Extent of abuse cases staggering, official says [Pilla to release "shocking" numbers]

Cleveland Plain Dealer ^ | 01/20/04 | Joel Rutchick and James F. McCarty

[Akron Al]

Extent of abuse cases staggering, official says 01/20/04Joel Rutchick and James F. McCarty Plain Dealer Reporters The top financial officer of the Cleveland Catholic Diocese has warned church leaders to expect "shocking" numbers when local figures are released as part of a nationwide report on the extent and cost of child sexual abuse. The findings from the past 52 years are contained in a survey of the 190 U.S. dioceses conducted by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. The results of the survey, commissioned by the nation's bishops, are scheduled to be announced Feb. 27. Many bishops around the country already have publicly disclosed the findings for their dioceses, and Bishop Anthony Pilla is expected to provide an advanced look at the Cleveland diocese's numbers in the next several weeks. At a meeting last month of the Catholic Charities Corp.'s board of trustees, Chief Financial Officer Joseph H. Smith said the millions of dollars the diocese spent on settlements with victims, their treatment and legal fees will be disturbing and larger than any figures yet reported in the media, according to people who were there. "People are going to be shocked," one board member said Smith told the group. Smith, reached at home on Monday, did not deny the reports. But he declined to speak specifically about the Cleveland diocese's numbers. Smith said he had been working on the study when he was suspended by Pilla on Jan. 6 after questions of financial wrongdoing were raised against him. Diocesan spokesman Bob Tayek would not speculate on the impact the report may have. "I wouldn't put [the numbers] in any category," Tayek said Monday. "We'll do that when we reveal them." Some of the factors that contributed to Cleveland's financial burden are already known. In December 2002, Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Bill Mason concluded a seven-month investigation of the diocese that found more than 1,000 people claimed to have been victimized as children by priests and church figures. He also found evidence of accusations against nearly 500 possible sexual offenders, of whom 145 were priests. Those numbers are among the highest in the country. In the Boston Archdiocese, considered the epicenter of the scandal, more than 500 people had come forward with clergy-abuse claims by the end of 2002. The archdiocese recently agreed to an $85-million settlement with 540 alleged victims. Last June, the diocese in Louisville, Ky., settled 243 sex-abuse lawsuits for $25.7 million. And the totals for Boston and Louisville could be even higher. Neither diocese has released its final tally of the cost of the sex-abuse scandal. Smith's gloomy assessment for the Catholic Charities board included warnings that donations are in decline and church attendance has waned in the wake of the sex-abuse scandal, several members said. But Smith also reported to the board that all of the diocese's costs related to sex abuse have been covered by insurance and accounting procedures. Smith said no money from Catholic Charities or the diocese's general fund was used to pay sex-abuse-related bills, which are expected to be among the highest in the country. Critics are skeptical about the accuracy of the study. "We think the numbers will be underreported," said David Clohessy, national director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. "By announcing the results early, the bishops get to say, Look how open we're being,' and they get to put their spin on the numbers. But how do we know they're telling the truth?" Clohessy asked. Plain Dealer news researcher Jo Ellen Corrigan contributed to this story. To reach these Plain Dealer reporters: jrutchick@plaind.com, 216-999-4829 jmccarty@plaind.com, 216-999-4858 © 2004 The Plain Dealer. Used with permission. Copyright 2004 cleveland.com. All Rights Reserved.

[Akron Al]

From previous stories on Bishop Pilla:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1060132/posts

In March, 2002, about two years after leaving the diocese, Charlie [the bishop's former lawyer] says he met again with Bishop Gries. “I met with Bishop Roger and I told him as a friend that he needed to tell Pilla to step down. That's all I said.”

I prod him to continue. “Because of the manner in which all of this had been handled.”

Charlie later says, “The thing that really fried me was the way the church in Cleveland has agreed to ‘infanticize' Anthony. It's like he's a child. ‘Oh, he didn't know this, he didn't know that.' Wait a minute, oh merciful God. Then what's he in charge of one million Catholics for? Yes, Quinn did crazy stuff, but he was a lieutenant, you are the general. Why didn't you stop it?

