VANITY: Question for Christians

3/30/2004 | me

[Frapster]

One of the frailties of humanity is our penchant for living strictly in context of our 5 senses. It is inevitable that when we rely upon religious icons as an enabler of our faith we will eventually associate our spiritual well-being with that icon. In my opinion that results in the worship of graven images and is pervasive in religious culture - including Protestantism.

[SoothingDave]

Maybe it has something to do with the Resurrection.

Maybe.

In the Old Testament times, prior to the Resurrection, Heaven was not yet open to us. The OT saints, like Samuel were not with God, they dwelled in the place of the dead, we call it "the Limbo of the Fathers."

This is the "hell" the Apostle's Creed says that Jesus visited after His death. He collected the holy OT people and brought them to Heaven.

So, yes the Resurrection had something to do with it. The dwelling place of the holy "dead" is now Heaven and not this Limbo.

Perhaps we who are in the flesh must ask for the prayers of those with whom we share our current experience in flesh -- eachother, and the Glorified-but-Incarnate Jesus.

We consider this an unnecessary severing ofthe Body of Christ. Physical death is not an obstacle, a divider between the various parts of God's Body.

SD

[FormerLib]

It is inevitable that when we rely upon religious icons as an enabler of our faith we will eventually associate our spiritual well-being with that icon.

Ah, see there's the error: we do not rely on them as an enabler of our faith. Reliance implies a necessity, which it is not or no Orthodox could pray without an icon (which is not true at all).

It is not a matter of "living strictly in context of our 5 senses" but using our senses at part of our rightly directed worship of God.

[SoothingDave]

Ah, see there's the error: we do not rely on them as an enabler of our faith.

Next you'll tell me you can pray without incense. ;-)

SD

[Frapster]

I think you're describing the ideal. While I don't disagree with the notion of the ideal the reality of human nature doesn't always prove to be so ideal.

[Gamecock]

***it's only a rumor***


It is a fact.

Ask any of the Calvinists sent to the Outer Darkness

[Frapster]

Let me clarify something - I'm not in any way attacking Catholicism or Orthodox Christianity - nor am I attacking protestantism or any brand of faith. I'm merely pointing out the reality of human nature. We feel better with things we can comprehend and by nature we feel better with what we can comprehend.

[SoothingDave]

We feel better with things we can comprehend and by nature we feel better with what we can comprehend.

No Orthodox or Catholic, even when looking upon an icon or other depiction, believes that this vision means he can "comprehend" God.

SD

[Frapster]

But people in general are not comfortable with the incomprehensible. Hence the problem.

[man of Yosemite]

The Christian position is that a man is saved by faith in Christ apart from any works of the Law. When Christ offered himself as our substitute, he shed his blood to redeem us from the transgressions of the Law, sealing a new covenant by faith in his blood, establishing an approach to God similar to the one Abraham enjoyed. Israel lived without the Law for generations, as Abraham was counted righteous because of his faith. Christian teaching says that the Law was added later, and was to demonstrate to Israel the impossibility of sinful man to keep the righteousness of God. This is why there are offerings for sin in the Law, to atone for the sins which God knew would be committed. We are taught that the Law was a schollmaster until the appointed time when Christ would come and fulfill all things. Throughout the Law and Prophets there are prophecies concerning Christ, pointing him out that we might recognize him.

When someone accepts the Messiah as his Lord, the Holy Spirit comes upon him. The Spirit puts the Law of God in the believer's heart and allows him to know the will of God. The appearance of crosses in churches are not to be so much objects of worship but reminders of what Christ has done. A person bowing down to a statue would be considered a person of little faith, God expressly forbids the worship of manmade objects. Still, we are not accepted because we adhere to a set list of rules, but because we have believed. Like Abraham, we are counted righteous by faith, the Messiah's sinlessness being applied unto us, and our sins being placed on him at the cross.

[FormerLib]

We feel better with things we can comprehend and by nature we feel better with what we can comprehend.

It shouldn't come as any surpise that people are more comfortable with the concrete than they are the abstract (substitute comrehensible and incomprehensible if so desired).

Is there anything inherently incorrect about using the senses to move one in the direction of correct understanding of the incomprehensible?

