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BRUCE ALMIGHTY: Atheism's Critique of Arminianism

Posted on 11/30/2003 5:21:17 PM PST by drstevej

Bruce Nolan (Carrey), a television reporter in Buffalo, N.Y.,is discontented with almost everything in life despite his popularity and the love of his girlfriend, Grace (Aniston) . At the end of the worst day of his life, Bruce angrily ridicules and rages against God and God responds. God appears in human form (Freeman) and, endowing Bruce with divine powers, challenges Bruce to take on the big job to see if he can do it any better.

 

 

Bruce Nolan:       How do you make someone love you without changing free will?
God:                     Welcome to my world.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
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Bruce Almighty is an insightful lampoon on a God who "can't mess with free will."
1 posted on 11/30/2003 5:21:17 PM PST by drstevej
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To: drstevej
I guess I'm going to have to rent the movie now.
2 posted on 11/30/2003 5:28:33 PM PST by Wrigley
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To: Wrigley
"You Got the Power!"
3 posted on 11/30/2003 5:36:28 PM PST by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Bruce Almighty is an insightful lampoon on a God who "can't mess with free will." ~ drstevej Woody.
4 posted on 11/30/2003 5:52:40 PM PST by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)
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To: drstevej
Have you seen this movie?

I had not, because I had assumed based upon the previews that the movie was blasphemous. But what I heard from a friend is that it actually raises a good point: do you really think you can do a better job than the Almighty?

I might have to rent it after all.

5 posted on 11/30/2003 6:03:04 PM PST by jude24
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To: jude24
***Have you seen this movie? ***

Saw it this weekend. "Almighty" is a bit of overstatement in the movie's concept of God. The God in the movie has a strict rule against messing with free will. As a result He is quite frustrated and settles for the best He can do.

There is the typical crudities and general blasphemies you would expect when Jim Carey is God. But the "free will" angle is fascinating. It really illustrates what Calvinists have been telling Arminians here for many moons.

I am so thankful God messed with my heart and gave me the will to love Him.
6 posted on 11/30/2003 6:15:26 PM PST by drstevej
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins
PING
7 posted on 11/30/2003 7:06:21 PM PST by drstevej
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To: drstevej
I don't think there is anything on earth that could make me want to see this movie. I am afraid lightening will strike me! :-)
8 posted on 11/30/2003 8:06:48 PM PST by ladyinred (The Left have blood on their hands!)
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To: ladyinred
I understand.
9 posted on 11/30/2003 8:11:23 PM PST by drstevej
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To: drstevej; P-Marlowe
Hollywood, huh?

There's an acceptable broker..../sarcasm.
10 posted on 11/30/2003 8:18:42 PM PST by xzins (Proud to be Army!)
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To: CCWoody
One of these days I'll bet we'll get to heaven to find out that neither the Calvinists nor the Arminian's have it figured out. We'll all have a good laugh about the whole thing (with perhaps some mourning that perhaps our infighting drove away some souls), and then we'll promptly set it a side to get down to the business of enjoying our eternal home and worshipping its landlord.
11 posted on 11/30/2003 8:56:05 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: mcg1969
As a Calvinist, I cannot drive anyone away. Nor can I bring anyone to Christ.

That my friend, is very refreshing.
12 posted on 12/01/2003 6:15:30 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: Gamecock
Your logic is flawed. You say, "As a Calvinist, I cannot drive anyone away." (As if I could, just because I'm not.) If Calvinism is false, then the fact that you're a Calvinist matters naught. So the proper way to say it is, "If Calvinism is true, I cannot drive anyone away."

And that brings me to the point: are you really that sure that Calvinism is 100% correct? Any doctrine constructed by humans is likely to be flawed somehow. I know, I know, you say it wasn't constructed by humans, it was constructed by God. But we humans had to discover the doctrine from Scripture. And we see through the glass darkly, my friend.

It seems therefore worthwhile to live out the Great Commission under the assumption that we do not fully understand the nature of free will, predestination, and election.

13 posted on 12/01/2003 8:24:54 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: mcg1969
Paul teaches Calvinism, so does Christ, John, as a matter of fact, the totality of scripture teaches Calvinism.

