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RECONSTRUCTION THEOLOGY AND HOME EDUCATION [Rushdoony, HSLDA, Gary North]
Houston Unschooling Group ^ | 1999 | Mary McCarthy

Posted on 11/17/2003 8:24:55 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine

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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Here's an easy refutation. Tim LaHaye is emphatically not a "Reconstructionist".

If you don't know this, you don't know anything about what you are pretending to discuss.

You really need to sharpen your tools, mate, if you want to appear to have any credibility at all.

Don't waste our time with your sophomoric scholarship. You make me laugh!

51 posted on 11/17/2003 12:38:04 PM PST by Precisian
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To: ckca
Thus this article and the POS who posted it should be removed. But he's your old buddy, so you'll defend this anti-Christian screed instead of defending your fellow Christian.

If I didn't know either of you, I'd say, from the behavior on this thread, that he's the Christian, and you are not.

52 posted on 11/17/2003 12:39:24 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: ckca; Jim Robinson
You should get off this Forum and do it.

Once again--and read this slowly--you don't own this forum. Jim Robinson does. When you have your own forum, you can tell people to leave. You do not have that power on this forum. You do not have the power to have threads pulled, although you're trying very hard to do so.

Personal attacks on another freeper are forbidden on this forum. To wit: Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.

53 posted on 11/17/2003 12:41:03 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Your conscience wouldn't allow it - it is easy to tolerate political and legal persecution of non-adherents and heretics from the distance of centuries, but you couldn't do it or watch it done in practice.
54 posted on 11/17/2003 12:41:20 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Precisian
I believe all So9 means that this straw man "Christian Reconstructionist" is more dangerous than all the AQ sleepers and Democrat socialists plotting evil in America at this moment.
55 posted on 11/17/2003 12:48:46 PM PST by irgbar-man (Don't axe me, go axe a tree!)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
You miss the same point everybody misses with "Reconstructionism". Here is a thought-experiment to clear things up for you.

If a legal election is held under the terms of our Constitution, and the Federal Judiciary sustains the decision of the ballot by a vote of the majority of the Supreme Court....is this "imposing tyranny?"

Nowhere in any "Reconstructionist" literature does anyone advocate anything but complete legal, open-ballot, judicially sustained voting.

Are you saying you will not defend the tenets of the United States Constitution?

56 posted on 11/17/2003 12:51:48 PM PST by Precisian
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To: Precisian
Tim LaHaye is emphatically not a "Reconstructionist".

Then why did he sign the Manifesto that set up the COR? Other signatories include Rushdoony, Gary North, Donald Wildmon, etc.

57 posted on 11/17/2003 12:52:31 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Well, I think things are becoming clearer, mate. You flunked high school logic.

Your mind works this way: LaHaye signed the COR Manifesto. Gary North signed the COR Manifesto. North is a "Reconstructionist"; therefore, LaHaye is a "Reconstructionist." You make me laugh!

I am neither a "Reconstructionist", nor a "Theonomist". But I am a defender of the truth. And I don't like sloppy logicians like you.

58 posted on 11/17/2003 1:07:44 PM PST by Precisian
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To: Precisian
Nowhere in any "Reconstructionist" literature does anyone advocate anything but complete legal, open-ballot, judicially sustained voting.

Thats kind of a fave of mine.

59 posted on 11/17/2003 1:07:53 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Why not? I've been quite happy to watch the "persecution" of common criminals being caught and slapped about by the citizenry (myself included), or the police.

You are saying I'd have been "troubled" by watching people be exiled to Persia for heresy? Why? It was their choice. If they wanted, they could choose to make a profession of faith.

You should stick to speaking for yourself.
60 posted on 11/17/2003 1:19:22 PM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Again, you need to go back and take elementary logic.

Where in "Political Polytheism" does Gary North say that he opposes legal and sustained majoritarian balloting upheld by the federal judiciary?

You can post a billion things from a billion books and essays, but you will never post anything written by a "Reconstructionist" that goes against the fundamental principles of the United States Constitution. Never!

61 posted on 11/17/2003 1:19:26 PM PST by Precisian
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To: Precisian
I'm sorry, but that piece that I just put up states clearly that the franchise needs to be limited to Christians. That is abhorrent to me, and only those who inhabit a really slimy little theological niche would deem that to comport with the letter and spirit of the Constitution - plus, you'd be wrong.
62 posted on 11/17/2003 1:24:33 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
I've been quite happy to watch the "persecution" of common criminals being caught and slapped about by the citizenry (myself included), or the police.

