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Document lists 28 grave abuses against Eucharist
Catholic News Service ^ | April 23, 2004 | Jerry Filteau

Posted on 04/24/2004 7:32:21 AM PDT by Desdemona

Document lists 28 grave abuses against Eucharist

By Jerry Filteau Catholic News Service

WASHINGTON (CNS) -- In an instruction warning against a wide range of abuses against the Eucharist, the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments singled out 28 "grave matters" which put "at risk the validity and dignity of the most holy Eucharist."

The 65-page instruction, titled "Redemptionis Sacramentum" ("The Sacrament of Redemption"), was approved by Pope John Paul II and released in several languages at the Vatican April 23.

It seeks to promote reverent celebration of the Mass and devotion to the Eucharist in accord with the church's liturgical norms. Its concerns range from avoiding such crimes as blasphemous desecration of the Eucharist to assuring that the liturgical roles of priests and laity are kept clearly distinct and that priests wear the proper vestments when celebrating Mass.

In a short chapter near the end titled "Remedies," the instruction distinguishes among:

-- "Graviora delicta" -- especially grave crimes against the Eucharist that are treated as crimes in church law with serious ecclesiastical penalties attached. Only the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith can try such cases.

-- Abuses that, although they do not rise to the level of ecclesiastical crimes, are "objectively ... grave matters" threatening the dignity or even the validity of the Eucharist.

-- "Other abuses" described in the instruction which do not pose a direct threat to the dignity or validity of the Eucharist but nevertheless "are not to be considered of little account, but are to be carefully avoided and corrected."

In almost every place that the instruction lists an abuse the church regards as particularly grave to the point that it harms the Eucharist's dignity or validity, it uses terminology such as "illicit," "grave abuse," "altogether forbidden," "not to be tolerated," "not permissible" or "reprobated."

The abuses condemned as especially serious range from using forbidden materials for eucharistic bread or wine to laicized priests celebrating Mass, from changing the officially approved words of the eucharistic prayers to celebrating Mass in a non-Christian temple or shrine.

Oddly, Paragraph 49, was included among the 28 singled out as references to serious abuses. That paragraph makes no mention of any illicit, reprobated or abusive practice that is not allowed. It simply offers advice that it is "appropriate" to include some parts from the fraction of the large eucharistic bread in the distribution of Communion to the faithful and adds that ordinarily "small hosts requiring no fraction ought customarily to be used for the most part" for distributing Communion to the faithful.

Here are the other 27 actions or practices highlighted by the instruction as grave abuses:

-- Using any grain other than wheat for the host, or "introducing other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey" into the bread for the hosts -- a "grave abuse."

-- Using anything other than wine made of fermented grapes, "pure and incorrupt, not mixed with other substances," in the chalice. "Other drinks of any kind ... do not constitute valid matter."

-- Using any eucharistic prayer not in the Roman Missal or not approved by the Holy See for use where the Mass is being celebrated; or making any changes in the text of that prayer.

-- Recitation of any part of the eucharistic prayer by anyone other than the priest -- deacon, lay minister, an individual in the congregation or the whole congregation. The eucharistic prayer "is to be recited by the priest alone in full."

-- Omitting the name of the pope or the local bishop in the eucharistic prayer -- violating "a most ancient tradition" that is "a manifestation of ecclesial communion."

-- While church norms fittingly recommend celebration of other sacraments in the context of Mass, "it is not permissible to unite the sacrament of penance to the Mass in such a way that they become a single liturgical celebration." This does not preclude priests from hearing confessions while Mass is going on, however.

-- Celebration of Mass "is not to be inserted in any way into the setting of a common meal." If "grave necessity" requires celebrating Mass at a table or in a dining hall or banquet room, "there is to be a clear interval of time" between the end of Mass and the meal, and other food is not to be brought in before the Mass is over.

-- It is "strictly ... an abuse" to introduce into the Mass "elements that are contrary to the prescriptions of the liturgical books and taken from the rites of other religions."

-- "It is not licit" to deny Communion to "any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law" from receiving the sacrament.

-- Communion is to be distributed on the tongue to anyone who desires it anywhere and in the hand to anyone who desires it in places where that has been approved as a practice. However, it should be consumed in the presence of the minister of Communion and it should not be given to someone in the hand "if there is a risk of profanation."

-- "It is not licit" for lay people to administer Communion to themselves or for them to hand Communion on from one to another instead of it being distributed by designated ministers. In particular, at weddings the "abuse" of the new spouses giving Communion to one another "is to be set aside."

-- "The practice is reprobated whereby either unconsecrated hosts or other edible or inedible things are distributed during the celebration of the Mass or beforehand after the manner of Communion."

-- In a diocesan bishop's decision on the circumstances under which Communion can be distributed under both kinds, "it is completely to be excluded where even a small danger exists of the sacred species being profaned."