I believe scripture.

Do you have a problem with the inerrancy of scripture? If you have an issue with scripture, you have a bigger problem than you lack of understanding of Calvinism.

If you don't have a problem with inerrancy, why not reread the Bible from front to back and we'll meet back here and discuss it. I'll give you a year.
14 posted on 12/01/2003 8:32:20 AM PST by Gamecock (Paul was a Calvinist)
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To: mcg1969
But we humans had to discover the doctrine from Scripture. And we see through the glass darkly, my friend.

Oh, BTW: Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

You are opposing sound doctrine my friend.

15 posted on 12/01/2003 8:36:00 AM PST by Gamecock (Paul was a Calvinist)
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To: CCWoody
The amusing thing here is that I can freely grant to you pretty much whatever you want, ask these questions and you are theologically checkmated because you cannot answer them without blasphemying God.

Yawn.

You have, by couching the question in such a manner, intellectually checkmated yourself, because to introduce 'blasphemy' into the equation is assuming a predetermined set of conditions already exist, thus assuring from the beginning that all contentions are, by default, skewed in favor of one outcome.

And I do find that terribly amusing.

What's amusing is that you aren't even aware of what you did.

16 posted on 12/01/2003 9:25:41 AM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: mcg1969
Your reply to Gamecock: And that brings me to the point: are you really that sure that Calvinism is 100% correct? Any doctrine constructed by humans is likely to be flawed somehow. I know, I know, you say it wasn't constructed by humans, it was constructed by God. But we humans had to discover the doctrine from Scripture. And we see through the glass darkly, my friend.

You might find it interesting that the FR Calvinist swarm claims that Calvinism encompasses a range of differing beliefs and is not a monolithic set of doctrinal precepts.

You will also note that the swarm equates Calvinism, at least as they individually perceive it, with the Gospel message of the Bible; even to the point of claiming that Calvinism is the Gospel.

Some of the swarm are so arrogant as to claim that even the Calvinist Charles Spurgeon was wrong about predestination.

17 posted on 12/01/2003 9:41:39 AM PST by connectthedots
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To: Gamecock
Oh please, your arrogance is amusing.

Plenty of people more knowledgeable than either of us disagree on the question of Calvinism, and you know it. People who study Scripture with fervor, intelligence, care, Spirit, and faith, with a firm belief in inerrancy, come to a variety of conclusions about many issues in Scripture. They recognize the apparent (but not actual) contradictions free will, predestination, and election; and they them in a variety of ways. Calvinism is just one such way. (Well, of course, it's not just "one" such way, because even Calvinists disagree on the details.)

You know this all quite well, I'm sure. That you would speak as if you don't is disingenuous.

18 posted on 12/01/2003 10:21:19 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: mcg1969
Please forgive my typo, corrected here:

They recognize the apparent (but not actual) contradictions in the area of free will, predestination, and election; and they resolve them in a variety of ways.

19 posted on 12/01/2003 10:23:01 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: connectthedots
Thanks for the info. I'm somewhat new here as you probably know so I'm still learning about the various cliques here.
20 posted on 12/01/2003 10:24:01 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: connectthedots
LOL!

We disagree with Spurgeon far less than you do, my friend.

21 posted on 12/01/2003 10:34:39 AM PST by Frumanchu (mene mene tekel upharsin)
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To: connectthedots
Some of the swarm are so arrogant as to claim that even the Calvinist Charles Spurgeon was wrong about predestination.

If we slavishly followed Spurgeon, you'd accuse us of worshipping Spurgeon. (You've done it with Calvin, as it is). Calvinists are in no way obliged to agree 100% with any human writer; we're all fallible.

22 posted on 12/01/2003 10:35:04 AM PST by jude24
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To: mcg1969
Oh please, your arrogance is amusing.

Why thank you! I try to entertain and inform!

BTW, I find it amusing how you appear to build your entire doctrine on John 3:16 instead of the entirety of Scripture, an ad hominem for good measure and an ad judicium for additonal flavor.

If you want to argue based on the totality of scripture, I'll be happy to participate. If all you care to do throw zingers, I'll be happy with that as well.

