VANITY: Question for Christians

3/30/2004 | me

[MarMema]

In the Orthodox church, each year, we celebrate the victory against the iconoclasts on our annual Sunday of Orthodoxy.
We join together here with some 14 other Orthodox churches and we all display our icons. Just happened a few weeks ago, in fact.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

The icon is a witness to the Incarnation. It is for us a theology all its own, about the created revealing to us the Uncreated, just as Christ did.

Respectfully, MarMema, the Theology of the Icon is NOT to Christians "a theology all its own". The Gospels, ICONS AND ALL, is to "the Jew first, and also to the Greeks".

The Jews did receive, even in the Old Testament, an Iconography which they must admit does not violate the Second Commandment, in the Graven Cherubim who paid homage to the Mercy Seat.

But they are unwilling to look upon the Mercy Seat itself, who is Jesus Christ, the Express Icon of the Invisible Father. (OP's alternative translation of Hebrews 1:1-3, which he is willing to defend)

This is one reason that in Eastern Orthodox Churches there are representations of two cherubim behind the altar on which the bread and wine are consecrated to become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ who was sacrificed for mankind. And between and before them is the altar at which the communion takes place in the Eucharist. ~~ www.Liturgica.com

Jesus Christ, our Mercy Seat.

But though the Jews have accepted the Biblically-ordained Iconography of the two Graven Cherubim who stand on either side of the Mercy Seat, paying homage.... they are unwilling to look upon the Icon of Mercy Himself, and be saved: the Lord Jesus Christ, the Express Image of God (Hebrews 1:3 again)

This is the Great Tragedy of the Jews. So close.... and yet, so far.

And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

In the Orthodox church, each year, we celebrate the victory against the iconoclasts on our annual Sunday of Orthodoxy. We join together here with some 14 other Orthodox churches and we all display our icons. Just happened a few weeks ago, in fact.

You Eastern Orthodox may have celebrated your "victory against the iconoclasts" a bit too soon. After all, eight centuries later, the Iconoclastic Protestants came along.

But then, of course, you have the occasional OP Protestant who looks back fondly on the velcro-puppets-on-feltboard Vacation Bible Schooling of my youth, and think to myself: "You know, though as a Protestant I should be loathe to admit it... I was learning the Bible iconically."

I still can't bring myself to venerate Icons, per se. But as an ancient and hallowed means of Instruction and Contemplation -- If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, I always say.

"We dare not allow our interpretation of the second commandment to lead us into a docetic diminution of the Reality of the Incarnation." ~~ Rev. Dr. Greg Bahnsen, Orthodox Presbyterian (RIP)

best, OP

[NZerFromHK]

It really depends on the definition of "Christian". The parts of Chsistendom that I have been to (Baptist, non-denominational, Christian and Missionary Alliance, Evangelical Free, Presbyterian, and one Anglican church) we never use images and icons and basically frown on them. So the question of whether we Christians use icons would get a "No" from me.

I will leave others answer for other parts of the Christendom.

[NZerFromHK]

For a look at the traditional attitude towards icons, have a look at the last paragraph of this article:

http://www.lamblion.com/other/religious/RI-01.php

Disclaimer: I do not necessarily agree with all the points in that article or website. I'm posting it just to show the traditional attitudes from that part of Chsistendom.

[kosta50]

...what's the beef with crucifixes, statues, and nativity scenes in Eastern Orthodoxy?

There are more crucifixes and crossings in Eastern orthodoxy than Catholicism. As for statues nativity scenes, that's simply not traditional Orthodox iconography.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

It really depends on the definition of "Christian". The parts of Chsistendom that I have been to (Baptist, non-denominational, Christian and Missionary Alliance, Evangelical Free, Presbyterian, and one Anglican church) we never use images and icons and basically frown on them. So the question of whether we Christians use icons would get a "No" from me. I will leave others answer for other parts of the Christendom.

"We never use images and icons" ~~ Yes, you do.

I grew up (age 5 to 13) in an Evangelical Free Church (which, as you know, is basically "Old-School Scandinavian Baptist") and some of the fondest memories of childhood I enjoy are the Bible Stories I was taught during E-Free Vacation Bible School employing simple velcro cut-outs (of sheep, of shepherds, of the Cross and an Empty Grave) upon a simple felt-board background.