Why am I not suprised that you've been 'quite happy' to see people slapped around by the police?

63 posted on 11/17/2003 1:30:14 PM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: Pahuanui
Because you realize that I am the type of person who believes muggers and theives and criminals deserve what they get.

Tell me, when the men in my neighborhood ran down a thief last year after he had stolen a bike from a local girl, were we wrong to be happy in the accomplishment, including the bruising tackle the thief suffered at the end of the chase when we dragged him down to the pavement at the curb in the middle of an intersection? Was it wrong for us to be gleeful in watching him rightly suffer at our hands for the wrongs he did our neighborhood?

Was I supposed to be tearful and sorrowful when a boy who mugged me at gunpoint was literally tossed 10 feet into the back of the paddywagon? Why? Did his "human dignity" demand kid glove treatment?
64 posted on 11/17/2003 1:35:41 PM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
You are saying I'd have been "troubled" by watching people be exiled to Persia for heresy?

Would you be troubled by that? Not an accusation. Just an honest question.

65 posted on 11/17/2003 1:36:22 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: Catspaw
Personal attacks on another freeper are forbidden on this forum

Open your eyes. This thread is a PERSONAL ATTACK on all Christian homeschoolers!

If it is tolerated then the consequences should be tolertated.

Get lost, and quit speaking for Jim Rob, unless "Catspaw" is his alternate screen name.

66 posted on 11/17/2003 1:37:38 PM PST by ckca
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To: Modernman
No.
67 posted on 11/17/2003 1:38:46 PM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Texas_Dawg; Lazamataz
Same goes for Lazamataz.

I realize he kicks your ass every time you argue with him, but please be man enough ping him if you talk about him.

68 posted on 11/17/2003 1:39:28 PM PST by jmc813 (Michael Schiavo is a bigger scumbag than Bill Clinton)
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To: ckca
Open your eyes. This thread is a PERSONAL ATTACK on all Christian homeschoolers!

That's how you may see it. This article seems to raise some interesting points. Nobody here has rebutted anything in the article nor its accusations against Christian Reconstructionism. I'd be curious to hear supporters of CR state what they believe the ideology stands for.

69 posted on 11/17/2003 1:41:10 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: ckca; Jim Robinson
Get lost, and quit speaking for Jim Rob, unless "Catspaw" is his alternate screen name.

I've pinged Mr. Robinson to this thread. But are you the new owner of the forum? When did you take over? Inquiring minds want to know.

BTW, until you prove ownership of this forum, you have as much right to tell me to "get lost" as Hillary Clinton does.

70 posted on 11/17/2003 1:41:22 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
No

Interesting. Keep in mind, though, you might find yourself on the other side of things. What if, a generation from now, this country is predominantly Hindu (stranger things have happened in human history) or majority atheist. Wouldn't you prefer to live in a society where the majority doesn't get to define what the "right" religion is?

71 posted on 11/17/2003 1:44:27 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: Modernman; Jim Robinson
Christian Reconstructionism is a marginal and irrelevant and passing trend.

This thread is not about Christian Reconstructionism.

Its simply trying to impugn Christian homeschoolers.

And I welcome Jim Rob's explanation of why CP's anti-Christian screeds are tolerated and I remind you that you still do not speak for him.

And my God is still the Holy Trinity, not any Forum moderator. The "last word" on Free Republic is not, in the end, the Last Word.

72 posted on 11/17/2003 1:48:35 PM PST by ckca
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To: Precisian
Nowhere in any "Reconstructionist" literature does anyone advocate anything but complete legal, open-ballot, judicially sustained voting.

They don't advocate violent overthrow of the government, certainly. They do, however, seem to intend to radically change the country if they take over. These changes seem to involve disenfranchising anyone they consider to be "non-believers." It's Wahhabi'ism with a Calvinist flavor.

73 posted on 11/17/2003 1:48:36 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Because you realize that I am the type of person who believes muggers and theives and criminals deserve what they get.

No, I understand that you sound like the type of person who prefers to dispense with our legal system, have no problems with police absuing their authority and actually enjoy extra-judicial acts of violence.

