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What Happened When The Worlds Most Famous Atheist Had A Near Death Experience.
National Post | March 3 2001 | William Cash

Posted on 02/04/2004 5:20:15 PM PST by catonsville

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To: RightOnline
David's ministry is unique and important enough . . . I'm brazenly posting this from the website about his ministry. It's a bit long but full of interesting info on his ministry.

from

http://fuegodedios.com/faq.htm#power




How can I get the "Fire of God" CD-ROMs? Can I download them?
Send me an email asking for them. I only send out one set per request because I don't have a large budget, but please feel free to make copies for others, as long as there is no charge. My email address is jason@fuegodedios.com Please note that this email does not go to David Hogan. The CD images are not available for download due to the limit on how much traffic I can have on the site.

Why didn't I get a reply to my email?
I try to reply to all emails, but sometimes people have an email address that I am not able to respond to, meaning I get some kind of error when I send to it. I don't know why this happens, but when it does I have no way to respond and is very frustrating. Requests for the "Fire of God" CDs may not always get a reply, but I usually get the CDs out within a few weeks. If I get a request without an address and I am unable to respond, it may appear like I am being rude, but I am simply unable to respond. Include your mailing address and ZIP code (postal code) when requesting the CDs and I will send them out. The CD images are not available for download because they would take many hours to download, even with DSL or a cable modem, and there is a restriction on how much can be downloaded from the site.

Where can I get books or tapes of David preaching?
David does not make books or tapes himself. Various tapes are available from the churches where he has preached.
Check out this other link on my site for more information: Tapes, etc.


Are the recordings copyrighted?
David and his office staff have expressed multiple times that no one has the right to copyright his preaching. Any recording of his preaching can be copied. Some people have copyrighted tapes or videos because they can profit off of David's popularity by selling the recordings. David has expressed very strong negative feelings about these people. Here is what I have found regarding why these copyrights are not legal or moral:

It is not their own intellectual property; it is a recording of David Hogan
David didn't ask them to make the recordings or sign an agreement that this would be a "work for hire"
It is not a joint work; the church or individual only did the recordings, they did not participate in the content
David has not transferred in writing his natural ownership of the material
David and his office have expressed to me repeatedly that "No one has the right to copyright my preaching."
(For more information on copyrights, see http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html)

Who will vouch for David?
HOME CHURCH
Christian Bible Fellowship
Pastor Scott Hornsby
Clinton. LA
REFERENCES:
Pastor Roy Stockstill
Bethany World Prayer Center
Baker. LA

Pastor Larry Stockstill
Bethany World Prayer Center
13855 Plank Road
Baker, Louisiana 70714
(225) 774-1700 phone
http://www.bethany.com

Pastor Truett Murphy
Living Word Church
Birmingham. AL
http://www.lwchurch.com/

Pastor Paul Troquille
Magnolia Christian Center
Magnolla. AR

Pastor Rick Shelton
Life Christian Center
13001 Gravois Rd.
St. Louis, MO 63127


Pastor Harry Lilly
Pastor Billy Kirksey
Bethany Full Gospel Church
West Monroe. LA

Pastor Laverle Syverson
Maranatha Church
Princeton. MN



Why is Fuego de Dios a "dot com"? Doesn't that mean it is a commercial site?
No, it is not a commercial site.
Actually, typing ".org" or ".net" will work also for this site, but most people think in terms of ".com", so I figured it would be easier to remember that way.

How do you know this is all true? How do you know he isn't lying? Why isn't any of this on TV if it is real? Who can verify these things?
Background
When I first heard about David, I had a similar reaction. I thought he was just another guy claiming things that were wild in order to get attention and money. Basically, I scoffed at the idea that anyone could raise the dead. A friend showed me a video of David speaking to a group of Christian students and not very long into the video, I had the definite sense that he was being honest. As I kept watching, that sense grew. Then my wife and I had the opportunity to see him in person. After meeting him, I told him of my first reaction and how I changed my attitude pretty quickly after hearing him preach. I have met him many times since and his message is consistent. I have also met many of his men that preach the gospel to the various tribes of indians in the Mexican jungles. These guys are solid, honest men and they lead hard lives. They don't have a lot of money and they don't live "high on the hog". They take their work and calling very seriously. While I have only visited Mexico and have not witnessed the many miracles they speak of, I have observed them and listened to them enough to form an educated opinion of their characters.