ICONS.

The Evangelical Free Church teaches its children, and evangelizes its Vacation Bible Schools, Iconically. Simple, straightforward, evangelical Icons for a simple, straightforward, evangelical Church.

But ICONS nonetheless.

We Protestants are loathe to call them that. But that is what they are.

If you want to be a true Iconoclast, why don't you suggest that every Evangelical-Free Church immediately burn their velcro-and-feltboard Vacation Bible School supplies? Somehow I doubt you'll get very far.

The Church of Jesus Christ teaches ICONICALLY.
The Church of Jesus Christ has always taught ICONICALLY.

Jesus Himself is the Express Icon of the Invisible Father (Hebrews 1:3).

best, OP

[kosta50]

That article is simply wrong, or should I say ignorant. Orthodox and Catholics do not pray to icons or Saints or Mary. The Christians believe, as they have from the beginning, that life in Christ is life eternal and that those who are no longer with us are alive. We pray with our congregations and we also pray with our departed brethren for God's mercy. We also venerate those who are held high in our esteem, Theotokos, the Mother of God, Blessed Ever-Virgin Mary, and Saints. We worship only God. To imply anything else is pure ignorance.

[kosta50]

You are right, OP, as usual. In fact, iconography was used for the illiterate poeple to learn the faith, just as we teach our illiterate children by visual means. The former were more elaborate but nonetheless an icon is an icon. God bless

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

All the above being said, I must admit... I would still think it pretty silly if Evangelical Free children were to bow down and venerate a velcro-cutout of "Saint Joseph leading Mary and Baby Jesus away from Herod" and ask Saint-Joseph-of-the-feltboard to "Pray for them".

Who can deny the usefulness of these simple Icons in the instruction of Children? I do not. How much the more useful, then, are the artistically-powerful Great Icons of Christendom?

I get the fact that Icons are, and have always been, a method employed by the Church for Instruction and Contemplation. I dig that, kemosabes. In fact, I think that Protestants are intellectually and theologically dishonest when they deny it.

The "Veneration and Prayer" of Icons, though....
That, I still just don't get it.

best, OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You are right, OP, as usual. In fact, iconography was used for the illiterate poeple to learn the faith, just as we teach our illiterate children by visual means. The former were more elaborate but nonetheless an icon is an icon. God bless

Thank you, but my "Iconophilia" (love of Icons) has boundaries. I see their ancient and hallowed heritage and valuable usages, but some aspects still just don't "gel" with me. (See my #30)

[kosta50]

people face it, praying towards it?

Original Christianity, as practiced by the Church Fathers, always placed such symbols of faith facing East. The operand word is toward and not to. We pray facing toward the East, looking toward the symbol of faith, pray to God.

Having said that, I have seen icons and paintings depicting an old man with a beard, Jesus sitting to his right, and the Holy Ghost (in the form of a dove) above them. I have seen it in the Greek Orthodox church in St. Augustine, Florida, and again on some religious brochures. That is aboslute blasphemy! Just who is that old man with a long white beard? The Father? The Orthodox theology is based on apophatic reasoning -- which states, among other things that God is ineffable, uncircumscribed, eternal, ever-present, and so on. For anyone to draw God the Father in a human form, with a logn white beard (also seen in some Catholic paintings) is one certified blasphemy par excellence! And the priest of that Greek church in St. Augustine should know better, as should his congregation.

That icon is pure heresy because it depicts three separate entities, as physical beings in heaven. Nothing could be more theologically heretical than that! It is utterly pagan and blasphemous.

But those religions that don't use icons or statues do not guarantee that individual believers are not forming their own "mental icons" that could be equally corrupt except that no one will know but the beholder. The only difference is that in the original Christian Churches (in other words pre-Luther), individual corruption is evident from their paintings or sculptures and could therefore be corrected. In those religions where depiction remains in the eye of the beholder, the heretical images remain unaltered.

[kosta50]

Thank you, see my #28.

[kosta50]

In fact, see also my #32

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Thank you, see my #28..... In fact, see also my #32 ~~ by kosta50

I saw your #28, and I thank you for your #32.

I still don't get it.

