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A Fireside Chat with Cardinal George
myself | 8 March 2004 | myself

Posted on 03/08/2004 7:55:16 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat

I just got back from a Fireside Chat at my University Catholic Center somewhere in the archdiocese of Chicago. I thought I would share with any interested Freepers (Catholic Caucus especially), what his grace had to say and what the overall tone was.

It started out innocently enough with the Cardinal debunking the DaVinci Code and putting it in its proper perspective as a work of fiction. He seemed surprised that it has created so much furor, afterall, it is a work of fiction, though certainly he aknowledges, the enemies of the Church and Christianity at large have attached themselves to it for obvious reasons.

He touched on the Sex Abuse Scandal, diplomatically aknowledging some of the clean-up actions of the late Cardinal Bernadin. He then discussed how difficult an issue it is for him, cause it consumes 30-35% of his time, but more so, the extreme emotional difficulty that comes with hearing from the victims and dealing with the issues. He also explained how he has come to fully support Zero Tolerance, rather than therapy and possibly reministry for accussed priests, due to the recitivism rate among pedophiles. There of course, is a larger issue, that some on this forum have indentified, but he choose to avoid.

He spend the vast majority of time dealing with the aftermath of Roe v. Wade and the Gay Marriage situation. First he asked us a question, where we saw this country in 20-25 years, the general consensus was worse off in terms of traditional values. He agreed, and said it has to do with Roe v. Wade. He said prior to Roe v. Wade the American Legal system was the last great equalizer, before it even the voiceless had a voice. No longer, rather now it is used to enshrine rights, and as such, all legal discourse must use the language of rights (Right to Life) rather than the greater societal, institutional, community language prior to it. He said Gay Marriage is much the same way. Except here we have the making of a Totalitarian State. The State is now defining an institution which prior it had no business defining. Which is precisely what Totalitarian States are all about. Thus as Catholics we cannot withdraw and say, well it is there choice. Rather we must fight, and we must say, that Natural Law dictates as well as Tradition.

His most sobering comment concerned the status of the Church in twenty years. His foresees the Catholic Church being forced underground as in China (with less physical persecution). He argued that for example, a woman sues the Church to be a priest saying it is her right. She gets five justices to agree that it is a right. The Church cannot argue legally from a sacramental standpoint, because Roe v. Wade changed the argument from institutional and community to individual rights, as such the Church must argue on the basis of rights, and here has no argument. The Five justices decree women's ordination, the result is two churches. One a state sponsored Catholic Church and the other an underground Catholic Church. His actual timeframe was ten years.

He finally closed with the need for a New Evangelization to reach out to the post-Christian World, Europe and America and bring them back. To do so, one must use both Faith (Bible and Tradition) and Reason. Again arguing that it is vitally important to the Faith.

This is a brief summary as best as I can remember, it was a powerful talk, he talked for 2.5 hours.

God Bless


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: cardinalgeorge; chicago; george
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God Bless
1 posted on 03/08/2004 7:55:17 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat
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To: Salvation; NYer; AAABEST; CAtholic Family Association; Patrick Madrid; Loyalist; Desdemona; ...
Ping!! (Discussion, Reflection)
2 posted on 03/08/2004 7:57:07 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: VermiciousKnid
Ping!
3 posted on 03/08/2004 7:57:47 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: dubyaismypresident
Ping!!!!

Plus, anyone know how to put together a ping list, cause I am getting sick of trying to remember everyone's handle and forgetting people.
4 posted on 03/08/2004 7:58:59 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: NWU Army ROTC; Askel5; NYer; saradippity; livius; tiki; Romulus; american colleen; Desdemona; ...
I am floored. Thank you for posting this.

I wave my shamrock and declare this a MUST READ.

5 posted on 03/08/2004 8:12:27 PM PST by Siobhan (+Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet+)
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To: Siobhan
Cardinal George is brilliant, his anaylsis was incredible, so realistic and so scary.
6 posted on 03/08/2004 8:13:34 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: NWU Army ROTC
He argued that for example, a woman sues the Church to be a priest saying it is her right. She gets five justices to agree that it is a right. The Church cannot argue legally from a sacramental standpoint, because Roe v. Wade changed the argument from institutional and community to individual rights, as such the Church must argue on the basis of rights, and here has no argument. The Five justices decree women's ordination, the result is two churches. One a state sponsored Catholic Church and the other an underground Catholic Church. His actual timeframe was ten years.