_________________________________________________________

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/762432/posts

The following appeared in "The Wanderer's" From the Mail Section.:

In Cleveland, which has been racked with the most damaging sex abuse scandals outside of Boston and Los Angeles, diocesan officials, including Bishop Anthony Pilla, maintain a stiff upper lip as some homosexual activists in the chancery and parishes continue to transform parishes into gay-friendly communities. Consider:

The Diocese of Cleveland's official web site (www.dioceseofcleveland.com) greets the viewer with a rainbow flag, and gay activists at the diocese's Gay and Lesbian Family Ministry (GLFM) office are way out and way proud.

One member of the GLFM recorded his experience on an area gay web site of his participation in the Cleveland Gay Pride Parade, informing, "The catholic group had a very nice sized contingent. There were a whole ton of other religious groups as well...Oh, did I mention that I am in the same video as a pornstar?!...Our table was almost across from The Grid's table, so we got to watch Matt Rush shirtless signing autographs and posing for pictures most of the afternoon. I felt so uncouth ogling a pornstar and trying to be a respectable representative of the Catholic Diocese of Cleveland...

"The Stonewall Democrats had the booth next to The Grid, and they had some mighty fine shirtless guys sitting at their table, too. After we took down our table at the pride festival, seven of us from the Catholic group went out to dinner...We also had the same waiter that we had last time...the cute one with attitude."

The author of that revealing letter is the apparent friend of Brian Halderman, a longtime gay activist of the Diocese of Cleveland who recently announced that he is joining the Society of Mary (Marianists) in Dayton.

In another Internet chat thread sent to FTM by a Cleveland reader, Halderman revealed that while a parishioner at Ascension Church (a church plagued by a number of predator priests), he was a chatechist involved in the sacramental preparation of second graders.

Reader, does all this help you understand what bishops such as Clark and Hubbard and Pilla mean by the "lay-run church.

You can contact the diocese of Cleveland toll free at 1-800-869-6525 or by e-mailing:

info@dioceseofcleveland.org

_________________________________________________________

The official logo for the Diocese of Cleveland Gay and Lesbian Ministry [Warning: This is not a joke]:<

Go see for yourself:

http://www.dioceseofcleveland.org/gayandlesbianfamilyministry/mission/index.htm

The official logo for the Diocese of Cleveland Gay and Lesbian Ministry

_________________________________________________________

---------------------------------------------------------

The following exchange appeared in an article on a gay convicted priest here in Cleveland. [Note: Burkhart is a gay detective and McBride is the gay priest]:

Burkhart and McBride dined on crab cakes and chatted lightly. After dinner, McBride turned the conversation to the recent Catholic Church scandal. He hoped that, when it was all over, the church would recognize that priests are sexual beings too -- and that some are gay.

"Back in the 1960s, would you have ever come to a place like this?" Burkhart asked. "I mean, in this town, where you were working?"

"Probably not, no," McBride said. "Realistically, in 1960, no."

"And in certain places it looks like the seminary on Saturday night now," Burkhart joked.

"Yeah, that really is how it is," McBride said.

They compared notes on seeing clergy in gay bars. Then Burkhart stammered as he asked McBride a personal question: "So, whenever you had sex . . . were you bound to go to confession and confess it before you said Mass, or . . .?"

"Well, you were supposed to, yes," McBride said.

"Do you think all these priests do?"

"No," McBride said. "I think they changed their minds and decided it's not a sin."

The full article can be found at this link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/992919/posts

[Akron Al]

Please help expose what is going on in Cleveland so that pressure will mount for Bishop Pilla's removal. If you have friends in the Catholic Media encourage them to cover this very disturbing story.

[Loyalist]

Dignity and all the other so-called homosexual ministries should be RICO'd.

[Akron Al]

Im not sure why the national media and the Catholic Press have ignored Cleveland. The numbers are overwhelming.
Perhaps it is because the connection between molesting and and the gay-run diocese is so clear. From today's story:



In December 2002, Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Bill Mason concluded a seven-month investigation of the diocese that found more than 1,000 people claimed to have been victimized as children by priests and church figures.

He also found evidence of accusations against nearly 500 possible sexual offenders, of whom 145 were priests.

Those numbers are among the highest in the country.

In the Boston Archdiocese, considered the epicenter of the scandal, more than 500 people had come forward with clergy-abuse claims by the end of 2002. The archdiocese recently agreed to an $85-million settlement with 540 alleged victims.

[NeoCaveman]

Well, looks like our dioscese will be going bankrupt. That is the natural result of lavender coddling.

[Akron Al]

Well, looks like our dioscese will be going bankrupt. That is the natural result of lavender coddling.

