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Dolan lauds result of bishop's actions against lawmakers
Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel ^ | 1/24/04 | Tom Heinen

Posted on 01/25/2004 5:50:30 AM PST by ninenot

From the Journal Sentinel
Posted: Jan. 24, 2004

Milwaukee Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan, a firm supporter of sanctity-of-life teachings and a friend of La Crosse Bishop Raymond L. Burke, is happy that Burke's disciplining of Catholic politicians who support abortion "front-burnered" that issue.

35264Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan
Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan
Photo/File
I've known (Bishop Burke) since 1972, and I have tremendous admiration and respect for him. Boy, his intellect, his piety, his wisdom have been a blessing to me.
- Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan
Background
1/9/04: Bishop's letter brings criticism and praise
1/9/04: Editorial: A bishop lays down a law
1/8/04: Legislators can't have Eucharist, bishop says

But Dolan, who was installed as archbishop a year and a half ago, is waiting for a task force from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops to propose guidelines for bishops this fall before deciding whether he will emulate Burke.

He shared those thoughts - his first public comments on the Burke controversy - in an interview with Journal Sentinel reporter Tom Heinen last week after celebrating a Mass for Life with several hundred people in Gesu Church on the Marquette University campus to mark the 31st anniversary of the Roe vs. Wade decision that legalized abortion.

Dolan said he had not sent letters to Catholic politicians regarding their position on the abortion issue, nor has he sought them out specifically to bring it up in conversation.

Burke got national attention in December when it became known that he had sent a number of letters to three Catholic Wisconsin politicians, warning that they were endangering their spiritual lives and scandalizing others if they persisted in supporting abortion rights.

He refueled the ensuing national church-state debate on Jan. 8 by publishing a notice telling Catholic politicians - in his diocese - who support abortion and euthanasia not to receive Holy Communion, and ordering his priests not to give it to them if they try.

That prompted the American Life League in Stafford, Va., which Dolan supports, to urge other bishops to follow Burke's unprecedented, broad action in a newspaper ad campaign last Thursday titled "The Way of La Crosse." The group's Crusade for the Defense of Our Catholic Church has targeted a large number of Catholic politicians nationwide for action, including some in the 10-county Archdiocese of Milwaukee.

Burke will be installed Monday as archbishop of St. Louis. Here are excerpts from the interview with Dolan:

Q. You are known for your strong, pro-life stance. What's your position on Bishop Burke's actions?

A. In my book, it's that classical distinction between principle and pastoral practice. And, you know, Bishop Burke and I go way back. I've known him since 1972, and I have tremendous admiration and respect for him. Boy, his intellect, his piety, his wisdom have been a blessing to me.

So, what's come of this, I think, which I'm happy for, is what you might call we front-burnered this issue again. And no matter where you stand on the particular style of what he's done, I think all of us - certainly as bishops, Catholic leaders, people committed to a pro-life cause - are glad that it's front-burnered. And we're saying this is a principle that we can't waffle on. This is a cause that for us is the premier cause of social justice in America today.

(Dolan said Burke's actions had prompted him to examine his own conscience, to see if he had been as "effective" and "cogent" as he should have been in presenting church teaching.)

I know that Bishop Burke himself has said, "I'm not saying every bishop should do it this way." He's said, "This is the way that I prudentially made up my mind as pastor of the Diocese of La Crosse, that I need to do this." And I would respect his pastoral judgment. But I know every bishop's just got to kind of make up his mind prudentially as to the way, the style he's going to do it in his own diocese.

Q. Have you decided how you're handling it?

A. I'm pretty much at peace with the way I've been handling it.

Q. And how is that?

A. I think being very strong in preaching, being very clear in the message, keeping it alive in peoples' minds and hearts. It's rare that I would give a homily that I wouldn't mention the particular pastoral urgency of the pro-life cause.

Q. What's your approach to Catholic politicians, as opposed to more general speaking?

A. I think we've got to be much more vigorous in promoting the pro-life cause with everybody. It bothers me if any politician, Catholic or not, is for abortion. Because in my mind, we're talking about a civil right, we're not talking about a matter of Catholic Church discipline. We can't allow the noble pro-life cause to be reduced to a denominational issue.

Q. You are new in your episcopacy. The U.S. bishops are still formulating guidelines. So, it's in flux. Do you know how you are going to handle individual Catholic politicians?

