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The "Passion" According to Isaiah
CBS News ^ | March 1st.2004 | Efraim Goldstein

Posted on 03/16/2004 5:02:53 PM PST by missyme

"One Jewish scholar, Claude Montefiore, explained: 'Because of the christological interpretation given to the chapter [Isaiah 53] by Christians it is omitted from the series of prophetical lessons for the Deuteronomy Sabbaths … the omission is deliberate and striking.' Why is the omission so striking? We've left out a portion from our own prophets, ostensibly because of what Christians think about it."

Isaiah 53 is a well-known passage of Scripture to the avid student of the Bible. But most people are not avid Bible students and have not read this controversial passage. A recent informal survey illustrates this point.(1) One hundred Jews on the streets of Tel Aviv were asked, "Who do you think the 53rd chapter of Isaiah describes?" Most were unfamiliar with the passage and were asked to read it before answering. After doing so, many conceded that they did not know to whom it referred.

Some thought it was Jesus, but when it sunk in that the passage was a citation from the Tenach, they were put off. Others shrugged off the passage as too difficult to understand.

Some repeated what they had heard from Jews more religious than themselves: that it referred to the Jewish people or perhaps even the gentile nations. All seemed to think that whomever it referred to, it wouldn't make much difference in their daily lives.

Israel is unique inasmuch as it is probably the only place on earth where you can spend a couple of hours on a public street and be assured of getting one hundred Jewish opinions. (Not that our people outside of Israel are adverse to giving opinions, it's just difficult to find such a high concentration of us in any one place.) But Israel is not unique when it comes to the Jewish response to Isaiah 53. There is really no consensus based on personal knowledge of the passage. People either have not read it or they have accepted a status quo interpretation, or both.

One might think the passage is obscure and irrelevant based on the fact that so many people are unfamiliar with it. That unfamiliarity in part stems from the fact that Isaiah 53 does not appear in the regular synagogue calendar readings. Yet it could be argued that the very fact that it is left out shouts out the importance of this passage. Even the reasons for omitting it point to the uniqueness of this passage. For example, one Jewish scholar, Claude Montefiore, explained: "Because of the christological interpretation given to the chapter by Christians it is omitted from the series of prophetical lessons for the Deuteronomy Sabbaths … the omission is deliberate and striking."(2)

Why is the omission so striking? Because when we finish the cycle of readings for the year, we haven't really finished it. We've left out a portion from our own prophets, ostensibly because of what Christians think about it. Since when does the Christian interpretation of Jewish Scripture have a bearing on what is or is not read in synagogues all over the world?

The omission is striking because of what Montefiore does not quite say. It is not simply because of the Christian interpretation that the Isaiah passage is omitted. After all, the services from which it is omitted are not for Christian ears. They are for Jews. What does that imply? The problem is not what Christians think of the passage. The problem (according to those who omitted the passage) is what Jews might think.

This portion of Scripture is highly controversial. Because contrary to what those surveyed felt, many people have looked into the questions this passage poses and have found that the answers are extremely relevant to their own lives. Are you ready to know why?

If you are willing to explore this "obscure" passage, see the inset below.

Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment, he was taken away.

And who can speak of his descendants?

For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will jusitfy many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 52:13-53:12)

Those words were written over 2700 years ago. Yet many people who read them today find that the words seem to jump off the page. If nothing else, the chapter is packed with incredible drama, heroics and pathos. But many people find a personal challenge in these words that is interwoven with the questions: who is this person and what in the world was he doing?

They are questions worth considering for oneself, but it may also be helpful to see the progression of opinions given by our rabbis.

What do the early rabbis say?

Some of the first written interpretations or targums (ancient paraphrases on biblical texts) see this passage as referring to an individual servant, the Messiah, who would suffer. Messianic Jewish talmudist, Rachmiel Frydland, recounts those early views:(3)

"Our ancient commentators with one accord noted that the context clearly speaks of God's Anointed One, the Messiah. The Aramaic translation of this chapter, ascribed to Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel who lived early in the second century c.e., begins with the simple and worthy words:

'Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum).'"

"We find the same interpretation in the Babylonian Talmud:

What is his [the Messiah's] name? The Rabbis said: His name is "the leper scholar," as it is written, "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted." (Sanhedrin 98b)

"Similarly, in an explanation of Ruth 2:14 in the Midrash Rabbah it states:

He is speaking of the King Messiah: "Come hither" draw near to the throne "and dip thy morsel in the vinegar," this refers to the chastisements, as it is said, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities."

"The Zohar, in its interpretation of Isaiah 53, points to the Messiah as well:

There is in the Garden of Eden a palace named the Palace of the Sons of Sickness. This palace the Messiah enters, and He summons every pain and every chastisement of Israel. All of these come and rest upon Him. And had He not thus lightened them upon Himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel's chastisements for the trangression of the law; as it is written, "Surely our sicknesses he has carried." (Zohar II, 212a)

The early sages expected a personal Messiah to fulfill the Isaiah prophecy. No alternative interpretation was applied to this passage until the Middle Ages. And then, a completely different view was presented. This view was popularized by Jewish commentator Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Itzchaki), who lived one thousand years after Jesus.

Views on Isaiah 53 in the Middle Ages

Rashi held the position that the servant passages of Isaiah referred to the collective fate of the nation of Israel rather than a personal Messiah. Some rabbis, such as Ibn Ezra and Kimchi, agreed. However, many other rabbinic sages during this same period and later—including Maimonides—realized the inconsistencies of Rashi's views and would not abandon the original messianic interpretations.

