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Covenant Theology: Effectual Calling
Westminster Presbyterian Church ^ | Dr. James E. Bordwine

Posted on 02/07/2004 12:37:14 PM PST by sheltonmac

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To: Corin Stormhands
My energy level is low. Send some flames my way.

I could care less if I'm a puppet or not, the only one to get in or not....all I care about is being biblical in what I teach. I don't think tulip is correct.

21 posted on 02/09/2004 10:48:38 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Where do I say I know who "gets in?"

If that's what you got from my post, you misunderstood as usual. Perhaps you should read again with open eyes.

I'm not going to bicker with you.

Have a good day.

22 posted on 02/09/2004 10:49:15 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: biblewonk
The effect is that the leven of choice...is effecting the whole message of churches.

In what way?

23 posted on 02/09/2004 10:54:46 AM PST by opus86 (Eph. 2:10)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Gotta love that Calvinist attitude that says "to hell with the rest of the planet, as long as I get in."

Corin are looking to start a flame war?

That is not what she said.

It does not matter why a man says no..only that he does. You say that the man choose God..We say that the sovereign God has the right to choose men ..either way it is still that same number .

The issue is the expressed distaste for the idea that God might choose you..it is so awful a fate (eternity with God) that one can not understand how anyone but a puppet could respond with joy.

24 posted on 02/09/2004 10:57:38 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Corin Stormhands
Corin -- "Gotta love that Calvinist attitude that says, 'To hell with the rest of the planet, as long as I get in.'"

Not only do I not swear in my posts, Corin, but I also don't say I know who on this planet "gets in."

Now as is so often the case with you, we quibble over what's already been said. This is a bad habit of yours, and does nothing to move the discussion forward.

I'm having a great day. Hope yours is as well.

25 posted on 02/09/2004 10:59:59 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: RnMomof7
Corin are looking to start a flame war?

No ma'am. The only way you would see it that way is that you've completely missed my point.

Have a good day.

26 posted on 02/09/2004 11:00:35 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: xzins
Send some flames my way.

Yer a Pentecostal at heart, ain't ya?

27 posted on 02/09/2004 11:01:18 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; Vernon; ksen; Corin Stormhands; Revelation 911; The Grammarian; ...
It is not God drawing you that is the fate worse than death to the Arminian. The Arminian/Wesleyan knows full well that they cannot come to God lest they be drawn by the holy spirit. You obviously don't understand Arminian/Wesleyan teachings. I don't know if it is deliberate or if you are merely ignorant.

God drawing a man to him is what we as non-Calvinists pray for. We pray that God will draw the unsaved to him. The fate worse than death is the Calvinist position that God would, despite our prayers and despite our supplications, absolutely and unconditionally refuse to draw that person to him, because he has simply chosen him for eternal damnation from before the foundation of the earth.

The fate worse than death is the eternal damnation of those who never had any hope of salvation because God never wanted them to have that hope.

We cling to 1 Tim 2:4 because it shows our God to be a loving God who would have all men to be saved. We also recognize a sovereign God who cannot and will not allow unforgiven sin into his presence. There is no contradiction there. There is no dimunation of God's sovereignty if God lays down rules for the application of his grace and those who refuse to accept those rules pay the consequences. God has sovereignly given to all men the opportunity to be saved. God has sovereignly stated that he will accept all who come to him on those terms. God knows who they will be and has sovereignly predestined those whom he has foreknown will come to him to be justified, sanctified and glorified.

That is the Gospel. That is the good news. That you can be saved. Any one of you. Jesus is knocking and all you have to do is answer the door. And you CAN. God is not preventing you from answering the door. And God really loves YOU and really wants you to answer it. Yes there is good news. The keys to heaven are within your grasp. Reach out and grab them. And if you refuse, then you have no one but yourself to blame. That is the Good news. That is the Gospel.

For the Calvinist there is no good news. Just news. Either you are one of the lucky chosen or you are one of the unlucky damned and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it.

28 posted on 02/09/2004 11:04:37 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o* &AAGG & Former member of PWAODSDNPOPTML)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins
Very well said.
29 posted on 02/09/2004 11:06:20 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: Corin Stormhands
donchaknowit!
30 posted on 02/09/2004 11:10:47 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: P-Marlowe
I've wondered if the modern calvinist knows the discrepancy between what modern calvinism says arminians believe and what arminians actually believe.

The more I think about it, the more I've concluded that they have placed a "modern calvinist overlay" on everything, to include arminianism. They see the world through a particular lens and that lens is colored "modern calvinism."

I call it: As Seen Through A Calvinist Lens: ASTACL

One could make the case that we all see the world through our various lenses. But, what is significant is whether or not any individual can address the weaknesses of his/her particular lens/overlay.

31 posted on 02/09/2004 11:18:35 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: P-Marlowe
Marlowe, all you have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and you are saved.

We agree on that.

We disagree on where this motivation comes from.

You say man makes the final step toward God. Man opens the door to God. Man invites God in. Man sees the light and agrees with God.

The Calvinist says God first changes the heart of the sinner and then he believes.

Perhaps one day you'll grasp the distinction. Therein lies the world and all God's blessings.

32 posted on 02/09/2004 11:24:48 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe
I've wondered if the modern calvinist knows the discrepancy between what modern calvinism says arminians believe and what arminians actually believe.

I think the post right below yours proves your point.

33 posted on 02/09/2004 11:27:56 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (www.wardsmythe.com)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
See #31

We do say that the individual must believe. The point for is whether or not it's bible. We think it is.
34 posted on 02/09/2004 11:31:06 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: RnMomof7
They're a nervous group, aren't they?

They suffer from the Plague of Misplaced Uncertainty.

I guess I'd be worried, too, if I thought the fate of each of us rests on our own shoulders and not in the righteous hands of God.

Their burden is heavy and they carry it alone.

35 posted on 02/09/2004 11:31:58 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: biblewonk
Face it, it's becoming vey difficult to find election preaching anywhere.

Praise God from whom all blessings flow,
Praise Him all creatures here below
Praise Him above ye heavnly hosts,
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

Looks like truth eventually wins!

36 posted on 02/09/2004 11:32:33 AM PST by Vernon (Sir "Ol Vern" aka Brother Maynard, a child of the King!)
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To: Corin Stormhands
How many "modern calvinists" here do you think would be incapable of listing the weak points of calvinism?
37 posted on 02/09/2004 11:32:41 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: xzins
Uhhh...is that like looking through a glass darkly?
38 posted on 02/09/2004 11:35:58 AM PST by Vernon (Sir "Ol Vern" aka Brother Maynard, a child of the King!)
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To: P-Marlowe
That is the Good News of the Gospel. It is plain, it is simple, and it is available to all who desire eternal salvation. None are preempted by God, but one must choose to accept the free offer of eternal life on God's terms.
39 posted on 02/09/2004 11:38:16 AM PST by connectthedots (Recognize that not all Calvinists will be Christians in glory.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I cannot imagine it being a blessing that God would deliberately, intentionally, consciously send someone to an eternally burning hell...and for His glory? There is no hope in such a view, nothing but fear.
40 posted on 02/09/2004 11:40:18 AM PST by Vernon (Sir "Ol Vern" aka Brother Maynard, a child of the King!)
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