A. I don't. I can honestly say that. I don't know. I think what the bishops collectively decide, I would take very seriously. But ultimately, it's something I'm going to have to say, how best can I lead, and guide, and form, and challenge my people to live up to all of the demands of the church. And I don't know, to be honest with you. And nor does Bishop Burke. I mean, it took him 10 years and a lot of dialogue and a lot of overtures before he came to that.

(Dolan, a native of St. Louis, who has a doctorate in American church history, added some thoughts about faith and conscience.)

Can you remember back in the early 1960s, in New Orleans, when Archbishop (Joseph) Rummel excommunicated those Catholic politicians and judges who were segregationists? And, of course, he was held up as a hero on every editorial page.

Or in St. Louis. We had the famous Archbishop (Joseph) Ritter, who came after the Second World War, and he announced the integration of the schools. And a lot of people - politicians, prominent business leaders - stood up and said, "This can't be." And he said, "Cease and desist. You're risking the health of your soul, and you're risking the imposition of an ecclesiastical penalty." He's held up as a hero. I mean, every textbook now says what a brave, courageous man.

Q. What about, in a democratic society, the principle of an elected official representing everyone? That's where the rub is.

A. That's where it comes down, doesn't it. That's where the delicacy of the whole issue is, when he says, 'Well, I'm elected but . . . ' That was used, of course, to justify opposition to civil rights. That was used for slavery. That was used for segregation.

You know, we American bishops - again (speaking as) the church historian - I look back to our stance on slavery, and it wasn't a good one. And we look back and say, 'Darn it. We missed an opportunity to be prophetic.'

And I guess that's something we bishops have to ask ourselves now. Are we missing an opportunity to be prophetic?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: abortion; all; burke; communion; dolan; lacrosse; milwaukee; prophetic

1 posted on 01/25/2004 5:50:31 AM PST by ninenot
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To: american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ...
Chapter Two in Milwaukee
2 posted on 01/25/2004 5:51:22 AM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: ninenot; NYer; Salvation; american colleen
Burke got national attention in December when it became known that he had sent a number of letters to three Catholic Wisconsin politicians, warning that they were endangering their spiritual lives and scandalizing others if they persisted in supporting abortion rights.

Indeed. Let's hope the power of the Holy Spirit continues this offensive against the organized evil and pseudo-medical barbarism of the culture of death. It is time for the heroes of the Church to come forward.

3 posted on 01/25/2004 6:05:33 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: ninenot
Dear ninenot,

I smell waffles cooking.

"Q. You are known for your strong, pro-life stance. What's your position on Bishop Burke's actions?


"A. In my book, it's that classical distinction between principle and pastoral practice. And, you know, Bishop Burke and I go way back. I've known him since 1972, and I have tremendous admiration and respect for him. Boy, his intellect, his piety, his wisdom have been a blessing to me.


"So, what's come of this, I think, which I'm happy for, is what you might call we front-burnered this issue again. And no matter where you stand on the particular style of what he's done, I think all of us - certainly as bishops, Catholic leaders, people committed to a pro-life cause - are glad that it's front-burnered. And we're saying this is a principle that we can't waffle on. This is a cause that for us is the premier cause of social justice in America today."

The waffles here are of a classic recipe.

You have the faux-enthusiastic use of bureaucratic jargon, "front-burnered".

There is the oh-so-necessary dash of creating distinctions which permit one to praise the action of another without having to engage in it, oneself, as in "it's that classic distinction between principle and pastoral practice."

Of course, for that savory slightly malty flavor, any batch of waffles needs that critical ingredient, faint praise, "And, you know, Bishop Burke and I go way back. I've known him since 1972, and I have tremendous admiration and respect for him. Boy, his intellect, his piety, his wisdom have been a blessing to me."

I prefer mine with butter, no syrup.

I hope the bishops really come up with something that is more than window-dressing, and I hope that they follow through on it, including Archbishop Dolan.

But the time for talk is done. The time for real discipline is here.


sitetest
4 posted on 01/25/2004 6:18:36 AM PST by sitetest
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To: sitetest
I suspect something is going on backstage. "Pro-life" is a "right-wing" issue, and there are plenty of left-wing bishops who are still in cohoots with left wing politicians. This goes all the way up to the Vatican and back. As with any large group, there are the committed minorities and then there are the trimmers in the middle. So the Church is somewhat like the Republican Party, where the President is always out of town on January 22nd and only some of the braver politicians show up at the rally.
5 posted on 01/25/2004 6:30:21 AM PST by RobbyS (XPqu)
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To: ninenot
This is a cause that for us is the premier cause of social justice in America today.