(BTW, I'm glad your new bestest buddy, ctd, has clued you in to his own twisted view of the Doctrines of Grace. He is usually good for a chuckle, especially when his medications need adjusting. But alas, he can't participate as often as he would like. He is busy working on a major thesis he promised on Saturday. Which Saturday, we have no idea. That, coupled with his obsession on dancing lesbians and strangling preachers keeps him very busy. BTW, did he mention that his IQ is 170! We are in grateful of the time he does spend with us!)

23 posted on 12/01/2003 10:55:03 AM PST by Gamecock (Paul was a Calvinist)
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To: Gamecock
How rude of me!

Pinging ctd! Post 23! ctd, post 23....
24 posted on 12/01/2003 10:57:32 AM PST by Gamecock (Paul was a Calvinist)
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To: jude24; drstevej
I had not, because I had assumed based upon the previews that the movie was blasphemous. But what I heard from a friend is that it actually raises a good point: do you really think you can do a better job than the Almighty? ~ jude24 Some people have received twenty different "gospels" in as many years; how many more they will accept before they get to their journey's end, it would be difficult to predict. I thank God that He early taught me the gospel, and I have been so perfectly satisfied with it, that I do not want to know any other.... ~ C.H. Spurgeon in A Defense of Calvinism

Woody.
25 posted on 12/01/2003 11:17:24 AM PST by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)
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To: mcg1969
One of these days I'll bet we'll get to heaven to find out that neither the Calvinists nor the Arminian's have it figured out. We'll all have a good laugh about the whole thing (with perhaps some mourning that perhaps our infighting drove away some souls), and then we'll promptly set it a side to get down to the business of enjoying our eternal home and worshipping its landlord. ~ mcg1969 Woody.

P.S. Try your guilt trips on someone who believes that their precious free will is more powerful than God.
26 posted on 12/01/2003 11:21:34 AM PST by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)
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To: Pahuanui
Yawn.

You have, by couching the question in such a manner, intellectually checkmated yourself, because to introduce 'blasphemy' into the equation is assuming a predetermined set of conditions already exist, thus assuring from the beginning that all contentions are, by default, skewed in favor of one outcome.
~ Pahuanui Woody.
27 posted on 12/01/2003 11:27:34 AM PST by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)
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To: Gamecock
You continue to fail to get my point, which I guess you were predestined to do, so there's nothing I can do about it. And you're clearly a troll, in the Slashdot sense of the word, as your silly assertion that I'm simply arguing from John 3:16 demonstrates.

Unlike you, I readily admit that I do not have the qualifications to whip out my Bibles and have a conclusive debate about Calvinism. My gosh I don't even have an informed and secure position, because I find Scripture heady and challenging and, at times, paradoxical (and yet not contradictory). Granted, I am skeptical of Calvinism as I also am of Arminianism, seeing them as two ends of a paradoxical spectrum. But I won't bother to debate with you, because doing so would solve nothing: in the end it would leave people far more intelligent and qualified than either of us in disagreement on the issue.

Besides, the primary reason for my participation in this thread has not been to challenge your doctrine at all, it has been to challenge your attitude. And it's quite clear that I have failed to move you in any regard on that matter.

If you are indeed correct, than I can only hope I am included among the elect so that I can pat you on the back in heaven and thank you for your faithfulness---and hear your apology for your pride.

28 posted on 12/01/2003 11:30:44 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: mcg1969; Gamecock
Oh please, your arrogance is amusing. ~ mcg1969 Plenty of people more knowledgeable than either of us disagree on the question of Calvinism, and you know it. ~ mcg1969 Woody.
29 posted on 12/01/2003 11:34:00 AM PST by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)
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To: CCWoody
Did you know than not a single non-Calvinist has been able to answer the quesions.

Since it's clear that the nature of my reply was well over your head, I'll simplify it for you.

If your questions were answered or not is irrelevant. Their very nature (and the fact that you asked them) presumes conditions that bias any reply towards your own position.

So, my questions stand and all the world knows that the questions remain unanswered or even unchallenged in any meaningful way.

Your questions are as laughable as your inability to understand why they discount the possibility of any meaningful exchange of ideas.