I'm happily prepared to admit the ancient and valuable usage of Icons for Instruction, Contemplation, and Meditation, but I still don't get the "Veneration and Prayers" bit.

I know that the Eastern Orthodox tell me that Departed Saints are not dead, but merely departed. They're absolutely right on this. And it is certainly true that we should ask our living brethren here on this Earth to pray for us.

But Samuel regarded it as a very greivous moral offense for Saul to call up his spirit, and seek Prayers through him. Why? I don't know. But Samuel didn't like it one bit.

Maybe it has something to do with the Resurrection. It is true, amongst we who Live in the Flesh upon the Earth, that I may derive benefit from your prayers for me. But in regard to the Departed, though it is True that they *are not Dead* -- if I should seek Prayers as I would from one who is currently standing beside me in the Flesh, maybe it is only appropriate that I seek Prayers only from the One who is Departed and yet Glorified in Flesh, the One who is Resurrected already.

At least, that would explain to me why it was a very greivous Sin for Saul to call upon the departed spirit of Samuel for Prayer. Perhaps we who are in the flesh must ask for the prayers of those with whom we share our current experience in flesh -- eachother, and the Glorified-but-Incarnate Jesus.

I don't know (I honestly don't).

But what I do know is this: Jesus is ready and willing to receive the prayers of we who dwell upon the Earth; whereas Samuel, departed from the Earth, considered it a greivous moral sin for Saul to call upon him to offer Prayers.

I'm not sure that I understand all the pneumatological mechanics involved, but knowing that Jesus is ready and willing to receive my prayers -- then for myself, I think it best not to disturb the Departed Saints as they are worshipping in Heaven, offer my Prayers to Jesus Alone, and stay on the safe side.

Best, OP

[kosta50]

Thank you, OP. The theological aspects of the intercession of Saints, and Angels, and the distinction between the worship of God and veneration of Saints and Angels is not a simple subject. I am sure you, of all people, are keenly aware of that. I will throw in some ideas, because more detailed arguments would be to extensive for this medium.

The Orthodox share the belief of all Christians that Christ is the only mediator for the reconciliation between man and God.

The Church believes that the Saints, having prayed for the members of the Church while on earth, do so in Heaven. But you are right: the intercession of the Saints for the moral uprgithness and betterment of the Militant members is not clearly stated in the Scripture.

Angels, on the other hand, who are also created beings, intercede (Zech 1:12-13)

"The angel of the Lord said 'O Lord pf hosts, how long wilt though have no mercy...' And the Lord answered gracious and comforting words to the angel who talked with me."

and Tobit 12:12, LXX

"So now, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I [angel] brought the remembrance of your prayer before the Holy One."

and Luke 15:10

Our Lord Jesus Christ says "I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

The distinction between veneration and worship is likewise very clear. Veneration is rightful expression of honor for those whose faith and pious life are deemed worthy of God's glory. Worship and adoration belong to God alone. Saints are commemorated. The worship of Saints and Angles is forbidden in Scripture (Rev. 19:10).

Likewise, the icons and relics are honored as pious and righteous men and women of God, worthy of our respect, many of whom have died martyr's death for faith. Icons were found in the catacombs and early church walls. John of Damascus, a towering theologian, set the correct usage of icons: "honor which is given to the icon passes on the the prototype." They help imitate the virtues of the saints to glorify God. Icons are monuments.

Any thoughts?

[Romulus]

Icons are monuments.

And windows onto the Kingdom. Iconodules do not look so much upon icons as through them -- just as, in your Bible school you all understood that the stories were not about two-dimensional pieces of felt, but rather the subsiding realities that St. John Damascene calls their prototype.

[stainlessbanner]

Rumor has it that there's a Mod devoted souly

[Hermann the Cherusker]

There are plenty of Jewish Synagouges with stained glass windows of Biblical scenes and persons (like Moses). You are quite right to observe that the 2nd Commandment prohibits the worship of idols as God. That doesn't say anything about stories in glass.

[FormerLib]

You Eastern Orthodox may have celebrated your "victory against the iconoclasts" a bit too soon.

The victory represented only a major battle; the war continues.

A note for the casual reader, it is now believed that the iconoclasts were primarily motivated by an attempt to appease the Islamics at the gate as the Moslems reviled Christian icons. The more things change...