The correct interpretation of "social justice" and not what those kooky nuns have been moralizing about for 30 odd years.

Not quite sure I liked the statement about waiting on what the USCCB decides... is some wacky no named "ad hoc" subcommittee going to decide how to handle something that is best left to each individual bishop? Part of the problem with the USCCB is that it stifles bishops like Burke (kind of hogties them) although on the other hand that's true for bishops like Mahony and Weakland too.

Bishop O'Malley out of Boston is starting to come alive on this issue as well. Praise God!

6 posted on 01/25/2004 6:45:29 AM PST by american colleen
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To: sitetest
Please see my previous post of Dolan's editorial in which he pointedly observed that MLKing's foundation in Biblical principles should guide politics today.

He was VERY clear about the pro-life implications in that editorial.

I maintain that Dolan is not yet ready to slam the so-and-so's--he has a settlement to get out of the way first.
7 posted on 01/25/2004 6:59:04 AM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: ninenot
he has a settlement to get out of the way first.

I agree... Boston has recently completed the settlement and this week O'Malley sez:

Boston Archbishop Says Pro-Abortion Politicians "Shouldn't Dare Come to Communion"

WASHINGTON, DC, January 23, 2004 (LifeSiteNews.com) - In an interview with LifeSiteNews.com following the Vigil for Life Mass in Washington Wednesday, Boston Archbishop Sean O'Malley expressed his great desire for a renewal of faith among Catholics. Asked about the problem of Catholic politicians promoting abortion, the Archbishop noted that the problem "is not only politicians but those (Catholics) who vote for them." He stressed repeatedly the "great need for adult catechesis among our people."

"These politicians should know that if they're not voting correctly on these life issues that they shouldn't dare come to communion," the Archbishop told LifeSiteNews.com.

Archbishop O'Malley noted that beyond pro-abortion politicians, that reception of Holy Communion by those not in a state of grace is sadly commonplace. "I think it's in the context of a greater problem - Catholics feel that everyone is entitled to go to communion all the time. That has to be addressed. You know if a (pro-abortion) politician asked me I would say you shouldn't go to communion, I wouldn't go to communion. They don't understand why." He explained, "At a funeral sometimes they will announce that communion is for Catholics and people get all offended, so we've lost the notion of the sacredness of communion and the kind of disposition we need to have."

Aside from his stressing the "great need" for adult catechesis, the Boston Archbishop said the solution lies in holiness. Catholics must "be willing to live their faith heroically, the testimony of holiness is the only thing that's going to be able to convince people. Mother Teresa could speak about life issues in a way, because of the ethos of her life, that was much more powerful than the most eloquent preacher or teacher. We have to live our faith very deeply in order to draw people."


8 posted on 01/25/2004 7:01:19 AM PST by american colleen
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To: american colleen
The motions of O'Malley and Dolan are NOT co-incidental--and you might add the new Bishop of Madistan, WI., to your list.

Sometimes it is not necessary to use a sledgehammer to kill the fly.

Remember that Dolan is surrounded by enemies--he reportedly has stated that 'it's worse here than anyone imagined' to a close friend in the Church...
9 posted on 01/25/2004 7:01:36 AM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: maryz
Did you see this (post #8) how does that square with Fr. Coyne's statement the other day?
10 posted on 01/25/2004 7:02:19 AM PST by american colleen
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To: ninenot
Remember that Dolan is surrounded by enemies--he reportedly has stated that 'it's worse here than anyone imagined' to a close friend in the Church...

Rembert Weakland lives on in the hearts of his minions.

Every rosary I say is for the Church and the bishops in particular. They have a herculean task ahead of them, some more than others.

Notice that the media is focusing on the orthodox bishops and not the liberal ones? They know the mavericks.

11 posted on 01/25/2004 7:06:19 AM PST by american colleen
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To: sitetest
"There is the oh-so-necessary dash of creating distinctions which permit one to praise the action of another without having to engage in it, oneself, as in "it's that classic distinction between principle and pastoral practice.""