The objections these rabbis put forth to Rashi's view were threefold: First, they showed the consensus of ancient opinion. Second, they pointed out that the text is grammatically in the singular tense throughout. For example, "He was despised and rejected…he was pierced for our transgressions…he was led like a lamb to the slaughter," and so on.

Third, they noted verse 8 of chapter 53. This verse presents some difficulty to those who interpret this passage as referring to Israel. It reads:

By oppression and judgment, he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

Were the Jewish people, God forbid, ever "cut off from the land of the living"? No! God promises that Israel will live forever:

"Only if these decrees [the sun to shine by day, the moon and stars to shine by night, etc.] vanish from my sight," declares the Lord, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." (Jeremiah 31:36)

Likewise, it is impossible to say that "for the transgression of my people he was stricken" since "my people" clearly means the Jewish people. If verse 8 refers to Israel, then are we to read that Israel is stricken for Israel because of Israel's sin? How can the sin-bearer and the sinner be the same? Likewise, how can Israel be the servant, the one who "had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth" (Isaiah 53:9)? Israel is not now, nor ever has been, without sin—the Scriptures are replete with examples of Israel's disobedience.

All of these inconsistencies troubled many rabbis and they expressed their opinions of Rashi's view in no uncertain terms. Rabbi Moshe Kohen Iben Crispin of Cordova, who lived in the fourteenth century, said of the Israel as servant interpretation, it "distorts the passage from its natural meaning" and that Isaiah 53 "was given of God as a description of the Messiah, whereby, when any should claim to be the Messiah, to judge by the resemblance or non-resemblance to it whether he were the Messiah or not." (4)


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1 posted on 03/16/2004 5:02:53 PM PST by missyme
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To: missyme
CBN News, not CBS
2 posted on 03/16/2004 5:11:27 PM PST by ambrose ("John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands" - Lt. Col. Oliver North)
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To: ambrose
Thank You..my mistake
3 posted on 03/16/2004 5:16:44 PM PST by missyme
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To: All
ISAIAH PREDICTED THAT THE SERVANT… 700 YEARS LATER, Y'SHUA…
would be disfigured by suffering
(52:14; 53:2-3) was struck, spat on and mocked (Mark 15:17-19)
would come from humble beginnings
(53:2) grew up in Nazareth, a city with a very (53:2) poor reputation; and not where the Messiah was expected to come from (Luke 2:39-40, 51)
would be rejected by many
(53:1,3) while on the cross, was mocked, blasphemed and reviled, even by those who were crucified with him (Matthew 27:39-44)
would bear our sins and suffer in our place (53:4-6,11) "…himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." (1 Peter 2:24)
would heal many (53:4-5) healed many (Matthew 8:16-17)
voluntarily took our punishment upon himself (53:6-7) said, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep" (John 10:11)
remained silent during his suffering (53:7) did not defend himself to Herod, Pontius Pilate or the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26:62-64; 27:11-14; Luke 23:9)
would die (53:8,12) died on a cross (Mark 15:37; John 19:33-34)
would be buried with a rich man (53:9) was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man (Matthew 27:57-60)
would not remain dead, but see his seed, prolong his days and be exalted (53:10-11) rose from the dead three days after the crucifixion and still lives today and millions of people see themselves as his spiritual seed (Matthew 28:1-10)

4 posted on 03/16/2004 5:23:33 PM PST by missyme
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To: missyme; Dog Gone
Isaiah is breathtaking, it makes my head tingle every time I read it. As someone with a scientific mind, the prophecy in the bible really gets to me.

People have said that the case for Jesus can't be made logically, but that's exactly what does it for me. The impossible, mind blowing logic.

I remember some scientific study was done regarding Christ actually fulfilling all of the prophecy regarding him, the odds were astronomical. Numerically impossible in fact.

The prophesy continued and continues:

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations: and then shall the consummation come.

Christians the world over adore their Messiah, the one who changed everything, including how we count time. That in itself is miraculous.

It's enough to make you sing His praises and lift His blessed name to the highest.

5 posted on 03/16/2004 6:21:30 PM PST by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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To: AAABEST
People have said that the case for Jesus can't be made logically, but that's exactly what does it for me. The impossible, mind blowing logic.

Really?

Since the men writing the New Testament already had the benefit of knowing the prophecies of the Tanakh, it isn't surprising that their chosen Messiah is written to have fulfilled the prophecies.

You believe that the NT was the inspired word of God, not of men simply making things up as they went along. That's a matter of Faith, not logic.

6 posted on 03/16/2004 6:29:18 PM PST by ambrose ("John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands" - Lt. Col. Oliver North)
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To: AAABEST
There's no question that this passage in Isaiah is referring to a literal messiah. To argue otherwise is to dispute whether the Jews believed in an upcoming messiah at all, which they most certainly did.

While I believe this, it still does not help me understand the logic behind the Plan of Salvation. And it's not because it hasn't been explained to me. I went to private, parochial schools until I began post-graduate studies.

You've tried to give me a better explanation, but it either doesn't make sense or hasn't sunk into my thick head.

Let me make an analogy that I hope you don't think is sacreligious or flippant, because that's not how I intend it in the slightest.

I'm the Grandad and my grandkids do some bad stuff. I'm willing to forgive them, but in order for me to really forgive them, they have to round up some animals and stab them. Then, my own son has to be tortured to death.

