The Communion of All Saints

Catholic Legate ^ | November 1, 2003 | John Pacheco

[NYer]

A long but worthy read! John Pacheco is Director, Apologist for Catholic Legate.

[pegleg]

bookmarked for later reading

[RichardMoore]

Thanks for the post. I'll be back later.

[Salvation]

Questions and Answers

Calendar of the Saints
Question from Rob Sheahan on 11-27-2002:

Is there a document which explains the reasons why most of the Feast days of Saints were moved to other days on the liturgical calendar? I believe this happened in the late 1960's. I would like to know what the reasons were in the particular instances, for instance, why St. Dominic was moved to just a couple of days away.

Thank you.

Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 12-04-2002:

There is no such document. The Church's practice is to put saints on the month and day of their death. If that is not possible, either because it is a greater feast or another saint occupies it already, then it is usually put as close as possible to that date. Sometimes another date is chosen, such as the date the relics were moved to a place of honor (called translation).

By 1962 the calendar was very crowded, and many deviations from the date of death practice had entered in. Also, few places were available for notable saints of our times. The UNIVERSAL calendar was re-organized to correct the accidents of history and to winnow the field of saints no longer universally venerated. As the new Roman Martyrology shows, with its thousands of saints, each saint still has a feast day, but only a couple hundred are on the universal calendar of the Latin Rite. Many of the others still occupy days on the particular calendars of dioceses and religious comunities. There are also many saints little known to Latin Catholics on the calendars of the Eastern Churches, as well as other saints, such as the Patriarchs and Prophets, whom it has not been the Roman custom to place on the calendar, but who are nonetheless legitimately venerated as saints by Catholics, East and West. One of my favorites is Elijah the Tishbite (July 20th), the prophet of the Old Covenant.

As for St. Dominic, he used to be celebrated on August 4th, and today is on August 8th. Since he died on August 6th, the Transfiguration, he clearly needed another day. I don't know why he was originally placed 2 days before, and moved to 2 days after. I'm sure he was not moved without consulting the Dominicans, however. Perhaps there is some significance to the 8th in the life of St. Dominic or of the Order, or it simply seemed better to celebrate after the date of death than before.

[aimhigh]

No where in the bible does it say that once someone dies, we are to stop honouring them.

Why do Catholics spend more time honoring people than Jesus?

There is a difference between honoring someone and praying to them. Prayer is a form of worship. The scriptures tell us that, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim 2:5. If there is only ONE, then why pray to anyone else.

[PoisedWoman]

The topic of saints is a sticky wicket for Protestants. Good to have all this information on hand for discussions with them. thanks.

[Salvation]

Glad to see you, Poised Woman. I pray that all is going well with you.

[Salvation]

We honor Jesus, and pray through Him for the faithful departed.

[Salvation]

One Bread, One Body

One Bread, One Body

<< Sunday, November 2, 2003 >>

All Souls

2 Maccabees 12:43-46
Revelation 14:13

Psalm 23
John 6:37-40

View Readings

12 REASONS TO PRAY FOR THE DEAD

“It is the will of Him Who sent Me that I should lose nothing of what He has given Me; rather, that I should raise it up on the last day.” —John 6:39

When we pray for the dead, we:

• obey the Lord and His Church,
• love our neighbor,
• express our unity with the other members of God’s family,
• help purify people in purgatory,
• help those in purgatory to go to heaven,
• face death and thereby become more aware of reality,
• express and strengthen our faith in the power of prayer,
• receive the benefit of the prayers of those in purgatory (Catechism, 958),
• rejoice, for all those in purgatory have given their lives to Jesus and will go to heaven,
• purify ourselves so that we will go directly to heaven and skip purgatory, or lessen our time in purgatory,
• share in the pouring out of God’s mercy, and
• enter more deeply into the mystery of God’s love and His plan of salvation.

There are other reasons to pray for the dead, but these twelve reasons show that, in praying for the dead, we act “in a very excellent and noble way” (2 Mc 12:43), for it is “a holy and pious thought” to pray for the dead (2 Mc 12:45).

Prayer: Father, free me from all attachment to sin so that I will go to heaven without going to purgatory (see Catechism, 1472).

Promise: “I heard a voice from heaven say to me: ‘Write this down: Happy now are the dead who die in the Lord!’ The Spirit added, ‘Yes, they shall find rest from their labors, for their good works accompany them.’ ” —Rv 14:13

Praise: Praise the risen Jesus, Who lived, died, and rose in the perfect will of the Father.

[aimhigh]

Your quotes are from men, not God. Your use of Apocrypha included.

[NYer]

Why do Catholics spend more time honoring people than Jesus?

???? Catholics pray to Jesus. They will sometimes ask a saint to intercede on their behalf or that of someone else. Think of it this way ... you've got an ally right there in heaven who is with Christ , right now! These individuals have merited a place in heaven by living the gospel that Christ brought to mankind.

