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QUESTIONING 'PASSION' AND THE GOSPEL TRUTH (crossing over into Christian-hating)
NY POST ^ | February 21, 2004 | LETTERS TO THE EDITOR

Posted on 02/21/2004 2:55:03 AM PST by Liz

Edited on 05/26/2004 5:19:41 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

A movie about the Gospel sparks outrage, but movies that depict graphic sexual activity, romanticize criminals and constantly bombard us with violence are not criticized. If those movies are released without outrage, let he who is without sin cast the first stone against Gibson. Mary Maresco Sarasota, Fla.


(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events
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Surely the talented Mel Gibson ---recipient of several Oscars for acting and directing---was prepared for the ragtag cadre of naysayers bent on marginalizing his awesome film.

It was never entirely practical to think that non-believers---even at a purely intellectual and artistic level----would embrace Gibson's efforts on a subject in which he sincerely believes with all of his heart and soul---a subject Gibson shares with millions of American Christians, not to mention global Christianity numbering in the billions.

However, it appears that some of Gibson's critics cross the line into a demonstration of utter hatred for Christians, Christianity, and the Biblical facts of Jesus Christ making the ultimate sacrifice by dying on the cross to save humanity.

Christians cannot, nor should they be expected to, countenance hatred of themselves or their beliefs.

It's apparent that Gibson's film is unnerving to a small pocket of naysayers imbedded in our culture. These types have put in decades of work----together with calculated, concerted efforts---to subugate believers, to discredit Christianity, and to remove all signs of religion from our culture.

But they have never been able to remove belief from the hearts of the people. This is where they've failed miserably.

One might conclude that Mel's film is anathema to the naysayers because it shines a light on the eternal story that animates Christians and it ennobles Chritianity and those that accept its tenets.

1 posted on 02/21/2004 2:55:04 AM PST by Liz
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To: Liz
Some of my thoughts on the many "Passion" threads:

I don't think the issue is "Jew vs Gibson's 'Passion'" it's "Secular Liberals vs Gibson's 'Passion'" of which many are secular/liberal Jews. You find more support for the movie coming from conservative Jews who respect our faith. On top of that, both groups are united in our common cause against secular/liberals.

My big concern, with all the left has failed to do to stop this movie and the hype surrounding it, is that they may resort to voilence in the end to keep people from seeing the movie.

We are discussing a polarizing event, but it's even more than Christianity vs Liberalism . It is very much Good vs Evil. The threat that the message of Christ's sacrifice poses to them has driven them into a panic. I really believe they are prepared to do anything to stop that message from spreading.

So anyone hear anything about when THE SEQUEL will be out?

2 posted on 02/21/2004 3:03:48 AM PST by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Caipirabob
The sequel to Passion? Oh, you mean the Resurrection, of course. Yeah, that's gonna make a great movie. I hear Hollywarped is getting a slew of screenplays on it. Oh, and a remake of the Ten Commandments is also in the works.
3 posted on 02/21/2004 3:09:45 AM PST by Liz
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To: Caipirabob
My big concern, with all the left has failed to do to stop this movie and the hype surrounding it, is that they may resort to violence in the end to keep people from seeing the movie.

Another significant concern I have heard some voice is the possibility of an pseudo-anti-semitic "Reichstag fire" event of some sort (since those opposed to the film have already asserted to the public that such consequences from this "hate film" are inevitable).

The people opposed to this film should not be underestimated; many are literally evil incarnate.

4 posted on 02/21/2004 3:24:20 AM PST by Technogeeb
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To: Caipirabob
Resorting to violence? Hmmmm. Lawsuits maybe, but not violence. They would love to criminalize Christianity.

Anti-Passion, religio-phobic lefties fear that the movie will organize a highly visibly force---a demonstrative religious-loving Nation---a Nation that lefties have worked so hard to suppress, disparage and denigrate over the years.

Lefties fear Passion-inspired religionists may never go back to being force-fed the garbage warped Hollyweirdos' spew out in movies, music and TV.

Theirs has been a calculated attempt to subvert western culture and to weaken the foundations of America's strength. The ACLU, Planned Parenthood, Americans for Separation of Church and State, People for The American Way, and the Hollywarped denizens, have all played their parts to construct The Aberrant Culture.