Well, it is already morally bankrupt. Perhaps if it goes financially bankrupt, we will get some attention from Rome.

[BlackElk]

If the homosexual groups claim to be Catholic by mail or wire, mail fraud and wire fraud are specific "predicate acts" or crimes among the few allowed to underlie RICO suits or prosecutions.

[ninenot]

Yeah, but you need a Federal PROSECUTOR to go after wire/mail fraud--kinda like the guy we now have in Eastern District of Wisconsin.

[saradippity]

I'm not sure why the national media and the Catholic Press have ignored Cleveland.The numbers are overwhelmin Perhaps it is because the connection between molisting and the gay-run diocese is so clear.

Over the past several years a picture is emerging,especially when one starts connecting dots. I appreciate your observation I had puzzled over Cleveland's "protective bubble" for a while,just never connected.

I get copies of the Universe Bulletin from a friend occasionally and have many Cleveland friends and distant relatives there who are Catholic. The discussions I have had with them regards the "scandal" are quite curious. People,who I know to be bright and appear holy,act dazed,confused,indignant or dumbfounded when I ask them what they think about the terrible problem they have in the Church there.

Despite that I believe there is a solid core of good,orthodox Catholics there just waiting but trusting that a good bishop will be sent to them.

Our prayers seem to have been answered here in Phoenix,but I sense the lavenders have put their Plan B into operation.Out here we do not have a core of well catechized Catholics so he is going to have his hands full. But we do have at least four parishes with 24/7 Adoration and I think that has been a powerful force for good in the diocese.It has resulted in some great priests being ordained over the past few years.

Anyway I wish you all well!!

Any more news on the story about the gay seminarian who killed the pastor,who had reported him and then burned the rectory last summer? I'd like a little follow up on that one,please. Thanks.

[saradippity]

Interesting thread,with a good observation by Akron Al. A little fuel for those of us who try to wake people up to the identity of some of the more incorrible bishops.

[Salvation]

Al,
The numbers are coming out at the end of February for all the dioceses! This is going to be quite enlightening.

Will the bishops tell the truth. I know we will all discuss it.

I think the date is February 27th.

[Salvation]

Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via Freepmail if you would like to be added to or removed from the Catholic Discussion Ping list.

[Maximilian]

People,who I know to be bright and appear holy,act dazed,confused,indignant or dumbfounded when I ask them what they think about the terrible problem they have in the Church there.

This is a natural defense mechanism. I too know several people living in the Cleveland diocese, and I wish I could get them to wake up to the reality of what they're participating in and supporting. But they're the type who will keep going to their local parish until the day they die, even though they are no longer being provided the Catholic faith, and even though the parish they lived in their whole lives has had several priests exposed as abusers, the suicide of 1 priest, and now recent public revelations concerning about the only priest who had yet to be touched by the scandal.

[Polycarp IV]

Cleveland's mess certainly ranks as one of the worst, if not the worst.

I hate to say it, but one must ask, "Where is Rome in the face of corruption of this magnitude?"

[NYer]

Prosecutor Bill Mason concluded a seven-month investigation of the diocese that found more than 1,000 people claimed to have been victimized as children by priests and church figures.

Shocking? Not at all, coming from the Cleveland Diocese.

"You reap what you sow"

If this isn't a wakeup call to the Cleveland diocese, nothing is.

[Diago]

The Diocese of Cleveland is certainly out of control. Pilla should have resigned years ago. However, I happen to agree with the following post at
http://www.markshea.blogspot.com (click on the comments box under the title "The Great Enema Continues.):



From an earlier PD story:

http://www.cleveland.com/abuse/index.ssf?/abuse/more/103908428283790.html

"Without a doubt, but for the statute of limitations, many more priests would have been indicted," Mason said.

He said he intends to work with the Ohio legislature next year to loosen the law.

Nearly half of the 1,000-plus claims of abuse were trumped by statute of limitations violations - typically cases in which reputed victims failed to report the incidents within six years of reaching the age of 18.

Prosecutors deemed 92 of the sex-abuse cases timely and strong enough to present to the grand jury. But only 11 resulted in indictments.

*****

Do the Math, folks. 500 of the allegations were within the SOL. Of these, only 92 were strong enough for the Grand Jury. Of these, one priest was indicted. (And remember, a good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.)

Pilla needs to go for the reasons cited by AkronAl here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1061571/posts

But these numbers are grossly inflated.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 01.20.04 - 4:09 pm | #

[NeoCaveman]

I hate to say it, but one must ask, "Where is Rome in the face of corruption of this magnitude?"

I fear Rome has given up on the U.S. as our bishops have been so disobedient.

If you were the boss, would you help your lower management if they thwarted your every order? Or would you let them crash and burn and then pick up the pieces.

[Maximilian]

I hate to say it, but one must ask, "Where is Rome in the face of corruption of this magnitude?"

That's the forbidden question. You aren't allowed to ask that. We need to stay on message: "John Paul II The Great," destined for instant beatification, despite a few upsetting details like the collapse of the institutional church and unthinkable corruption of the clergy that occurred on his watch.

[heyheyhey]

What has happened in the US is almost the same with what happened in the Western Europe in the past few decades. I like the way the dirt comes out - it is a sign of God’s providence.

If the American Bishops don't come up with the solution (compare with the Boy Scouts' solution), Rome will need to step in even at the cost of creating a huge uproar from the AmChurch's "progressives."

[Maximilian]

I fear Rome has given up on the U.S. as our bishops have been so disobedient.

The US bishops have been much more compliant than the bishops in nearly every other country. Look at the German bishops who defied a direct order from the pope to stop giving out authorizations for women to have abortions (although I believe they eventually gave in). The Dutch bishops don't really even consider themselves to be under the pope's authority. What about the new Cardinal from Scotland who celebrated his nomination by giving an interview in which he publicly disagreed with several important Catholic positions which the pope has taken.

[heyheyhey]

If this isn't a wakeup call to the Cleveland diocese, nothing is.

If this isn't a wakeup call to the NCCB, nothing is.

[Maximilian]

Pilla needs to go for the reasons cited by AkronAl here: But these numbers are grossly inflated.

Agreed. Pilla needs to go because he's not a Catholic. And I personally know of several horrible abuse situations in Cleveland. However, the numbers are definitely inflated for reasons that combine politics and greed by the trial lawyers.

[Diago]

If you could find a way to get the meltdown in Cleveland some national press, we would be eternally grateful.

[johnb2004]

"That's the forbidden question."

Right you are.When I ask that I am usually told that the Catholic Church is so big one can't expect Rome to know what is happening in every diocese. It does strike one as peculiar that 40 years of dissent can't be dealt with. Then again, I am often told Rome wants to avoid schism.

Well,to me, an average Catholic who believes in obedience and redemptive suffering I find it strange that Rome allows so much error to be spread.

If anyone in any of these dioceses tried to say a Latin mass without permission the swiss guard would be sent in...

[cpforlife.org]

BTTT

For the sake of His Sorrowful Passion, have Mercy on us and on the whole world.

[Diago]

Then Burkhart stammered as he asked McBride a personal question: "So, whenever you had sex . . . were you bound to go to confession and confess it before you said Mass, or . . .?"

"Well, you were supposed to, yes," McBride said.

"Do you think all these priests do?"

"No," McBride said. "I think they changed their minds and decided it's not a sin."

***

The sad pathetic case of Father McBride says it all. Cleveland is the home of Futurechurch which resides on Church property at St. Mark's Parish.

This entire problem was caused by the fact that the Diocese of Cleveland is in open dissent and no longer believes in Sin. And yet, the groups that caused this situation are seeking to destroy the Church with the Scandal they helped to create.

Thus, you find the vicious anti-Catholics at the Plain Dealer going to the scalndal-causers at Futurechurch and quoting them as experts on how to solve all the Church's problems.

[heyheyhey]

The groups that caused this situation are seeking to destroy the Church with the Scandal they helped to create.

Thus, you find the vicious anti-Catholics at the Plain Dealer going to the scalndal-causers at Futurechurch and quoting them as experts on how to solve all the Church's problems.

This is where the scandal persists.

[Coleus]

`

[Desdemona]

I hate to say it, but one must ask, "Where is Rome in the face of corruption of this magnitude?"

Giving the bishops enough rope to hang themselves?

That's an awful thing to say, I know, but as all of this has come out since Bernardin died, and considering how he was adored by so many, the uncovering of the scandal is exposing the errors of the Amchurch types.

It's a painful purge, but better it happen than not.

[pax_et_bonum]

"I hate to say it, but one must ask, "Where is Rome in the face of corruption of this magnitude?"

I know where you're coming from.

I love the Church and have always treasured my Catholic faith.