After that, being sorry is enough.

I can certainly understand the wisdom of God in the form of Jesus coming to earth to lead an example and to teach, but transferred bloodshed, where you can put your sins on an animal or another human, or why you'd even have to, are still puzzle to me.

And I hope you don't say that it's because I've never had a real zeal for religion or a personal relationship with Christ or God. I started college as a theology major, but I couldn't get my questions answered.

7 posted on 03/16/2004 6:50:44 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone
I think you bring up some god questions, but I think since G-d gave us free will that brought up how G-d could relate to us.
In the creation of Man, G-d created everything good, the world, the animals, the enviroment was pure, since we made a choice to "Sin" G-d has been IMO letting us live by a lesson a lesson we could understand, so that we could enable ourselves to make Peace with G-d,and ask G-d for sincere forgiveness for not loving him like we should, or honoring his word and commandments. This I think leads us to a right relationship with G-d so we may be part of his divine kingdom....
8 posted on 03/16/2004 7:22:33 PM PST by missyme
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To: missyme
"Why is the omission so striking? We've left out a portion from our own prophets, ostensibly because of what Christians think about it."
----

Interesting! This reminds me of Pharoah ordering Moses' name stricken from Egypt's stoned carved history.
9 posted on 03/16/2004 8:19:22 PM PST by juzcuz
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To: Dog Gone
Ping for later response.
10 posted on 03/16/2004 9:56:13 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Dog Gone
***After that, being sorry is enough.... but transferred bloodshed, where you can put your sins on an animal or another human, or why you'd even have to, are still puzzle to me.***

God is alien to you...

11 posted on 03/16/2004 10:20:26 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Dog Gone
I'm the Grandad and my grandkids do some bad stuff. I'm willing to forgive them, but in order for me to really forgive them, they have to round up some animals and stab them. Then, my own son has to be tortured to death. After that, being sorry is enough.

I had the exact same questions. Here's how I visualize it:

God (the father) lies outside of our physical universe. The nature of God, the essence of God, is that we lose our ability to communicate with him when our thoughts turn to what has been defined as "sin" (i.e. the ten commandments).

In order to re-establish communications, God (the father) had to engineer a solution where he could commune with us.

The solution was that he manfiested in the flesh a part of the Godhead, Christ, the logos in which he *could* have constant commune provided that the logos in the flesh never sinned.

While Christ was alive, this channel of communication stayed open. When Christ died, this channel remained open because there was no longer any sin or possibility that any sin could close it because it was no longer attached to flesh. Instead it is attached to the spirt of Christ, which cannot sin.

(Joh 10:9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out, and find pasture. )

When we accept the indwelling of God's spirit, the spirit of Christ, then we have access to this channel through the spirit of Christ. Note that we can still "block" it with sin, or we can reject the spirit, but it can never be closed by us because it is not of us.

(Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you have the power to do nothing. )

That is WHY Jesus the man had to live and die.

The concept of sacrifice is of course related. God set up a system that emphasized sacrifice so that when the time came to accept God's spirit, we would understand what was involved. What is involved is sacrificing our own selves, our own thoughts, ideas and sins, and embracing the mind of God which we have access to thorugh Christ.

The sacrifice of animals also foretold of course the sacrifice of the physical Christ.

Being sorry isn't enough. Repentence is what is required. When we attempt to live our lives (which invariably is sin) then we need to repent and remember that the channel to God thorugh Christ is only open as long as we are letting Christ lead our lives. In response, our very naturei is transformed day by day to become more like the nature of Christ.

This may just sound like senseless ranting, but I think the problem with theology is that they never try to relate it to real world scenarios...it always seems so distant and ethereral.

12 posted on 03/16/2004 10:23:07 PM PST by DouglasKC
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Salve Regina
You believe that the OT was the inspired word of God, not of men simply making things up as they went along. That's a matter of Faith, not logic. So take your anti-Christ attitude and just buzz off!

You have no idea what I believe.

So take your anti-10 Commandments attitude and just buzz off!

14 posted on 03/16/2004 10:48:58 PM PST by ambrose ("John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands" - Lt. Col. Oliver North)
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: Salve Regina
My post was neither nasty nor antagonistic and you are engaging in hysterics.
16 posted on 03/16/2004 11:31:22 PM PST by ambrose ("John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands" - Lt. Col. Oliver North)
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: Salve Regina
"We"..

Who is we?

And tell me what that "cheap shot" was.
18 posted on 03/16/2004 11:46:20 PM PST by ambrose ("John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands" - Lt. Col. Oliver North)
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To: Dog Gone
Always remember that God created this universe and he alone makes the rules. Perhaps a greater understanding will be derived from adopting the point of view of an Israelite living during the time of Moses. Specifically study the Book of Leviticus. All the rules of sacrifice are introduced and many good studies of this book will help you understand God's plan for salvation. One which I recommend is Allan Ross's "Holiness is the Lord".
19 posted on 03/17/2004 2:39:35 AM PST by LCPI
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To: Dog Gone
read hebrews9
the blood of the Lamb is the last covenant
20 posted on 03/17/2004 3:41:55 AM PST by alpha-8-25-02 (saved by GRACE and GRACE alone)
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To: Salve Regina; ambrose
The poor guy posted....

I'm not the "poor guy", he is.