Libs planned to foment a chaotic, fully fornicating society, with abortion on demand to clean up the mess and it has been very successful.

American traditions are being replaced by gay marriage, gangsta rap, hard and softcore-porn in music, TV broadcasts, and movies. This is proselytized in schools (without parents knowledge or consent under the guise of "Family Life" education), on TV, movies, music.

Leftist revisionists are now busy reinterpreting American history, literature and traditions. Even American heroes like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln are subject to leftist revision and slander.

We are nearing the point where having faith and espousing the Christian religion is close to being criminalized.

If lefties are allowed to continue this course to its logical conclusion, the death of Western Civilization would be upon us.

However, many Christians feel Mel's film will alter the course of history.......and just in time.

5 posted on 02/21/2004 3:25:06 AM PST by Liz
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To: Liz
Amen and Amen
6 posted on 02/21/2004 3:38:25 AM PST by gakrak
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To: Liz
What gets lost in all the fuss about this film is the simple fact that the staunchest supporters of the state of Israel (outside of the Jewish community) are the Conservative Christians in the USA. The reason this fact gets left out of all these discussions is because the discussions are led by leftists --- who hate the Christian religion and the Israeli state with an equal passion.
7 posted on 02/21/2004 3:42:38 AM PST by samtheman
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To: Liz
I posted this quote the other day.

It was posted by Dialup Llama in a thread earlier this week, and he/she did a good job of nailing down the hypocrisy. Here is his quote:

They loved Jesus when he was a clown (Godspell). They went crazy over Him as rock star (Jesus Christ Superstar). When Jesus was portrayed as having an affair with Mary Magdelene (Last Temptation) or as a homosexual (Corpus Christie), the liberal theologians did not object, but took it as an opportunity to explore the misnamed 'historical Jesus.' They cannot stand Jesus as savior. The crucified person is too much for them. They would much prefer the affable teller of parables.

8 posted on 02/21/2004 3:48:39 AM PST by dawn53
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To: Liz


Oddly, Abe Foxman ties bin Laden in his hatred of "The Passion"


Watch November's voting %ages and compare......




9 posted on 02/21/2004 3:53:54 AM PST by autoresponder (JAMES BOND: http://00access.tripod.com/007.html J-FK: http://00access.tripod.com/Kerry.html)
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To: Liz; samtheman
the reason i hang out at FR is to enjoy the eloquence -near to poetry, imo- of comments like your post #5. AND to get samtheman's point too. thank you both.
10 posted on 02/21/2004 3:56:18 AM PST by 1john2 3and4
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To: dawn53; Dialup Llama
DIALUPLlAMA POST They loved Jesus when he was a clown (Godspell). They went crazy over Him as rock star (Jesus Christ Superstar). When Jesus was portrayed as having an affair with Mary Magdelene (Last Temptation) or as a homosexual (Corpus Christie), the liberal theologians did not object, but took it as an opportunity to explore the misnamed 'historical Jesus.' They cannot stand Jesus as savior. The crucified person is too much for them. They would much prefer the affable teller of parables.

Excellent Dialup Lama post. Thanks for adding it to the thread. The insights
expressed by Dialup are revelatory. BTW, I also have a Dialup Llama fave:

DIALUPLlAMA POST (I see that MSNBC continues their downward spiral. they have returned to attacking Mel Gibson's father.) I expect this. The elites can tolerate a Jesus movie if its made in a stilted religious mode. They are OK with movies that take the Gospel as a script. (The Gospels are not a movie script and and using them as a script makes the film take on a stiff quality, almost as if one is making a silent movie with narration going on in the background.) But they cannot stand a movie that clearly portrays Jesus as savior if it has a compelling artistic vision, a good script and has any chance of becoming a cultural phenomena.