30 posted on 12/01/2003 11:34:52 AM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud)
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To: mcg1969; Gamecock
mcg1969 to Game Cock ***And you're clearly a troll***

As the initiator of the thread, I welcome GC's presence here and comments. You are welcome as well. I can identify with your uncertainty between Calvinism and Arminianism (been there).

The study of Scripture and reading what Calvinists say (as opposed to caricatures of Calvinism) moved me from Arminianism to Calvinism (the 4 point variety).
31 posted on 12/01/2003 12:03:10 PM PST by drstevej
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To: CCWoody
I wonder how many people you are ultimately sending to hell because of your bickering. We may never know.

You're asking the wrong person that question, my friend. I started with a simple comment basically about how we basically have a limited understanding of God in this physical universe and won't know in full until glory. (Given your tagline, I think you would at least agree with that general principle.) It's easy enough to see where the mudslinging came from.

The Reformation took place without the help of Arminianism and when she finally did enter the church, she did so as a troubler

I understand your point. Please understand I am not an Arminian apologist. In fact, the five-sentence TULIP synopsis is on its face reasonable to me. But of course, Calvinism is much more detailed than that. And since Calvinist adherents themselves disagree about the details of their own doctrine I don't mind identifying myself as "in continual education, continually awestruck."

Again my issue is with attitude not content. I have seen equally objectionable posturing from non-Calvinists as well.

32 posted on 12/01/2003 12:04:24 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: mcg1969
And you're clearly a troll

I know my position, you on the otherhand are clueless:

My gosh I don't even have an informed and secure position

And you call me a troll????

But I won't bother to debate with you, because doing so would solve nothing: in the end it would leave people far more intelligent and qualified than either of us in disagreement on the issue.

BWAHHAA, speak for yourself! I've seen a lot of pride on both sides of the debate, but never pride about total ignorance.

FYI, Every Calvinist I know, both here in the virtual world and real life, was once an Arminian. (myself included) Only when they could let go of the pop-psych "I'm a good person!" mantra did they come to grips with the Doctrines of Grace. One day, when God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, lifts the scales from your eyes, you will be see what a sinner you really are, how every fiber of your being is sinful, how in your natuaral state you wanted nothing of God. Then, and only then, will you understand what we Calvinists are talking about.

it has been to challenge your attitude

What, that I am a sinner? You want to expose that I don't deserve one iota of the Grace God has given me? That I am a wretch and in my fallen state wanted nothing to do with a Holy God? I confess that every night, and you accuse me of being prideful? I thank God that he did not leave me to my precious free will!

That my friend, is what Calvinism is all about.

33 posted on 12/01/2003 12:07:08 PM PST by Gamecock
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To: Gamecock
Brother, I have no pride about my ignorance. It is not something to be proud of, but rather something for me to strive to correct. I guess that's part of what it means to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, I suppose. Pride rather is not recognizing ignorance where it exists.
34 posted on 12/01/2003 12:16:50 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: drstevej; xzins; Corin Stormhands; CCWoody; Wrigley; CARepubGal; RnMomof7
I am so thankful God messed with my heart and gave me the will to love Him.

Drsteve....dont you have mormons to play with

Hope your holiday was enjoyable, but of course it was predestined to be.

I particularly enjoyed the scene where Carrey asks God into his heart

hey help me out with a question.... I was staring at my kids the other day trying to think hard (as hard as an arminian can think, pondering calvinism) - how do I tell if theyre elect or unelect - when does that happen? -

we can play this game if you want- I just see it as a rehash on the arminian bash, when there is such a target rich environment over on fair

your silly pal rev

besides - youre not even a real calvinist - I thought double pre-desters were the only card carrying ones......OP told me LOL

- youre only a friggin 4 pointer - who's right - you - OP or the Amyrauldian?

whats on your servetus burger tonight?

you know I love you like a brother right? LOL

35 posted on 12/01/2003 12:56:03 PM PST by Revelation 911
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To: mcg1969
Well, I am reminded of a writing by the son of my favorite theologian.