This is a bit hysterical. I'm sure George is hacked over the California decision, where Catholic Charities must offer insurance for contraception.

If the Church continues to crawl into bed with the federal government (read: vouchers, Faith-based initiatives), and takes government money then it will have to do what the government tells it to do.

7 posted on 03/08/2004 8:14:35 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: NWU Army ROTC
This is a brief summary as best as I can remember, it was a powerful talk, he talked for 2.5 hours.
God Bless


Thank you!
BUMP
8 posted on 03/08/2004 8:21:53 PM PST by GirlShortstop (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - research and sporting life - glad to have a hat)
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To: All
He asked for your prayers as well, for The Church and for himself, that he might be better able to lead.
9 posted on 03/08/2004 8:25:41 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: NWU Army ROTC
Very nice summary, I wish I had been able to attend. It would have been nice to hear his thoughts on all of these issues that you mentioned. Now, your job is to see if you can guess who this is ;-).
10 posted on 03/08/2004 8:33:45 PM PST by Eisenhower ("A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." - Robert Frost)
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To: NWU Army ROTC
The Five justices decree women's ordination, the result is two churches. One a state sponsored Catholic Church and the other an underground Catholic Church. His actual timeframe was ten years.

There'll be riots in the streets. I can't believe it'll ever happen.

11 posted on 03/08/2004 8:36:18 PM PST by BlessedBeGod
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To: BlessedBeGod; sinkspur
Let Sinkspur help explain.

It's going to happen.
12 posted on 03/08/2004 9:31:20 PM PST by Askel5
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: sinkspur
If the Church continues to crawl into bed with the federal government (read: vouchers, Faith-based initiatives), and takes government money then it will have to do what the government tells it to do.

You have a point... but... there is this thought, "government money" is the taxpayer's money, including the Catholic taxpayer. The services provided by Catholic Charities are not limited to Catholic recepients; in fact the religious affiliation of the recipient is irrelevant. Evangelization of the recipients is branded "proselytizing" and it is a big PC "no-no."

The court has no right to impose immorality on a Catholic institution and the local Bishop should scream "FIRE!" right away. If the Bishops begin to pact tenderly with the devil they will lose big time and the whole US Church will lose big time.

The strings attached to the Catholic Charities subsidies should never compromise the faith. "You cannot serve both God and money."

14 posted on 03/08/2004 10:42:04 PM PST by heyheyhey
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To: NWU Army ROTC
The Five justices decree women's ordination, the result is two churches. One a state sponsored Catholic Church and the other an underground Catholic Church. His actual timeframe was ten years.

"It can't happen here."

I do think that's too short a timeframe. Then again, His Eminence has more connections than I do.

15 posted on 03/08/2004 11:22:39 PM PST by Dumb_Ox
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To: NWU Army ROTC
Scary prediction for the future. He's probably right.
16 posted on 03/09/2004 12:27:15 AM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: NWU Army ROTC
His most sobering comment concerned the status of the Church in twenty years. His foresees the Catholic Church being forced underground as in China (with less physical persecution).... His actual timeframe was ten years.

Bumpus ad summum

17 posted on 03/09/2004 3:25:34 AM PST by Dajjal
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To: NWU Army ROTC
Thank you for the ping. You've done a great job describing Cardinal George's discussion.

Regards,
18 posted on 03/09/2004 3:42:46 AM PST by VermiciousKnid
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To: NWU Army ROTC
Thanks. Nothing like a little optimism to start the day!
19 posted on 03/09/2004 5:06:17 AM PST by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: NWU Army ROTC
Thanks for the ping.

It will start with them yanking our tax exempt status.

20 posted on 03/09/2004 6:10:51 AM PST by NeoCaveman (New and improved is typically neither!)
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To: NWU Army ROTC
The Five justices decree women's ordination, the result is two churches. One a state sponsored Catholic Church and the other an underground Catholic Church. His actual timeframe was ten years.

A good friend of mine that is a Lutheran pastor expects that in 10 years there will be open persecution of the Christian church (yes, I am a LCMS, but I have a bad feeling that won't make much difference when it happens).

I think it will happen with gay marriage before womens ordination. What will happen in Mass. by the end of the year if a gay couple walks up to a church with a marriage license and demands they get married? How long till the state legislature demands that the churches marry gays?