I have been receiving emails lately accusing me of blindly following a huckster. The tone has been shrill and derisive, indicating that the person who sent the mail is not asking me a question, but has already made up his/her mind that I am deceived and that David is a liar.
I have already admitted that I have not seen the miracles they talk about, but I have been present when a girl was raised out of a coma and when my wife's leg was healed of an injury that wouldn't let her foot extend fully. You can claim that it was coincidence, but I don't think so given the context of the meeting was to call on Jesus for healing. At least one website claiming to be a "discernment ministry" is writing slanderous things about David (and many others) and accusing him of everything from being a "pathological liar" to immorality. Not once is there any example of a lie or an immoral situation. Another email said "If you only knew the truth...he never should have gotten away with the things he has done." But they provide no examples, instead appealing to how well they claim to know him. He is a human with flaws, like the rest of us, and I'm not defending any of that, just as I don't defend my own weakness or sin. We are all in continual need of the blood of Jesus.

Integrity vs. Philosophy
I have met David and his men repeatedly. They all testify to the power of God being shown in their missionary endeavors. They eek out a living among some of the poorest people on the planet and spend the money they get from the U.S. on good strong equipment needed to get far into the jungle to reach these remote tribes with the gospel. They are not huckstering anyone, nor are they looking to get rich or have easy lives. They work hard every day and are treated to beatings, stonings, whippings, shootings, and martyrdom. It is a tough job and they are tough people, and they daily lay down their lives for the lost indians.

The "discernment ministries" that are attacking David usually have an anti-supernatural or cessationist theology, meaning that God stopped doing miracles after the apostles died and won't again until Christ returns. They teach that because we have the Bible we don't need any miracles, and that any desire for the power of God is "seeking for a sign". I feel that their theology is useless and without merit. If I have a need for healing I don't want a bunch of theology thrown at me, I want to be made well. Jesus told his followers to heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, and cast out demons. Nowhere did he say "Stop healing and stop raising the dead." Nor did he say "After my apostles die, I will quit doing anything that might indicate that I am God." He keeps the whole physical universe together every moment, but we act like it stays together on its own power. He can alter it at will, but we show more faith in his creation than in Him.
People will write to me about this and want to argue ad infinitum about Greek verbs and such. I won't argue, so they resort to insulting me and saying I will end up in hell along with David and his "followers".

I have tested David's preaching and teaching based on my knowledge of the scriptures and by whatever discernment God has given me. His teachings are found in the Bible and he gives all honor to Jesus. He and his men seem totally above-board and honest about what they are doing. They take to heart the theology of "Put up or shut up!" I think that is a legitimate approach to following God. People can argue about the nuances of a Greek word and never get around to loving their neighbor or helping the people around them to escape hell. Too many Christians are self-absorbed and given to arguing philosophy and interpretation. The unsaved world honestly doesn't care about your theology, or your church, or who your pastor is, or what version of the Bible you read, or what tense a Greek verb is in. They want a God who is more than an imaginary friend. They want a God who is real and who loves them and took their hell for them. If you can't give them such a God, you should reconsider how you live, and whether or not you really know Him. Yes, be accurate in your translations, but be active in sharing the life of your God.

TV, Hospitals, Graveyards
"Why isn't this on TV?", "Why doesn't he go down to the morgue or hospital to do these miracles?" When Jesus walked the earth, he didn't seek out the sick, people brought them to Him. When He raised Lazarus, He left the rest of the people in their graves. When He raised the dead boy in the funeral procession, He didn't then rush down to the town graveyard. When He raised Talitha, He didn't announce it to everyone. On the contrary, He told the parents not to tell anyone. So why is it that people want David to not act like Jesus? TV is mostly evil anyway and David isn't interested in how Oprah, Jerry Springer, and Howard Stern can profit off him while mocking the gospel.

Power
I have encountered the power and presence of God in some of the services where David has preached. I have also encountered this power when I worship God at church or with a small group of believers. I have tested the power that I feel with the test that the Apostle John gave us and have always felt that it was from God (I didn't receive a direct response). I have been in places where the power of the devil was present and it was distinctly harmful and distinctly unhappy with me being there. I have also felt the power of the tempter. So I am not a stranger to spiritual power. I know people who sense it much stronger than I do and have seen even unbelievers knocked out by the power of God. I have witnessed people who have never been in a Pentecostal church drop like rag dolls when touched by a preacher. The same preacher can touch me and nothing at all happens. I don't know why.
The power is real. Some people think that it is the devil because their theology doesn't let them believe otherwise. In the services where David preaches, the context is always the blood of Jesus and scripture. There is no whipped up emotion (it is hard to whip up my emotion anyway). I have been sitting there worshipping and suddenly power comes upon me. I don't know what for, or what is happening in the spiritual realm, but the context of my worship and the direction of the service tells me that the power is from God. Since the power started touching me, I have experienced much more stability in my walk and power over temptations like I have never known before. I take this to mean that God is changing me in ways I can't even understand. I can't make the power come, nor is it a product of ecstatic emotion. It is real, tangible, and wonderful.

