VANITY: Searching for sainthood through marriage.

VANITY ^ | 4/5/04 | VANITY

[dangus]

I keep hearing about how since Vatican II, the persepctive of the Catholic Church has changed: it no longer considers marriage an inferior vocation to the religious life. I'd like to think so, because I asked God if he wanted me to be a priest, and I got a very clear, "No!" Several, in fact. As in: "OK, God, right, got the message, really!" Yet, I believe we are all called to sainthood.

The issue is this: Most saints were priests, sisters or brothers. There's a few married saints I can think of, who were married, and became saints in spite of their marriage. I can find very few saints who achieved sainthood through their marriage vocation, although I think the Martins of Lisieux either are saints, or are being considered. Can anyone name some (post-biblical) saints who became saints through their vocation to the married life?

Second question is even wierder:

If marriage is a sacrament, then is Christian sex supposed to be a form of worship? I'm dead serious when I note that during sex is when some of the most hardened atheists call out for God. (No, THAT'S profanity, not worship, but it shows that the *instinct* IS there.)

[A.A. Cunningham]

Married Saints

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[dangus]

Help me out, everyone, please...
Ping the Catholics! Ping the Orthodox! I need answers and a variety of perspectives!

[TotusTuus]

Here's a married couple who have been recently beatified. Frome the Vatican website: BEATIFICATION OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD LUIGI BELTRAME QUATTROCCHI AND MARIA CORSINI, MARRIED COUPLE

[A.J.Armitage]

I'm dead serious when I note that during sex is when some of the most hardened atheists call out for God.

The thing I love about Catholics is that you make observations like this.

[dangus]

O, please A.J., don't generalize from me to the entire Catholic Church!

[siunevada]

One of the great saints:

St. Frances of Rome
(Bussa di Leoni.)

One of the greatest mystics of the fifteenth century; born at Rome, of a noble family, in 1384; died there, 9 March, 1440. Her youthful desire was to enter religion, but at her father's wish she married, at the age of twelve, Lorenzo de' Ponziani. Among her children we know of Battista, who carried on the family name, Evangelista, a child of great gifts (d. 1411), and Ages (d. 1413). Frances was remarkable for her charity to the poor, and her zeal for souls. She won away many Roman ladies from a life of frivolity, and united them in an association of oblates attached to the White Benedictine monastery of Santa Maria Nuova; later they became the Benedictine Oblate Congregation of Tor di Specchi (25 March, 1433) which was approved by Eugene IV (4 July, 1433). Its members led the life of religious, but without the strict cloister or formal vows, and gave themselves up to prayer and good works. With her husband's consent Frances practiced continency, and advanced in a life of contemplation. Her visions often assumed the form of drama enacted for her by heavenly personages. She had the gift of miracles and ecstasy, as well as the bodily vision of her guardian angel, had revelations concerning purgatory and hell, and foretold the ending of the Western Schism. She could read the secrets of consciences and detect plots of diabolical origin. She was remarkable for her humility and detachment, her obedience and patience, exemplified on the occasion of her husband's banishment, the captivity of Battista, her sons' death, and the loss of all her property.

On the death of husband (1436) she retired among her oblates at Tor di Specchi, seeking admission for charity's sake, and was made superior. On the occasion of a visit to her son, she fell ill and died on the day she had foretold. Her canonization was preceded by three processes (1440, 1443, 1451) and Paul V declared her a saint on 9 May, 1608, assigning 9 March as her feast day. Long before that, however, the faithful were wont to venerate her body in the church of Santa Maria Nuova in the Roman Forum, now known as the church of Santa Francesca Romana.

[siunevada]

Second question:

I'll point you to the Catechism. Maybe it will offer you some insight but I doubt it will answer the question in the way you are seeking.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3art7.htm


Just out of curiosity, is that a personal observation about atheists' exclamations?

[A.J.Armitage]

I wasn't, it's based on what I've seen other Catholics (contemporary and in the past) say. And it's a sincere compliment.

[dangus]

"Now, let me be clear on this point: I did not have sex with that atheist."

[TotusTuus]

The issue is this: Most saints were priests, sisters or brothers.

I think it would be better to say canonized saints. I'm sure there are many, many saints in heaven who were married in life on earth and achieved holiness through their marriages. Their feast day would be celebrated Nov. 1st, All Saints Day.

There's a few married saints I can think of, who were married, and became saints in spite of their marriage.

Now that's funny. The above Beati I posted could be a start for you.

All people are called to holiness. Our Lord specifically raised the dignity of marriage to the supernatural order as a sacrament in his Church. Indeed, Christ's marriage to us, His Church, is THE marriage that all others are meant to participate in and symbolize.