Well said! - being "pastoral bishops" is simply an excuse for waffle. Other names for it would be "lack of integrity", "spinelessness", "lack of conviction" and being "lukewarm Catholics".

If I had a dollar for every time a Catholic clergyman has said "we don't want to make this a denominational issue" I'd be a millionaire by now. Excusitis - plain and simple!
12 posted on 01/25/2004 7:10:18 AM PST by Tantumergo
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To: ninenot
Dear ninenot,

I hope you're right.

Forgive me if I seem cynical.

It is, after all, only 31 years since Roe v. Wade. How could we expect the bishops to act so precipitously??


sitetest
13 posted on 01/25/2004 7:21:17 AM PST by sitetest
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To: ninenot
The motions of O'Malley and Dolan are NOT co-incidental--and you might add the new Bishop of Madistan, WI., to your list.

You could add Hughes in there as well. Plus he was pretty impressive in his verbal distain for the catechism books in our Catholic high schools. The bishop from Fall River - George Coleman - he's pretty good too.

I think the laity is driving the abortion issue - you can't ignore tens of thousands of people who brave the cold and uncomfortable transportation/sleeping accomodations who are there in Washington as tangible evidence that there are many Catholics who oppose the culture of death (Terri Schiavo is another good example) - it forces the bishops to act. Another tip of the stocking hat to Mother Angelica and the good people at EWTN for providing full (and therefore honest) coverage of this event.

14 posted on 01/25/2004 7:28:29 AM PST by american colleen
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To: american colleen
"These politicians should know that if they're not voting correctly on these life issues that they shouldn't dare come to communion," the Archbishop (O'Malley) told LifeSiteNews.com.

Just more hot air. Why did O'Malley not only invite John Kerry and Ted Kennedy to his installation Mass, but passively watch John Kerry receive Holy Communion at that same Mass?

O'Malley has no more of a spine than Dolan does; all talk, no action.

15 posted on 01/25/2004 8:39:42 AM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
I'm thinking that it's too bad the pope hasn't made you a bishop or a cardinal. I can see it now... you'd storm into a diocese that has been wracked with scandal for years - sexual and moral and spiritually bankrupt - and the first day you'd start issuing decrees until you eventually alienated everyone but about 50 Catholics. Then you guys could all attend Mass at the local Marriott Hotel where the SSPXers gather on Sundays and they'd all congratulate you for being so divisive decisive.

Things didn't get broken overnight and they won't be fixed overnight, however much we wish they would be.

16 posted on 01/25/2004 9:06:53 AM PST by american colleen
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To: american colleen
Things didn't get broken overnight and they won't be fixed overnight, ...

So you admit things are broken?

17 posted on 01/25/2004 9:11:59 AM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: american colleen
how does that square with Fr. Coyne's statement the other day?

As I said, it sounded as if Coyne was speaking for himself; he doesn't want to rock the boat, upset the apple cart, whatever. He's not very honest. (Remember, when they decided to close St. Augustine's school -- a very poor parish -- Coyne said for public consumption that it had been the pastor's decision, conveniently omitting to say that the archdiocese had cut something like $100,000 from St. Augustine's annual grant.)

I didn't see the story in post #8 anywhere, but there was a headline in Friday's Herald about O'Malley praising pro-life politicians (prominently displayed midway down page 18, of course):

Archbishop Sean P. O'Malley yesterday praised lawmakers who oppose legalized abortion in the face of political opposition.

"I think we need to call all Catholics and all Americans to see the importance of this issue," O'Malley said in a telephone interview from Washington, D.C., after taking part in is 31st consecutive "March for Life."

"Obviously politicians are going to act independently," he said. "But we hope that they will follow their conscience and inform their conscience correctly on these issues.

"I think that some politicians start off as being pro-life and sort of lose their nerve, as it were," he said. "On the other hand, I think politicians who are faithful to their ideals and their convictions about the sacredness of life give a very special witness."

Politicians who used to be pro-life, hmm, there's Kennedy, Gephardt, Daschle . . . . There must be more; it seems any Dem who wants a role in the national party has to toe the line here.

18 posted on 01/25/2004 9:17:42 AM PST by maryz
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To: american colleen
you'd storm into a diocese that has been wracked with scandal for years - sexual and moral and spiritually bankrupt - and the first day you'd start issuing decrees until you eventually alienated everyone but about 50 Catholics.