21 posted on 03/17/2004 4:41:42 AM PST by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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To: Dog Gone
When humanity was young, sacrificing one of your valued livestock was exactly that, a sacrifice. When we go to mass and spend an hour on our knees and give money, it's not nearly the sacrifice as they gave when they showed their faith and devotion by slaughtering livestock.

Love is not a feeling or a noun. It's an action, a verb. It always takes some sort of sacrifice. Whether you're sacrificing your time to cook someone you love dinner or drive them somewhere or your sacrificing savings to send your kid to college. Giving time at a soup kitchen. Priests and nuns (good ones) give up family, wealth and everything worldly for love of God and their fellow man. However you feel about priests and nuns, that's the verb love, not the mushy noun kind.

Christ was also sacrificed for us. What greater way to show your love than be tortured and die for someone? God didn't have to give us salvation, He's sovereign.

Imagine if you were to become a pig or a dog in order to help pigs or dogs, then be slaughtered on their behalf. I would say that you very much care for pigs and dogs for you to do such a thing.

If you read the NT, all of His teachings are perfect. All of them. Perfect love and a perfect instruction book on world peace as well as a how-to so that the human condition can evolve from being a mob of craven animals.

What did we do in return for these perfect teachings and this gift that changed the world? We killed Him. Yet killing Him changed everything, including how we count time.

As a logical person this should tell you something.

All of this being said, given that fact that we do believe in a God that created all we see before us, we should avoid too much in the way of trying to figure Him out. Such would be 1000 times more futile than an ant on the sidewalk trying to figure out the theory of relativity.

Instead we should be happy with these clues he gives us as to His presence and wisdom on life.

No?

22 posted on 03/17/2004 5:09:49 AM PST by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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To: AAABEST; DouglasKC
Thank you both for those thoughtful answers. You've given me much to think about.
23 posted on 03/17/2004 5:25:29 AM PST by Dog Gone
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To: ambrose; AAABEST; Salve Regina
***it isn't surprising that their chosen Messiah is written to have fulfilled the prophecies.***

Old argument - textbook liberal thinking.

Let me ask you this.

Theses men who supposedly made Jesus fit the prophesies, they also wrote that Jesus, (a 30 year old peasant and common laborer from a tiny country,) said he would start a faith that would grow to fill the earth and have followers in ever nation.

Rather bold for a peaseant, don't you think.

How exactly did these writers make that up? And since they turned out to be exactly right, did they just get lucky in their predictions?


***of men simply making things up as they went along. That's a matter of Faith, not logic.***


You don't need faith to see that! Just two eyes.
24 posted on 03/17/2004 7:17:34 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: missyme; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; CAtholic Family Association; ...
Rabbi Moshe Kohen Iben Crispin of Cordova, who lived in the fourteenth century, said of the Israel as servant interpretation, it "distorts the passage from its natural meaning" and that Isaiah 53 "was given of God as a description of the Messiah, whereby, when any should claim to be the Messiah, to judge by the resemblance or non-resemblance to it whether he were the Messiah or not." (4)

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

25 posted on 03/17/2004 7:21:28 AM PST by NYer (Ad Jesum per Mariam)
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To: Dog Gone
I always had a mild curiousity about all those animal sacrifices. Millions and millions of them.

It wasn't really a stumbling block. God said do it, that was good enough for me. But I was still curious.

God made us with the ability to reason so we want to know stuff.

I heard a tape of Scott Hahn on covenant theology and he pointed out some things that made sense to me.

There was no prescribed daily ritual sacrifice until after the golden calf. From then on, there was a lot of prescribed sacrifice.

Among other passages, he pointed out chapter 20 of Ezekiel:
5
Thus speaks the Lord GOD: The day I chose Israel, I swore to the descendants of the house of Jacob; in the land of Egypt I revealed myself to them and swore: I am the LORD, your God.
6
That day I swore to bring them out of the land of Egypt to the land I had scouted for them, a land flowing with milk and honey, a jewel among all lands.
7
Then I said to them: Throw away, each of you, the detestable things that have held your eyes; do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt: I am the LORD, your God.
8
But they rebelled against me and refused to listen to me; none of them threw away the detestable things that had held their eyes, they did not abandon the idols of Egypt.

There's more, of course. He also talked about the "idols of Egypt" and what we know from sources outside the Bible. The animals they worshipped as forms of gods included lambs, bullocks and goats.

The thought he put forward was that Israel was being bullheaded about putting aside false gods they had adopted in all those years in Egypt and they needed the daily sacrifice as a reminder that there is only one God. He ordered the sacrifices to help them.

As to Jesus defeating death through His sacrifice, well that's another subject.

He told us to love with our heart,soul and mind. There is a sequence there. If the mind goes first sometimes we bump our heads and hurt ourselves.
26 posted on 03/17/2004 8:04:25 AM PST by siunevada
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To: siunevada
He told us to love with our heart,soul and mind. There is a sequence there.

Excellent point.

27 posted on 03/17/2004 8:12:22 AM PST by Dog Gone
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To: ambrose
CBN

OK, that makes sense!

Messianic Jewish talmudist, Rachmiel Frydland, recounts those early views:(3) "Our ancient commentators with one accord noted that the context clearly speaks of God's Anointed One, the Messiah."

Bump.

28 posted on 03/17/2004 10:09:33 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: missyme
Interesting Isaiah angle from today's Jewish World Review.
29 posted on 03/17/2004 11:42:46 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Dog Gone
On earth, debts are paid with money. From God's point of view, debts are paid with the pure blood from an innocent volunteer. The Messiah Jesus paid the debt for every human being to have the opportunity to reside in Heaven and worship Him for all eternity.

