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Celebrating "Fat Tuesday" When did it start?
American Catholic ^ | Feb 21 th,2004

Posted on 02/21/2004 4:56:40 PM PST by missyme

Mardi Gras' Catholic Roots

Mardi Gras, literally "Fat Tuesday," has grown in popularity in recent years as a raucous, sometimes hedonistic event. But its roots lie in the Christian calendar, as the "last hurrah" before Lent begins on Ash Wednesday. That's why the enormous party in New Orleans, for example, ends abruptly at midnight on Tuesday, with battalions of streetsweepers pushing the crowds out of the French Quarter towards home.

What is less known about Mardi Gras is its relation to the Christmas season, through the ordinary-time interlude known in many Catholic cultures as Carnival. (Ordinary time, in the Christian calendar, refers to the normal "ordering" of time outside of the Advent/Christmas or Lent/Easter seasons. There is a fine Scripture From Scratch article on that topic if you want to learn more.)

Carnival comes from the Latin words carne vale, meaning "farewell to the flesh." Like many Catholic holidays and seasonal celebrations, it likely has its roots in pre-Christian traditions based on the seasons. Some believe the festival represented the few days added to the lunar calendar to make it coincide with the solar calendar; since these days were outside the calendar, rules and customs were not obeyed.

Others see it as a late-winter celebration designed to welcome the coming spring. As early as the middle of the second century, the Romans observed a Fast of 40 Days, which was preceded by a brief season of feasting, costumes and merrymaking.

The Carnival season kicks off with the Epiphany, also known as Twelfth Night, Three Kings' Day and, in the Eastern churches, Theophany. Epiphany, which falls on January 6, 12 days after Christmas, celebrates the visit of the Wise Men bearing gifts for the infant Jesus. In cultures that celebrate Carnival, Epiphany kicks off a series of parties leading up to Mardi Gras.

Epiphany is also traditionally when celebrants serve King's Cake, a custom that began in France in the 12th century. Legend has it that the cakes were made in a circle to represent the circular routes that the Wise Men took to find Jesus, in order to confuse King Herod and foil his plans of killing the Christ Child.

In the early days, a coin or bean was hidden inside the cake, and whoever found the item was said to have good luck in the coming year. In Louisiana, bakers now put a small baby, representing the Christ Child, in the cake; the recipient is then expected to host the next King Cake party.

There are well-known season-long Carnival celebrations in Europe and Latin America, including Nice, France; Cologne, Germany; and Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. The best-known celebration in the U.S. is in New Orleans and the French-Catholic communities of the Gulf Coast. Mardi Gras came to the New World in 1699, when a French explorer arrived at the Mississippi River, about 60 miles south of present day New Orleans. He named the spot Point du Mardi Gras because he knew the holiday was being celebrated in his native country that day.

Eventually the French in New Orleans celebrated Mardi Gras with masked balls and parties, until the Spanish government took over in the mid-1700s and banned the celebrations. The ban continued even after the U.S. government acquired the land but the celebrations resumed in 1827. The official colors of Mardi Gras, with their roots in Catholicism, were chosen 10 years later: purple, a symbol of justice; green, representing faith; and gold, to signify power.

Mardi Gras literally means "Fat Tuesday" in French. The name comes from the tradition of slaughtering and feasting upon a fattened calf on the last day of Carnival. The day is also known as Shrove Tuesday (from "to shrive," or hear confessions), Pancake Tuesday and fetter Dienstag. The custom of making pancakes comes from the need to use up fat, eggs and dairy before the fasting and abstinence of Lent begins.


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1 posted on 02/21/2004 4:56:41 PM PST by missyme
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To: missyme
Unforunatley "Mardi Gras" is like and event out of "Soddom and Gommorrah now in New Orleans...
2 posted on 02/21/2004 4:59:54 PM PST by missyme
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To: missyme
But at our church we'll be having a traditional Shrove Tuesday supper.
3 posted on 02/21/2004 5:54:02 PM PST by Eala (Sacrificing tagline fame for... TRAD ANGLICAN RESOURCE PAGE: http://eala.freeservers.com/anglican)
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To: missyme
Of course in the East, we don't try to eat up all the non-Lenten food in a single blow-out before the Fast: we get a week with no fasting after the Sunday of the Pharisee and the Publican (so we can't boast of fasting twice a week every week), then an ordinary week with Wednesday and Friday fasts, then 'Cheesefare Week' when only meat is off limits in the food department, and then Lent begins on Pure Monday. (With clean faces as Christ counseled.)