My "testing" of David is based upon my interactions with him and from listening to well over a hundred hours of his preaching and teaching. Nothing indicates to me that he is a money-grubbing charlatan. On the contrary, he is an honest, serious man who loves Jesus and gives up his life to others by preaching nearly every day and working hard in the mountains to reach a lost and rejected people group. No, I have not seen the dead raised. I didn't see Jesus rise either. I believe the testimony of the apostles and prophets because I have met the same God that they preached about. He is the same God that David Hogan worships. That is why I trust David and his men.

If you still have questions about what happens in Mexico, please write to David's office in Texas. Try to meet him or his men and observe them in action. Don't rely on third-hand information.

-Jason Woodrow

Here is an excerpt of David talking about knowledge versus power and how Christians shouldn't be using their knowledge of scripture against other Christians in some puffed up manner. This recording is in RealAudio format. Click here to listen

"Did God forget how to do the impossible? You believe that a doctor can make someone well, but when God does it you want videos before you'll believe it. Haven't you read the book?" - Heidi Baker
That is the basic problem. People claim they believe in God, but when push comes to shove, they really don't. God is fine as long as He is a theory or just a character in a book, but when He actually shows up, those who don't believe paint Him like He is the devil or some kind of trick. They refuse to believe that God is actually real and is still in control of the universe. I want my faith to be at the level of trust I have when I sit in a chair. Normally, I have no doubt that the chair will hold me and I just plop down into it. But with God, there is still hesitation. That hesitation is unbelief, and it has to go so God's power can flow.
-Jason


What about the verse that says "false Christs and false apostles will come with signs and wonders to deceive even the elect" (Matt.24:24)?
Yes, they will. However, not all who do miracles are from the devil. That is to say that the devil has power and God does not, which is foolishness. Peter and Paul both raised the dead, did that mean that they were from the devil? Of course not. Given the many things that Jesus said would mark those who follow him (Mark 16:15-18, Matt. 21:18-22, Matt. 10:8), it is entirely proper to expect God's power to be revealed through the body of Christ. We are his body and we have his Spirit, and we are to do the things that he did and greater (John 14:12-15). It requires, though, that we live a life truly submitted to God and that we love our brethren, neighbors, and enemies. It is not the "name it and claim it" baloney that lazy rich Americans want as an instant gratification of their lust for power and wealth. All of the apostles but John died as martyrs, and they tried to kill him, too. We should expect nothing less as we preach the good news of reconciliation to God through the blood of Jesus to a world that hates the idea that they are responsible for their sins against the holy God. Conversely, we should not excuse our lack of belief and invent a doctrine that God has ceased being God. It is easier to not believe God and to not submit ourselves entirely to Him. But Christian laziness and self-centeredness has cost untold numbers of souls. Those who come with false wonders will also come with false doctrine that will lead away from the cross of Christ. The cross demands our flesh be sacrificed for the sake of God. The cross will not pamper and indulge us. Our home is not in this world; we are strangers here and our job is to call the others around us to switch allegiance to our King. This can rightfully be done with a demonstration of His power, since we are His ambassadors. If He has no real power, then why fear Him? If He is a fairy-tale, dump Him!
Our faith stands apart from all other religions because our God is real and their gods are not (or are at best demons). We can either prove it or blend in with the rest. Jesus is alive! No more excuses to defend a powerless Christianity. If the power of God is not evident in my life, that is not God's fault, it is my fault for not submitting to the cross of Jesus. We cannot serve both God and our flesh. The two are at war with each other (Romans 7:22-23, Romans 8:5-). Jesus was annointed by God because he loved righteousness and hated wickedness (Hebrews 1). Too much of the church loves righteousness and loves wickedness. It is this very doublemindedness that will lead Him to say to many on the Day of Judgment, "I never knew you. Depart from me!" This doublemindedness will also be the cause of many following after false Christs and false apostles, because they will seem religious but tickle the pride, greed, lust, etc., that church people love to cling to.


I thought only Jesus could raise the dead.
Please see the section called "Raise the dead".