It is scary to see that this wasn't just my friends own opinion. He has been working since he was ordained to set up a large number of small group Bible studies. He told me once that he is trying to build a support system for when the public church has to go underground
21 posted on 03/09/2004 6:23:20 AM PST by redgolum
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To: NWU Army ROTC; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; CAtholic Family Association; ...
His most sobering comment concerned the status of the Church in twenty years. He foresees the Catholic Church being forced underground as in China (with less physical persecution).

Sobering, indeed!


Pope John Paul The Great!

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list


22 posted on 03/09/2004 7:17:09 AM PST by NYer (Ad Jesum per Mariam)
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To: NWU Army ROTC
I believe Cardinal George is right on! If you read between the lines of every news article that deals with the Church or moral/family values, the handwriting is on the wall. The anti-Catholics (satan) are hard at work. Look at the recent $300k trashing of the church in Colorado and the desecration of what we hold dear and True. It seems to me that Catholics everywhere have to get the wagons in a circle because we are being attacked, make do mistake about it. We have to support and defend our brother and sister Catholics no matter where they are.
23 posted on 03/09/2004 7:31:54 AM PST by hardhead ('He Must Increase; I Must Decrease')
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To: Salve Regina; AKA Elena; Domestic Church; sockmonkey; ejo; eastsider; Chesterbelloc; Campion; ...
Must Read BUMP
24 posted on 03/09/2004 7:49:59 AM PST by Siobhan (+Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet+)
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: NWU Army ROTC
The Catholic Charities case stands a strong chance of reversal by the U.S. Supreme Court.

The decision proposes a set of truly perverse incentives: if a church-sponsored organization, out of profound commitment to the charitable dictates of its faith, chooses to succor all the needy, rather than merely needy congregants, and if, to further the achievement of its charitable mission, it hires those best able to do the job and gives them a prescription drug benefits, rather than hiring only the most qualified among congregants and/or having no prescription drug benefit, than it is to be punished. Although the U.S. Supreme Court's majority on these issues is hard to predict, it seems probable to me that there will be five votes to reverse and put in place some more logical outcome consistent with the First Amendment.

There isn't one vote on the U.S. Supreme Court for forcing the ordination of women. However, there are probably 3 or 4 votes for stripping a "discriminatory" church of its tax-exempt status. Cutting into the donation plate would be the least serious effect of this -- the main loss would be of the property tax exemption. The big churches and cathedrals in city centers would have millions of property taxes every year, and your typical prosperous suburb could hit the local parish with $250,000 or $300,000 a year, just based upon the acreage confused.

27 posted on 03/09/2004 8:04:25 AM PST by only1percent
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To: only1percent
The big churches and cathedrals in city centers would have millions of property taxes every year, and your typical prosperous suburb could hit the local parish with $250,000 or $300,000 a year, just based upon the acreage confused.

It'd be worth every penny to me if my pastor, and all the pastors across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania could preach from the pulpit that it is a mortal sin to vote for the baby killers Kerry and Specter.

(I am about to go over my one hour time limit and must now log off entirely for the day.)

28 posted on 03/09/2004 8:19:01 AM PST by old and tired (Go Toomey! Send Specter back to the Highlands!)
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To: NYer; dansangel
thanks for the ping sobering thoughts but more true than not. As Catholics we cannot be complacent any longer..
29 posted on 03/09/2004 8:34:35 AM PST by .45MAN (The NewTestament is Concealed in the Old, and the Old Testament is Revealed in the New)
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To: NYer
"I am keeper of the ancient flame... THOU SHALL NOT PASS!"
--Gandalf, Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, by J.R.R. Tolkein.

(elipses due to mental eclipses.)
30 posted on 03/09/2004 8:46:40 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus
They SHALL NOT Pass. Maybe I am alone in my sentiment, but I think persecution would only strengthen The Faith. Prior to A.D. 312, The Chuch produced some of its greatest theologians, doctors, apologists, bishops, and martyrs, their example and witness to the Light of Christ has really inspired generations, maybe we need that new generation of the above to inspire and witness to the Light of Christ for a new evangelization of the world.
31 posted on 03/09/2004 8:53:19 AM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: NYer; Salvation; Canticle_of_Deborah; sandyeggo; american colleen; CAtholic Family Association; ...
Defenders of the Faith Ping List!! (Torquemada was already taken) Anyway, this is just a test to see if it works, if you want on, let me know, if you want off let me know, this makes my life easier now.