Of course, post-Vatican-II, Mardi Gras or Carnivale is a kind of pointless party isn't it?

4 posted on 02/21/2004 8:33:11 PM PST by The_Reader_David
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To: missyme
The King Cakes are awesome, unless you ingest the plastic baby Jesus.
5 posted on 02/21/2004 8:35:30 PM PST by drstevej
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To: missyme
For what it is worth - there is no Scriptural justification for Mardi Gras or Lent. These are emmendations by the Roman Catholic Church.

Isn't interesting that the Apostle Paul warned against celebrating days and seasons in his letter to the Colossians, yet this is exactly what the RC does...not just with Lent, but with almost daily feast days?

6 posted on 02/21/2004 9:51:57 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper; The_Reader_David
Obviously Mardi Gras (which began as a MUCH more low key sort of thing) has been dragged into the mire as has so much in western society. None the less (and speaking as an Anglican now), it makes about as much sense to accuse Rome of the excesses of Mardi Gras as it does to accuse the Calvinism of the Puritans for the historically recorded acts of vandalism,violence and oppression which some of them committed against members of other denominations between the Reformation and the early colonization of North America.

That being said, it is at best a misunderstanding to suggest that Lent is a celebration. Indeed for those of us in the various historical churches (Anglican, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox) who observe Lent, it is a time of humility and prayer. Lent is intended as a set time in the year in which people seek to understand that Christ's suffering and death were required because of *our* sins.

For all of Lent our liturgies are also modified to reflect that, even though Sunday is by definition a sort of miniature feast day, even on Sundays we are to be remembering and contemplating that He bore *our* griefs and carried *our* sorrows...and by HIS stripes we are healed.

Also, traditionally in Anglicanism (and elsewhere) one abstains from something throughout the time of Lent - usually something which is not essential to one's life but which one likes a great deal - in my case it's often chocolate. The idea here is to use this abstinence as an ongoing reminder that no matter how much I'd like a chocolate cookie, my minor discomfort at not being able to have one is far less than nothing compared to Christ's sufferings because of my sins.

Similarly keeping the fast on Wednesday and Friday (traditionally the intent here was to eat nothing until after Communion on those afternoons; though where such is not available one simply doesn't eat breakfast or lunch) is intended as another one of those reminders. [Reader_David - is Orthodox practice on this similar or different?]

Indeed I would submit that the failure to recognize Lent is one of the ongoing contributing factors to the false triumphalism so evident in some portions of the Protestant spectrum.

In short, focusing on the excesses of a paganized Mardi Gras appears to me as merely an excuse to avoid dealing with the true nature of the Lenten Season, and by doing so one is simply (intentionally or otherwise) avoiding recognizing the depths of one's own sinful and fallen nature.
7 posted on 02/22/2004 11:13:36 AM PST by ahadams2 (Anglican Freeper Resource Page: http://eala.freeservers.com/anglican/)
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To: ahadams2
Orthodox practice is to fast according to the Lenten rule on Wednesdays and Fridays (except for the week of the Pharisee and the Publican, Bright Week (following Pascha) and the time from Christmas until the vigil of Theophany. (Of course in addition to the four major fasts: Great Lent, the Nativity Lent, the Apostle's Fast and the Dormition Fast, and sometimes modified to allow oil and wine, or fish, oil and wine when a major feast falls on the day.) The strictly observant eat only one meal on Lenten days, and that after the ninth hour (3:00 PM). More commonly the rule of abstinence from all foods derived from vertibrates, oil, wine and strong drink is observed in addition to a lightening of meals form what are usually eaten.

I wasn't really faulting the Latin church for the excesses of Mardi Gras, only for 1. vitiating their traditional fasting discipline at Vatican II, and 2. not providing a lead up to Lent in terms of discipline to ease the faithful into the season of repentence as the Orthodox Church does even back when their ascetic practice was more vigorous--which lack provided the easily paganized last big party just before Lent (which now thanks to 1. no longer even serves as a farewell to meat).