If you are married, then your vocation has a name, and that name is the name of your spouse. It is precisely in marriage that the proper dignity of the sexual union of spouses as a function of love occurs. Anything less is, well, a sin. Yes, the conjugal act is meant to be holy, and is meant to be integrated in the lives of spouses to lead to more life and love (i.e. a family), extending the fecundity of God's Life and Love.

[dangus]

Well, Thanks for the compliment. What I meant is that I know it's a very odd observation, and I would hate to defend any assertion implicit in it.

[dangus]

>> Now that's funny. <<

I did once tell my friend's fiancee that she was certain to attain sainthood :). No, what I meant by that: For instance, a woman who was forced into marriage, her husband died, and she lived like a nun is not the sort of example I am looking for. I'm looking for people who willingly chose procreation as a saintly calling.

[Aliska]

I guess she wouldn't be as saintly if she and her husband had raised their brood and lovingly coached a bunch of kids playing sports and invited them over for hot cocoa.

That's the kind of sanctity I see in married people, extending their love beyond their own family interests, and are a real leaven in society.

I drove past a catholic schoolyard today and saw the kids happily playing and thought they are the future. Ordinary kids who will grow up to raise ordinary families and do ordinary things and not be a drag on society.

Margery of Kemp is credited with writing the first autobiography. She talked her husband into foregoing marital relations and used his money and resources to make pilgrimages, no doubt influenced by tales of sanctity. I got the feeling that she merely wanted to escape from the monotony of her life as it was.

[Aliska]

I'm looking for people who willingly chose procreation as a saintly calling.

I looked in vain for examples like that. I failed to find any. Maybe the account I read was not true, but St. Therese's parents didn't consummate their marriage until they were urged to do so by a priest. They had felt called to what they considered the higher life before they married, and it was almost as if that was second best.

I guess fixing watches as honest work isn't as saintly as administering the sacraments and ecstasies and visions.

As a child, Therese happily played in a little garden at their home with her brothers and sisters. That's my best memory of her life before normal adversities came along and took away her mother and a sibling, I think.

I can't think of anything more saintly in this world than providing a happy, safe environment for children, the future, along with moral instruction that is not too severe.

[dangus]

The doctrine of the Catholic faith, as newly emphasized since Vatican II, as I understand it, agrees with you. But the example given does seem to short-shrift such saintliness. Plus, I look at the vocations of the Church. The priest offers the body and blood of Christ. That is an amazing, shocking assertion which is humanly impossible to accept. If marriage is an equal vocation, then, there must be an equally mysterious occurrence. It would seem to me to be when a spouse offers his/her own body to allow the creation of a soul. Even then, the Christian must place the desire for God above the desire for his spouse.

It's not like there isn't a similar temptation for priests. How many priests succeed in making their homilies not about their own personal issues, but about expounding on the scripture? How many substitute personal style for the rubrics; is not their lust for power an equal temptaion to sexual lust? Yet doesn't their joy come from abandonning their own desire and experiencing God working through them?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Just out of curiosity, is that a personal observation about atheists' exclamations?

rofl.. I wondered the same thing ;-)

dangus, I have thoughts on your post. Give me a bit to formulate them coherently.

[dangus]

The story about the Martins of Lisieux is true. They each thought they were called to celibacy; a priest assured them that marital love was blessed. Not from lust, but from a willingness to obey God (as opposed to a lustful spouse), they did consummate their marriages. A lot. They had nine children.

I count theirs as a story of a willing vocation to procreation; it is not unusual for a person to be called to a vocation by another, and their have been people who have lived celibate lives in spite of their marriage. (Their was a saintly empress of Austria, if I recall correctly, who did this.)

[Aliska]

Yet doesn't their joy come from abandonning their own desire and experiencing God working through them?

I don't see much joy in their lives now nor in the past. They seem either terribly burdened or were corrupted by the world.

What you have said is true, as well as scriptural, but sometimes I think the western church went overboard with unrealistic models of sanctity, the people bought into it, and here we are.

I don't have all the answers, but every time they propose another founder of some religous order for sainthood, I get angry.

I don't like to put the holiness of the religious life over the holiness of married couples. Sometimes I think married couples are holier because they have to earn their living and are more grounded in reality and achieve sanctity anyway in spite of the hardships. There are, no doubt, millions of them in heaven. We just don't know their names

This is a wicked thought, I'll admit, but promoting sanctity of the religious life over sanctity of marriage is a way of strengthening their grip over the people and keeping them in their place.