-- The practice of Communion under both kinds for the entire congregation should be avoided when there is such a large number that "it is difficult to gauge the amount of wine for the Eucharist and there is a danger that 'more than a reasonable quantity'" will remain to be consumed after Communion.

-- In the practice of intinction, or receiving Communion under both kinds by dipping a host into the wine, "the communicant must not be permitted to intinct the host himself in the chalice nor to receive the intincted host in the hand. ... It is altogether forbidden to use nonconsecrated bread or other matter."

-- "The pouring of the blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls or other vessels." This instruction prohibits the widespread U.S. practice of placing one or more pitchers of wine on the altar before the consecration when Communion is to be distributed under both kinds, and then pouring that wine into chalices before Communion. A related instruction says there is no problem with placing multiple chalices filled with wine on the altar before the consecration, but for the sake of "sign value" the main chalice should be larger than the others.

-- Mass can never be celebrated "in a temple or sacred place of any non-Christian religion."

-- Bishops must stop "any contrary practice" to church norms that require commendatory letters not more than a year old vouching for a visiting priest's faculties to celebrate Mass or a prudential judgment by local authorities that he has such faculties.

-- Celebrations of the Mass must never be suspended "on the pretext of promoting a 'fast from the Eucharist'" as a way to heighten awareness of the importance of the Mass.

-- Sacred vessels for the Lord's body and blood "must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and the liturgical books," assuring that people of the region consider them "truly noble." Since all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist must be avoided, use of any more common vessels is "reprobated."

-- Celebration of Mass by priests wearing "only a stole over the monastic cowl or the common habit of religious or ordinary clothes, contrary to the prescriptions of the liturgical books" is strictly prohibited and a "reprobrated" abuse.

-- Reservation of the Blessed Sacrament in any place "not subject in a secure way to the authority of the diocesan bishop or where there is a danger of profanation" is forbidden.

-- "No one may carry the most holy Eucharist to his or her home or to any other place contrary to the norm of the law." Removing or retaining the Eucharist for any sacrilegious purpose or casting them away is a church crime that only the church's doctrinal congregation has authority to prosecute.

-- Priests, deacons or extraordinary ministers of Communion are forbidden to engage in any "profane business" while carrying the Eucharist to the sick or homebound.

-- Any time the Blessed Sacrament is exposed for adoration, it "must never be left unattended, even for the briefest space of time."

-- "It is never licit for laypersons to assume the role or the vesture of a priest or deacon or other clothing similar to such vesture."

-- It is never licit for a laicized priest to "celebrate the sacraments under any pretext whatsoever save in the exceptional case set forth by law" of hearing the confession of someone in immediate danger of death.


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1 posted on 04/24/2004 7:32:23 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: dsc; ninenot; ArrogantBustard; BlackElk; sandyeggo; american colleen; NYer; sartorius; All
Ping

Here are some some the specific abuses addressed. The tone is fairly strong. I guess it all depends on how much the laity holds the bishops' feet to the fire.
2 posted on 04/24/2004 7:35:01 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
It seemed to me that of the common abuses, the one they used the strongest language against was the practice of habitual use of lay extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.

Oddly, that seems to have been omitted from this article.

3 posted on 04/24/2004 7:42:15 AM PDT by B Knotts (Just another medieval Catholic)
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To: B Knotts
The thrust of this article is the Eucharist itself, not the Mass norms.

There were some things on the Eucharistic prayer, but for the most part it involves form and matter, something that truly does need to be addressed.
4 posted on 04/24/2004 7:46:17 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
" "The pouring of the blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls or other vessels." This instruction prohibits the widespread U.S. practice of placing one or more pitchers of wine on the altar before the consecration when Communion is to be distributed under both kinds, and then pouring that wine into chalices before Communion. A related instruction says there is no problem with placing multiple chalices filled with wine on the altar before the consecration, but for the sake of "sign value" the main chalice should be larger than the others. "

NOTED
5 posted on 04/24/2004 7:49:29 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: Desdemona
This instruction prohibits the widespread U.S. practice of placing one or more pitchers of wine on the altar before the consecration when Communion is to be distributed under both kinds, and then pouring that wine into chalices before Communion.

I would bet that this will be the first of these "instructions" to be changed. Carrying individual chalices up to the altar carries a much greater risk of spillage than one large pitcher of wine.

6 posted on 04/24/2004 7:56:57 AM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: Desdemona
Several years ago my wife and I volunteered to clean the church after each service. I found bread crumbs everywhere. We decided to start going to another church in the area. I now attend a church that uses the host instead of a loaf of bread and it is distributed like they did before Vatican II.
7 posted on 04/24/2004 9:45:11 AM PDT by rudyrudy
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: sartorius
We have several large parishes that simply couldn't do without EMs, intinction or no. IMO, if intinction were the option, just drop the cup completely.