8 posted on 02/22/2004 6:50:53 PM PST by The_Reader_David
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To: ahadams2
I seek neither to praise nor condemn Mardi Gras nor Lent. I am merely seeking the historical roots of same. I don't see anything in Scripture that leads me to believe these are "biblical." So I am simply inquiring.
9 posted on 02/22/2004 9:39:29 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
Matt 9:15 And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast. .

Matt 6:16 And when you fast, be not as the hypocrites, sad. For they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

17 But thou, when thou fastest anoint thy head, and wash thy face;

18 That thou appear not to men to fast, but to thy Father who is in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret, will repay thee.

<>end of quotes<>

Tell us how you in your Church obey Jesus' command to Fast.

10 posted on 02/23/2004 2:25:57 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: The_Reader_David; St.Chuck; BlackElk; sitetest
Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,

There's dance and song and good red wine.

At least I've always found it so:

Benedicamus Domino!

(Hilaire Belloc)

I'll be polishing off a few more bottles of delicious Cabernet before Mardi Gras ends. I'll also be supping on rich meats and rich chocolate. I am even thinking of exercising my marital rights.

David, I shall walk outside tonight, face Mt. Athos, take a big sip of a full-bodied Cabernet and say "see ya in the funny papers, sucker."

Have a Blessed Lent and try and reform your ugly habit of always having to denigrate your Latin borthers as a way of elevating your Greek Communion.

All that really does is betray a lack of self-confidence.

11 posted on 02/23/2004 2:36:30 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Catholicguy
Tell us how you in your Church obey Jesus' command to Fast.

You are begging the question. I asked where in the Scriptures do you find (specifically) "Mardi Gras" amd "Lent" - you have given me verses on fasting. Those verses are true - and to answer your question, we fast when there are times of appropriate need, such as in conjunction with a time of intense prayer - but you have not answered my question.

Colossians 2:16-17 " Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a {mere} shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Again, my simple question is: where is the Scripture for "Mardi Gras" and "Lent?"

12 posted on 02/23/2004 2:41:48 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: LiteKeeper
I'm sorry. "Appropriate time" in regards fasting doesn't appear in my Bible. What version are you using?
14 posted on 02/23/2004 2:46:18 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: LiteKeeper
there is no Scriptural justification for Mardi Gras or Lent The Catholic Church does not celebrate Mardi Gras - it is simply a natural reaction (for us Westerners, anway) to a period of self denial. I have always considered the model for Lent as coming from Christ himself. He spent 40 days in the desert fasting and praying. Isn't it obvious that we as Christians should follow his lead?

I wonder why you would go to such pains to find the Catholic Church unBiblical?

15 posted on 02/23/2004 2:47:35 PM PST by old and tired (Go Toomey! Send Specter back to the Highlands!)
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To: LiteKeeper
Oops, had a little HTML error. Let me try that again.

there is no Scriptural justification for Mardi Gras or Lent

The Catholic Church does not celebrate Mardi Gras - it is simply a natural reaction (for us Westerners, anway) to a period of self denial.

I have always considered the model for Lent as coming from Christ himself. He spent 40 days in the desert fasting and praying. Isn't it obvious that we as Christians should follow his lead?

I wonder why you would go to such pains to find the Catholic Church unBiblical?

16 posted on 02/23/2004 2:49:33 PM PST by old and tired (Go Toomey! Send Specter back to the Highlands!)
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To: LiteKeeper
Colosians 2:17 refers to the Jewish distinction of clean and unclean meats and the feasts of the new moon to which false brethren wanted to subject the Colossians.
17 posted on 02/23/2004 2:49:46 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: LiteKeeper
Now, I answered your question, so, here is one for you. Outside of 2 Peter 3:15-17 (Yep, written by a Pope) name for me a New Testament citation of Scripture which refers to the New Testament.

I'll save you time. You can't. The visible Body of Christ, the Church (That's we Catholics, son) is cited 110 times in the New Testament while "Scripture" is cited 54 times.

Add that to the fact it is we Catholics who wrote the Scripture you use to try and oppose the Catholic Church and you have yourself one knotty problem which you can try to solve during Lent.

P.S. It is said fasting tends to produce clarity of thought.

Have a nice day.

18 posted on 02/23/2004 2:57:15 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: missyme
In Louisiana, bakers now put a small baby, representing the Christ Child, in the cake;

Ack!