The only difference between a follower of the Messiah Jesus and one how does not follow the Messiah Jesus is that the non-follower has not accepted the fact that all the debts for sin have been paid, whereas, the follower has accepted a debt forgiveness plan from the ultimate "debt counselor" - Messiah Jesus. In John 6:37-40, Messiah Jesus said "(37) All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (38) For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me. (39) And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that He has given me, but raise them up at the last day. (40) For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to and believes in the Son shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

The offer still stands. All I am and ever hope to be, I owe it all to Messiah Jesus.

30 posted on 03/17/2004 11:47:21 AM PST by AlwaysFree
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To: All
The "Jewish Roots" of Christianity.


IN SHORT... The newest technique used by Christian missionaries and other Christian Clergy, is what they call learning about "The Jewish Roots of Christianity." One might think this means how, in their opinion, Christianity began with Jews, or developed from Judaism. However, this is not what they mean by "the Jewish Roots." The way they show that the roots of Christianity are to be found in Judaism is that they put a Christian theological interpretation into a Jewish ceremony or ritual. Then they claim that this planted Christian theological interpretation, having been "found" in something Jewish (because it was planted there by them in the first place), shows that Christianity came from Judaism. This is nonsense, and shows the lengths they will go to, in order to obtain for themselves Jewish legitimacy.


A FULL EXPLANATION..

A Story:

David had a garden that was absolutely beautiful. In it, he grew the most perfect tomatoes that you have ever seen! One day, Matthew came along and planted cucumbers right in the middle of David's garden. When the cucumbers started sprouting, Matthew told everyone that the tomatoes were the root of his cucumbers. In other words, that the cucumbers had developed from the tomatoes, and were the natural result -- the goal -- of the tomatoes as they grew to maturity.

The above story may seem to you to be ridiculous, but this is exactly what many people who teach "The 'Jewish Roots' Of Christianity" actually do. They plant Christian cucumbers, so to speak, in the midst of the Jewish tomatoes, and then claim that what they planted there sprouted naturally from what was already growing there. In other words, they put a Christian theological interpretation into a Jewish ceremony or ritual. Then they claim that this planted Christian theological interpretation, having been "found" in something Jewish (because it was planted there by them in the first place), shows that Christianity came from Judaism. This is nonsense, and shows the lengths they will go to, in order to obtain for themselves Jewish legitimacy. Let me give you an example:

Most people are aware that there are three pieces of matzah on the Passover seder plate. Most people know that the middle matzah is taken out, broken into two, and one of the two pieces is then hidden away, brought out at the end of the meal, and is called the Afikoman. The matzah has stripes and lines of holes on it. Christians will claim that the matzah as well as the ritual with the Afikoman is symbolic of Jesus, and therefore indicates that the basic theology of Christianity can be found in Jewish rituals. This, to them, shows the "Jewish Roots" of Christianity. They will claim that the stripes and holes represent the marks on Jesus from the scourging he received, and the holes represent those on Jesus that were caused by the crucifixion. They will claim the three pieces of matzah represent the trinity of the Father, the SON, and the Holy Spirit. Please take note that it is the middle matzah, the "son" in the trinity, that is taken out and broken (crucified), hidden (buried), and brought back out (resurrected).

The problem with this is that it is an absolute lie. There was no seder, no Haggadah, no three pieces of Matzah on any seder plate, at the time of Jesus. There was not even a seder plate. The whole ritual developed hundreds of years after Jesus lived. The first discussions of a Passover ritual describe only one half of a piece of matzah. This half piece of Matzah was then broken in half, and one of these two pieces, now a fourth of the original whole, was set aside, to be eaten as the last part of the meal. It was not hidden, it was merely set aside, remaining in plain view. The idea of hiding it came in the middle 1600's, in Germany, as a way to keep the children interested in the service, an idea that eventually caught on throughout the world. The reason that the matzah has stripes and holes is that it is machine made. The machine causes the stripes and the holes as it pulls the dough through the machine. This machine was invented only about 150 years ago, in the middle of the 1800's.

Of course, Christian missionaries and those who want to see Christianity as coming from Judaism, can interpret anything at all in a Christian way. But that does not mean that Christianity developed from whatever they are interpreting.

A Christian might ask, "But weren't the first Christians actually Jews?" Yes, but this is irrelevant. The first Protestants were Roman Catholics. Martin Luther was a Roman Catholic Priest. The Roman Catholics do not consider Protestant Christianity to be merely another form of Roman Catholicism.

If you read the Apocryphal book of I Maccabbees, you will see that the first person killed in the Maccabbee's rebellion was a Jew. He was willing to go ahead and sacrifice a pig to Zeus, just as Mattathias had refused to do. Obviously, he had to have been a very secular, assimilated Jew. Had he survived Mattathias's attack, and later formed a religion that was dedicated to the worship of Zeus and Zeus's half-human sons, would that make his newly formed faith just another form of Judaism? Should he call his new faith, "Jews For Zeus," or "Jews For Zeus And His Half-Human Sons?" Would that mean that his new faith had "Jewish Roots?"