Why don't we see this kind of power in our church?
This is just my opinion, but there are three things that are at the root of it. One is unbelief, which I addressed above. Another is that the Lord Jesus emphasized the need to take the gospel to the poor and needy. It is a theme repeated throughout the scriptures. So many churches I see are putting their money into large facilities that costs millions to build and millions more to maintain. They may have a branch of "ministry" that does outreach to the homeless, but by far they seem more concerned with the pretty, the wealthy, and the healthy. Jesus linked ministry to the poor in with the rest of his miracles (Matthew 11:5, Luke 7:22). Jesus warned that those who are wealthy will find it almost impossible to enter Heaven, but most of the church thinks it can handle the wealth just fine and enter through the eye of the needle. Most of the church seems to want more stuff, including power from God. Getting our flesh to tremble in His presence is just one more thrill. The few I have encountered who truly get God's power to be with them are the ones who are giving up their lives for the poor and the destitute. God doesn't give His power to us so we can cling to it or make a name for ourselves. He is jealous for His glory and doesn't share it. So I don't understand the multi-million dollar "ministries" that seem to glorify a particular minister. People on TV sitting on velvet covered gold thrones asking for more money is the polar opposite from what I witnessed in Mexico and what I have seen taped from Mozambique.
We need to take the simple gospel more seriously and heed the warnings that Jesus spoke to us, not thinking that they always refer to someone else. I don't want to be one of those "many" that will think they are in the clear, only to find out on the day of judgment that I lived a vain self-centered life and am not known by Jesus. The gospel is giving, not receiving. It is suffering daily for the sake of others. It is not looking for a fleshly heaven, but longs for a Heaven where Jesus rules as absolute dictator King, with us in loyal submission to Him. That is where we get a better understanding of the extent of His love for us - that the King died for us, that He threw away His life for people who had no hope.

Everywhere we look in our society there are distractions, temptations, philosophies, and entertainment designed to keep us from spending hours on our face before the King ministering to Him. Jesus said that the way to show love to God is to obey Him. If we lavish praise on Him and have thriving ministries, but love our idols also - He will reject us in the end (Rev. 2:4-5). If you had a wife that you knew was cheating on you, would you enjoy her snuggles and love songs? Wouldn't they be even worse than her being silent? On the other hand if you know that she is faithful to you, they would only magnify the enjoyment of her love. The same holds true for the church. He does all He can do get us to leave the idols behind. He cares for us, warns us, entreats us, weeps over us, convicts us, forgives us over and over again. In the end, He wants us to be faithful and obedient to Him, to "love the Lord your God with all your heart". If we live obedient lives before Him, then we really love Him. Quit excusing sin and learn how to minister to God, rather than always looking for Him to minister to you. Obey Him and share the good news of Jesus with the poor. He will be with you in that, and will bring power to heal and deliver.

Heidi Baker says that the third thing that blocks the annointing of God is selfish ambition. We always want to be "somebody", to have a title like "Prophet" or "Apostle". God does not share his glory. And to the extent that we want a bit of glory, a bit of recognition, to that same extent we will lose the annointing. We want the blind to see and the lame to walk, but there is that nugget of self inside that wants people to look at us with awe or respect because of it. That nugget has to die. We have to let God kill us so He can give us His own life, and through us give others His life.
"Do we see what He sees? Do we feel what He feels? Can we hear the cry of His heart for the lost? This is poverty of spirit. God is calling us to be poor in spirit. When we are poor in spirit, we no longer compete. We no longer jostle for titles. When we have no drive to be noticed and known, we are not offended by lack of attention. We find no satisfaction in ministry status. Then we can walk in unity, preferring others above ourselves. Our only desire is to live the life of a humble servant lover of our Lord Jesus." (excerpt from the Baker's book There Will Always Be Enough)

And, of course, the sovereignty of God is still the deciding factor in whether or not someone is healed. Many people get prayed for that never get healed or raised from the dead. However, until God tells us that He isn't going to heal someone, we have to take the position that He will and pray for the sick like He told us to.


Who has been healed by the power of Jesus?
I was present when my wife's leg was healed and when a young girl was raised out of a coma. Here is a letter from a Chief Cardiologist about Jesus healing his son of leukemia (in Adobe Acrobat format): Letter (1.3MB)

Doesn't faith require that there not be signs?
Not at all. Faith is synonymous with trust or belief in the almighty God, not with a God who can't do anything. For some people, seeing these miracles produces faith since they can see the hand of God at work. For others it bounces off their hard hearts and fails to take root. In these scriptures, Jesus appeals to the miracles he has done as proof that he is telling the truth: Matt. 11:20-23, John 10:25-26, John 14:11, John 15:24. The very people that Jesus says are hating him and the Father are the ones that thought they were serving God the best. But they lacked the faith, the belief and trust in the living God and traded it for religious traditions and politics. So the signs can produce more faith in those who already believe, spur faith in those who are on the fence, and have no effect at all on those who are hard. Faith is not dependent on miracles, but trusts that God can help us in ways that no one else can.
The Israelites saw many miracles in the exodus from Egypt; plagues, the passover, the sea opening up and allowing them through while drowning their enemies, the pillar of fire and the pillar of smoke, manna, etc. Yet the writer of Hebrews says that they fell in the desert due to their lack of belief and hardness of heart (Heb. 3:7-19). But for some of them and for us these signs produce faith in our hearts. So miracles are tools in the hand of God both for the moment and for something to look back at to remember His provision, thus producing trust for the future.