11 posted on 02/21/2004 4:01:03 AM PST by Liz
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: 1john2 3and4
(Blush), many thanks for your kind comments.
13 posted on 02/21/2004 4:03:15 AM PST by Liz
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To: samtheman
i completly agree with you
i spend most of my time on the religion side of FR
i am born again and have buisness associates that are orthodox jewish individuals
we have discussed their veiw of the passion
they have no belief whatsoever that the film is anti-semetic
14 posted on 02/21/2004 4:09:20 AM PST by alpha-8-25-02 (saved by GRACE and GRACE alone)
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To: Wolfgang_Blitzkrieg
Friend, the question is where in God's kingdom are we gonna get enough vodka and valium available to sedate all the hyperventilating libs we have on our hands over this movie?
15 posted on 02/21/2004 4:10:10 AM PST by Liz
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To: Liz
lol.....didnt mean to embarass, but your post just nailed it ....also, visit this thread; http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1082525/posts for a wise rabbi's comments
16 posted on 02/21/2004 4:10:47 AM PST by 1john2 3and4
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To: Technogeeb
Some people (read Foxman's hate group) are now saying that Mel Gibson USED THEM to get publicity for his movie.
17 posted on 02/21/2004 4:11:15 AM PST by kcvl
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To: samtheman
What gets lost in all the fuss about this film is the simple fact that the staunchest supporters of the state of Israel (outside of the Jewish community) are the Conservative Christians in the USA.
18 posted on 02/21/2004 4:12:14 AM PST by kcvl
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To: 1john2 3and4
Thanks for the link....that is a good reference piece.
19 posted on 02/21/2004 4:13:16 AM PST by Liz
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To: dawn53
They loved Jesus when he was a clown (Godspell). They went crazy over Him as rock star (Jesus Christ Superstar). When Jesus was portrayed as having an affair with Mary Magdelene (Last Temptation) or as a homosexual (Corpus Christie), the liberal theologians did not object, but took it as an opportunity to explore the misnamed 'historical Jesus.' They cannot stand Jesus as savior. The crucified person is too much for them. They would much prefer the affable teller of parables.
20 posted on 02/21/2004 4:13:47 AM PST by kcvl
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To: Liz
crossing over into Christian-hating

I know that language changes over time, but lately “hatred” seems to have become synonymous with “disagreement”.
If I disagree with some tenets of a religion I must hate that religion.
If I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, I must hate homosexuals.
If I disagree with some aspects of a racial norm, I must hate that race.
If I disagree with a political party’s stance, I must hate that party.
If I disagree with a politician on any aspect of policy, I must hate that politician.

Sorry, I refuse to “hate” unless there is a real driving deep seated reason. “Hate” is a very strong emotion - possibly the strongest one we have. I will “disagree” or “dislike”, but not hate - no matter how politically correct it may be today.

21 posted on 02/21/2004 4:13:58 AM PST by R. Scott (My cynicism rises with the proximity of the elections.)
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To: dawn53
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!
22 posted on 02/21/2004 4:17:47 AM PST by FlatLandBeer
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To: Wolfgang_Blitzkrieg
The highly acclaimed American book--"ETERNAL TREBLINKA: Our Treatment of Animals and the Holocaust" by Dr. Charles Patterson--is fast becoming a big hit in Europe and beyond. Two years after its publication by Lantern Books in New York City the controversial animal rights book has been translated into Italian, Polish, Czech, and German.
23 posted on 02/21/2004 4:18:26 AM PST by kcvl
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To: Liz
I believe my problem lies in many of the recent movies (Last Temptation of Christ) were based on elements that could not be supported by scripture. If we're going to do a Christ movie, then let it be scriptural.

I read on some threads last Mel's movie is also guilty of straying from scripture in some key aspects, especially as it relates to the role of Jews in the events leading upt and including to his crucifixtion. So why the wide support from evangelicals for Mel and the pummelling of Last Temptation?

24 posted on 02/21/2004 4:24:30 AM PST by joesbucks
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To: joesbucks
In Eternal Treblinka, not only are we shown the common roots of Nazi genocide and modern society's enslavement and slaughter of non-human animals in unprecedented detail, but for the first time we are presented with extensive evidence of the profoundly troubling connections between animal exploitation in the United States and Hitler's Final Solution. Dr. Patterson does not let us forget, moreover, that the practices of the quintessentially American institution of the slaughterhouse that served as a model for the slaughter of human beings during the Nazi Holocaust flourish to this day.
25 posted on 02/21/2004 4:26:47 AM PST by kcvl
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To: kcvl
The connection is that the nazis, like the leftists, support the rights of animals over people.
26 posted on 02/21/2004 4:36:05 AM PST by johnb838 (Phoney Medals, Real-life Traitor, J. Effing Kerry, Esq.)
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To: Technogeeb
Another significant concern I have heard some voice is the possibility of an pseudo-anti-semitic "Reichstag fire" event of some sort (since those opposed to the film have already asserted to the public that such consequences from this "hate film" are inevitable). The people opposed to this film should not be underestimated; many are literally evil incarnate.