The current practice works well, it's smooth in most parishes I've attended, and is well-accepted by the laity.

There are some in Rome who don't like communion under both kinds, but the American bishops are going to prevail on this, and I'd bet they prevail on continuing the use of heavy glass for distribution by the EMs.

You watch.

9 posted on 04/24/2004 9:57:50 AM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: sinkspur
I have the suspicion that if the laity knew what mortal sin really is and the need for confession, you could cut the the communion lines by 75% eliminating the EMs.

People go month after month to communion and never show up for confession during the same period.

Of course we are a Roman Catholic world of saints. Just look at the priests
11 posted on 04/24/2004 1:27:09 PM PDT by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed. Pray for our own souls to receive the grace of a happy)
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Since there really is nothing new here I'm hoping that this document is as Sartorius says, Rome saying "enough is enough."

If nothing else it gives traditonalists renewed vigor to confront liberal Priests and Bishops. In fact the document even calls for it.

I'm reminded of a brazenly open liberal parish Priest I once knew. I actually cared for this man, almost as a brother, that's how charismatic he was. But I also knew him for what he was, a man who would push the envelope in proving how much he could get away with.

Once during Holy Week he had a Parishioner bake up a batch of bread that he announced from the ambo was leavened, so be careful with the crumbs, and that we would be using it for the whole week.

I refused Communion that day, and after Mass had words with the baker. He informed Fr. what I had to say, so at the next Mass the regular Host was offered as a choice. I have never seen a liberal Priest be that concilliatory - it must have been a weak moment, or he was afraid of the consequences. It is totally illicit for someone to make Hosts without the express written permission and supervision of the Bishop. I think Fr. was afraid I would tell on him.

I only tell this story to show that the person in the pew does have some power, and that this document should give us a little more lerverage, at least for a little while, until it dies a natural death like Sacrosantum Concillium - then it will be business as usual.
12 posted on 04/24/2004 1:32:10 PM PDT by Arguss
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To: franky
I have the suspicion that if the laity knew what mortal sin really is and the need for confession, you could cut the the communion lines by 75% eliminating the EMs.

Well, I don't happen to think that the vast majority of Catholics who attend Mass every week are mortal sinners.

Catholics should certainly avail themselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, but it's highly doubtful that 20 million church-going Catholics are in a state of eternal enmity with God.

13 posted on 04/24/2004 2:22:59 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ...
Well, I don't happen to think that the vast majority of Catholics who attend Mass every week are mortal sinners.

How many use contraception Deacon? How many skip Sunday Mass now and then? How many view the pornography that populates modern television? How many "live in sin"?

14 posted on 04/24/2004 2:26:05 PM PDT by narses (Who is General Failure and why is he reading my disk?)
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To: sartorius; sinkspur; franky; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; ...
The original GIRM stated that communion under both species could be offered on special occasions. Since the consecrated host is the Body and Blood of Christ, nowhere was it anticipated that this practice would become weekly let alone daily!

Perhaps if the American Bishops want to remain obedient and in union with Rome, they could return to the TRADITIONAL practice of Communion with the Bread alone. Given Deacon Sinkspur's opinions, it appears he thinks the American Bishops will choose to DISOBEY. Is that a correct read Sinkspur?

15 posted on 04/24/2004 2:29:37 PM PDT by narses (Who is General Failure and why is he reading my disk?)
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To: narses
Communion under both kinds will continue on a regular basis.
16 posted on 04/24/2004 2:48:39 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
>>Well, I don't happen to think that the vast majority of Catholics who attend Mass every week are mortal sinners<<

You know I respect you, but on this one, at least in Cleveland, I truly think you are wrong.
Geez, in a church in Southern Michigan, they have a cross dresser as a Eucharistic Minister. Catholics are not educated enough these days as to what is sin.
17 posted on 04/24/2004 3:18:27 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Laz, where are you? Are you ok?)
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To: netmilsmom; Maximilian
So, you're on record as thinking that most of your fellow Catholics are mortal sinners.

Maximilian thinks so too, so you have at least one who agrees with you.

18 posted on 04/24/2004 3:27:55 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
I guess it's a woman thing and a small parish but yes, but the standards I was taught, very many of the people are sinners going to communion.