But Jesus said that only a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign.
Yes, he did. But who did he say this to? Did he say it to the multitudes that came to be healed? Did he heal begrudingly? No, he said it to the Pharisees that were there to test him, to make him jump through some fancy hoop they constructed. Every day they saw him heal people, but they were not impressed. They wanted something really flashy, like a sign in the heavens. Jesus was angry at them for missing the obvious and wanting God to perform for them. As he told the church in the Revelation, they had left their first love (Rev 2:4) and so were adulterous and wicked, self-centered testers of God.
51 posted on 02/04/2004 10:00:47 PM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Grut



Descriptions of NDEs have been so widely published for so long that no 'testimony' of this sort can be regarded, on the basis of choosing the simplest explanation, as anything except a false memory induced by urban myth.

How is the implantation of a false memory a simpler solution than that the accounts of the experience are genuine?


52 posted on 02/04/2004 10:13:11 PM PST by Sabertooth (Malcontent for Bush - 2004!)
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To: GladesGuru
Funny, I read a Readers Digest article that stated that NDE's are so common and impossible to explain, they are now an accepted medical event.

My article was recent, yours must have been old:)

53 posted on 02/04/2004 10:19:27 PM PST by bigjoesaddle (Shrug)
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To: Grut
Descriptions of NDEs have been so widely published for so long that no 'testimony' of this sort can be regarded, on the basis of choosing the simplest explanation, as anything except a false memory induced by urban myth.

Your statement makes no sense. Have you read any books about the subject? People from every walk of life, readers and non-readers, religious people and atheists, Christians and Hindus, people from various countries and cultures, all report such experiences.

Myth? The real myth is that death of the body means cessation of existence.

54 posted on 02/04/2004 10:27:04 PM PST by little jeremiah
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To: Grut
Descriptions of NDEs have been so widely published for so long that no 'testimony' of this sort can be regarded, on the basis of choosing the simplest explanation, as anything except a false memory induced by urban myth.

Or maybe it's due to a Jungian "collective subconscious." A more academic explanation than "urban myth." But no less lazy, irrational, and unscientific. What induced the "urban myth"? How far back in time can NDE's be attested? And how widely can they be attested, in both literate and non-literate societies?

55 posted on 02/04/2004 11:45:00 PM PST by Map Kernow ("I hold that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing" ---Thomas Jefferson)
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To: freemama; mc5cents; texgal; eccl1212; Quix
Thank you all for correcting the error that I made in post #10 - and acknowledged in post #14. With this level of reinforcement I am certain I will never make the same mistake again.
56 posted on 02/05/2004 2:08:23 AM PST by Aeronaut (In my humble opinion, the new expression for backing down from a fight should be called 'frenching')
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To: catonsville
I thought I was the World's most famous atheist.
57 posted on 02/05/2004 2:23:26 AM PST by 12B
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To: 12B
I don't believe in athiests.
58 posted on 02/05/2004 2:31:44 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: Sabertooth
How is the implantation of a false memory a simpler solution than that the accounts of the experience are genuine?

Remember all those 'recovered memory' cases of a few years ago that turned out not to be so? Like that.

I do owe people an explanation, though; I meant that no present-day NDEs can be easily believed because of all the publicity NDEs have received in the last thirty years, but I do find older reports to be strikingly consistent.

59 posted on 02/05/2004 4:33:44 AM PST by Grut
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To: Aeronaut
No harm was meant.
60 posted on 02/05/2004 5:40:43 AM PST by texgal (end no-fault divorce laws and return DUE PROCESS to our citizens))
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Comment #61 Removed by Moderator

To: GladesGuru
GladesGuru wrote:
"There may be no need to google search, let alone go to the stacks of the med school library. Merely read the article in Readers Digest about NDE's. The article describes how a reduction of blood flow to the left parietal area of the brain induces "the religious experience".

A more recent Readers Digest article had the NDE of a woman who met God during the happening. She was clinically dead WITH NO BRAINWAVES. In other words nothing was going on in her mind. No brain activity. Yet later she was able to describe exactly what was happening around her.

One hypothesis for her experience is that consciousness is everywhere in the self, not just a function of the brain.
Or did she really have a NDE away from her body?
62 posted on 02/05/2004 6:44:06 AM PST by catonsville
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To: JackRyanCIA
I've never hesitated to talk about my experience. It was very intense -- nothing at all like being drunk -- and very memorable. I still remember it after fourty years. But it was a drug experience, under ether, during surgery. I see nothing mystical about it.
63 posted on 02/05/2004 7:01:09 AM PST by js1138
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To: Aeronaut
No doubt!