I'll have to admit that what you say is disturbing ...."that those opposed to the film have already asserted....that such (violent) consequences from this 'hate film' are inevitable."

This is so hurtful to Christians. You're saying that in order to discredit Christians, incidences of violence have been predicted and that actual acts of violence will be surreptitiously performed and the blame placed on Christians.

In this scenario, the intention is to make Christians look like hate-filled people, while the real haters, the people who hate the film, come out looking like "victims."

Victimization, Yeah, that makes sense. It's the liberals favorite position. Whenever they get into trouble, they usually stoop down and assume the position of "victim." It's the way they manipulate public opinion.....to either A) cause victims, B) concoct victims, C) play victim, D) commiserate over victims, or E) create new classes of victims to bleed over.

As far as someone predicting acts of violence, I would conclude that Christians have no other recourse but to notify authorities in areas where they will be gathering to see the film.

Thank you for giving us your important insights on this turn of events.

27 posted on 02/21/2004 4:47:20 AM PST by Liz
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To: joesbucks
Yes, Temptation was Scorcese's exploitation of a false theme. But that was then. This is now.

Christians of all tempers are rushing to see Mel's Passion b/c for the first time we will actually see a film that is authentic particularly after years of being marginalized by a secular culture.

I don't belive Mel strayed signigicantly from Scripture except that he omitted from subtitles words spoken on-screen ---Biblical quotes about Jesus given up to be killed and how that came about.

28 posted on 02/21/2004 4:55:53 AM PST by Liz
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To: Liz
Have you seen the film?
29 posted on 02/21/2004 4:59:44 AM PST by veronica ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people." GW Bush 1-20-04)
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To: R. Scott
I tend to use the word hate, as I would use the word love, as a visceral psychological condition --- as in a mindset---rather than mere shallow emotion.

Using the word hate --as well as love--in such a context describes a whole range of potentialities. For example, love suggests sex, desire, gratification.

Hate suggests depersonalization, subugation, marginalization.

30 posted on 02/21/2004 5:02:51 AM PST by Liz
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To: Liz
In the early 1960s, the Catholic Church's Vatican II Council stated that Jews of the past, as well as the Jews of today, bear no responsibility for the death of Jesus.

If this is true, Vatican II was wrong. Every human who ever lived, except for Jesus Christ, bears the responsibility for the death of Jesus. That's the point that these people are missing.

31 posted on 02/21/2004 5:02:59 AM PST by alnick
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To: Liz
Have you actually seen the movie yet?
32 posted on 02/21/2004 5:04:39 AM PST by veronica ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people." GW Bush 1-20-04)
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To: veronica
You are not helping your cause by bashing Christians and insinuating that everyone, who doesn't believe as you do, is antisemitic...


The International Christian Zionist Center


Based in Israel's capital, the International Christian Zionist Center (ICZC) exists to summon all true believers - as Zechariah foretells, "ten out of each nation" - to the aid of the people of Israel.

In pursuit of its task, the ICZC traces a strategic political and economic path whereby to generate committed and pro-active support for Israel in the Christian world.

We achieve this in the following ways:

By directing attention to the Lord God of Israel and to His purposes for His ancient people and land, and for the world.

By communicating to political leaders in Israel and in the Judeo-Christian nations the biblical truths concerning the Jews' incontestable right to the Land of Israel and to Jerusalem.

By opposing all efforts to dispossess the Jewish people of any part of their God-ordained national homeland, with a concerted effort directed against the establishment of a Palestinian state.

By educating Christians worldwide concerning Israel's ancient and modern history, tracing the unbroken line from God's covenant with Abraham to the Israel of our day.