God Bless
32 posted on 03/09/2004 9:00:09 AM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: NWU Army ROTC
Cardinal George is brilliant

I think I'd go with "clueless" rather than "brilliant." The problems in the US began with Roe vs. Wade? That's a very shallow analysis and not reflective of a Catholic perspective. Just to take one example, what about the "Griswold" decision to legalize contraception? If you're going to point the finger at the Supreme Court, then start there. But maybe it would be better if the bishops looked to their own culpability instead of looking elsewhere for scapegoats.

his anaylsis was incredible, so realistic and so scary

Of course, this is only a quick summary of his talk that's presented here, so maybe I'd get a different impression if I had listened to the whole talk. But to me it is just a classic case of bishops entirely lacking a supernatural perspective or faith in Christ. He sees the Church as passive victim of circumstances. His "new evangelization" is guaranteed to be an utter failure until such time as he has some supernatural reality to communicate.

33 posted on 03/09/2004 9:03:29 AM PST by Maximilian
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To: sinkspur
If the Church continues to crawl into bed with the federal government (read: vouchers, Faith-based initiatives), and takes government money then it will have to do what the government tells it to do.

Bingo. Dancing with the devil.

The Church ought to stay far away from "Faith Based Initiatives".

34 posted on 03/09/2004 9:05:26 AM PST by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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To: sinkspur
If the Church continues to crawl into bed with the federal government (read: vouchers, Faith-based initiatives), and takes government money then it will have to do what the government tells it to do.

Excellent point! Precisely correct. The decision in California was actually a good one because so-called Catholic Charities admitted in court that they did not meet the legal requirements of a religious organization. The Catholic Church will destroy the last remaining tiny vestiges of credibility it still possesses when it follows the advice of idiots like Deal Hudson and gets in bed with Republican party charity programs.

35 posted on 03/09/2004 9:06:46 AM PST by Maximilian
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To: heyheyhey; sinkspur; BlackElk
The Bishops began to lose the battle back in the 1960's, when William Bentley Ball pointed out (to Card. Krol) a number of issues over which the USCC should take legal action or face losing certain autonomies.

Much of this is detailed in E Michael Jones' book on Krol, available from Fidelity Press.

But USCC did NOT take action--and guess who was the President of USCC at the time? Why, Joseph Bernardin, Abp. of Cincinatti, that's who.
36 posted on 03/09/2004 9:13:18 AM PST by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: Maximilian
Oh Gawd, so unless you are in the direct employ of the diocese, you have no freedom of conscience? Some fine authoritarian hellhole you prescriobe!

Yes, as the law reads, Catholic Charities is not a religious organization. It is however an organization of people who are brought together out of their religious conviction and common faith. What the court should have done was throw the law out as being grossly unconstitutional:
1. Because its definition of "religious institution" is too vague
2. Because not only employees of religious institutions have first-amendment rights
3. Because the law usurps rights and authorities not legitimately controlled by the state.
4. Because the law affects areas that are not legitimate state interests.
37 posted on 03/09/2004 9:19:02 AM PST by dangus
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To: Maximilian; only1percent; BlackElk
I dunno that it started w/Griswold--and I'm not sure that "individual rights" is really the root cause.

I'd be happy to propose that legal positivism is the root cause and that the Incorporation (14th Amendment) was the proximate cause.
38 posted on 03/09/2004 9:19:21 AM PST by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: Maximilian; only1percent; BlackElk
I dunno that it started w/Griswold--and I'm not sure that "individual rights" is really the root cause.

I'd be happy to propose that legal positivism is the root cause and that the Incorporation (14th Amendment) was the proximate cause.

I think (IIRC) this is why Bork was crucified--he had proposed to migrate from positivism to natural law emphasis--which would have been an atomic bomb in the Progressive Party's lap.

pinging legal brains.
39 posted on 03/09/2004 9:20:42 AM PST by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: AAABEST
>>If the Church continues to crawl into bed with the federal government (read: vouchers, Faith-based initiatives), and takes government money then it will have to do what the government tells it to do.<<

Catholic Charities was not covered by the law because they take state funds. Although many within Catholic Charities are materialist heretics, charity is a central mission of any religion. ("True religion consists of this... to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction and to keep oneself spotless from the world"-- James 1:27)
40 posted on 03/09/2004 9:23:31 AM PST by dangus
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To: Maximilian
>>The problems in the US began with Roe vs. Wade? That's a very shallow analysis and not reflective of a Catholic perspective.<<

The article does not say that the Amchurch's problems started with Roe v. Wade, but rather talks of Roe v. Wade was a critical *LEGAL* watershed. I don't get anywhere from the article that George is talking merely of the Catholic faith, but rather of the nation's values. True, Griswold was the iceberg of bad law, but Roe v. Wade was what sits above the waterline. Griswold was bad spiritually, in Roe v. Wade, we see that spiritual illness claim the lives of tens of millions.