FR is a great place for intellectual dog piles!

Sigh.

Thanks for your great attitude.
64 posted on 02/05/2004 7:03:27 AM PST by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: texgal
"Nobody has returned from the dead since the resurrection of Christ."

Umm... Eutychus

and, yes he did die again unlike our Savior
65 posted on 02/05/2004 7:07:44 AM PST by TNMountainMan (Errabundi Saepe, Semper Certi.)
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Comment #66 Removed by Moderator

To: GladesGuru
Thank you.

left parietal area brain "religious experience"

zeroes in on about 300 relevant googled articles

67 posted on 02/05/2004 7:18:15 AM PST by WilliamofCarmichael
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To: JackRyanCIA
I see no difference between what I experienced and what is being described by others in this thread.
68 posted on 02/05/2004 7:24:13 AM PST by js1138
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To: catonsville
Sorry that this might be slightly off-topic, but if anyone can help me here, it's FReepers!

Who knows anything about Evelyn Waugh? I have read his book entitled "When The Going Was Good" which is a collection of writings from a few of his books at the time, mostly about travel in Africa and South America. I found him to be a fantastic author and every so often, in circumstances such as this, I find weird references to him. What did he do besides write books and work as a newspaper correspondant?

Anyone who has any info on the man please let me know. I'm hitting Google right now...
69 posted on 02/05/2004 7:26:14 AM PST by bc2 (http://thinkforyourself.us)
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To: Grut
Remember all those 'recovered memory' cases of a few years ago that turned out not to be so? Like that.

I'm not sure it's like that.

The difference is, recovered memories are implanted years after the fact. You're suggesting here that the memories are implanted almost immediately.

If memories can be either implanted or genuine, what makes one a simpler explanation than the other?

I do owe people an explanation, though; I meant that no present-day NDEs can be easily believed because of all the publicity NDEs have received in the last thirty years, but I do find older reports to be strikingly consistent.

Then applying simpler explanation theory, why is it simpler to believe that early, "strikingly consistent "NDE accounts have one explanation, and subsequent NDE accounts that are consistent with the earlier ones, have a different explanation?

On the surface, isn't it simpler, since early and subsequent NDE accounts have consistency with each other, to believe that their explanations, whatever they are, are also consistent?


70 posted on 02/05/2004 8:07:14 AM PST by Sabertooth (The Republicans have a coalition, if they can keep it.)
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Comment #71 Removed by Moderator

To: 3catsanadog
Your story reminded me of something. My mothers uncle passed away a couple of years ago. I don't remember what was wrong with him, maybe a stroke, because he was pretty non-responsive and hardly spoke. His wife and kids were in his bedroom, because they knew it was just a matter of time before he passed on. Out of the blue he sits bolt upright, smiles, and puts his arms out towards the ceiling like you would if you were going to hug someone. Then he stops smiling and lays back down. His daughter ran over to him and asked if he was okay. He looked at her and clear as day and- very annoyed- said, "No I'm not okay! Ernie was here and he said I couldn't go because it's not time yet!" Ernie was his brother who had died several years before. He died the next day.
72 posted on 02/05/2004 9:48:28 AM PST by retrokitten (She's a squirrel-squashin', deer-smackin' drivin' machine! Canyonero!)
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To: catonsville
"Ayer's article, with his vivid memory of being pulled toward a red light, 'exceedingly bright, and also very painful,'"

Hmmmmm.... doesn't sound like Heaven.

;)

73 posted on 02/05/2004 9:56:13 AM PST by pax_et_bonum (Always finish what you st)
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To: RightOnline
No, never heard of missionary in mountains of Mexico named David Hogan. And no, I don't believe he returned from the dead. Dead is dead; not a "near-death" experience. Show me someone who had been stone cold dead, rigor mortis and all, return fom the dead and I'll be convinced.
74 posted on 02/05/2004 10:21:10 AM PST by luvbach1 (In the know on the border)
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To: Clausewitz
Accounts of ressurection from the dead are not proof. Also, I don't include premature burials, often cited as "ressurections." Not familiar with the work you cited: Father Albert J. Hebert, S.M., "Raised From the Dead, True Stories of 400 Resurrection Miracles" (335pp.; TAN Books & Pub., 1986; Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur).I'll try to find it.

Sign me skeptical.