However, there is no excusing the way these scandal cases have been mishandled.

I hope that this scandal situation will be for the Church like hitting bottom can be for an alcoholic: that's when they bounce back because there's no way to go but up.

[Jaded]

Our priest discussed the results from our Diocese yesterday. From the period beginning 1950 through last year there were 46 credible reports. The majority of them happened BEFORE 1980. 3.2 M paid out.

The priest was disgusted that this ever happened. He put it in terms of that the payout could have built and outfitted a new parish. The payout was covered at 50% by insurance and 50% the general fund (read tithes).

[brazucausa]

Thank you for ping.

"You reap what you sow"

If this isn't a wakeup call to the Cleveland diocese, nothing is.


Agree on that.

[AAABEST]

I would like to take the time to thank our protestant brothers and sisters for not using this thread the bash us, although I would almost understand it if they did. This is disgusting.

We'll have to return the favor somehow.

[Diago]

Another Reason why Bishop Pilla Needs to Resign:

But when the media began reporting that worshippers were required to embrace their fellow pew sitters before Communion, uniformity was the last thing on many Catholics' minds. Order me to hug a stranger? More like grounds for GIRM warfare.

As it turned out, the hugging instructions came not from Rome but from the Diocese of Cleveland, Ohio. The Rev. J-Glenn Murray, S.J., director of the diocese's liturgy office, apparently decided to use the new GIRM rules as a springboard for an overhaul of Mass gestures in Cleveland-area churches.

Murray decided, for example, that worshippers should pray the Our Father before Communion with their hands raised upward and apart--a posture known as the Orans that some Catholics already use, but which is far from universal. Then there were the infamous hugs, couched as an instruction that people "embrace" those near them instead of shaking hands, the usual gesture in a pre-Communion ritual popularly known as the Kiss of Peace. The most controversial of all of Murray's directives was an instruction that those receiving Communion not kneel down in prayer right afterwards, as most do now, but instead remain standing and singing in their pews.

See the article Mass Confusion at http://www.beliefnet.com/story/135/story_13535_1.html

[johnb2004]

beautiful. now this guys owns the mass.

[NeoCaveman]

Of course none of those things materialized. They did push the orans but very few takers. Standing after communion? Not where I go in Cleveland.

P.S. This is not a defense of Pilla or his GIRM tampering.

[Polycarp IV]

I fear Rome has given up on the U.S. as our bishops have been so disobedient.

If you were the boss, would you help your lower management if they thwarted your every order? Or would you let them crash and burn and then pick up the pieces.

I agree with this assessment completely, as it has been my own for several years. Furthermore, its myopic to judge the entire Church based on the abberrations of the West, which represents only a fraction of Catholics worldwide.

despite a few upsetting details like the collapse of the institutional church and unthinkable corruption of the clergy that occurred on his watch.

They occurred long before his watch. The beginning of the turning of the tide against this is occurring as a capstone at the ending of his pontificate.

No matter how much it pains traditionalists, history will see JPII as the Pope that began the turnaround from the destruction that started in the mid 20th century. They will see his approach as the only one available at his time in history.

Doesn't mean I like living through it, or that I don't question it at times as I did above.

[Polycarp IV]

The US bishops have been much more compliant than the bishops in nearly every other country. Look at the German bishops ... The Dutch bishops ... the new Cardinal from Scotland ...

Fortunately, the North American and European churches are NOT "The Church," but only a part of a much larger whole. Do not judge the universal Church on the abberrations here and in Europe.

[johnb2004]

They will see his approach as the only one available at his time in history. Why is that?

[saradippity]

I don't know about the recent publicity about the lone remaining good priest. Can you fill me in?

[Loyalist]

I was thinking that these groups might have been used to arrange sexual offences and transport offenders across state borders either to commit same or obstruct justice. Would that fall under RICO?

[saradippity]

Both Max and I have noted a peculiar resistance to even consider what is going on there. If people who live there won't talk about it,if bishops and cardinals like Bernardin are complicit,if the archbishop,who I believe is,Pilarzyk is every bit as bad,how would Rome know about it?

I do believe that Rome has caught on and things are starting to happen but we need to just keep talking about it. You can bet that there are plenty of lurkers from good and bad diocese that read FR,it drives bad people over the brink when they realize that their faithlessness and duplicity are public knowledge. They do not like it one bit and that is one of many good reasons we need to keep it up.