By explaining the tactics and goals of Israel's enemies, exposing what they say among themselves and bringing the plots and plans they lay in darkness out into the light.

By exposing and challenging the anti-Semitic/anti-Israel bias that pervades and dominates the press in the Judeo-Christian world, and by demanding media accountability.

By strategizing with Christian policy makers and business people to determine the most effective political and economic ways to support Israel and oppose Israel's foes.
33 posted on 02/21/2004 5:14:10 AM PST by kcvl
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To: kcvl
I asked a simple question, whether Liz had seen the movie yet.

I am very grateful for the support of Christian Zionists, and I am very aware of all the organizations that support Israel and Jews.

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

The fact is that some reviewers, NOT JEWISH, have found fault with Mel Gibson, and the manner in which he has promoted his film. Will they too be branded as anti-Christian for commenting on this angle of the movie, or on the movie itself? Is Mel Gibson now innoculated against any criticism?

And is it possible that people could be naive enough to believe that Gibson has not set out the strategy himself, to create controversy in order to generate interest and box office?

34 posted on 02/21/2004 5:30:58 AM PST by veronica ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people." GW Bush 1-20-04)
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To: kcvl
Liz wrote in her editorializing Surely the talented Mel Gibson ---recipient of several Oscars for acting and directing---was prepared for the ragtag cadre of naysayers bent on marginalizing his awesome film.

I would have to assume that anyone who calls this film "awesome" has seen it. It may indeed be an awesome film. I hope it is cause I love great movies. But I need to actually see it before deciding if it is "awesome" or not. And certainly before I start attacking others who have a different opinion about it.

Is the Miami flim reviewer Christopher Kelly part of the "rag-tag" cadre of naysayers bent on marginalizing Mel's film?? Is any critic who does not like it a member of this "rag-tag" cadre of naysayers (hint-hint anti-Christians"))???

35 posted on 02/21/2004 5:38:59 AM PST by veronica ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people." GW Bush 1-20-04)
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To: veronica
Mel Gibson didn't ask Abe Foxman & his hate-filled gangsters to bad mouth his film (and his father). I guess that was Gibson's strategy. /sarcasm

Have you seen the movie?

I can tell how much you appreciate the support by taking every chance you get to make allegations and innuendo about this movie. Why are you so against this movie? Do you really think that Christian people are going to walk out of this movie hating Jews? If you do, I think you are a bit nieve.
36 posted on 02/21/2004 5:44:30 AM PST by kcvl
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To: Caipirabob
It is very much Good vs Evil.

Mel's movie represents a watershed event in the broader culture war. Our side is finally offering something positively, instead of fighting a constant rear-guard battle. It's much easier to put the other side on the defensive. Mel's opponents look pathetic, and their actions are counter-productive.

In a repeat of Mel's interview with Raymond Arroyo on EWTN last night, Mel strongly suggested that he plans on doing more Bible-based movies. A string of successes will spawn imitators, and could represent the beginnings of a traditionalist cultural movement in Hollywood.

37 posted on 02/21/2004 5:48:27 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Technogeeb
Another significant concern I have heard some voice is the possibility of an pseudo-anti-semitic "Reichstag fire" event of some sort

Or painting swastikas on synagogues. I wouldn't put anything past them.

38 posted on 02/21/2004 5:51:51 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: kcvl
Others besides Abe Foxman have objected to both aspects of the movie and the manner in which Gibson has promoted it. From the get-go there were CHRISTIANS who found fault with it, yet, only the small number of Jews who sniped with Gibson have gotten press play.

The fact is that Gibson's father is out there saying things David Duke and Streicher might say, and there is no reason to ignore his rantings, just because he is Mel Gibson's father. The old man is in fact injecting himself into the debate.

I have not seen the movie and I have not opined about it, neither calling it awesome or not. I have reacted to various articles on, and what I KNOW, from my years working in Hollywood is, a very well-orchestrated and in fact brilliant PR campaign to generate interest in the film.

39 posted on 02/21/2004 5:54:39 AM PST by veronica ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people." GW Bush 1-20-04)
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To: Aquinasfan
Another significant concern I have heard some voice is the possibility of an pseudo-anti-semitic "Reichstag fire" event of some sort Or painting swastikas on synagogues. I wouldn't put anything past them.