75 posted on 02/05/2004 10:25:46 AM PST by luvbach1 (In the know on the border)
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To: pax_et_bonum
pax_et_bonum wrote:

"Ayer's article, with his vivid memory of being pulled toward a red light, 'exceedingly bright, and also very painful,'"

Hmmmmm.... doesn't sound like Heaven


I remember when The National Review printed the original article by Ayers in 1988. Ayer had enough intellectual honesty that he wrote he was perplexed and could not fully understand what happened to him. Only later when the pressure began to build did he refute his doubt, claiming his NDE was some sort of psychological illusion.

Ayer wrote that during his NDE his fate was discussed by three male spirits against a flickering red background and wondered what it all meant. A letter in the next issue of the magazine gave what may have been an answer to Ayer's dilemma.
Those flickering red lights-why the fires of Hell,of course.
76 posted on 02/05/2004 11:20:20 AM PST by catonsville
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To: 3catsanadog
When my aunt was dying she spoke of seeing angels, and she wasn't on narcotics at the time.
77 posted on 02/05/2004 11:30:04 AM PST by oyez
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To: luvbach1
Fair enough.........but at least acknowledge that you are not so small-minded as to think "if I can't see it, it doesn't exist". That would be more than a bit too 12th century, don't you think?
78 posted on 02/05/2004 3:06:52 PM PST by RightOnline
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To: Aeronaut
Actually my intent was not "correction" of any error by you, but an attempt at supplementation of your intent with regards to that particular posters assertion about there being "no resurrections since Christ".

So, I tried to provide your statement with some extra back up via two other "New Testament" resurrections, post ascension.

Dorcas and the third story guy.
Consider yourself NOT corrected, but reinforced in your intention.
79 posted on 02/05/2004 5:38:08 PM PST by eccl1212 ( "anybody else wanna negotiate?")
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To: RightOnline
...at least acknowledge that you are not so small-minded as to think "if I can't see it, it doesn't [may not]exist.

I acknowledge the foregoing as amended.

80 posted on 02/05/2004 6:55:26 PM PST by luvbach1 (In the know on the border)
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To: js1138
I see no difference between what I experienced and what is being described by others in this thread.

What about the ones who aren't on drugs when it happens?

81 posted on 02/05/2004 7:22:56 PM PST by dubyagee
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To: retrokitten
Two days before my mom passed, I awoke to her saying "Goodbye...goodbye." I asked her who she was talking to. She said the ship was sailing and she couldn't get on yet.
82 posted on 02/05/2004 7:25:48 PM PST by dubyagee
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To: dubyagee
What about the ones who aren't on drugs when it happens?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Near death does not really mean much unless it involves oxygen starvation in the brain. Simply having one's heart stop is irrelevant if there is a mechanical method for pumping blood to the brain.

The effects of oxygen starvation are similar to the effects of some drugs. So I am having trouble understanding how you could have a near death experience without having something -- at least temporarily -- wrong with the brain.

Visions in the absense of any brain abnormality would be an entirely different matter. I don't have any pat answer for that, althought I can see why people would be really reluctant to talk about them. the first impression would always be that the person is nuts. But I'm not going to judge anyone without knowing them.

83 posted on 02/05/2004 8:55:27 PM PST by js1138
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To: Oatka
I suspect that these experiences trigger a "religious" part of the brain

Really!?!
Please explain why such a part of the human brain would exist?

84 posted on 02/05/2004 9:32:49 PM PST by Ignatz (Helping people be more like me since 1960....)
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To: js1138
Maybe you did die.
Ether can kill you, ya know.
85 posted on 02/05/2004 9:38:11 PM PST by Ignatz (Helping people be more like me since 1960....)
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To: 3catsanadog
So I have been around many who were dying. I remember one lady on one of her last nights on earth reaching for the ceiling and saying "Pull me over, please pull me over."

My paternal grandfather died in the early 70s. Right before he died he suddenly sat up in bed and reached out for something. I think my grandmother asked him what he was seeing but he was already gone.

86 posted on 02/05/2004 11:27:11 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: catonsville
Ayer's article, with his vivid memory of being pulled toward a red light, "exceedingly bright, and also very painful,"

Is it just me or does this strike anyone else as not being a good thing?

87 posted on 02/05/2004 11:28:26 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: catonsville
**What I Saw When I Was Dead, about his bizarre visit to the other side and how, as a humanist philosopher, it had affected his view of death.**

Will finish reading later.
88 posted on 02/06/2004 5:48:04 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: catonsville
As he got older, Freddie realized more and more that philosophy was just chasing its own tail.

I loved this line. Thanks for the post.

89 posted on 02/06/2004 7:02:37 AM PST by MarMema
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To: texgal
Nobody has returned from the dead since the resurrection of Christ.

Are you sure?

