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New push to deregulate energy: Schwarzenegger electricity plan fuels fears of another debacle
San Francisco Chronicle ^ | 10/11/03 | Zachary Coile

Posted on 10/11/2003 8:32:00 AM PDT by Pokey78

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:44:20 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Gov.-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger is preparing a push to deregulate the state's electricity markets -- a move embraced by business leaders and some energy analysts but criticized by many Democrats and consumer advocates as a return to the failed policies that sparked California's energy crisis.


(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: brulte; calpowercrisis; deregulation; energy; government; grayout; grayoutarnold; jimbrulte; peace; petewilson; power; schwarzenegger; stevepeace; wilson
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To: Dog Gone
Replaced. Pull out the core, put it on a truck, and take it back to the factory. Drop in another one.

It's pretty cool.
101 posted on 11/04/2003 9:01:00 AM PST by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to manage by politics.)
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To: snopercod
I believe the French are big on helium cooled reactors.
102 posted on 11/04/2003 9:02:06 AM PST by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to manage by politics.)
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To: general_re; Carry_Okie; snopercod; Dog Gone; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Robert357; dalereed; ...
"The basic problems are obvious enough that even the slowest and stupidest Democrat should be able to figure it out by now - or maybe I'm too generous ;)"

Yes... I'm afraid you are, cause here comes one of the stupidest... Mr. CA Bondage, himself, Phil Angelides!!! See him breaking the "breaking news" with a plot to make a "Preserve" out of "The Grid" for his EnvironMentalista buddies!!!

103 posted on 11/04/2003 3:53:38 PM PST by SierraWasp (Multi-Level Government is more ABSURD than Multi-Level Marketing! The pyramid's upside down!!!)
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To: Carry_Okie
"such as Needles, Barstow, and Twentynine Palms."

Hey, i've got a place in 29 Palms, don't send your whackos there!

How about sending them all to Antartica with a years suply of bikinis?

104 posted on 11/04/2003 4:12:15 PM PST by dalereed (,)
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To: dalereed
China lake instead?
105 posted on 11/04/2003 4:40:55 PM PST by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly stupid.)
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To: Carry_Okie
"China lake instead?"

That sounds good, let them fight with the Navy!
106 posted on 11/04/2003 5:20:10 PM PST by dalereed (,)
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To: dalereed
You may want to check out Posts 67 and 69.
107 posted on 11/04/2003 9:06:45 PM PST by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly stupid.)
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To: SierraWasp
And this is your state treasurer, is it?

Man, I hope Arnold's got his s*** together, or you guys are in trouble. Again ;)

108 posted on 11/04/2003 9:07:32 PM PST by general_re ("I am Torgo. I take care of the place while the Master is away.")
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To: Carry_Okie
"of course, lewislynn deserves strangling on his own merits"

That's for sure, i've had my go arounds with him myself. I'm almost convinced he's a troll from DU!

You've put together a great composition that ties it all together, well done!
109 posted on 11/04/2003 10:15:48 PM PST by dalereed (,)
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To: biblewonk
"All they need is more windmills"

Stick your windmills where the sun doesn't shine!

That goes for the rest of your enviro whacky electrical production also!
110 posted on 11/04/2003 10:22:46 PM PST by dalereed (,)
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To: dalereed; newgeezer
Stick your windmills where the sun doesn't shine!

That goes for the rest of your enviro whacky electrical production also!

Typical ignorance. Wind is the fastest growing source of electricity.

111 posted on 11/05/2003 6:01:54 AM PST by biblewonk (I must answer all bible questions.)
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To: biblewonk
Eliminate their subsidies and your windmills will disapear, they aren't cost effective.

Environmentalism should be a capitol crime!
112 posted on 11/05/2003 6:11:11 AM PST by dalereed (,)
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To: dalereed
Eliminate their subsidies and your windmills will disapear, they aren't cost effective.

Environmentalism should be a capitol crime!

So is coal and nukes. Eliminate their subsidies. 35 billion dollars just for black lung.

113 posted on 11/05/2003 7:02:11 AM PST by biblewonk (I must answer all bible questions.)
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To: Carry_Okie
Great information Carry, interesting reading...as always.
114 posted on 11/24/2003 2:17:07 PM PST by Cuttnhorse
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To: Carry_Okie; snopercod
I believe the French are big on helium cooled reactors.

The Fort Saint Vrain reactor was helium cooled. Unfortunately it was shut down due to the enviro whacks never letting it make any money.

115 posted on 12/19/2003 11:31:56 PM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: Eric in the Ozarks
That about says it all. How many new power generating plants have actually been built in California in the last three years?
116 posted on 12/19/2003 11:47:20 PM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: Carry_Okie
They should call these things "Shipstones" from the science fiction books (Asimov?).

