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Mel Gibson: $5 Mil to Fringe Church (FOX attacks "antiquated Catholic ideology")
FOX ^ | Friday, February 20, 2004 | By Roger Friedman

Posted on 02/20/2004 5:46:17 AM PST by Behind Liberal Lines

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To: yankeedame
**So instead of Revelation, may I suggest Ecclesiastes 3:1-8? ("To everything there is a season...")**

Excellent suggestion. One of my favorite chapters in the entire Bible!
301 posted on 02/21/2004 3:53:15 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: leprechaun9
No it isn't. Each Catholic bishop or archbishop can denote one parish for a Catholic Latin Mass. Whether he does it or not is his doing. But it is not prohibited by Rome.

Requests for Indults (Latin Masses) go in to Rome all the time.
302 posted on 02/21/2004 4:00:20 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sinkspur; Askel5; american colleen; ultima ratio; narses; Barnacle
Gibson follows an excommunicated sect. He, therefore is excommunicated. The Decree excommunicating Marcel Lefebvre was issue by John Paul II in 1988.

I shall put this delicately. You are dead wrong. You do not know what you are talking about. You should exercise custodianship of your hands and refrain from typing about things concerning which you know absolutely nothing at all.

303 posted on 02/21/2004 5:20:58 PM PST by Siobhan (+Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet+)
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To: All
They're discussing it on Heartland (FoxNews) now.
304 posted on 02/21/2004 5:25:07 PM PST by LisaMalia (In Memory of Sgt. James W. Lunsford..KIA 11-29-69 Binh Dinh S. Vietnam)
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To: Salvation
But I am guessing you do not approve of a woman being a lector or reader. Am I right?

You are correct. Luckily, it's not an issue at the Latin Mass. Like all the rest of these abuses, rather than attempt fruitlessly to attack them one at a time, you can cut every last one off at the source simply by attending the traditional Catholic Mass.

305 posted on 02/21/2004 5:27:55 PM PST by Maximilian
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To: Salvation
I'm sorry, Salvation, but I believe you have forgotten some possibilities that obtain for the very strange situation in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. Throughout Catholic history, the Popes have permitted chapels to be erected that were outside of the control of the diocesan bishop. It is a very interesting and peculiar bit of historical footnotes, but such things have happened and do happen. The Holy Father has real and immediate power to do many things and that can include the erection of a chapel with permissions granted for the saying of Mass, reservation of the sacrament, benediction, perpetual adoration. Indeed, all sorts of things have been sought and granted and have been done so in pectore. Please be careful in jumping on sinkspur's bandwagon to condemn Mel Gibson and the chapel he erected. Not everything is revealed to the public just because the press or the public want to know -- or even because the Archdiocese of Los Angeles under the leadership of Cardinal Mahony wants to know. There have long been bishops consecrated in pectore and cardinals named .

I perfectly understand if you disagree with me or believe me to be on the wrong page. I have my reasons for my position just as you do for citing your up to now. In pace Christi, Siobhan

306 posted on 02/21/2004 5:32:00 PM PST by Siobhan (+Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet+)
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To: sinkspur
How could the teachings of Vatican 2 be 'universally accepted' if in the same sentence he says that this church in particular rejects some of those teachings? It can't be 'universally accepted' if one group doesn't accept them.

They ARE universally accepted within the Catholic Church.

Since Catholic means universal, they are universally accepted in the universal church, which is like "universal squared" accepted or "really, really" accepted.

PS: No need to thank me for this profound theological insight. It's my pleasure...