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Note that the author, in writing after the fact, got a little ahead of himself in the telling and then added the clarification that this didn't happen until after Jesus' resurrection.
90 posted on 02/06/2004 11:33:34 AM PST by Some hope remaining.
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To: Some hope remaining.
You are right. I completely forgot about these verses. Mea Culpa!

Thanks for correcting me.

91 posted on 02/06/2004 6:28:11 PM PST by texgal (end no-fault divorce laws and return DUE PROCESS to our citizens))
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To: Ignatz
That was my sloppy term for that part of the brain, when stimulated, gives the person the feeling of a religious experience. Years back I read where neurosurgeons were able to recreate these experiences in just such a manner.

Put "NDE brain" in Google and check some of them out.

One of interest is at: http://skepdic.com/nde.html but there are probably more from scientific sites.
92 posted on 02/06/2004 7:41:36 PM PST by Oatka
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To: catonsville
"She was clinically dead WITH NO BRAINWAVES. In other words nothing was going on in her mind. No brain activity."

Your post made me think of the Terri Schiavo case where Mrs. Schiavo has a severely atrophied cerebral cortex, yet seems to respond to those around her.

As to where consciousness "resides", to the best of my knowledge that question has no answer at this time.

All in all, this brings to my mind the line in the Old Testament to the effect that "I put before you today both life and death - therefore choose life."

I fear we haven't begun to examine how we treat the dying in light of what we are beginning to know about human experiences at the threshold of death.

Are these reports just artifacts of the shutting down of the bodies chemistry or are they something else?
93 posted on 02/06/2004 7:51:44 PM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon liberty, it is essential to examine principles - -)
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To: texgal
No problem. It's pretty interesting, actually, to realize those verses are there and wonder why such a small mention is all there is. Especially considering they went into the city and appeared to many.
94 posted on 02/06/2004 8:12:31 PM PST by Some hope remaining.
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To: Oatka
I think you may have misunderstood my question: Why is the brain capable of religious experience?
Years ago, I read an interview (Omni magazine) with some scientist or "brain doctor" of some type, who said that spirituality must exist because the mind was capable of spiritual experience.
According to him, it "wouldn't be adaptive" if there were no spirituality. It made sense to me, and certainly gave me pause to consider!
95 posted on 02/08/2004 8:18:28 PM PST by Ignatz (Helping people be more like me since 1960....)
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To: Ignatz
BUMP
96 posted on 02/10/2004 8:48:27 AM PST by Publius6961 (40% of Californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks.)
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To: catonsville
So you see, I tend to believe tales of people having near death experiences, of going to hell and being called out by female voices only to see their flesh being consumed.... I too had an indicative experience 10 years ago with my pneumonia, when I felt no pain all of a sudden and it was all calm, no fever, and I was floating along a dirt road, with bill boards on the left of pictures of starving Somalies ... with my cynical father's voice immitated, saying: "we surely are making too many children.", and I replied nothing, just astounded, almost feeling like to acknowledge.... and then I was all of a sudden swept around into a field nearby, and a dying brush of herbs lay there, a hand popping out the background picks it up and violently hits me on the head.... and there, I wake up, in fever and pain... knowing I went through near death, but not knowing to this day, WHO THIS VOICE CAME FROM (IT WAS SATAN WANTING ME TO LISTEN TO MY DAD! TRYING TO TELL ME TO AGREE AND GO TO HELL), and then, as I hesitated, I was honored to see the hand of God smacking me on the head with the last shrub of herb alive that I had not tended upon, but instead was made to think that making too many children was bad...

http://pub15.ezboard.com/fthefinalphasefrm18.showMessage?topicID=4651.topic

97 posted on 02/13/2004 12:11:23 PM PST by JudgemAll
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To: Zeroisanumber
And so many people's brains with all of their different life experiences come up with the same things while in basically the same state??? Your theory if correct should have people,s experiences as varied as their dreams.
98 posted on 04/10/2005 10:54:24 PM PDT by Bellflower (A new day is Coming!)
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To: Bellflower
And so many people's brains with all of their different life experiences come up with the same things while in basically the same state???

They don't. They first see a tunnel of white light, and then they dream up all sorts of whacked-out hallucenations including the usual: Dead relatives, Jesus, angels, etc. One guy in Philladelphia thought that he saw God and reported that God looked like Ronald McDonald.

The unusual thing is that the strongest beleivers in NDE are also people who tend to be fairly pious. Truly faithful people would understand that actual evidence of God or the afterlife would invalidate the true wonder of faith, and reduce us all to puppets carrying on a cruel play.

99 posted on 04/11/2005 8:26:15 AM PDT by Zeroisanumber
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