Keep in mind that regardless of how simple these things are, a crew of fifty or a hundred people will be required to monitor, protect, and maintain them.

Turbines require ultra-clean water of the proper chemistry (no dissolved oxygen, neutral pH, etc.). The chemicals (like Hydrazine) and equipment (like resin beds) used to treat the water will reqire constant monitoring and maintenance.

Turbine lube oil requires constant monitoring, as does the electrical switchgear.

They will require a large security force to keep "terrorists" away.

These things sound like a step in the right direction, but let's be realistic. The power they might produce will not be "too cheap to meter".

117 posted on 12/20/2003 4:48:36 AM PST by snopercod (Stranded all alone in the gas station of love, and having to use the self-service pumps.)
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To: snopercod
As you know, I don't doubt your expertise or integrity, but I don't underestimate the Japanese either. Allow me a few devil's advocate questions:

Turbines require ultra-clean water of the proper chemistry (no dissolved oxygen, neutral pH, etc.). The chemicals (like Hydrazine) and equipment (like resin beds) used to treat the water will reqire constant monitoring and maintenance.

It's just a control and material processing problem. Given that the Japanese made photo processing machinery so reliable that they could hire American kids to run them in drugstores, do you really think that it is beyond them to reduce this to automated dispensers and fuzzy logic?

Turbine lube oil requires constant monitoring, as does the electrical switchgear.

Even on the scale of this smaller unit? Perhaps somebody has run a labor v. scale optimization (a Simplex problem if there ever was one)? Given that it's small, do you think they might have the switchgear down to solid state?

They will require a large security force to keep "terrorists" away.

This I doubt. Containment vessels take a bit of talent to breach.

118 posted on 12/20/2003 7:36:32 AM PST by Carry_Okie (California: Where government is pornography every day!)
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To: Carry_Okie
Sure, improvments in auxiliary systems have no doubt been made since the last time I saw a power plant from the inside. What you say is possible, but what happens when the automatic equipment breaks down?

As for the security issue, you are dreaming if you think the NRC will allow any kind of nuclear plant to run without guards, razor wire fences, dogs, microwave intrusion alarms, CCTV cameras, etc.

And the NRC itself will demand an onsite staff.

And let's not forget that the town in Alaska will still need 100% backup power in case the Shipstone fails.

119 posted on 12/20/2003 7:49:56 AM PST by snopercod (Stranded all alone in the gas station of love, and having to use the self-service pumps.)
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To: snopercod
What you say is possible, but what happens when the automatic equipment breaks down?

MTBF analysis has yielded to prospective validation, which has become so good in some industries as to virtually preclude such events. Think "zero defects" programs such as at Toyota.

As for the security issue, you are dreaming if you think the NRC will allow any kind of nuclear plant to run without guards, razor wire fences, dogs, microwave intrusion alarms, CCTV cameras, etc.

Razor wire: sure.
Fences: absolutely.
Dogs: maybe, daily visit.
Microwave intrusion alarms: of course.
CCTV cameras, obviously.
Guards: on call.
How about a robotic defense capability?

It's all doable for less than the price of the staff.

I really don't think it impossible. Remember: it's small; it's encased in steel and concrete; there is no fuel or waste storage; there is nothing to be sabotaged without first breaching containment. As for the NRC, well, who the hell knows?

120 posted on 12/20/2003 8:56:09 AM PST by Carry_Okie (California: Where government is pornography every day!)
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To: Carry_Okie; snopercod
Just as an FYI, RTGs used to be place at remote locations (such as an unmanned weather station) for clean long term power.

In this day and age we all know that would incite crowd to protest. I even remember a design for a nuclear watch battery clear back from the 60s.

Now if it even has the word "nuclear" in it, people seem to panic. For example, NMRs were renamed MRIs to alleviate patient fear of the word "nuclear".

121 posted on 12/20/2003 9:38:27 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: RadioAstronomer; snopercod
Now if it even has the word "nuclear" in it, people seem to panic. For example, NMRs were renamed MRIs to alleviate patient fear of the word "nuclear".

The cure is champagne! After half a magnum they don't seem to mind drinks that are fission.

122 posted on 12/20/2003 9:46:39 AM PST by Carry_Okie (California: Where government is pornography every day!)
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To: snopercod; Carry_Okie
I'm awestruck with that post.

Me too. Very informative and plausible, especially regarding the "constitutional loophole." More evidence that Milton Friedman was right when he said that regulatory boards are usually overtaken by the corporations that they are purported to regulate, usually with an eye to keeping out competition.