Christian missionaries, and this includes the "Jews" For Jesus, the Messianic "Jews," and the "Hebrew" Christians, will go to any length to get even one real Jew to convert. They will take anything that is Jewish and put into it Christian symbolism. Then they will claim that, since they can now find Christian symbolism in it, that it proves that Christianity developed from it, that it was the source of Christian theology, and that the Jews are too stupid to see how Christian theology is what Gd wanted them to see in it, in the first place.

However, this can be done with anything that is not Jewish as well!

One could do the same thing with pizza. Pizza has three basic elements to it, the bread, the tomato sauce, and the cheese. The middle element is the tomato sauce, which is red.

One could easily give a Christian interpretation to these three elements that define pizza:

The three basic ingredients of pizza represent the Christian trinity of the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit.

The bread: Jesus is called the bread of life. The dough is kneaded. This image of kneading the dough is the same as someone being beaten which could represent Jesus being scourged. The dough to make the bread is rolled over with an instrument, which pokes holes in the dough to remove any air before baking. This could be likened to Jesus receiving the holes in his body from the crucifixion, just like they say of the matzah.

The tomato sauce: The sauce is red like Jesus's blood, and it is spread all around the dough like the blood of a sacrifice is put on an altar.

The cheese: The cheese covers the rest, like the death of Jesus covers the sins of the people.

From what you have read above, you can easily see how anything, even pizza, can be used to symbolize Jesus. But does that mean that the symbolism found in pizza indicates The Pizza Roots of Christianity?

There are no Jewish Roots to Christianity, because the theology that supports it is antithetical to what the Bible says, and is diametrically opposite of what Judaism believes.
31 posted on 03/17/2004 1:00:55 PM PST by freedom man4534
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To: freedom man4534
What are you talking about????The whole story of Jesus, his apostles is about the JEWS and Israel, your statement makes no sense...

Salvation is from the JEWS...Did Jesus come to nation of Hindus, Islamics, Buddhists, Pagans.. he lived and died as a Jew..

I wonder if you will answer my question I posted to you about the Messiah you are still waiting for...

By the way G0d is not a RELIGION...
32 posted on 03/17/2004 1:12:34 PM PST by missyme
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To: PetroniusMaximus
How exactly did these writers make that up? And since they turned out to be exactly right, did they just get lucky in their predictions?

Don't put words in my mouth. I did *not* say the NT was made up. Please exercise some basic reading comprehension skills.

33 posted on 03/17/2004 1:14:10 PM PST by ambrose ("John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands" - Lt. Col. Oliver North)
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To: missyme
what was the question?
34 posted on 03/17/2004 1:17:00 PM PST by freedom man4534
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To: freedom man4534
WHEN JEWS WILL FINALLY REALIZE JESUS CHRIST IS THERE MESSIAH

The conception of Antichrist will be like Christ's except that it will be by the devil instead of the Holy Ghost. He will have the devil's power like Christ had God's."

Dionysius of Luxemburg:"Elias will cause the rain, dew and snow to cease in those countries where the inhabitants oppose the two prophets and refuse to reject Antichrist.

The first land to be so punished will be Palestine in order to win over the Jews."

"After Elias finds the `Ark of the Covenant' of the Jews, (hidden until the recall of the Jews to God), he and Henoch will place the Blessed Sacrament upon it.

The Jews will then realise the Jesus Christ and not Antichrist is the true Messiah.

They will desert Antichrist and make a pilgrimage to Mount Nebo (where the Ark is found) bewailing the hardheartedness of their ancestors. Thereafter they will accept the Christian faith."



"The Antichrist will kill Henoch and Elias and leave them unburied. These will, however, be resurrected after three and one-half days and ascend into heaven in a cloud in the presence of their enemy. This miraculous event will actually confuse Antichrist. In order that the nations will not abandon him, he will lift himself with great majesty into space on Mt. Olivet, with the purported intention to cast down the prophets who have ascended into heaven. But in this moment Christ will strike him down. The earth will open and swallow him and his prophets alive. Then a large part of Jerusalem will fall into ruins from the earthquake."



St. Zenobius: "Then the Son of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ, shall come in person. He shall appear on the clouds of heaven surrounded by legions of angels; and, shining with glory, He will put to death Antichrist, the Beast, the Enemy, the Seducer, and all his followers. This shall be the end of time and the beginning of the general judgment."



35 posted on 03/17/2004 1:31:03 PM PST by missyme
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To: freedom man4534
I WAS AKSING YOU WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF ABOUT MESSIAH WHEN HE COMES, WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD, WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE DEAD, HOW WILL HE REIN IN GOD'S KINGDOM WILL THERE BE RELIGIONS TO ABIDE BY..
36 posted on 03/17/2004 1:37:28 PM PST by missyme
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To: Dog Gone
There's no question that this passage in Isaiah is referring to a literal messiah. To argue otherwise is to dispute whether the Jews believed in an upcoming messiah at all, which they most certainly did.

Sorry, but there's another interpretation. It could very well be Israel - the Jewish people as a nation - rather than an individual man.

37 posted on 03/17/2004 1:45:57 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: AlwaysFree
From God's point of view, debts are paid with the pure blood from an innocent volunteer.

Is this a fundamental Christian belief?

38 posted on 03/17/2004 1:48:06 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: missyme
Since when does the Christian interpretation of Jewish Scripture have a bearing on what is or is not read in synagogues all over the world?

Christian persecution of the Jews throughout history included forced "debates" between Rabbis and various Christian leaders. Isn't it slightly possible that instead of the writers conclusion, the passage might not be included so as not to give certain Christians (who attended Synagogue services and reported on the goings on to their leaders) any additional ammunition? Isn't there the slightest possibility that the writer is wrong?