Check it out, if you are so inclined:
http://www.razormouth.com/archives/00000067.htm
36 posted on 12/01/2003 1:24:18 PM PST by Gamecock
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To: drstevej
Thanks for the gentle and sane words, drstevej.

Emphasis mine:
The study of Scripture and reading what Calvinists say (as opposed to caricatures of Calvinism) moved me from Arminianism to Calvinism (the 4 point variety).

You're helping me illustrate my point here. The divisions within Calvinism alone are evidence for the need for care and humility in our approach to disagreements. Granted I know this thread is focused on Arminianism, but removing Arminianism from the sphere hardly eliminates all dispute.

Reminds me of the following joke, with which I'll end my participation in this thread:

A guy is standing at the edge of a bridge, ready to jump off, when a second man runs up to stop him.
"Don't do it!" He says. "You must have something to live for! There must be something I can tell you to help you want to live. What about your faith in God? Do you believe in God?"
"Yes! I do! I'm a Christian, actually."
"Great! Me too! Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant."
"ME TOO! Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, C.O.G.?"
"Lutheran!"
"I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! ME TOO!"
"German Lutheran or American Lutheran?"
"American."
"ME TOO! What friends we can be! Wisconsin Synod or Missouri?"
"Wisconsin!"
"Die, heretic!" says the second man, and pushes the first off the bridge...

37 posted on 12/01/2003 1:34:50 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: connectthedots; mcg1969
"Some of the swarm are so arrogant as to claim that even the Calvinist Charles Spurgeon was wrong about predestination."

No, we claim that Spurgeon was wrong on 1 Timothy 2:4 -NOT about predestination.

Since you conceded the definition of the Greek word "Pas" to the Calvinists and subsequently ran away from our current conversation (you seem to have the habit of running away from conversations and not following through on your promised defenses), we have not had the opportunity to get to 1 Timothy 2:4 and Spurgeon.

But remember, our disagreement is not with Spurgeon on predestination. For Spurgeon was an ardent 5 Point Calvinist who strongly upheld the "L" of Limited Atonement.

Our disagreement is with Spurgeon on his interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4.

Let's be honest about this, ctd.

Jean

38 posted on 12/01/2003 2:14:19 PM PST by Jean Chauvin (Sola Scriptura---Sola Fida---Sola Gracia---Sola Christus---Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: CCWoody
I wonder how many people you are ultimately sending to hell because of your bickering. We may never know.

woody....cmon - pot...kettle....black

how was the mother of all calvinist holidays at the clear channel woody house?

39 posted on 12/01/2003 2:24:29 PM PST by Revelation 911
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To: mcg1969
Am familiar with the joke, but prefer the version told by Emo Phillips.

Do you really understand the difference between Calvinism and Amyrauldianism (4 point Calvinism)? If you do you realize that Amyrauldians are clearly in the Calvinistic camp, differing on the order of the decree and a text or two.

On the otherhand, Arminianism is a radically different perspective on God and man. So don't misunderstand what is at stake here in the discussion.

Keep participating, you have more to learn. Participating helps sharpen your understanding.
40 posted on 12/01/2003 2:37:39 PM PST by drstevej (There is no Free Will in Heaven)
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To: Revelation 911; OrthodoxPresbyterian
[1] OP has given me his blessing to carry the Calvinist card (neener, neener, neener).

[2] You can tell whether your kids are elect or not the same way you can with anyone else. Since you can not see a new heart, you listen to their profession and look for the results of a new heart. Mine are 17 and 21 and I am confident they are elect.

[3] Servetus burgers, believe it or not, are often served with [as] red herrings.

[4] I am bummed at the FAIR mods. My FR namesake (WM Jr) claimed that he was God's gift to me. I replied, "I asked for hemorrhoids. God works in mysterious ways." The mods applied preparation H to my post.

[5] Who says Arminians and Calvinist-Lites can't get along? We show they can. Blessings to you...


***there is such a target rich environment over on fair***

Is "target rich" a double entendre?

- FAIR's White Mountain (aka FR's drstevej)
41 posted on 12/01/2003 2:52:51 PM PST by drstevej (There is no Free Will in Heaven)
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To: drstevej
I enjoyed noticing that this prohibition against "messing with free will" was not (and could not be) absolutely observed.