123 posted on 01/05/2004 10:40:17 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Carry_Okie
Because of its design and small size, the Toshiba reactor can't overheat or melt down

Thanks for that info too.

124 posted on 01/05/2004 10:52:12 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: djreece
marking #67
125 posted on 02/16/2004 3:58:29 PM PST by djreece
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To: snopercod

"Runs with Chainsaw"
You won't believe how long it took me to type that out, first thing that came to mind (after inhale) was this one is a Nanny Cops Worst Nightmare. Sorry that is just flat too funny.


126 posted on 06/17/2004 6:50:02 PM PDT by TexasTransplant ("You know, I think the best possible social program is a job" Ronald W. Reagan)
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To: Barlowmaker


127 posted on 09/27/2004 10:25:22 PM PDT by farmfriend ( In Essentials, Unity...In Non-Essentials, Liberty...In All Things, Charity.)
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To: do the dhue

bookmark


128 posted on 06/25/2006 12:39:38 PM PDT by do the dhue (I hope y'all will help bail me out of jail after I dot Hack Murtha's eyes.)
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To: Carry_Okie

My husband worked for ARCO for 25 years, and I have to tell you that the employees hated MTBE. They knew the dangers, but were told that it was government mandated.


129 posted on 02/05/2008 6:39:38 AM PST by Eva (Benedict Arnold was a war hero, too.)
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To: Eva
They knew the dangers, but were told that it was government mandated.

I don't doubt it. I also don't doubt that most of the middle level managers didn't know the truth about it either. I worked as a project engineer in a chemical plant and remember well the lengths to which we would go to protect customer safety. As I noted in the piece, it isn't the companies that are the problem as much as it is the owners.

130 posted on 02/05/2008 7:11:42 AM PST by Carry_Okie (We have people in power who love evil.)
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To: Carry_Okie

As I recall (and my recollection might be faulty), MTBE was developed by ARCO to avoid having to buy ethanol from ADM because of the government mandate. ARCO thought that their profit margins were too low at the time and that the ethanol mandate was going to kill them. That was at the same time that Lod Cook was increasing the ARCO debt to fend off the takeover of the company.

I have always felt that the takeover that did finally happen, was somehow illegal. The fact that all the members of the board were paid millions of dollars. to approve the take over, just didn’t seem right. Then there was that crazy deal that based the price for ARCO on BP stock price and the illegal Chinese IPO that BP supported, about two weeks before the take over, that caused BP stock to drop like a rock.


131 posted on 02/05/2008 7:31:42 AM PST by Eva (Benedict Arnold was a war hero, too.)
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To: Eva
Remember also that BP spun off ARCO Chemical MTBE production to Lyondell, in Canada and then had the absolute balls to sue the USA to make us take the product. I have little doubt that they moved a bunch of the liability for foisting MTBE with it.

Protection from American lawyers?

I really feel for the chemical engineers who knew MTBE was a problem and tried to stop it. I've been in a similar career-limiting position.

132 posted on 02/05/2008 7:58:56 AM PST by Carry_Okie (We have people in power who love evil.)
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To: Carry_Okie

My husband was the environmental adviser for ARCO marine in the mid eighties. He spent the year before the Valdez spill trying to convince BP and EXXON execs that the odds indicated that they were over due for a major spill and that they were totally unprepared to deal with it. He even ran a spill drill with almost the exact scenario that actually occurred six months later.

BP lawyers threatened to destroy him in court if he dared to testify against them.


133 posted on 02/05/2008 8:17:48 AM PST by Eva (Benedict Arnold was a war hero, too.)
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To: Eva
I was developing a new product that required an air quality permit in a plant that had had 43 successive notices of violation from the San Francisco Bay Area Air Quality Management District.

I was able to force a division VP to let me fix the relationship with BAAQMD because the chief environmental regulatory officer backed me up. Else I would probably have been fired and would have had to go find a lawyer.

It all worked out. They got the product in ten months from concept to production, legally, and made a lot of money. Implementing the project required a tricky process with an almost impossible construction job. I didn't get a dime for it, because I'd been "difficult."

I know how he feels.

134 posted on 02/05/2008 9:13:18 AM PST by Carry_Okie (We have people in power who love evil.)
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To: Eva
If you would, have your husband read that post 67. I'd like to know his reaction.
135 posted on 02/05/2008 10:58:21 AM PST by Carry_Okie (We have people in power who love evil.)
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To: Carry_Okie

Interesting.


136 posted on 08/09/2008 1:19:32 PM PDT by sionnsar (Impeach Obama |Iran Azadi| 5yst3m 0wn3d - it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY) | UN: Useless Nations)
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