Please note that I am not suggesting about relying on our senses to determine truth (which has revealed itself unto us) or reality (as the senses are far more limited than reality).

For instance, Soothing Dave joked about praying without incense a few posts above. Obviously, one can pray without incense but when I include incense as part of my prayers, it does help reinforce the knowledge that this is something that is completely set apart from anything else that I do.

There is also something about such actions as lighting a candle and preparing the incense and going to my family's prayer corner with its icons that helps me really prepare for my prayers. Does that make any of this a crutch? I don't believe it does as it has never become required.

[SoothingDave]

But people in general are not comfortable with the incomprehensible.

I think people inclined to worshipping the "comprehensible" will do so regardless of whether the false image of God is one made of marble or only of their own mind. In fact, a weak mind is more able, IMO, to understand that a statue is not God than they are to realize that their ideas about God are not the totality of God.

SD

[Romulus]

The more things change...

And yet -- a good many muslims are going to the movies to see the Passion of Christ, iconophobia notwithstanding, and coming away deeply moved. That cannot be a bad thing.

[Frapster]

I genuinely have no quarrel with your religious practices. I am merely commenting upon the human condition and our ability to idolize anything and everything. There is not a single denomination/flavor of the faith that has escaped the propensity to unfortunately idolize those icons/resources which they believe draw them closer to God. I guess the admonition is that we should periodically examine our practices and determine if our relationship with God would still stand were we not able to interact with Him in context of said practices/icons/resources.

[MarMema]

But people in general are not comfortable with the incomprehensible.

The Eastern Orthodox, in particular, are *extremely* comfortable with the incomprehensible. It is exactly one large difference between eastern and western Christianity, and if you like, I can share with you numerous links of writings stating exactly this.

It is, in fact, a part of our core doctrine, that of apophatic theology.

[FormerLib]

...escaped the propensity to unfortunately idolize those icons/resources...

I'm sorry, but what you are describing is, quite literally, idolatry and I must protest any implication, even unintentional, that the Orthodox Church idolizes icons or practices idolatry in any form.

[FormerLib]

...than they are to realize that their ideas about God are not the totality of God.

Good one!

[MarMema]

I guess the admonition is that we should periodically examine our practices and determine if our relationship with God would still stand were we not able to interact with Him in context of said practices/icons/resources.

Of course our theologies are completely different to begin with, but for us, the Eastern Orthodox, we strive to create a place of worship which is foriegn and otherworldly precisely in order to better worship God. We use our senses, all of them, in an effort to better worship God.

The question for us would be, how can you truly leave this world and enter into serious prayer with God, in a place which looks, smells, and sounds exactly like the world?

[Frapster]

*blinks* Here's my post to which you're replying.

I genuinely have no quarrel with your religious practices. I am merely commenting upon the human condition and our ability to idolize anything and everything. There is not a single denomination/flavor of the faith that has escaped the propensity to unfortunately idolize those icons/resources which they believe draw them closer to God. I guess the admonition is that we should periodically examine our practices and determine if our relationship with God would still stand were we not able to interact with Him in context of said practices/icons/resources.

To repeat - this is not a commentary on your faith per se - it is a commentary on the human condition. If you are taking it personally then your issue is not with me it's with God.

[Frapster]

The Eastern Orthodox, in particular, are *extremely* comfortable with the incomprehensible. It is exactly one large difference between eastern and western Christianity, and if you like, I can share with you numerous links of writings stating exactly this.

It is, in fact, a part of our core doctrine, that of apophatic theology.

I'm going to regret saying this because you're going to assume that I have an agenda against Eastern Orthodox practices but I repeat - the human condition, particularly in context of religious tradition, has a propensity to to lose site of the immaterial in context of the material. For example - the nation of Israel has historically allowed idolatry to creep into its social fabric and God had to repeatedly purge them of said idolatry. To further illustrate my point and take the focus off of a conversation specifically about Eastern Orthodox practices - as I mentioned earlier Protestantism is certainly not immune to such failures. Of course what I'm about to say will cause me no end of grief saying this but it has been my observation that conservative Protestant churches fall regularly into Bible worship. This is demonstrated in the emphasis to the point of exclusion of the 'incomprehensible' in their daily lives. All that to say it was not my intention to single any particular faith out - it was, once again, a commentary upon the condition of man.