39 posted on 03/17/2004 1:52:45 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: missyme
WHEN JEWS WILL FINALLY REALIZE JESUS CHRIST IS THERE MESSIAH

We won't. Get used to it.

40 posted on 03/17/2004 1:54:19 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: h.a. cherev
Is it more important to you to be right? or is it ghoulish pride? Read the Book of Daniel, it's not my story but it is G-d's

Daniel:
This image of Antichrist corresponds directly to the Abomination of Desolation (Daniel 9:27) when Antichrist breaks the seven year covenant with Israel and sets up an image in the Temple.

This, of course is also in complete agreement with the timing mentioned above, leaving exactly the three and one half years of the Great Tribulation.

Jesus also mentioned this event in His description of the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:15 ff). A speaking image could be the product of animation technologies, holography, genetic engineering, virtual reality, or a supernatural phenomenon.

This False Prophet has supernatural powers, obviously granted to him by Satan, like Pharaoh's magicians in the days of Moses who were able to mimic some of Moses' miracles (Exodus 7:11) and the first two of the Ten Plagues (Exodus 7:22; 8:7; 8:18).

He uses this power to make this horrific image breathe and talk. None of his powers should be construed to actually give life, which only God can do, but to deceive people into thinking that he could do so -- first by raising ('healing") Antichrist's wound, and then by making the image appear to be alive. This trick may be more than our modern technologies of animation and holography, but it is a deception just the same.

41 posted on 03/17/2004 1:58:56 PM PST by missyme
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To: h.a. cherev
Sorry, but there's another interpretation. It could very well be Israel - the Jewish people as a nation - rather than an individual man.

Of course there are other interpretations. Maybe the Jews had different interpretations at different times. I'm sure that's possible.

During the Roman occupation, it's pretty well established that they were looking for the messiah as someone who would lead them to liberation, which is more than indicative that they were looking for a person, a leader.

42 posted on 03/17/2004 2:05:44 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Salve Regina
You believe that the OT was the inspired word of God

Actually, I believe that the Torah was the Word of G-D given to Moses on Sinai. Not "inspired", not written decades after the fact, but simply G-D's law.

43 posted on 03/17/2004 2:09:26 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: h.a. cherev; freedom man4534
SO IF YOU BOTH READ THIS YOU WILL SEE IT PRETTY MUCH SAYS THIS IS THE MESSIAH YOU ARE WAITING FOR....

ELEVEN FULFILLMENTS OF BIBLE PROPHECY REQUIRED FOR THE END OF THE AGE

1. EXISTENCE OF A 200,000,000 MAN ARMY IN THE EAST

Revelation 9:16 "And the number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them."

An army of that size had never existed until China's army reached that number in the 1960's.

2. REDEVELOPMENT OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE (EUROPEAN COMMUNITY)

Daniel 2:32-33 "The head of the statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay."

Daniel 2:40-43 "Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. And in that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have the toughness of iron, and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. And in that you saw the iron mixed with clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery."



The fourth kingdom of iron is the Roman empire according to Daniel's interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The two legs are the division of the Roman empire into an eastern portion called the Byzantine empire which ended in the 1400's and a western portion based in Rome which ended in the 400's. The nations of Europe since the Roman empire dissolved have never adhered or formed one empire but continue as separate nations, however, the European Union now has 15 Member States and is preparing for the accession of 13 eastern and southern European countries.

3. RETURN OF THE ONE PURE LANGUAGE, HEBREW, TO ISRAEL

Zephaniah 3:9 "For then I will return to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent."

Prior to the restoration of Israel in 1948, Hebrew was a dead language. Now Hebrew is spoken throughout Israel.

4. REBUILDING OF THE TEMPLE, RESTORATION OF TEMPLE WORSHIP AND ANIMAL SACRIFICES IN JERUSALEM

For several end time prophecies to be fulfilled, the temple will have to be rebuilt.

Revelation 11:2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the oly city for forty-two months."

Daniel 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolation, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."



Daniel 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary."



Some archeologists believe that the temple mount is actually 340 feet south of the Dome of the Rock site, putting the Dome of the Rock within the Court of the Gentiles. This may be the court outside the temple that is left out.



There are many groups already working on preparations for the new temple. The blueprints are already done, the temple garments have been made, and there have already been attempts to lay the cornerstone of the temple. The only thing standing in the way of the construction of the new temple is Islam's third holiest site, the Dome of the Rock and government support for such an undertaking. Some possible scenarios for the rebuilding of the temple are as follows:



1. The persuasion and performing of miracles by the Antichrist and False Prophet convinces the Islamic world to approve the rebuilding.



2. The United Nations will negotiate the rebuilding of the temple following a war with the armies from the North (Russia and Islamic forces). This assumes that the war with the armies from the North is not the battle of Armageddon as some feel and that this attack occurs before the rapture or tribulation period begins. The supernatural destruction of the Russian army and Islamic forces will cause an outpouring of Christian worship and zeal amongst the Jewish people who will reconstruct the temple.

3. It is determined that the site of the first two temples is actually south of the Dome of the Rock, and the court of the gentiles (Dome of the Rock) will be left out of the 3rd temple.



A group in Israel called the Temple Mount Faithful have obtained most of the clothing, instruments and other equipment required for temple worship and are actively preparing for the laying of the third temple's cornerstone.