307 posted on 02/21/2004 5:39:31 PM PST by Huber (Individuality, liberty, property-this is man.These 3 gifts from God precede all legislation-Bastiat)
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To: Salvation
Personally I don't think it is a good idea to have women in the sanctuary, period. I won't argue on scriptural grounds, simply as a practical matter. Allowing women in the sanctuary entices the radical feminists to bellow for even more "rights." Some non-radical-feminist women will be "converted" to radical feminism by being in the sanctuary. Additionally, the more often you put women in the sanctuary, the more the men will stay away. They will simply let the women do it. A way to solve this is to have no one but the priest and altar BOYS in the sanctuary. The priest can do the readings. We don't need lay people to do them. The sancuary is special ground. Priests and servers only. Men have been somewhat "de-balled" since the 1960's liberal revolution, in both the secular and religious arenas. The media doesn't help. For father figures we have gone from Father Knows Best and My Three Sons to Archie Bunker and Fred Sanford to Al Bundy and Homer Simpson. Having women take over in the Church, gives men an additional excuse to be Al Bundy and Homer Simpson.
308 posted on 02/21/2004 6:01:41 PM PST by RaginCajunTrad (Proud to be a Trad!)
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To: Salvation
More than one parish in a diocese can be designated for an Indult Mass. The bishop, in theory, could give all the priests in the diocese permission to pray the Traditional Mass any time they desire. No bishops do. Most bishops are recalcitrant in that matter and restrict the Indult Masses to one parish in the diocese one day a week often at odd times. Some bishops won't allow it at all.
309 posted on 02/21/2004 6:05:06 PM PST by RaginCajunTrad (Proud to be a Trad!)
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To: Siobhan
I shall put this delicately. You are dead wrong. You do not know what you are talking about.

Nope. He was excommnunicated in 1988 when he ordained four bishops without authority from the Pope.

It is you who don't know the facts of this situation.

You can look them up. There are dozens of threads which detail the facts.

310 posted on 02/21/2004 6:07:46 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: Possenti; AAABEST
Does this have reference to the "Trad" thang ya'll spoke of last month ?

Stay safe !

311 posted on 02/21/2004 6:10:28 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.)
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To: Maximilian
People aren't aware that there is an alternative. I wasn't aware of the alternative for many years. People feel trapped in their Novus Ordo hell where they get to hear heresy from the pulpit and off-key lounge singing accompanied by guitars. They just stop going. That has been the decision of the large majority of Catholics, "Just say no."

This has been my experience as well. I am among those who continue to go to church every week, and every week I hope for the best. But more often than not, I am deeply disappointed by the seemingly never-ending innovations that come down the pike with alarming frequency.

And I'm not alone. The other mothers I speak to are equally upset, but when I ask them to join me in protesting, they hesitate. They are intimidated by both the pastor, who is an utterly unrepentent hippy-dippy type, and the Liturgy Committee, which is made up of individuals who are equally hippy-dippy.

I'll tell you this: If all of a sudden a miracle happened, and the pope ordered all parishes to offer at least one traditional rite Mass per week, the place would be PACKED --especially with the families of the kids who attend the school (I know I'd certainly be there).

Regards,

312 posted on 02/21/2004 6:29:10 PM PST by VermiciousKnid
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To: Squantos
Yes, of course possenti and I can't go anywhere without being called "fringe", even when we give our lives to Christ.

Anyone who acts as Americans did before the summer of love is considered "fringe" to a leftist.

313 posted on 02/21/2004 6:31:31 PM PST by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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To: VermiciousKnid
I agree with you. Last week I attended a 4 PM afternoon Mass in a parish that I had not attended before. It's in a different diocese than the one I am in although it's only 20 minutes from my house. The priest was very good compared to the priest in my own parish. First time I have heard the Confetior outside of EWTN! The Mass was half full, an older crowd (55+ - 60+ mostly women and a few old men, just like the Saturday 5 PM at my own parish and in most parishes that have a Sat. afternoon Mass). This week I attended that same 4 PM Mass again except it was said by a priest who I later found out is an assistant priest who lives in the rectory but mostly does a hospital ministry, interestingly, he is from Ireland and maybe about 40 years old. Well, this priest was FANTASTIC! Everything you would want in a NO Mass - including the Hail Mary. The place was packed. Tons of young guys with small and medium kids. Traditional music, a homily that nearly brought tears to my eyes and which both my kids understood and listened to intently and talked about after Mass (now that never happens!). The priest was a "Baltimore Catechism" type priest and 100% Catholic and not afraid to be that way. He explained the readings and intertwined them with authentic Catholic teaching. Later I went over to my sisters house for a birthday party and she told me that the families in this town love this priest and beg the bishop to assign him his own parish. She says the families call the rectory and ask which Masses this priest is saying because they want their kids exposed to Catholicism.
314 posted on 02/21/2004 7:31:42 PM PST by american colleen
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To: sinkspur; Siobhan
If I may be so bold... I believe Siobhan is talking about the status of Mel Gibson and not the status of Bishop Lefebvre.