[Diago]

I do believe that Rome has caught on and things are starting to happen but we need to just keep talking about it. You can bet that there are plenty of lurkers from good and bad diocese that read FR,it drives bad people over the brink when they realize that their faithlessness and duplicity are public knowledge. They do not like it one bit and that is one of many good reasons we need to keep it up.

I hope you are right.

[Polycarp IV]

Every Pope is like a sculptor, trying to make his contribution to the perfecting of the Church. JPII is no different. But his part of the sculpture is very intricate, involving some of the most fragile marble in the entire work of art.

He inherited at this time only two tools, because of the duplicity and machinations of those within and without the Flock during the prior decades:

1) A tiny little diamond edged chisel about the size of a popsicle stick (his encyclicals and his travels) and

2)a massive sledge hammer (the traditional forms of discipline available in years gone by.)

He knows that if he swings his sledgehammer, he'll make a lot of dust and noise, and please some folks. But a large piece of the sculpture will fall into ruin (open schism,) a piece that the next Pope might have been able to perfect (Novus Ordo Catholics.)

He also knows that his little chisel is incapable of weeding out the big imperfections in this piece of the marble, and that too must be left to the next Pope.

So instead of making any huge improvements in the form and shape of the overall sculpture, he simply, quietly, and without rest works on those areas where he is able without doing worse damage by trying to do more with his tools than is realistically possible.

And future generations will see the love and tenderness that went into his quiet suffering work, and be in complete awe, because in his day, no one individual could see all the little improvements he had made at the time, improvements that future generations will see and grasp and shed tears of joy to comprehend.

[COBOL2Java]

That is my belief as well. And probably why the Lord has kept JPII on this earth for as long as He has...

[sitetest]

Dear CathFam,

"Every Pope is like a sculptor, trying to make his contribution to the perfecting of the Church. JPII is no different. But his part of the sculpture is very intricate, involving some of the most fragile marble in the entire work of art."

Maybe.

Or maybe he just hasn't been that great an administrator.

The pope is protected from error in his teaching office.

He isn't protected from error in prudential decisions.

It will take a perspective of at least several score years after his death before we'll be able to begin to sort out just what was what.

It's clear that he has upheld the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church, and in many ways, has made deeper and clearer our understanding of the Faith. I believe that for these things, he will be remembered well.

But it will be a very long time before adequate judgement can be made of his administrative stewardship.

It wouldn't surprise me if history judged him as having made do as best as he could with a bad situation. It may be that your analysis may be right.

But it also wouldn't surprise me if history's judgement was more mixed regarding his administration of the Church, or even somewhat negative.

This is an unanswered question.

What does not seem to be a question is that whether he did well or poorly in his administrative decisions and prudential judgements, they were his choices to make, they were decisions and judgements which he had the authority to make, and these were binding on the Church, and never an adequate reason for schism.


sitetest

[saradippity]

If anyone in any of these dioceses tried to say a Latin mass without permission the swiss guard would be sent in.

Think about what you and so many others are saying. Yes, you are all right.

Now take it a step further,someone claims that father is inviting him to his room for a Tridentine Mass. The bishop calls father,father says "that is not true,I have been giving him spiritual direction,he is seeing a psychiatrist because he is a big liar and I prefer you don't disclose that I told you". Do you think Rome would send in the swiss guard?

Now look at the other situation. What if a priest said in his bulletin;"because of the demand for a little more excitement during mass,we are going to start having sex orgies every second Sunday,please come".Now,do you think the swiss guards would be sent in?

So when I said you were right,I meant it but it doesn't reflect on Rome.I hope you can see why equating or comparing the two acts in any way is just not reasonable.

[cpforlife.org]

Great analogy, lets pray it is accurate.

I normally don't engage in these threads but I read many.
I don't see Malachi Martin cited much in discussions related to the Church in the last 40+ years. I have read him "always w a grain or two of salt" He seems to have the best insight in many areas, especially in "Keys of this Blood"

Has he been generally dismissed by the Catholic Cacus on FR?

[saradippity]

What diocese are you in and what do you think happened there? What is your opinion of the bishop/s?

[Polycarp IV]

Has he been generally dismissed by the Catholic Cacus on FR?

Hermann the Cherusker has posted info on Malachi Martin in the past that I found to be credible enough to question his overall motives.

I never trusted him completely because of the shadows around his priestly status, but I have read several of his books.