5. APPEARANCE OF THE RED HEIFER AFTER 2000 YEARS

Numbers 19:2-7 "This is the statute of the law which the Lord has commanded, saying, "Speak to the sons of Israel that they bring you an unblemished red heifer in which is no defect and on which a yoke has never been placed. "You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, and it shall be brought outside the camp and be slaughtered in his presence. Next Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle some of its blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times. "Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight; its hide and its flesh and its blood, with its refuse, shall be burned. "The priest shall then wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward come into the camp, but the priest shall be unclean until evening."



A red heifer will be required to be used in the process of purification described in the book of Numbers. In May 1997 the first Red Heifer was born in 2000 years. Another red Heifer was born in Israel in March of 2002.

6. INCREASE IN KNOWLEDGE AND TRAVEL

Daniel 12:4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."



Billy Graham was quoted as saying, "ninety percent of all the engineers and scientists who have ever lived are alive today." Air travel, space travel, DNA research and human cloning are all examples of the rapid increase in knowledge in our generation.

7. RETURN OF THE ETHIOPIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL

Zephaniah 3:10-11 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, will bring My offerings. In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain."


In 1984, Operation Moses saw the airlift of 15,000 Jews who had already fled to refugee camps in Sudan to escape starvation. In 1991, Operation Solomon flew 20,000 Jews to Israel from Ethiopia itself. A further airlift began in June of 1999, aimed at transporting the last 3,000 members of the Quara Jewish community from northeastern Ethiopia to Israel.

8. THE RISE OF RUSSIA

Ezekiel 38:2,4,8 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him. I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them wielding swords. After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them."



In order for some end time events to occur Russia will have to be a strong nation with a strong military.

9. RETURN OF RUSSIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL

Jeremiah 23:7-8 "Therefore behold, the days are coming declares the Lord, when they will no longer say, as the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt, but as the Lord lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I have driven them. Then they will live on their own soil."



In the 1970's and 1980's there was a mass exodus of Russian Jews out of Communist Russia. In 1999 the Associated Press reported a dramatic increase in the number of Jewish immigrants from Russia, bringing the largest number of Russian Jews to Israel since the early 1990's.

10. TECHNOLOGY FOR THE MARK OF THE BEAST

Revelation 13:16-17 "And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."



On May 10, three members of a family in Florida became the first people to receive the biochip implant. Each device, made of silicon and called a VeriChip, is a small radio transmitter about the size of a piece of rice that is injected under a person's skin. It transmits a unique personal ID number whenever it is within a few feet of a special receiver unit. VeriChip's maker describes it as "a miniaturized, implantable, radio frequency identification device (RFID) that can be used in a variety of security, emergency and healthcare applications."



Is the biochip the mark of the beast to be used by the antichrist? We can't really know. What is significant is that people are being softened to the idea of a mark or an implant as a means of maintaining security, providing medical information, and regulating a more interdependent world. As attitudes change, fears subside, and people are convinced of the need for such a mark, the true mark of the beast will be easily introduced to the world by the antichrist.

11. PLANS FOR THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT

The United Nations, World Trade Organization, International Criminal Court, UN peacekeeping/police force, numerous UN NGO's, and other agencies are preliminary steps to the formation of a one world government. We now have the communications technology, transportation, and the pro-globalization media necessary to usher in the one world government headed by the antichrist. The increasing terrorist threat and the middle east conflict will only speed up the formation of this governing body as fear and promises of better security make more people willing to give up their national sovereignty for global governance.

12. INSTANT COMMUNICATION AROUND THE WORLD

Revelation 11:3, 7-10 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth."



Television and the 24-hour news networks make it possible for people around the world to see the dead prophets and rejoice at their deaths.



Luke 21:28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Luke 21:32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place."


45 posted on 03/17/2004 2:15:04 PM PST by missyme
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To: h.a. cherev
Don't you beleive that it's time to look to the future and realize what you have to look forward to?
46 posted on 03/17/2004 2:16:43 PM PST by missyme
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To: missyme
Is it more important to you to be right?

I could ask the same question of you.

47 posted on 03/17/2004 2:19:57 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: missyme
Don't you beleive that it's time to look to the future and realize what you have to look forward to?

I look back to learn from the past and look forward in anticipation. Why do you ignore the part of your past which is uncomfortable for you?

48 posted on 03/17/2004 2:22:42 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: Salve Regina
I was just throwing the jerk's rude, obnoxious words back in his face.

Why? What were you trying to accomplish and did it work?

49 posted on 03/17/2004 2:25:06 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: h.a. cherev
My Salvation does not have to do about being "Right" I could care less about being right I am not challenging
G-d .
I believe in TORAH with all my heart, I have also broke many of TORAH'S commandments. I am a sinner, sure I do not Kill people, use G-d's name in vain, steal commit adultery, but I have not honored some of the commandments and find some of them very hard to obey..Now based on that statement I do not DESERVE to be part of G-d's Holy Kingdom, therefore I ask Jesus into my life my heart and pray for forgiveness.

So on Judgement Day, G-d will know I sinned agaisnt TORAH yet I accepted his Son to be my reedemer so I may have a place in G-d Kingdom... I guess for you Judgement Day will be that you obeyed every commandment of TORAH, therefore
G-d will place his own judgement on you
50 posted on 03/17/2004 2:26:38 PM PST by missyme
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