There is nothing that links Mel Gibson's adherence to the SSPX (aside of third hand media info, speculation on the part of the media and the imaginations of some SSPXers). In fact, there was Mass said on the set of "The Passion of the Christ" each day and most of the crew attended. The crew included Jim Caviezel (not an SSPXer) and Jesuits were all over the place (definitely not SSPXers!).

315 posted on 02/21/2004 8:07:55 PM PST by american colleen
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To: american colleen; sinkspur; Siobhan
The so called and self proclaimed "deacon" claims Mel Gibson is a schismatic excommunicant. He appears to have NO evidence for such a claim. Therefore his claim maybe a sinful calumny or slander. In fact, were I in Los Angeles, I'd do as Mel Gibson has. To affiliate with the heretical and defacto schismatic Abp. Mahoney (who now says it is OK to be a Mason), would be an ongoing occasion of sin and a grave risk to the souls of my family.
316 posted on 02/21/2004 8:16:11 PM PST by narses (If you want OFF or ON my Ping list, please email me.)
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To: Squantos; AAABEST
Yep. "Fringe" - I actually haven't heard that one in a while - I'm sort of used to being called "radical / extremist / old-fashioned", and let's not forget "skizmat".

More power to Mel. The lefties are only fueling the fire to give him one of the biggest box-office hits in decades. I expect the DVD/VHS sales to break all records. My wife just went to go buy advance tickets.

BTW - the private chapel I go to is also called "Holy Family" - named by the priest who drives almost two hours every Sunday to offer Mass there.

317 posted on 02/23/2004 3:33:03 PM PST by Possenti
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To: Possenti
named by the priest who drives almost two hours every Sunday to offer Mass there.

Yep. He sounds like my priest, Father Karl.

He's over 80 years old and thanklessly travels all over Florida just for the pleasure of serving his Lord and tending his flock. They get nothing worldly in return except abject poverty and rejection from the Roman mothership.

That's what I call a servant of God.

318 posted on 02/23/2004 3:49:27 PM PST by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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To: AAABEST
It's my understanding that during Lent, (traditional) Catholics shouldn't attend movies...

I'm sure there's an "exception clause" for this one???

319 posted on 02/23/2004 3:52:50 PM PST by Possenti
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To: Possenti
LOL

I would tend to think a movie showing how Jesus was humiliated, tortured and executed would qualify as something allowable during a season where we're supposed to reflect on how Jesus was humiliated, tortured and executed!

320 posted on 02/23/2004 4:25:02 PM PST by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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To: narses; american colleen; sinkspur; BlackElk
Thank you, colleen and narses. The sinkspur has been found out but is persistent in doing what he has been bidden to do.
321 posted on 02/24/2004 10:35:57 AM PST by Siobhan (+Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet+)
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To: Siobhan
The sinkspur has been found out but is persistent in doing what he has been bidden to do.

If you aren't aware that Gibson is outside union with Rome, you need to read more. He's said it himself.

322 posted on 02/24/2004 10:49:29 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
Where? Direct quotes please, not something that is said about him by someone else.
323 posted on 02/24/2004 11:00:53 AM PST by american colleen
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To: sinkspur
--- The screening that made Gibson most anxious was at Fulco’s university in Los Angeles, where 400 Jesuits watched it during a gathering at Loyola Marymount. Gibson explained to Boyer why he and Lauer were so nervous: “We’re Catholics, right? We’re scared of the Jesuits. Every good Catholic is.” --- from The Tablet 02/21/04 edition.

Jesuit advisors on the set... special screening for the pope and some in the vatican... screenings for some of the catholic bishops in the USA... special showings for many protestant groups... and none so far as I can tell for the leaders of any so called "schismatic" Catholic groups. And you know we'd know about it right away.