Thank-you, Colleen.

I view that as one of the highest compliments I've ever received on this forum.

19 posted on 01/25/2004 9:20:39 AM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: ninenot; sitetest
I believe His Excellency Bishop Dolan misses an excellent opportunity to dispel the mis-characterization of Archbishop Burke's courageous, necessary admonishment of the pro-infanticide, self-proclaimed Catholic politicians in the La Crosse diocese.

The issue was handled privately (Archbishop Burke, to my knowledge, still has not identified publicly the politicians to whom he sent personal letters many months ago requesting that they meet with him privately/individually to discuss this issue) and only became public by necessity because one of the recipients chose to make it so.

In my humble opinion, Bishop Dolan, who I admire and pray for everyday, has been given a formidable task as the shepherd of the Milwaukee Diocese.

The Creator of all life and His human creatures who have remained close to this issue know that it is disingenuous to agree with those who deem Archbishop Burke's action as problematic because a politician must represent the desires and opinions of his/her constituents. Although Bishop Dolan addresses that issue with terrific examples, he falls into the trap of implicit agreement that Archbishop Burke's action had anything to do with a politician's ability to be a politician.

Archbishop Burke' concern, as I have said in another thread so please excuse me if you have seen this before, is primarily for the spiritual health of the self-professed "catholic" politicians who consistently support both vocally and by legislative act, the legalization of infanticide, in direct opposition to one of, if not the major tenet of the doctrine of the Catholic faith. Archbishop Burke's second concern is the scandal caused among the Catholic faithful, those who respect and those who despise Catholicism, by allowing this horrendous charade to continue.

Very simply stated, Archbishop Burke is not telling any politician how he or she may or may not vote on an issue. He did, however, initially tell those politicians who display vociferous, public, scandalous disregard for this MAJOR tenet of Catholic doctrine, that they should not present themselves for the holiest of the sacraments, the Eucharist. When they would neither accept his invitation to meet with him to discuss his letter, nor discontinue their scandalous reception of the Eucharist, knowing that perhaps the following day they would be casting a vote for or speaking in support of legalized abortion, Archbishop Burke privately contacted the pastors of the parishes of the politicians involved to instruct them to withhold distribution of the Eucharist to those politicians.

Archbishop Burke had a duty to protect his entire flock from the scandalous behavior of a few very public figures. He, contrary to many who would like to make it appear so, did not tell those politicians how they must vote on this MAJOR issue.

His message was clear.....you can be a politician and vote however you wish, but when that vote and the vocal support provided both prior to and after casting that vote is in violation of a major doctrinal tenet of the Catholic faith you publicly claim to espouse, you must choose which is more important to you.....you can't have it both ways.

For those who would like to contend that Archbishop Burke doesn't really know what is in the hearts of the politicians who are involved and point to the sacrament of Reconciliation, I simply point out that absolution from sin requires very little.....remorse, seeking forgiveness through the sacrament, disclosure of those sins and most importantly, a promise to our most compassionate, forgiving Savior that we "firmly resolve, with the help of His grace to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin". A politician who plans to continue to commit the same sin has sought absolution under false pretenses.

You are the last two for whom this is necessary, but for those who would like to turn this into a Catholic/ religious "imposition of power over the state" issue, it is not and never was. As my pastor stated during his homily last evening, the sanctity of life has been one of the most unifying issues among varied religions to-date, but most importantly, it is a human issue.

For those who will, undoubtedly, take this opportunity to contend that this is a warning sign that the Catholic Church is attempting to impose Her doctrine upon the
State, I suggest you reread the examples cited by Bishop Dolan and also the true reason for Archbishop Burke's action.

I doubt that Catholic legislators who speak out from the senate floor against fasting on Good Friday will be treated in the same manner as those who speak in favor of a legal procedure that has resulted in the murder of 40,000,000 innocent babies, but I'm sure equally frivolous examples will be cited by those with an agenda.

Please forgive me for the length of this comment.

God bless,

EODGUY
20 posted on 01/25/2004 9:27:24 AM PST by EODGUY
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To: american colleen
I'm thinking that it's too bad the pope hasn't made you a bishop or a cardinal.

I'll tell you one thing, I won't be wearing a block of cheese on my head.

21 posted on 01/25/2004 10:10:36 AM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
I'll tell you one thing, I won't be wearing a block of cheese on my head.