I can feel the LOVE just oozing from some of the "fans" of this movie....;)

40 posted on 02/21/2004 5:57:17 AM PST by veronica ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people." GW Bush 1-20-04)
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To: R. Scott
Sorry, I refuse to “hate” unless there is a real driving deep seated reason. “Hate” is a very strong emotion - possibly the strongest one we have. I will “disagree” or “dislike”, but not hate - no matter how politically correct it may be today.

Well said.

41 posted on 02/21/2004 6:00:36 AM PST by Steve1789 (Stay to the far right to get by.)
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To: veronica
The fact is that some reviewers, NOT JEWISH, have found fault with Mel Gibson, and the manner in which he has promoted his film. Will they too be branded as anti-Christian for commenting on this angle of the movie, or on the movie itself?

Of course they will. Besides, just like anti-Semitism, it isn't mere fault-finding, but the nature of those perceived faults that is so bothersome.

42 posted on 02/21/2004 6:03:21 AM PST by wimpycat ("Black holes are where God divided by zero.")
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To: kcvl
Is the evangelical support because it's Foxman who is griping about the film or the film's strict adherence to the scriptures?
43 posted on 02/21/2004 6:03:44 AM PST by joesbucks
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To: R. Scott
Hey, its OK to hate sin and its purveyors.
44 posted on 02/21/2004 6:12:32 AM PST by DonnerT (Any compromise with evil is capitulation.!)
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To: Liz
So you - along with many others - have devalued the word “hate” to the point where it is no more than an attention getting expression.
What term do you use when you wish to express actual real hatred?
45 posted on 02/21/2004 6:17:33 AM PST by R. Scott (My cynicism rises with the proximity of the elections.)
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To: DonnerT
As I stated - I reserve the term for something I actually hate. It is not a term I use lightly.
46 posted on 02/21/2004 6:19:36 AM PST by R. Scott (My cynicism rises with the proximity of the elections.)
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To: Liz
I don't hear any body from real life (people I know, work with, share meals with, across the counter at the gas station, etc...) complaining about the movie. It's sort of like all the wailing when that Kennedy guy and his chick had that plane crash. I never did meet someone who cared to the extent that the "World News Tonight" cared.

It's a lot of noise coming from a very small, albiet very loud, squeeky wheel. And if I ever heard someone complaining about the movie it would be my opportunity to smugly say, "Well if you don't like it, you don't have to watch it."
47 posted on 02/21/2004 6:20:39 AM PST by AD from SpringBay (We have the government we allow and deserve.)
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To: veronica
What's the difference between Abe Foxman, David Duke, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton?
48 posted on 02/21/2004 6:24:33 AM PST by kcvl
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To: joesbucks
As a Southern Baptist, I can say it's the scriptural accuracy of the film that has gained the film evangelical support. Evangelicals are really big on going only by the Bible, the scriptures as sole authority on the Christian religion. That, of course, is a fundamental difference evangelicals have with Catholics. Let's put it another way; if the Southern Baptist Convention or someone like Billy Graham thought there was something "wrong", scripturally speaking, with the movie, the evangelicals would be leading the charge against the film, just like with "The Last Temptation of Christ". They would be accusing Mel, this worldly Hollywood star who is also some weird sort of *gasp*, Catholic (spit, spit!) of toying with scripture, of trying to 'sex up' the Gospels, just like Hollywood always tries to pervert everything decent, dontcha know. But, since the movie is faithful to the Gospel accounts, and since the main thrust of Foxman's attacks are aimed at the content of the film, the perception is that it's not Mel Gibson, but the Gospels themselves, and those who take the Gospels as...well, gospel truth, that are under attack.
49 posted on 02/21/2004 6:27:37 AM PST by wimpycat ("Black holes are where God divided by zero.")
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To: joesbucks
I can't speak for anyone but me and it's because of my faith. It has nothing to do with Foxman except that he is trashing it. I don't appreciate that because I support the Jewish people. I always have but it doesn't seem to matter to them about trashing my faith. I would think the same if it was Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell trashing the Jewish faith because they don't speak for me.
50 posted on 02/21/2004 6:32:39 AM PST by kcvl
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