324 posted on 02/24/2004 11:09:11 AM PST by american colleen
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To: american colleen
"For 1,950 years [the church] does one thing and then in the '60s, all of a sudden they turn everything inside out and begin to do strange things that go against the rules," he told El Pais.

"Everything that had been heresy is no longer heresy, according to the [new] rules. We [Catholics] are being cheated... The church has stopped being critical. It has relaxed. I don't believe them, and I have no intention of following their trends.

Found here.

Gibson does not believe in the Church led by John Paul II.

325 posted on 02/24/2004 11:10:52 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
Holy Family rejects the universally accepted teachings of the Second Vatican Conference and chooses to stick with antiquated Catholic ideology.

This is just bad reporting. I'd wager that Holy Family rejects the "spirit of Vatican II" which has nothing to do with the actual teachings of Vatican II but is used by liberal Catholics to introduce new and heretical ideas and practices.

Vatican II didn't "change" anything in terms of Church teaching. However, Vatican II was used by liberals to bring about changes that most of the members of the Council never envisioned. It's similar to what activist liberal judges have done to the Constitution.

And, generally speaking, THIS is the reason why Mel Gibson and others have rebelled against crypto-schismatic dioceses like Los Angeles.
326 posted on 02/24/2004 11:18:29 AM PST by Antoninus (Federal Marriage Amendment NOW!)
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To: sinkspur
And of course, as everyone knows, the truth is determined by the majority and statistics!!!
327 posted on 02/24/2004 11:42:54 AM PST by Mershon
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To: sinkspur
Ah yes, the ole "fortress mentality" reasoning. And opening the doors to the outside--look at the wonderful results. More will be displayed in the press on Friday. "By their fruits, you shall know them."
328 posted on 02/24/2004 11:46:43 AM PST by Mershon
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To: Maximilian
Eighty percent did not leave due to Vatican II and the New Mass. Most left because of Humanae Vitae after years of priests and theologians in the 1960s telling them it was OK to use contraception. After the 1968 issue of the encyclical, many decided to change their religion rather than their internal urges.
329 posted on 02/24/2004 11:57:41 AM PST by Mershon
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To: Mershon
Eighty percent did not leave due to Vatican II and the New Mass. Most left because of Humanae Vitae after years of priests and theologians in the 1960s telling them it was OK to use contraception.

It's true that the 2 isues are closely related. But you have your facts wrong. The data show clearly that decline started before 1968, and it was already in full bloom by the time Humanae Vitae was released. Long before Humanae Vitae, the New Mass in the vernacular and the other changes associated with Vatican II had started to drive away a large proportion of the Catholic population.

Besides the statistics, look at it from a spiritual point of view: How was it possible for bishops, priests and lay people publicly to deny and dissent from an essential Catholic doctrine? Only someone who had already fallen from a state of grace could do so. The reaction to Humanae Vitae could never and would never have occurred prior to Vatican II.

330 posted on 02/24/2004 1:16:44 PM PST by Maximilian
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To: Mershon
And opening the doors to the outside--look at the wonderful results. More will be displayed in the press on Friday. "By their fruits, you shall know them."

The worst abusers (Shanley, Geoghan, Porter) were all ordained before Vatican II.

331 posted on 02/24/2004 1:20:15 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: Mershon
And of course, as everyone knows, the truth is determined by the majority and statistics!!!

In the Catholic Church, the truth is found in union with the Pope and bishops, not this "personal choice" Catholicism that Gibson pursues.

332 posted on 02/24/2004 1:22:33 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
Sink those are quotes taken out of context that are attributed to him and are found all over the internet in various stages of decomposition. I believe the NYT is the originator. I believe nothing I read in the newspapers unless it is by a reputable person and I mostly actually go by his own words from the many interviews he does.

People call him a trad and in once newspaper account it stated: "traditionalists do not recognize the validity of Vatican II" - which is just not true.

My parish priest calls me a traditionalist.

There was a Mass said every day on the set of "The Passion of Christ" the Jesuits on set attended as did Jim Caveziel - who is definitely not SSPX (if that's what you think Gibson is).

333 posted on 02/24/2004 1:26:46 PM PST by american colleen
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