Tell me, when the men in my neighborhood ran down a thief last year after he had stolen a bike from a local girl, were we wrong to be happy in the accomplishment,

Of course not. What a silly question.

including the bruising tackle the thief suffered at the end of the chase when we dragged him down to the pavement at the curb in the middle of an intersection?

Taking a suspect into custody is an accomplishment. Taking pleasure in the degree of physicality in doing so is not. It's closer to a pathology.

Was it wrong for us to be gleeful in watching him rightly suffer at our hands for the wrongs he did our neighborhood?

Yep.

Was I supposed to be tearful and sorrowful when a boy who mugged me at gunpoint was literally tossed 10 feet into the back of the paddywagon?

No, of course not.

Why?

See above.

Did his "human dignity" demand kid glove treatment?

Certainly not. Ignorant of the circumstances surrounding your scenario, I have no idea how he should have been treated and why a 10ft. toss was 'necessary'. Once a perp is hooked, there is precious little reason for doing so.

74 posted on 11/17/2003 1:51:31 PM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: ckca
I remind you that you still do not speak for him

I've never claimed anything to that effect. You must have me confused with someone else.

All I've asked for is an explanation as to what CR is and how it relates to the religious homeschooling phenomenon. Is there a connection and, if so, should we be worried about the connection?

The discussion is certainly not out of bounds. Or am I missing something?

75 posted on 11/17/2003 1:51:45 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: Modernman
All I've asked for is an explanation as to what CR is and how it relates to the religious homeschooling phenomenon. Is there a connection and, if so, should we be worried about the connection?

Even if they are filling their kids head with this, I would still fight to the death for their right to do so. I don't see what people would want to do, take away their right to homeschool? What's the issue here?

76 posted on 11/17/2003 2:02:52 PM PST by jmc813 (Michael Schiavo is a bigger scumbag than Bill Clinton)
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To: Precisian; Chancellor Palpatine
"Here's an easy refutation. Tim LaHaye is emphatically not a "Reconstructionist"."

I picked up on this, too. I'm not really up on all the Protestant pre-mill, amill, post-mill stuff, but it seems to me LaHaye perforce cannot be a Reconstructionist given his "Left Behind" series. To wit, if one thinks the world is going to hell in a handbasket and one expects to be 'raptured out' at any moment; one naturally must preclude the possibility of building some Kingdom of Christ through a political system hear on earth. This kind of mistake leads me -a rather non-interested observer to this train-wreck of a thread- to the conclusion the author is either a) incompetent or b) malicious.(sp?) Either way, I'm not going to lay awake at night worrying about the Fundies under my bed. Heck, I'm Catholic, everybody hates us. -)

Certainly, though, if LaHaye is a Reconstructionist, he'd do well to keep it under his hat. Wouldn't do much for the book sales, what?

77 posted on 11/17/2003 2:06:05 PM PST by AlguyA
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To: jmc813
I don't see what people would want to do, take away their right to homeschool? What's the issue here?

I guess I'm bothered by the fact that posters on this thread who appear to be pro-CR refuse to give a straight answer as to the whole phenomenon. Instead, they've resorted to personal attacks and demanding that this thread be pulled. That's my issue.

78 posted on 11/17/2003 2:06:53 PM PST by Modernman (What Would Jimmy Buffet Do?)
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To: Boxsford; Chancellor Palpatine
I've had my say.

You didn't say anything. You just made wild unsubstantitiated claims. Chancellor Palpatine has backed up his claims with facts. Why can't you?

79 posted on 11/17/2003 2:07:28 PM PST by LPM1888 (What are the facts? Again and again and again -- what are the facts? - Lazarus Long)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Gary North is a religious kook.
80 posted on 11/17/2003 2:11:37 PM PST by Matchett-PI (Why do America's enemies desperately want DemocRATS back in power?)
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To: Modernman
I see your point. I just don't see why this is as big of a deal as some FReepers make it out to be. I mean, there are racist parents who fill their kids mind with all kinds of garbage. However, it is their right to do so, and I tend not to really give a $hit about them.
81 posted on 11/17/2003 2:12:25 PM PST by jmc813 (Michael Schiavo is a bigger scumbag than Bill Clinton)
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To: Texas_Dawg
Same goes for Lazamataz.

I'll bet ya you get banned long before I ever do.

Say, speak kindly of any torturing governments today?