I presume they mean a figurine of a baby

19 posted on 02/23/2004 3:02:35 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Don't try to tug at my heart strings. I have no heart and it will make me suspicious of your motives)
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To: LiteKeeper
I don't see anything in Scripture that leads me to believe these are "biblical."

I don't see anything biblical about a modem either. Best to just disconnect.

20 posted on 02/23/2004 3:04:52 PM PST by St.Chuck (Bush, the big government conservative, conserving big government.)
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To: Catholicguy
Cute - "appropriate" = especially suitable or compatible : FITTING

There are times in the life of every believer when prayer and fasting are "appropriate" - those times are not enumerated in Scripture:

Mark 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

1Cor 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

In the Mark passage, Jesus tells his disciples that there are times when they can accomplish something (in this, casting out demons) only through "prayer and fasting."

In the Corinthians passage, the Apostle Paul tells his readers that there are going to be times in the life of a married couple when they are to cease from their normal activity as a couple to devote themselves to fasting and prayer...but that is not all the time, and it certainly doesn't specify a certain "season" - but when it is appropriate.

Now, having diverted attention from the original question, where in the Scriptures are "Mardo Gras" and "Lent" identified?

21 posted on 02/23/2004 3:10:03 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: St.Chuck
I don't see anything biblical about a modem either. Best to just disconnect.

How hard can the question be? We are not discussing computers and modems, we are discussing religious activity - activity that is, if I am not mistaken, mandatory for all Roman Catholic believers (and a few Anglicans, as well) - So I am asking for Scriptural references for "Mardi Gras" and "Lent." - or is it that it is a "tradition" of the Church, without scripture justification? I don't care what your answer is, I would just like an answer. Again, how hard is that?

22 posted on 02/23/2004 3:14:06 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
I don't care what your answer is, I would just like an answer.

You got my answer. If it ain't in the bible does that mean that it is prohibited?

24 posted on 02/23/2004 3:19:04 PM PST by St.Chuck (Bush, the big government conservative, conserving big government.)
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To: Catholicguy
we Catholics who wrote the Scripture

You really don't want to go there, do you? The Gospels were written by some guys named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Many of the epistles were writtne by the Apostle Paul, others by James, Peter, and Jude. Where are the Roman Catholic authors in that group (Peter doesn't count - he never went to Rome)

And the Old Testament: Moses, Daniel, many prophets, Solomon, etc...again, no Roman Catholics in that group either.

25 posted on 02/23/2004 3:19:04 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: sandyeggo
Why in the world would you find fault with any Christian who wished to fast and pray for the 40 days prior to Easter?

Fasting and prayer are good and wonderful things. If you check church history, you will discover that Lent is not patterned after Christ's 40 days in the wilderness. But, if there is no scripture, and you think that I am opposed to something that you engage in freely and willingly, then why does the Church REQUIRE your participation?

26 posted on 02/23/2004 3:22:13 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
What do you mrean "i don't want to go there?"

It is my home :)

27 posted on 02/23/2004 3:24:29 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Catholicguy
You mean to tell me that you actually believe that the Roman Catholic Church wrote the Bible?
29 posted on 02/23/2004 3:28:28 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: sandyeggo
You need to reread Paul's Epistle to the Colossians.
30 posted on 02/23/2004 3:29:34 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
If you check church history, you will discover that Lent is not patterned after Christ's 40 days in the wilderness

Believe me, you don't wanna engage with me about Ecclesiastical and/or Liturgical History.

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Jesus gave Peter The Keys. Papa says "Fast," you have two choices.

One, obey and be in agreement with Heaven which ratifies the Popes disciplinary actions.

Two, do what you desire and oppose Papa and Heaven.

It's really all up to you; there being Free will and whatnot.

Have a nice day

31 posted on 02/23/2004 3:34:34 PM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Catholicguy
My final comment - and then I have to leave the office: You might want to check the Mystery Religions of Babylon for your sources on Lent.

And, you might want to check the Greek in the passage you quoted on Peter. There are two different words that are used for "rock" - one being the equivalent of Half Dome in Yosemite and the other a pebble...guess which one was used of Peter? There is just no credible evidence that Peter was the first Pope...it is wishful thinking, at best.

