Lesbian minister faces a church trial: Proceeding could presage a split in Methodism

Seattle Post Intelligencer ^ | 13 March 2004 | Wyatt Buchanan

[ahadams2]

Ping.

[xzins]

Only time will tell, but we will know by the middle of May if this article by the Seattle paper is just a pro-gay puff piece for Dammann or if it accurately portrays the denomination that I call home. We have our 4 year quadrenniel conference in late April/early May in Pittsburgh. I expect that denominational conference to STRONGLY support our orthodox position that homosexuality is a sin and that our ministers must not be homosexuals.

I say that this article's characterization of the denomination as split into "progressive" and "conservative" camps based in the north and south entirely misses the mark. I say the denomination is, instead, split into orthodox and ultra-liberal with only 2 western conferences and pieces of the northeast and north central supporting that ultra-liberal, non-Christian position. (Interestingly, the number of methodists in our western conferences is very low and nowhere near the number of our smaller conferences in the central and south.)

There is so much left out of this article that should be included. However, let me suggest that there are errors in this article.

She was raised Roman Catholic and from childhood had wanted to become a priest. She studied theology in college, earned a master's degree and began work in the campus ministry at Seattle University. She also served as a chaplain for the Army Reserves and worked for the archdiocese.

The above indicates that she was a "catholic" chaplain in the Army Reserves. I am a retired Army chaplain, and I know that to be an outright lie or an ignorant mistake.

There is ABSOLUTELY no such thing as a female Catholic priest, and there is ABSOLUTELY no Catholic chaplain who is not a fully ordained, Catholic priest. It is entirely in opposition to the standards of the Army Chaplaincy to have ANY chaplain who is not fully acceptable and ordained by the sending denomination. There is no way that the Catholics COULD "send" a female priest.

If this article will make this egregious kind of misrepresentation about this point, then what else will it misrepresent?

Finally, I have been told that "Dammann" is not this woman's original name, but is instead a name that she adopted. I will see if I can find a reference for that.

Dam Mann -- if true, it says a lot about what is going on here.

[ahadams2]

I'll be interested to see what your research shows concerning the individual in question. BTW: how big are your conferences? My impression is that they are significantly bigger than an Anglican diocese (or for that matter an RC diocese) - is there a diocesan level equivalent? just curious...

[xzins]

We are geographically larger, but not necessarily larger in number of adherents.

For example, I'm in the west Ohio conference that covers half of Ohio. Our bishop presides over approximately 1500 churches and roughly 300,000+ regular members.

Is that significantly different in size than a diocese?

[GeronL]

this article's characterization of the denomination as split into "progressive" and "conservative" camps based in the north and south

The article also compared it to slavery, wasn't it subtle??

[xzins]

The article also compared it to slavery, wasn't it subtle??

Their bias is so evident in their sliming of the orthodox position.

[GeronL]

North, South, Slavery....

I'm pretty sure most people could see right through that.

[aikido7]

Silliness. Confused disbelief, but mainly--silliness.

A Methodist and child of the South, I remember well the undercurrents of the slave trade. Definitely separate, definitely unequal. Like ancient Hebrew "purity codes"--the ones Jesus was able to break beyond.

"Certain things" do not "belong" with "certain other things." Imagine the social fear of a harmless but pervasive purity code rule that is unquestioned (Why, for instance, is it allright to swallow one's own saliva only when it is IN the mouth to begin with?). Forget about whatever is actually occuring in true, common-sense reality--that is just (eeeww) GROSS.

Purity--racial and sexual. Don't mix the races and don't let that primitve sexual out-of-boundedness contaminate our white world. Just look at the African dancers, the rhythm of rap music or anywhere where the "blacks dance better than whites" is displayed. Watch our white women!

The West and its Enlightenment's primacy of mind fears the ancient wisdom of the body. There's surface envy from the Caucasian and buried rage. And rage is always a cover for fear. Fear the body, fear sexuality, fear the Other.

Not yet, my Lord. No WAY we are yet ready to love others as ourselves.

Myself included.

[xzins]

????

[ahadams2]

That's eight to ten times the size of one of our dioceses, at least as far as membership is concerned - I've heard of a few dioceses in the Global South which were in the neighborhood of 20,000 to 30,000 confirmed members but those are considered unusual. Part of this may be due to theological differences - for instance only our bishops are allowed to confirm members, so confirmation tends to be a once a year event.

Before the ecusa bishop of Virginia joined the heretics, even though he had two assistant bishops, he averaged one Sunday per year when he could actually attend his home parish - otherwise he was on the road every weekend, and so was at least one of the assistants. I remember an interview a retiring bishop and his wife gave a few years ago in which the bishop's wife answered that one of the things she looked forward to the most was being able to go to the same church every Sunday!:-)

[dangus]

The United Methodist church has about 4 times more members (8.3 M) than the Episcopal Church, USA (2M). And there are several other Methodist churches: Southern Methodist, AME, AME Zion, etc. However, the global Anglican communion has far more members than the various Methodist churches combined. Given the large geographical areas covered by each UM diocese, there must be far more parishioners per diocese.

[dangus]

I would think the reference was to the (obviously) southern based Southern Methodists versus the (northern) United Methodists and the black AME and AME Zion churches, but she seems to be indicating a split within the United Methodist church.

A funny thing was Bush is Methodist, but since the UM churches in the DC area were so patently hateful, he had to go to AME churches.

[HarleyD]

My wife attended a Methodist service a couple of months ago. She reported that she never heard our Lord Jesus' name mentioned once. Not in prayer, sermon or song.

Of course, it was one church and it may be the very liberal area we live in. Still it is a sad commentary.

[RonF]

Umm ... The fact that she had a kid out of wedlock didn't bother anyone?

[ahadams2]

that's entirely possible - however I don't think you'll find conditions identical to that throughout the UMC...in a way the UMC reminds me of ecusa in that one cannot assume anything when one visits an unknown parish.

[Vernon]

Methodist Churches run the gamut from "high church" very formal, to traditional, to charisatic. It depends on the church in what area.

[xzins]

I am an elder in the UMC. I guarantee that had your wife come to the church I pastor that she would have heard the name of Jesus....but not just me.

MOST United Methodists strongly desire to continue in the tradition of historic Christianity. We have a few wayward conferences and bishops and no easy mechanism for getting them in line. We are not a hierarchical church but are a connectional church.

[HarleyD]

Please don't take this as a slam against UM. We happen to live in a very liberal area and it took us 10 years to find a decent church-alas, a Southern Baptist. We're Calvinists in Baptist clothing. :O)

Sadly I think this is happening in many of the churches today of all denominations. The Barna reports which studies religious trends confirms this.

[drstevej]

***MOST United Methodists strongly desire to continue in the tradition of historic Christianity. We have a few wayward conferences and bishops and no easy mechanism for getting them in line. We are not a hierarchical church but are a connectional church***

Then why is the UMC still in the National Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches?