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New rules on the Holy Eucharist on Holy Thursday
Catholic Herald ^ | 03/15/2004 | Luke Coppen

Posted on 03/15/2004 11:54:15 AM PST by lrslattery

The Vatican will publish strict new norms on the Eucharist next month, permanently changing the way Mass is celebrated throughout the world.

The Pope has authorised the publication of the norms on Holy Thursday, April 8, a year after his landmark encyclical on the Eucharist.

The final draft of the document, which is now being translated from Latin, will be a carefully edited version of the draft text leaked last September. The draft, which discouraged the reception of communion in both kinds and limited the role of altar girls, provoked an angry reaction from bishops in the English-speaking world.

After intensive episcopal lobbying, the Vatican is understood to have simplified the document and moderated some of the more controversial proscriptions.

The Catholic Herald has learned that the new norms will address some of the most divisive liturgical issues in the Catholic Church today. A source close to the Vatican said the document was part of a drive to "solemnise" the celebration of Mass and to counter a perceived lack of reverence for the Eucharist among Catholics.

It is also likely to challenge the view that the Second Vatican Council gave local bishops the authority to adapt the liturgy. It will also emphasise that Rome must guarantee the universality of the Mass.


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: eucharist; liturgy; vatican
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1 posted on 03/15/2004 11:54:16 AM PST by lrslattery
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To: lrslattery
***"A source close to the Vatican said the document was part of a drive to "solemnise" the celebration of Mass and to counter a perceived lack of reverence for the Eucharist among Catholics."****

Yes, I am tired of seeing teenagers chomping on gum while recieving. And the lack of reverence after the concentration when leaning over two pews to shake hands.

And the hundreds who go to communion without knowing what a sin is or been to confession in a year.

2 posted on 03/15/2004 12:12:41 PM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed. Pray for our own souls to receive the grace of a happy)
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To: franky
bump for later
3 posted on 03/15/2004 12:17:05 PM PST by el_chupacabra (I'm glad you were born.)
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To: lrslattery
The presence of "girl altar boys" is an attack on the priesthood.
4 posted on 03/15/2004 12:17:32 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: B Knotts
The presence of "girl altar boys" is an attack on the priesthood.

Pushed by the Weaklands and Hubba Hubba Hubbards of the world.

5 posted on 03/15/2004 12:18:50 PM PST by NeoCaveman (Hey John F'in. Kerry, why the long face?)
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To: dubyaismypresident
I think too many people buy into the idea that the use of girl altar boys is merely about "inclusiveness."

It is, but in a much more fundamental way: it is pushed by those who would like to see a laity-run Church, with an eliminated, or at least, greatly reduced priesthood.

6 posted on 03/15/2004 12:23:17 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: lrslattery
I hope it will end the practice of applause during Mass. Too often our priest encourages it, like "let's give a hand to show our support of the newly baptized baby", or "let's applaud the choir." Yesterday I attended Mass in another diocese and the parishoners broke into spontaneous applause at the end of Mass, like "good show!"
7 posted on 03/15/2004 12:53:30 PM PST by k omalley
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To: lrslattery
It is also likely to challenge the view that the Second Vatican Council gave local bishops the authority to adapt the liturgy. It will also emphasise that Rome must guarantee the universality of the Mass.

GOOD!
8 posted on 03/15/2004 12:53:59 PM PST by johnb2004
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To: k omalley
It's all part of the celebration of self. It is as if the Church exists to celebrate man.
9 posted on 03/15/2004 12:55:31 PM PST by johnb2004
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To: k omalley
Yesterday I attended Mass in another diocese and the parishoners broke into spontaneous applause at the end of Mass, like "good show!"

But we can still do the wave after a particularly good sermon, right?

Just kidding.

10 posted on 03/15/2004 12:56:41 PM PST by NeoCaveman (Hey John F'in. Kerry, why the long face?)
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To: johnb2004
It's all part of the celebration of self. It is as if the Church exists to celebrate man.

We have seen the golden calf in the temple and it is us.

11 posted on 03/15/2004 12:57:40 PM PST by NeoCaveman (Hey John F'in. Kerry, why the long face?)
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To: johnb2004
It is also likely to challenge the view that the Second Vatican Council gave local bishops the authority to adapt the liturgy.

And where exactly is it in the docs of the Second Vatican Council?

"No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority." [ Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, nos. 22, 3.]

12 posted on 03/15/2004 12:58:57 PM PST by heyheyhey
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To: heyheyhey
You are much too preVatican II. You should be holding hands and singing a Cat Stevens tune.
13 posted on 03/15/2004 1:05:14 PM PST by johnb2004
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To: dubyaismypresident
The priest at my parish wears a Madonna headset. He truly is an M.C.
14 posted on 03/15/2004 1:08:43 PM PST by johnb2004
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To: johnb2004
Cat is a Muslim; I am a Roman Catholic and in love with my Church. :-D
15 posted on 03/15/2004 1:11:34 PM PST by heyheyhey
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To: johnb2004
The priest at my parish wears a Madonna headset. He truly is an M.C.

I was over at the folks for a weekend, and at this parish the priest walked around during the sermon like Phil Donahue. I kept expecting him to take questions from the studio audience or from callers.

16 posted on 03/15/2004 1:16:34 PM PST by NeoCaveman (Hey John F'in. Kerry, why the long face?)
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To: dubyaismypresident
the priest walked around during the sermon like Phil Donahue

Whatever happened to the ambo? The "progressives" used to say, the "altar" of the Word of God. ;)

17 posted on 03/15/2004 1:28:27 PM PST by heyheyhey
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To: k omalley
Yesterday I attended Mass in another diocese and the parishoners broke into spontaneous applause at the end of Mass, like "good show!"

Really??? Some people stayed until the end... I normally see people executing the "eucharistic departure." Gather up your stuff, get in line for eucharist, get the eucharist, head out the back door!

18 posted on 03/15/2004 1:41:27 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: johnb2004
The priest at my parish wears a Madonna headset. He truly is an M.C.

Could be worse.....he could wear her pointy, metal brassiere.....

19 posted on 03/15/2004 1:43:18 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: lrslattery
Any Details?
20 posted on 03/15/2004 1:48:26 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: Onelifetogive
Really??? Some people stayed until the end... I normally see people executing the "eucharistic departure." Gather up your stuff, get in line for eucharist, get the eucharist, head out the back door!

Really?? So you're attending Mass regularly now?

21 posted on 03/15/2004 1:48:29 PM PST by conservonator (If it makes you feel better, imagine that all my posts have the </sarcasm> tag at the end.)
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To: conservonator
Really?? So you're attending Mass regularly now?

It happens....In-laws and all!

22 posted on 03/15/2004 1:49:56 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: conservonator
Really?? So you're attending Mass regularly now?

Are you claiming that there's no such thing as the "eucharistic evacuation"???

23 posted on 03/15/2004 1:51:28 PM PST by Onelifetogive
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To: Onelifetogive
Are you claiming that there's no such thing as the "eucharistic evacuation"???

A handful of people hardly constitute an evacuation. Also, the improper actions of the few do not detract from the proper actions of the many.

24 posted on 03/15/2004 1:54:52 PM PST by conservonator (If it makes you feel better, imagine that all my posts have the </sarcasm> tag at the end.)
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To: Onelifetogive
Really??? Some people stayed until the end... I normally see people executing the "eucharistic departure." Gather up your stuff, get in line for eucharist, get the eucharist, head out the back door!

You do know who started this trend don't you?

It was Judas, who left immediately after Holy Communion at the very First Mass. He had serious business to take care of.

25 posted on 03/15/2004 2:06:11 PM PST by m4629
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To: NWU Army ROTC; All
I have seen no details yet, but surely someone will leak something...maybe..

I'm curious if anyone else has heard or read anything?
26 posted on 03/15/2004 2:06:18 PM PST by lrslattery (Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam - http://slatts.blogspot.com)
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To: m4629
You do know who started this trend don't you? It was Judas, who left immediately after Holy Communion at the very First Mass. He had serious business to take care of.

This is good, never heard it before! Do you mind if I 'borrow" it?

27 posted on 03/15/2004 2:08:34 PM PST by lrslattery (Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam - http://slatts.blogspot.com)
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To: dubyaismypresident
We have seen the golden calf in the temple and it is us.

Every once in a while a quote comes along which belongs in the FR Catholic Caucus Hall of Fame. This is one.

28 posted on 03/15/2004 2:10:14 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: lrslattery
My pleasure. Thank you.
29 posted on 03/15/2004 2:11:02 PM PST by m4629
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To: m4629
That's great!

I'm going to use that one...
30 posted on 03/15/2004 2:16:38 PM PST by Tuco Ramirez (Ideas have consequences.)
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: Canticle_of_Deborah
We have seen the golden calf in the temple and it is us.

Every once in a while a quote comes along which belongs in the FR Catholic Caucus Hall of Fame. This is one.

Thanks.

32 posted on 03/15/2004 2:48:56 PM PST by NeoCaveman (Hey John F'in. Kerry, why the long face?)
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To: m4629
It was Judas, who left immediately after Holy Communion at the very First Mass. He had serious business to take care of.

ROTFL!

33 posted on 03/15/2004 3:05:08 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
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To: Onelifetogive
"I normally see people executing the "eucharistic departure." "

Well, if they know that "spontaneous applause" is about to erupt, I can't honestly blame them!
34 posted on 03/15/2004 3:11:48 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: lrslattery
**A source close to the Vatican said the document was part of a drive to "solemnise" the celebration of Mass and to counter a perceived lack of reverence for the Eucharist among Catholics.**

This is looking good to me.
35 posted on 03/15/2004 3:12:21 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Onelifetogive
"Could be worse.....he could wear her pointy, metal brassiere....."

That's for later when he's got his queer eye in - in private.
36 posted on 03/15/2004 3:13:57 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: k omalley; Desdemona; ninenot
**Yesterday I attended Mass in another diocese and the parishoners broke into spontaneous applause at the end of Mass, like "good show!" **

This happens for the choir at one Mass at our church. They are now singing a heritage hymmn at the end of Mass. "Holy, Holy, Holy" this last Sunday. Because I need to be in the vestibule I am usually following the priest out from wherever I am sitting.

If I hear people clapping now, I speak up and verbally say "No clapping during Lent."

Get the complaint to the pastoral council of your (or that) church. Things are starting to happen at my church because the pastoral council has harped to the priest about this for over a year.

But keep us in your prayers. Singing in a choir is not about a performance; it's about serving as a minister during the Mass.

Pinging some choir members.
37 posted on 03/15/2004 3:17:06 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: dubyaismypresident
the priest walked around during the sermon like Phil Donahue.

When I had stopped being a Baptist, and was casting about for were I was to go, the tenor of the Masses I attended definitely turned me off. I had begun to suspect the Real Presence was the real deal. So, I was pretty scandalized when, after the Consecration, the priest left the altar to work the crowd during the meet and greet.

I thank God that He vouchsafed me to find the Orthodox Church, where worship meet to the Creator is still offered.

38 posted on 03/15/2004 3:19:42 PM PST by don-o
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To: Salvation
If I hear people clapping now, I speak up and verbally say "No clapping during Lent.

AXIOS!

You are a man or woman after my own heart!

39 posted on 03/15/2004 3:22:12 PM PST by don-o
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To: Tantumergo
**Well, if they know that "spontaneous applause" is about to erupt, I can't honestly blame them!**

We have a lady and her teenage son who absolutely hate the applause at the end of our contemporary choir Mass. This is exactly what they do!
40 posted on 03/15/2004 3:22:47 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: don-o
My 38 is not a flame, nor an invitation to a debate. The East West division is just plain bad all the way around. But, I cannot see unity returning short of serious persecution.
41 posted on 03/15/2004 3:24:48 PM PST by don-o
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To: heyheyhey
>>>It is also likely to challenge the view that the Second Vatican Council gave local bishops the authority to adapt the liturgy.

And where exactly is it in the docs of the Second Vatican Council?

Right here: (Sacrosanctum Concilium)

30. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes.
And here:
36. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used;
And here:
37. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples' way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit.

42 posted on 03/15/2004 3:28:14 PM PST by Maximilian
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To: don-o
"But, I cannot see unity returning short of serious persecution."

Funny you should say that...why do you think God made muslims?

;)
43 posted on 03/15/2004 3:30:14 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: don-o
Woman!

And the clapping is starting to die down! But I think it is more the heritage music.
44 posted on 03/15/2004 3:42:28 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: B Knotts; dubyaismypresident
The presence of "girl altar boys" is an attack on the priesthood.

Pushed by the Weaklands and Hubba Hubba Hubbards of the world.

I think too many people buy into the idea that the use of girl altar boys is merely about "inclusiveness."

It is, but in a much more fundamental way: it is pushed by those who would like to see a laity-run Church, with an eliminated, or at least, greatly reduced priesthood.

Much to the detriment of the boys, who are dropping out. Inclusiveness is so useful to the weaklands et al. It can mean more laity. It also, by inference, means more women all over the altar. In the words of the schismatic priest who implemented so many changes into our parish against direct orders of our liberal Bishop, "It gets us used to seeing women on the altar, paving the way for women priests". He took out the tabernacle, got his 'goal' of women on the altar vis a vis EEM's and altar girls, (citing the Vatican when they agree with the Vatican,) abolished (later reinstated) Eucharistic Adoration, the Rosary and weekly confession (yes, he routinely used communal confession), openly mocked his boss, our Pastor. He also said he didn't care if he were reprimanded or moved, the door to change had been opened and there was no going back. He was right. A dozen years later, the most grievous changes were fixed - sort of. Rosary is back, but not before every mass, only on Tuesday evenings. Adoration is back, but only every First Saturday. The Stations of the Cross are celebrated twice during Lent. You get the idea. And lay groups abound. From the reports of some here on FR, my parish is now 'normal'.

I teach Religious Ed. So many parents of boys would not even consider encouraging their sons to consider the priesthood. But many among the EEM's and the many lay groups and these parents - and most of them are women - demand a voice in running the parish (and get it) and openly discuss the 'day when women can be Priests.' Only a few of us disagree.

45 posted on 03/15/2004 3:56:22 PM PST by fortunecookie
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; dubyaismypresident
We have seen the golden calf in the temple and it is us.

Ooh, that is a good one. I will be using that one.

46 posted on 03/15/2004 3:58:02 PM PST by fortunecookie
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To: Salvation
"Singing in a choir is not about a performance"

This just drives me crazy. I'm not singing for applause. Singing in the choir is about worship. Everytime the people think the choir has sung a hymn particularly well they applaud. When did this foolishness start and who started it? It never happened pre-VII, at least not that I'm aware of. Perhaps I will speak to our younger priest. I get the feeling that he doesn't appreciate applause in church.
47 posted on 03/15/2004 4:24:44 PM PST by k omalley
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To: Salvation
Singing in a choir is not about a performance;

Especially when you're at a funeral.

I don't mind acknowledging the work that goes into a particularly long haul or big celebration (say on Easter after the choir has done the full Triduum), but on a weekly basis, no. I will admit to having been acknowledged more than once from the altar, and knowing that it moved the priest made me feel good, but next Sunday is a totally different thing.

In the meantime, I am anxious to see what the strict guidelines will be...
48 posted on 03/15/2004 4:31:47 PM PST by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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To: Desdemona
I am anxious to see what the strict guidelines will be...

They will be guidelines. Rome has already sent the signal that there will be no restrictions on Communion under both kinds, or altar girls, or, likely, applause (the Pope gets applauded in St. Peter's, during the liturgy).

49 posted on 03/15/2004 4:40:42 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: lrslattery
Back on January 7 Catholic World News had this to say about the new norms:
A long-awaited new document on the Eucharist, delayed by high-level disagreements within the Vatican, will soon be made public. The document will not contain any striking innovations, CWN has learned.

The new document, which was promised by Pope John Paul II when he released his encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia in April 2003, has been expected for several months. In September, the Italian monthly Jesus published what it claimed was the text of a draft version of the document, and reported that the draft had been rejected because it was deemed excessively conservative.

Several subsequent drafts have also met opposition, according to Vatican sources. The editors of the document-- which has been prepared primarly by the Congregation for Divine Worship-- were reportedly under heavy pressure to avoid causing controversy by taking positions that would be judged as extreme. The final document will avoid that danger by confining itself to a repetition of previous Vatican statements and standards. In effect, informed sources report, the new document will be a distilled version of the liturgical norms already published in the General Instructions for the Roman Missal.

In Ecclesia de Eucharistia, Pope John Paul had said that the new document would provide juridical norms regarding the celebration of the Eucharist. The purpose of the document, Vatican officials disclosed at the time, was to curtail liturgical abuse-- a problem that was viewed by the Holy See with grave concern.

In December 2003, the influential Jesuit journal Civilta Cattolica provided an insight into the current thinking of Vatican officials, in an article on the liturgical renewals since Vatican II. (Civilta Cattolica is generally seen as reflecting the views of Vatican officials, since all articles in the magazine are cleared in advance by the Secretariat of State.) The article condemned liturgical abuses and unauthorized innovations, but cautioned against responding to the abuse with new regulations.

"From an excessively rigid framework, we have passed over to an excessive freedom," the Civilta Cattolica article argued. The article spoke of "spontaneity without restraints" in liturgical celebrations. But it also warned against "a nostalgic return to formalism." The Jesuit journal made the argument that "abuses are best regulated not by reprimands," but by proper instruction and formation in proper liturgical celebration.


50 posted on 03/15/2004 5:15:38 PM PST by cebadams (Amice, ad quid venisti? (Friend, whereto art thou come?))
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