But...obviously this discussion is going nowhere...neither of us will be dissuaded...so I am going to break off this thread.

+ grace and peace to you +

33 posted on 02/23/2004 3:40:43 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
I asked where in the Scriptures do you find (specifically) "Mardi Gras" amd "Lent"

Mardi Gras is not a religious occasion, but a social custom. Catholics don't need to give you any Scriptural warrant for something that isn't part of the faith, but just something that some Catholics do. (Some Catholics like to eat steak on Sundays. Do we need Scriptural justification for that, as well?)

As for Lent, have you not read that Jesus fasted 40 days in the wilderness before beginning his public ministry? Fasting to draw closer to God is a Biblical custom. Repentance, which is the theme of Lent, is a divine command. Do I really need to show you that from the Scriptures?

34 posted on 02/23/2004 4:08:16 PM PST by Campion
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To: LiteKeeper
There are two different words that are used for "rock" - one being the equivalent of Half Dome in Yosemite and the other a pebble...guess which one was used of Peter?

This argument is false. It has been completely destroyed in a number of places, most notably in a book called Jesus, Peter, and the Keys. The word "petrus" meant pebble only in classical Greek poetry, not in the Koine Greek of the NT. And Jesus could not have said "You are 'Petra' and on this 'petra' I will build my Church" if He'd wanted to, because "Petra" has feminine gender and can't be a man's given name. He had to use "Petrus" for Peter's name, because he had to use the masculine form.

Just bad Protestant polemic resting on ignorance of the Greek language.

As for the "Babylonian Mystery religion" garbage, read Ralph Woodrow's book, "Babylon Connection". Woodrow is a Baptist who used to swallow the whole Babylonian fish. He's still a Baptist, just one who thinks critically enough to demolish stupid arguments ... a practice I would encourage you to adopt.

35 posted on 02/23/2004 4:12:05 PM PST by Campion
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To: Catholicguy
Have a good and blessed Lent. Remember self-confidence tends to go along with pride.

I, myself, am very happy, having begun Lent right today: Forgiveness Verpers, and a day of fasting ending with Great Compline with the (entire) Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete. Very sobering in its call to repentence and self-accusation.

And, since it is our custom at the start of the Great Fast: forgive me, my brother, if I have offended you.

36 posted on 02/23/2004 8:54:33 PM PST by The_Reader_David
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To: LiteKeeper
And, you might want to check the Greek in the passage you quoted on Peter. There are two different words that are used for "rock" - one being the equivalent of Half Dome in Yosemite and the other a pebble...guess which one was used of Peter

Gibson's movie will feature dialogue in Aramaic becuase that was the language of the time. It was the language Jesus spoke and Matthew was originally written in Aramaic and later translated into Greek.

The reason for your confusion lies in the fact the word used for Peter is "petros" a masculine noun while the word used for Rock is "petra" a feminine noun.

In the Aramaic language Jesus used, Jesus said, "You are Kepha (Rock) and upon this Kepha (Rock) I will build my Church.

Many Bibles still use the transliteration of Kepha, Cephas.

37 posted on 02/24/2004 2:07:18 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: The_Reader_David
I have no desire to offend you, brother. I was just reminding you your Confession is as it is and it is admirable and worthy of praise and imitation in many instances but any apologia for it, imo, tends to be weakened when it is structured as it so often is.

Any apologia for your Confession needs no apologies nor any implied denigration of your brothers.

Peace, my recalcitrant friend.

38 posted on 02/24/2004 2:13:01 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: LiteKeeper
You might want to check the Mystery Religions of Babylon for your sources on Lent.

No Thanks. I am a Christian not, as you imply, a Pagan. BTW, show me in the Bible where you are Commanded to lie about another's Faith.

Jesus' temptations

538 The Gospels speak of a time of solitude for Jesus in the desert immediately after his baptism by John. Driven by the Spirit into the desert, Jesus remains there for forty days without eating; he lives among wild beasts, and angels minister to him.241 At the end of this time Satan tempts him three times, seeking to compromise his filial attitude toward God. Jesus rebuffs these attacks, which recapitulate the temptations of Adam in Paradise and of Israel in the desert, and the devil leaves him "until an opportune time".242

539 The evangelists indicate the salvific meaning of this mysterious event: Jesus is the new Adam who remained faithful just where the first Adam had given in to temptation. Jesus fulfills Israel's vocation perfectly: in contrast to those who had once provoked God during forty years in the desert, Christ reveals himself as God's Servant, totally obedient to the divine will. In this, Jesus is the devil's conqueror: he "binds the strong man" to take back his plunder.243 Jesus' victory over the tempter in the desert anticipates victory at the Passion, the supreme act of obedience of his filial love for the Father.

540 Jesus' temptation reveals the way in which the Son of God is Messiah, contrary to the way Satan proposes to him and the way men wish to attribute to him.244 This is why Christ vanquished the Tempter for us: "For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sinning."245 By the solemn forty days of Lent the Church unites herself each year to the mystery of Jesus in the desert.

<>end of quote<>

Every single Doctrine the Christian Catholic Church Teaches is Christocentric and your ugly accusations the Church established by Jesus derives its disciplines and practices from paganism is hateful, mephitic, and unworthy of anyone claiming the name Christian.

39 posted on 02/24/2004 2:36:03 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Catholicguy
God forgives. (The traditional reply at Forgiveness Vespers.)
40 posted on 02/24/2004 5:00:21 AM PST by The_Reader_David
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To: LiteKeeper
Go and study the history of the early Church, including how the canon of Scripture was actually fixed. My Latin bretheren and I disagree on where the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is to be found since the 11th century, they claiming those in communion with the Bishop of Rome constitute it, and I and all other Orthodox holding that the other four ancient Patriarchates and those in communion with them have maintained the faith once delivered to the saints and are indeed the Mystical Body of Christ. Nonetheless, using the word as it was used by St. Ignatius of Antioch, it was indeed he katholike ekklesia, which wrote the New Testament and codified the canon of Scripture.

Really, you should pick up Jaroslav Pelikan's history of the Church (don't worry, he was a Lutheran when he wrote it, though he converted to Holy Orthodoxy subsequently). Facts are facts, and while reading Holy Scripture is most edifying, you can't know the history of the Church after the portion of the lives of the Holy Apostles recorded in the Acts and the Epistles by reading Holy Scripture.

41 posted on 02/24/2004 5:12:02 AM PST by The_Reader_David
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To: Catholicguy
show me in the Bible where you are Commanded to lie about another's Faith.

Why is a disagreement over history and doctrine called a "lie?" I am simply trying to establish the facts, and you throw stones. Who is in the wrong here? We have different presuppositions: I come from the historical position of sola scriptura - and you don't. Fair enough. Now let's move on to other discussions.

42 posted on 02/24/2004 7:12:28 AM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
The Original Heresiarch, Martin Luther, at least was honest enough to acknowledge it is only due to the Catholic Church you even have the New testament.

We are obliged to yield manythings to the Papists - that they possess the word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing about it" (Commnetary on St. john, ch 16.

WE Catholics wrote the text. We Catholics know what it menas. We Catholics have authority to explain what it means.

Have a nice day.

43 posted on 02/24/2004 8:06:41 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: The_Reader_David
Really, you should pick up Jaroslav Pelikan's history of the Church (don't worry, he was a Lutheran when he wrote it, though he converted to Holy Orthodoxy subsequently).

I was tempted to say "He is almost all the way home," but I won't :)

Now, how was that for an example of paralepsis so appropriate to our political season in America?

Remember me in your prayers, David.

44 posted on 02/24/2004 8:09:55 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Catholicguy
WE Catholics wrote the text.

Please identify the "Catholic" authors who wrote the Bible.

Thank you

45 posted on 02/24/2004 8:13:15 AM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
You need to purchase a new Bible. All the good ones publish the names of the authors of The New Testament Texts.
46 posted on 02/24/2004 8:28:23 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Catholicguy
I know all the authors' names. I am just having a hard time identifying which ones are the Roman Catholics. I see one Roman citizen - Paul...but the affiliations of the rest are alluding me.

Please assist.

47 posted on 02/24/2004 8:45:41 AM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: missyme
Fat Tuesday in Detroit area

mmmmmmmmmmm...Paczki(pronounced POONCH-ki”)Day

48 posted on 02/24/2004 2:26:20 PM PST by RckyRaCoCo (todo su país es pertenece a nosotros)
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