You prefer satin, and lace, don't you, snookems?

22 posted on 01/25/2004 10:21:52 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
You prefer satin, and lace, don't you, snookems?

I prefer Catholicism over Packerism, Paganism, etc.

23 posted on 01/25/2004 10:27:08 AM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
I prefer Catholicism over Packerism, Paganism, etc.

Jesus never wore a mitre. Dolan was just having a little fun.

Jesus also never wore satin, or lace, or gold, or rings made out of precious stones. In fact, He didn't think much of those who did, in His day.

Incidentals should never be confused with essentials.

24 posted on 01/25/2004 10:34:00 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
Dolan was just having a little fun.

When did Jesus have a little fun? In the Garden of Gethsemane, on the Cross, ...?

The Beatidudes don't seem to mention, "Blessed are the funny".

25 posted on 01/25/2004 10:41:01 AM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: sitetest
While I am as anxious (perhaps more so) than you, Dolan has to fight Marquette University (which will "host" every Aborto-Crat candidate for President this week in a forum,) not to mention certain landed gentry-types, PLUS a sizeable minority of his priests, the ex-Archbishop, the current Auxiliary Bishop, and damn near his entire bureaucracy at the PuzzlePalace/Chancery.

BEYOND that, there's the Irish-Catholic problem up here. There is a LARGE contingent of IrishCatholic "mafioso" who have control of around 75% of the elected and appointed offices in the County and City of Milwaukee, with a particular emphasis on the judicial system. The tentacles extend to Madistan and Washington.

It's one thing to take on all these jackasses when support from the Faithful is strong. It's another thing entirely when you're working like crazy to rebuild Catholicism from the ground up, with a perfidious former Archbishop, and with lawsuits scattered around like landmines.

I have to re-state: IMHO, one juicy public execution could do wonders, and the TomasTorquemada Gentlemen's Club stands ready to assist with the weapons AND the ammo.

But Dolan's following the JPII model: get the Faithful to love you unconditionally, THEN fire the bas#$$^.
26 posted on 01/25/2004 10:48:05 AM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: Land of the Irish
When did Jesus have a little fun?

Marriage at Cana comes to mind. I'll bet He was having a bit of fun, especially with some wine involved.

And Jesus was criticized for "eating and drinking with sinners." He no doubt had a laugh or two at those dinners.

That's your problem, Irish. You think God is humorless. And you want everybody else to be humorless too.

27 posted on 01/25/2004 10:48:27 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: EODGUY
because one of the recipients chose to make it so

An EXCELLENT post, thanks, but this comment is not quite true.

I have good reason to believe that the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel was tipped off about the three letters by a pro-life group.

Following this tip, the JS reporters filed an FOIA request for the letter to the State Sentator (Lassa) and thus got their hands on it.

Obey, the (D) Congressman, only admitted to having his own letter under intense questioning (and the threat of FOIA.)

The third critter has yet to announce, admit, or be fingered.

28 posted on 01/25/2004 10:53:41 AM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: sinkspur

Do you think Jesus Christ did this stuff?

29 posted on 01/25/2004 10:58:25 AM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
It is always good to remember that Christ was FULLY human AND fully Divine.

A couple of glasses of wine, a jig for joy, --not inconceivable.

Can't comment on cheesehead stuff. I don't think Lombardi was coaching in Nazareth at that time.
30 posted on 01/25/2004 11:03:15 AM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: Land of the Irish
Do you think Jesus Christ did this stuff?

He likely did more; He was younger.

31 posted on 01/25/2004 11:04:39 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: ninenot
A couple of glasses of wine, a jig for joy, --not inconceivable.

I don't try to conceive what's not in the Bible. I'm not Protestant.

32 posted on 01/25/2004 11:06:40 AM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
Hope you don't watch the Gibson flick. Lotta "conceptualizing" going on there. Almost X-rated by your standards.
33 posted on 01/25/2004 12:11:25 PM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: american colleen
Bishop Olmsted,the new Bishop of Phoenix is wonderful too. He is holy and brilliant,a great combination because he can bring Christ to us using all channels available.

First by being a model for all Catholics and nonCatholics who believe in the Triune God. And then by presenting truth that will touch the hearts of those who respond to truth with their hearts and the minds of those who initially respond with their minds.