Most notably was when Bruce manipulated his rival Evan while Evan was on camera.

There were a few other examples as well.

Jean
42 posted on 12/01/2003 3:39:58 PM PST by Jean Chauvin (Sola Scriptura---Sola Fida---Sola Gracia---Sola Christus---Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: drstevej
Got you beat. I am a 4 1/2 point. Are you coming to Atlanta Sat. Night? Ihad a great time at Bobby Dodd Sat. your Alma Mater was very hospitable.
43 posted on 12/01/2003 3:49:34 PM PST by Blessed
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To: CCWoody
Hey Woody, ask them if Mary could have said "NO".
44 posted on 12/01/2003 5:09:24 PM PST by irishtenor (Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati ............(When all else fails, play dead))
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To: CCWoody; jude24; drstevej; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; irishtenor; Revelation 911
Most movies are Arminian in attitude. Hollywood got the memo long ago and has played ball ever since.

The most Calvinist movie I've ever seen is the great "Unforgiven."

"Deserves got nothing to do with it."

We're watching "Bruce Pretty-Mighty" tonight. Should be interesting.

45 posted on 12/01/2003 5:44:11 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Yes, I'm listening to the clay-mation "Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer" in the background.....wife, daughter, grandson are watching it.

Herbie the elf wants to be a dentist. Rudolf wants to be accepted. Burl Ives just wants to sing.

Clearly Arminian. /sarcasm

46 posted on 12/01/2003 6:26:13 PM PST by xzins (Proud to be Army!)
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To: xzins
Herbie will become a denist because that's God's will.

Rudolf will be accepted, though many will whisper he drinks on the sly.

Burl Ives sang all he wanted, but alas, he sings no more.

(Hope I didn't spoil it for you.)

47 posted on 12/01/2003 6:45:17 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: drstevej
I thought it was a brilliant line. I liked the way the beggar became God too. Very insightful.
48 posted on 12/01/2003 7:40:27 PM PST by MarMema
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To: drstevej; CCWoody
Ok I freely admit, of my own will, (LOL)to having found this to post here instead of trying to do it in my own words. That said, let's hear what you have to say about it.

"Luther and his followers could not bring themselves to draw the extreme conclusions that logically flowed from their false teaching on man's salvation. Calvin and Zwingli and their reformer-followers proved to be more consistent.

If good works have no significance whatsoever in the matter of salvation, if man through sin has lost every capacity for good, and if even faith - the sole condition for salvation - is God's gift, the question naturally arises: why then are not all men saved, why do some receive grace, while others believe and perish?

There can be only one answer to this question, and the reformers give it: "From eternity, God predestined some for salvation, others for perdition, and this predestination depends not at all on a man's personal freedom and life."

The erroneousness of the reformers'teaching is obvious. It perverts the truly Christian understanding of God's justice and mercy, of man's worth and purpose as a free and rational being. God appears here not as a loving, merciful Father, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4), but as a cruel, unjust despot, who saves some without any merit and dooms others without fault to perdition.

The Orthodox Church also recognizes predestination, but does not consider it unconditional, that is, independent of men's free well and based on a groundless decision of the divine will. According to Orthodox teaching, God, as omniscient, knows, foresees the moral state of men and, on the basis of this foresight, preordains, predetermines for them a certain fate."

Putting on the flameproof suit in advance....

49 posted on 12/01/2003 7:52:13 PM PST by MarMema
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To: drstevej; CCWoody
here's the rest...

"But He does not preordain for anyone a definite moral state; He does not preordain either a virtuous or a sinful life and does not at all inhibit our freedom. Therefore, even the Apostle Paul, whom the reformers cite, very closely connects the teaching on predestination with the teaching on God's foresight. In the Epistle to the Romans, he explains this thought in detail, and, incidentally, says concerning predestina-tion: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son? Moreover whom he did pre-destinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30). In this way, God predestinates to glory not according to His groundless arbitrariness, as the reformers think, but according to His foreknowledge of a man's merits accomplished through his free will."

50 posted on 12/01/2003 7:53:30 PM PST by MarMema
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