82 posted on 11/17/2003 2:16:25 PM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING FELLOW FREEPERS SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: Modernman; Jim Robinson
how it relates to the religious homeschooling phenomenon.

There is no relationship whatsoever. This is a hit piece, pure and simple.

Is there a connection

NO!

and, if so, should we be worried about the connection?

No, we should be far more concerned about the agenda of the POS who wrote this and the connection to that liberal, anti-Christian agenda of the POS who posted this.

I'm a Christian homeschooler active at the local and state level. NONE of the crap in this POS article has ever been discussed or even mentioned.

Its no different than the CBS hit piece on homeschoolers.

In fact its worse, because at least FReepers all know the CBS drivel was drivel

The fact that this is posted as something even worthy of discussion, and not seen for the anti-Christian DU troll garbage that it is, should cause you the most concern.

83 posted on 11/17/2003 2:16:53 PM PST by ckca
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To: ckca; Catspaw
Would you guys please quit bothering Jim. I'm pretty confident that he has more important things to worry about.
84 posted on 11/17/2003 2:17:54 PM PST by jmc813 (Michael Schiavo is a bigger scumbag than Bill Clinton)
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To: Matchett-PI
Gary North is a religious kook.

Yeah, but I respect his allegience to Ronald Reagan. Besides, any LTC in the Marines is alright by me.

Oh, GARY North.

Never mind.

85 posted on 11/17/2003 2:18:02 PM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING FELLOW FREEPERS SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: jmc813
Would you guys please quit bothering Jim. I'm pretty confident that he has more important things to worry about.

Well, one good KNOCK IT OFF generally cures most ills. :o)

86 posted on 11/17/2003 2:18:58 PM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING FELLOW FREEPERS SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: AlguyA
"LaHaye .."

LaHaye is a sheep-shearing grifter-kook

87 posted on 11/17/2003 2:19:14 PM PST by Matchett-PI (Why do America's enemies desperately want DemocRATS back in power?)
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To: jmc813
? Now ya done it. Ya sucked me into a thread about denominational infighting. Everyone's gonna look at me, go "There's a JOOOOOO...." and rush me. :o)
88 posted on 11/17/2003 2:20:30 PM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY SCARING FELLOW FREEPERS SINCE 1999 !!!!)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Man, I can feel the love...
89 posted on 11/17/2003 2:29:31 PM PST by malakhi (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.)
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To: Precisian
This is an amazingly destructive slander, typical of the fever-pitched idiocy of those who don't know what they are talking about. Free Republic should not tolerate such insane postings.

Oh, the irony.

90 posted on 11/17/2003 2:30:52 PM PST by malakhi (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.)
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To: Lazamataz
Everyone's gonna look at me, go "There's a JOOOOOO...." and rush me. :o)

Laz, you can't even join the club (well, unless you convert).

From the 2nd link in post #50:

All converted Jews and Gentiles stand on the same plane of blessing in God's sight, just as all unconverted Jews and Gentiles stand on the same plane of judgment in God's sight.

91 posted on 11/17/2003 2:34:31 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thanks for the ping.
92 posted on 11/17/2003 2:35:42 PM PST by Law
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To: Catspaw; ckca
I thought this thread was a discussion of Christian Reconstructionism.

You're mistaken. This thread was designed to be a hit piece on conservative Christians. That's why from the very beginning the main posters don't discuss the article's contents but rather attack Christians. Here's a typical early post that illustrates the case:

These loons are more dangerous than al Quaida because they are hiding in our own institutions.

We need to work on getting them to drink their own Kool-Aid, and soon.

It's only after attacks like this that Christians such as ckca return fire.

93 posted on 11/17/2003 2:44:35 PM PST by Law
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To: Catspaw; ckca
How nice. Christian "Wahhabi's".

Here's another example of the alleged "discussion" of Reconstructionism. See how it's just another attack on Christians?

94 posted on 11/17/2003 2:47:21 PM PST by Law
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To: Law; ckca
It's only after attacks like this that Christians such as ckca return fire.

By being rude, dragging arguments from other threads, personally attacking another freeper and telling me to get lost, and telling me that more than once? ckca's words went way beyond inappropriate into abusive.

