49 posted on 10/09/2003 12:11:48 AM PDT by GOP-Pat
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To: nopardons

50 posted on 10/09/2003 12:12:01 AM PDT by agitator (Ok, mic check...line one...)
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