The Council of Trent, in its 25th Session, declared the following to be the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church:

"...the saints, who reign together with Christ, offer up their own prayers for men . . . it is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid and help for obtaining benefits from God through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, Who is alone our Redeemer and Saviour."

The scriptures tell us that, - "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...

For a Catholic, this passage poses no difficulty because St. Paul is speaking about the ultimate and final mediation in Christ Jesus. It does not represent an attack on Catholic teaching because all Christians are to be mediators with Christ. All Christians are in a profound and deep sense mediators with Christ. When we witness to someone, we are fulfilling our duty as an ambassador of Christ, and the job of an ambassador is to mediate:

"We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God." (2 Cor. 5:20)

Two things to reflect carefully on:

1) St. Paul attributes Christ? mediation THROUGH the body;

2) St. Paul? appeal is ON BEHALF of Christ. This makes St. Paul a type of mediator between the world and Christ.

The mediation of the members of the body is predicated and draws its power and authority from the supreme mediation of Christ who is the true and only mediator between God and men. To say that Jesus is the only mediator does not preclude his body from participating in that mediation. How could it? There is, after all, only ONE BODY OF CHRIST (Cf. Romans 7:4, Romans 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:16-17, 1 Cor. 12:12-27, Eph. 3:6, Eph. 4:4,12,16,25, Eph. 5:23, Col 1:18, Col 3:15)! What it does exclude, however, is another way to the Father through, for instance, another prophet or religion. In existing as the body of Christ, individual members of this body are not set against Christ in His mediation, but act as a sort of conduit through which He works in this world (Cf. Rom. 15:18). Hence, our mediation is a logical corollary to this great truth since the body cannot be separated from the Head (Cf. 1 Cor. 11:3). Or, as St. Paul asks the contentious Corinthians: Is Christ now divided? (Cf. 1 Cor. 1:13) Since Christ lives through his mystical body in this world, so too therefore does His mediation.

[NYer]

it is “a holy and pious thought” to pray for the dead (2 Mc 12:45).

as opposed to "pray to the dead" (another misconception often associated with catholics).

Thanks for the great posts to this thread!! I always wondered why the calendar of feast days was rearranged and now I know. :-)

[aimhigh]

Since Christ lives through his mystical body in this world, so too therefore does His mediation.

ThThis type of logic could justify worshiping people within the church. Where would it end? Your conclusions are not scriptural.

[RobbyS]

"Scriptural" seems to mean what is contrary to your own beliefs. Catholic doctine about the dead is an inference from the notion of the Communion of saints. which is simply another way of the Kingdom of Heaven. You seem to have glided over that part in which he points out that much doctrine accepted by Christians or all sorts is based on what is implied in Scripture rather than what is stated explicitly.

[aimhigh]

"..implied in Scripture"

The Gay Episcopalion Bishop loves implied doctrine.

[Salvation]

Your own personal interpretation of Scripture.

YOPIOS!

And it seems that you cannot accept the fact that the Catholic Church was in existence long before any Protestant Churches -- 1500 years, in the least.

And now you must try to discredit the Scriptures as well as the Holy Tradition that was passed down through the Apostles -- Acts tells the story. But then, perhaps your personal interpretation of acts is different than mine -- that Peter, Philip, Paul and others followed the instructions given them by JESUS!

And your church????

[aimhigh]

Peter, Philip, Paul and others followed the instructions given them by JESUS!

Show me where Jesus instructed them to pray to, or for the dead. It ain't there.

[Salvation]

FEAST OF THE DAY

Today is the feast of All Souls, this is the day set aside out of the
year for us to pray for the souls of all who have died, especially the
souls in purgatory waiting for the joys of heaven. This feast has
biblical origins, for example, in the Second Book of Maccabees,
"Judas made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered
from their sin, and it has historical origins because from the
beginning of the Church, the Faithful were encouraged to pray for all
who had died.

A day set aside for prayer for all who had died began to be observed
in the Middle ages. In the eleventh century, St. Odilo, Abbot of Cluny,
decreed that the monks should set aside November 2 as a special
day to pray for the dead in the Divine Office, and through special
prayers.

The theological ideas for this feast day are based on the fact that
very few of us achieve perfection in our lives on earth, so we must
remove the scars of our sinfulness and imperfection before we come
face-to-face with God. This day is set aside for the Church on earth
to pray for those who have died and are still preparing to meet God
face-to-face.

A more recent addition to this celebration happened in 1915 when
Pope Benedict XV stated in an apostolic constitution that priests
could celebrate three Masses on this day. The intention for the first
Mass is for a particular intention of the priest, the intention of the
second is for all the Faithful Departed, and the intention of the third is
for the intentions of the Pope.

[RobbyS]

You missed the point. If you stuck with explicit meanings you would not say that the words of the institution of the sacrament are "symbolic."