95 posted on 11/17/2003 2:48:46 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: Law
Do you agree with this statement? It's from a link in post #50:

All converted Jews and Gentiles stand on the same plane of blessing in God's sight, just as all unconverted Jews and Gentiles stand on the same plane of judgment in God's sight.

96 posted on 11/17/2003 2:49:48 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: Catspaw; ckca
More of the old familiar names.

Add in Roy Moore, or at least his lawyers:

This, also, isn't "discussion" but, rather, an effort to spread guilt by association.

97 posted on 11/17/2003 2:50:53 PM PST by Law
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To: jmc813
OK, fine by me. I've accomplished my goals on this thread.
98 posted on 11/17/2003 2:53:03 PM PST by ckca
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To: Catspaw; ckca
Every religion has its mental marginals that wind up using it as a tool of destruction. This group are those kind of people. They don't worship their God, they worship their own psychosis.

More of the same fake discussion. All it is name-calling.

99 posted on 11/17/2003 2:53:03 PM PST by Law
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To: Servant of the 9; OrthodoxPresbyterian
There was a time when a freeper called Born again Christians "Tailborn again "

Rather interesting seeing it was Calvinists that believe in the sovereignty of God that formed the country you live in


From an old FR Post

I feel that I ought to point out that the majority of our nation's Christian founders/framers between 1775 and 1788 were Calvinists, not Arminians. ~~ Oh, absolutely not. The majority were Deists. There is a very great difference between a Deist and a Calvinist, but you can't possible know it with a working knowldge of history.


That's ridiculous.

Denominational Affiliations of the Framers of the Constitution
Dr. Miles Bradford of the University of Dallas did a study on the denominational classifications that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention accepted for themselves. Contrary to myth, the following list, published by Bradford, indicates that only 3 out of 55 of the framers classified themselves as Deists.

Note: only those Denominations whose Confessions of Faith were expressly Calvinistic at this time have been identified as "Calvinist" denominations. While many "Old-School" Lutherans and "Whitfield" Methodists at this time would have identified themselves with a Calvinistic view of Predestination, their affiliation has for the sake of charity been assumed to be non-Calvinist.

New Hampshire

* John Langdon, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* Nicholas Gilman, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
Massachusetts

* Elbridge Gerry, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Rufus King, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Caleb Strong, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* Nathaniel Gorham, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
Connecticut

* Roger Sherman, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* William Johnson, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Oliver Ellsworth, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
New York

* Alexander Hamilton, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* John Lansing, DUTCH REFORMED -- Calvinist
* Robert Yates, DUTCH REFORMED -- Calvinist
New Jersey

* William Patterson, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* William Livingston, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Jonathan Dayton, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* David Brearly, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* William Churchill Houston, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist

Pennsylvania

* Benjamin Franklin, DEIST
* Robert Morris, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James Wilson, DEIST
* Gouverneur Morris, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Thomas Mifflin, QUAKER
* George Clymer, QUAKER
* Thomas FitzSimmons, ROMAN CATHOLIC
* Jared Ingersoll, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist

Delaware

* John Dickinson, QUAKER
* George Read, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Richard Bassett, METHODIST
* Gunning Beford, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Jacod Broom, LUTHERAN

Maryland

* Luther Martin, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Daniel Carroll, ROMAN CATHOLIC
* John Mercer, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James McHenry, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Daniel Jennifer, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
Virginia

* George Washington, EPISCOPALIAN (Non-Communicant)
* James Madison, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* George Mason, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Edmund Randolph, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James Blair, Jr., EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* James McClung, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* George Wythe, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
North Carolina

* William Davie, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Hugh Williamson, DEIST
* William Blount, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Alexander Martin, PRESBYTERIAN -- Calvinist
* Richard Spaight, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
South Carolina

* John Rutledge, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Charles Pinckney, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Pierce Butler, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* Charles Pinckney, III, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
Georgia

* Abraham Baldwin, CONGREGATIONALIST -- Calvinist
* William Leigh Pierce, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* William Houstoun, EPISCOPALIAN -- Calvinist
* William Few, METHODIST

Some may say, "well, this list only shows what churches these men were members of, it doesn't show what they believed." Which is a veiled way of suggesting that these men were liars when they swore to God to adopt the confessions of their churches when they became members of these churches (most churches back then required an "examination" of members when they were received into full membership).
100 posted on 11/17/2003 2:54:17 PM PST by RnMomof7
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