I have great hope that the outcome will be a diocese of Catholics who respond to God with their whole mind,and their whole heart and their whole soul,a light unto the world.

His speech on Respect for Life Sunday was a perfect example. He presented Natural Law exceptionally well.Sadly,there were not that many people there dispite the beautiful weather.I was disappoointed but not surprised that the pastors were unable or unwilling to support the event and get more of their people to welcome our new Bishop as well as to lend support for Respect for Life Sunday.

I heard that Archbishop Sheehan (temmporary diocesan Administratorof the Phoenix diocese)said something similar to what Archbishop Dolan said vis-a-vis the state of the Church in the area being even worse than the dismal situation he was told to expect.

34 posted on 01/25/2004 12:17:51 PM PST by saradippity
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To: saradippity
I have spoken to someone who has somewhat of an inside track in the Phoenix Diocese. He is VERY impressed with Bishop Olmstead. When I asked him if he foresees strong leadership from the new Bishop, he said that there probably won't be a lot of loud public proclamations, but that much will be accomplished quietly, behind the scenes.
35 posted on 01/25/2004 12:42:20 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (www.VirtueMedia.org)
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To: ninenot
I defer to your inside information regarding the release of the letter, Nine. However Obey, for being forced to reveal that he received a letter as well, certainly made it very obvious in his public response that he chose to distort the true intent of Archbishop Burke's act rather than address the true substance of the letter.

God bless,

EODGUY
36 posted on 01/25/2004 3:47:36 PM PST by EODGUY ("The Passion" opens on Ash Wednesday on 3500 movie screens across the nation.)
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To: ninenot
Bump for Dolan!
37 posted on 01/25/2004 4:17:10 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: ninenot
The Deadly Dozen

Canadian Prime Minister Taunts Church: "I Am A Catholic And For Abortion"
Catholic Church asks Tom Daschle to stop calling himself a Catholic
On Catholic Politicians and Faith
Vatican Urges Catholic Politicians to Vote Along Church Lines
Senator Santorum on Being Catholic and a Politician
William E. Simon, Sr. and Jr. Devout Catholics, Philanthropists and Politicians
Deadly Dozen senator taken to task over claims of Catholicism
THE BISHOP AND THE SENATOR [author links to FR thread regarding Daschle in her online column]
Blood On Their Hands: Exposing Pro-abortion Catholic Politicians
MI Gov Granholm Proclaims June "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Month"
Colorado Governor To Media:'WE LOVE OUR CHURCH' [Gov. Bill Owens
U.S. Senator Brownback and Commentator Dick Morris Join Catholic Church
PRIEST REFUSES COMMUNION TO KNEELING PRO-LIFE POLITICIAN [Richard Black, Virginia]
Kerry [Catholic} says he'll filibuster Supreme Court nominees who do not support abortion rights
Pope to MPs: Stop gay marriage
Vatican - Considerations regarding ... homosexual persons
CONFUSIONS ABOUT POLITICAL JUDGMENT AND THE MORAL LAW
Prelate says politicians who back abortion shouldn't go to Communion
Bishop draws fire for targeting Chrétien
Kennedy likens Vatican stance on gay unions to 'bigotry' (oh, go get a job, you little creep)
Ignorance or Malicious Intent? "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to..."
George Weigel on Authentic Catholic Citizenship, and the Duty of Catholic Politicians to Behave as Catholics
Conservative Catholics urge Church to challenge "dissenters"
[Robert F., Jr.] Kennedy to speak at Festival of Faiths (Environmentalism as religion)
Faithful Catholic Politicians
Catholic Bishops Eye Possible Crackdown of Pro-Abortion Pols
PETITION TO EX-COMMUNICATE PRO-ABORTION CATHOLIC ELECTED OFFICIALS
It is Time to Excommunicate the Politicians
Church vows to fight gay marriage: Catholics pressure pols
Should politicians toe their church line?
Church May Penalize Politicans
Catholic politicians facing dogmatic threat
Bishop appeals to Catholic lawmakers [Wisconsin]
New St. Louis Catholic Archbishop Warns Pro-Abortion Catholic Politicians of Excommunication.
Bishop Objected to AIDS Walk
Wisconsin Catholic Lawmakers Seek Victim Status In Feud With Bishop
Bishop Burke discusses the letters he sent to Catholic politicians
Congressman Places Internal Pro-Abortion Docs in Congressional Record
Flynn: Dems ignore Catholics
Granholm gay rights order "a slap in the face"
Calif. Bishop To Gov. Davis: Pick Abortion Or Communion [formal excommunication?]
California Bishop to Gov: Oppose Abortion or No Communion (New Title)
Sacramento Bishop Challenges Governor on Abortion; Tells Davis to Stop Receiving Communion
Granholm's Bible-thumping Sure to Rile GOP
Bishop: No Communion for Abortion Backers
Legislators can't have Eucharist, bishop says: Don't serve supporters of abortion rights, euthanasia
Wisc. Bishop Tells Pro-Abort. Catholic Pols: Change Your Stripes or Stay Away from Holy Communion
Diocese targets Granholm on abortion
NJ Governor McGreevey a devout Catholic, yet diplomatic {Barf Alert}
Communion ban on lawmakers who back abortion starts furor
Bishop's ban ignites church-state debate
(MI) Governor's effort is first step to give gays special benefits, weapon against religion [Granholm]
(Louisiana) LA Archbishop aims call at some Catholic politicians [Hughes]
Hughes exhorts Catholic pols to toe line
The end of Catholic politicians
Maher's Moment: A look back at Bishop Maher's Denial of Communion to a Pro-Abortion Politician [Lucy Killea]
Bishops rekindle anti-Catholic bias
TREND? "Pro-Abort Politicians "Shouldn't Dare Come to Communion", Madison Bishop Backs Burke
Dolan lauds result of bishop's actions against lawmakers