>>He sees the Church as passive victim of circumstances. <<

Quite the OPPOSITE of what you suppose, George talks of legal suppression of the Catholic Church, but nowhere does he seem to suggest that this will be spiritually detrimental to those who remain within it. Rather, he seems to be echoing Ratzinger who suggests that a smaller church may well be a healthier one, once rid of the heretics.
41 posted on 03/09/2004 9:30:10 AM PST by dangus
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To: Maximilian
How often do you think Cardinal George preaches about the evils of contraception? As often as he takes time to speak out against his brother bishops who promote and tolerate error.
42 posted on 03/09/2004 9:33:38 AM PST by johnb2004
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To: ninenot
I think you mean the USCCB. If so, Cardinal Bernadin was president of that throughout the 1980s and 90s, by which time he was archbishop of Chicago. I can't imagine him being head of the USCCB therefore thirty years earlier.
43 posted on 03/09/2004 9:34:24 AM PST by dangus
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To: NWU Army ROTC
I was referring to the very Gandalf-like "photo" of the Pope (whom I've always thought probably would see more Frodo in himself, if he has read Lord of the Rings.)

Persecution tests the faith of Christians, but it is nothing to be hoped for. We are to strive to bring justice to this world, and persecution is injustice in itself, and in the United States, a terrible sign of the spread of injustice in general, and in a democracy, a terrible obstacle to Christians establishing justice for others. (Not that Christ does not work through all things! If persecution does happen, then Christ will be working through it!)
44 posted on 03/09/2004 9:42:13 AM PST by dangus
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To: presidio9
*The Catholic Church does not recognize marriages outside the Church. Since no gay couoples will be getting married in a church any time soon, this is a non-issue. As far as Catholicism is concerned, there is no such thing as gay marriage, and there never will be.*

Thought I would bump you to this thread. This is a sobering 'read' of where the church is headed in "this" society.

45 posted on 03/09/2004 9:51:31 AM PST by NYer (Ad Jesum per Mariam)
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To: Maximilian
Perhaps he doesn't speak out enough, I will grant you that. But I think you also don't give him enough credit. He is not arguing for a passive victim Church, but a Church that must boldly live in the world and proclaim Christ Crucified, something that represents Hope in a world without it, something that represents Truth in a world without it. I think he would fight and die for The Church, unlike other bishops.

Sadly, he is spending a great deal of his time dealing with the aftermath of the scandal, the proble of which lies with his predecessors in the city of Chicago. At the Student Mass at the Cathedral he gave the most powerful homily I have ever heard, not the wishy-washy homily I was expecting. It was a powerful sermon on morality and Truth. The Truth as proclaimed by The Church and the duty of the Faithful to live in that Truth, to proclaim that Truth, and to understand that Truth. For an audience of many liberal touchy feel types, the homily was not what they had in mind.
46 posted on 03/09/2004 10:03:30 AM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: Religion Moderator
#47 is duplicate, please delete, God Bless.
48 posted on 03/09/2004 10:04:13 AM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: johnb2004
see post #46, true he did not speak directly on the issue, but the meaning of what he said was crystal clear.
49 posted on 03/09/2004 10:05:31 AM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: NYer
Canon law does indeed recognize marriages outside of the church -- these they call "natural" marriages. The naturally married have all of the prerogatives of the "spiritually" (in the Church) married; for example, a naturally married couple is not required to be remarried in the Church if they convert, there children are wholly legitmate (although legitimacy has no remaining significance in the U.S. or most other places).

The main practical difference is that a divorce(e) whose first marriage was outside the Church doesn't have to get an annulment to be remarried in the Church. A divorce(e) who was first married in the Church, got divorced, and then remarried outside the Church without an annulment, is subject to the various disabilities of that status, but his second marriage is still recognized as a natural (civil) marriage.

The church's view is basically that of the FMA -- marriage is the union of one man and one woman not married to other persons, so that it can't have even the status of natural marriage. It's a nullity, kind of like the union between a polygamist and his second and subsequent wives.
50 posted on 03/09/2004 10:14:32 AM PST by only1percent
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