38 posted on 01/25/2004 4:20:40 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Coleus
Catholics Kerry and Kennedy have a 100% Pro-homosexual Record with the Human Rights Campaign! Page 10,11
39 posted on 01/25/2004 4:27:51 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: EODGUY
Democrat=Spin=Lie=Distort

Tell me you are not surprised...
40 posted on 01/25/2004 4:37:07 PM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: ninenot
"Democrat=Spin=Lie=Distort"

I'm speechless, Nine ! Do they really do that ? :))))



God bless,

EODGUY
41 posted on 01/25/2004 4:43:14 PM PST by EODGUY ("The Passion" opens on Ash Wednesday on 3500 movie screens across the nation.)
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To: ninenot
Dear ninenot,

"I have to re-state: IMHO, one juicy public execution could do wonders,..."

I'd settle for one juicy public EXCOMMUNICATION.

"But Dolan's following the JPII model: get the Faithful to love you unconditionally, THEN fire the bas#$$^."

In my own opinion, I think that the faithful who actually fill the pews week in and week out would love their bishops all the faster, all the more, should they fire the bastards, excommunicate those who give grave public scandal, first.


sitetest
42 posted on 01/25/2004 4:55:24 PM PST by sitetest
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To: ninenot
Hope you don't watch the Gibson flick. Lotta "conceptualizing" going on there.

Too late. I've already seen it; and I agree with the Pope.

43 posted on 01/25/2004 5:01:09 PM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: sitetest
Well...

You and I are in agreement.

Think it's co-incidence that you and I are NOT Bishops?
44 posted on 01/25/2004 5:41:54 PM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: ninenot
"Think it's co-incidence that you and I are NOT Bishops?"

Hmmm.... I hadn't really thought about it that way...
45 posted on 01/25/2004 5:53:56 PM PST by sitetest
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To: american colleen
"you'd storm into a diocese that has been wracked with scandal for years - sexual and moral and spiritually bankrupt - and the first day you'd start issuing decrees until you eventually alienated everyone but about 50 Catholics. Then you guys could all attend Mass at the local Marriott Hotel where the SSPXers gather on Sundays and they'd all congratulate you for being so divisive decisive."

I guess waffling on the truth saves more souls than stating it plainly with charity. Why can't there be an in between position where a Bishop has the courage to state the truth as Christ did?
46 posted on 01/26/2004 7:59:41 AM PST by johnb2004
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To: sinkspur
"You prefer satin, and lace, don't you, snookems?"

That would seem to apply to your pals in Amchurch more, right?


47 posted on 01/26/2004 8:13:46 AM PST by johnb2004
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To: Land of the Irish
I agree with the Pope

Are you a fan of break dancing as well?

48 posted on 01/26/2004 8:19:30 AM PST by autopsy
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