Simple. (and just one example) Sue, the nice lady with the kids that mine play with, only goes to church when her kids are at CCD. One week a month, no CCD. She has personally told me she does not go to confession. Is she sinning when I see her going to communion? Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I learned. Trust me, it is not my place to judge, but I see and can't care. What do you think?
19 posted on 04/24/2004 3:34:05 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Laz, where are you? Are you ok?)
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To: netmilsmom
I don't even notice who does,and who does not go to Communion. Seriously. I'm usually distributing, or, if not, I'm thanking Jesus for His Body and Blood.
20 posted on 04/24/2004 3:36:59 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
Well, I am at two masses on Sundays. One where I'm actually attending, that one I am praying. The next with my CCD group. There, I get parents waving at me. Some coming back from communion. It's not really funny.
21 posted on 04/24/2004 4:27:29 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Laz, where are you? Are you ok?)
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To: sinkspur
Well, I don't happen to think that the vast majority of Catholics who attend Mass every week are mortal sinners.
Catholics should certainly avail themselves of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, but it's highly doubtful that 20 million church-going Catholics are in a state of eternal enmity with God.

And apparently you don't see any problems with people receiving Communion without Confession. I guess sin is whatever you think it is.

I for one, don't buy the idea that when I go to Mass and literally *everyone* receives Communion, that they're all eligible to.
22 posted on 04/24/2004 6:01:25 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: sinkspur
Maximilian thinks so too, so you have at least one who agrees with you.

You're the one who's totally in the wrong here, and you're supposed to be a Deacon, too.

I've found your viewpoint seems to increasingly be about "We need to make things easier on everybody to make the Church better." That's taking the modernist route. If you feel that 2000 years of Church teaching on who and who cannot receive Eucharist then well, there's nothing really left to say, is there?
23 posted on 04/24/2004 6:04:11 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: sinkspur
Appropriate for today???

I am sure you are familiar with the following:

A portion of Saint Leonard of Port Maurice's sermon on going to hell.

A must read. For the complete sermon click on

http://www.thekolbegroup.org/thelittlenumberofthosewhoaresaved.html

"It is not vain curiosity but salutary precaution to proclaim from the height of the pulpit certain truths which serve wonderfully to contain the indolence of libertines, who are always talking about the mercy of God and about how easy it is to convert, who live plunged in all sorts of sins and are soundly sleeping on the road to hell. To disillusion them and waken them from their torpor, today let us examine this great question: Is the number of Christians who are saved greater than the number of Christians who are damned?"…

… "Pious souls, you may leave; this sermon is not for you. Its sole purpose is to contain the pride of libertines who cast the holy fear of God out of their heart and join forces with the devil. You are horror-struck at going to hell? Well then, cast yourself at the feet of Jesus Christ and say to Him, with tearful eyes and contrite heart: "Lord, I confess that up till now I have not lived as a Christian.

I am not worthy to be numbered among Your elect. I recognize that I deserve to be damned; but Your mercy is great and, full of confidence in Your grace, I say to You that I want to save my soul, even if I have to sacrifice my fortune, my honor, my very life, as long as I am saved. If I have been unfaithful up to now, I repent, I deplore, I detest my infidelity, I ask You humbly to forgive me for it. Forgive me, good Jesus, and strengthen me also, that I may be saved. I ask You not for wealth, honor or prosperity; I ask you for one thing only, to save my soul."

24 posted on 04/24/2004 6:21:32 PM PDT by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed. Pray for our own souls to receive the grace of a happy)
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To: sinkspur
It is very disturbing when at Mass the young man in front of you is chewing gum through the Mass and goes to communion with the same gum in mouth

It is also disturbing when a man and woman in the first row are whispering in each others ear while the Offertory is being said and the go to communion.

It is disturbing when on Easter morning you cannot get a seat in Church or Christmas while the rest of the year there are plenty of seats. And the whole congregation goes to communion.

No one knows who has mortal sin on their souls but just the percentage of Saturday penance candidates compared to the percentage of communicants on Saturday eve and Sunday Masses just does not come close to any balance at all.

10 go to confession and 600 receive. Come on!
25 posted on 04/24/2004 6:38:30 PM PDT by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed. Pray for our own souls to receive the grace of a happy)
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To: franky
Franky, all a priest or bishop can do is tell people who are conscious of serious sin to go to confession.

Even the new document says that no one should be denied the Eucharist unless they are prohibited by Church law. twice-a-year Catholics have been with the Church for a hundred years.

26 posted on 04/24/2004 7:15:40 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
I call them Ground Hog Christians. They come out, see their shadows and go back in their holes for 6 months.
27 posted on 04/24/2004 7:19:41 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Conservative til I die
If you feel that 2000 years of Church teaching on who and who cannot receive Eucharist then well, there's nothing really left to say, is there?

Speaking of nothing to say, what does this sentence mean?

28 posted on 04/24/2004 7:19:56 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: Conservative til I die
I for one, don't buy the idea that when I go to Mass and literally *everyone* receives Communion, that they're all eligible to.

What are you gonna do about it, short of making everyone sign an affidavit that they've been to confession within a time that you deem appropriate?

There is a lot of catechesis that needs to take place about the Sacrament of Reconciliation, but threats and brow beating are not going to bring one single soul back to the sacrament.

29 posted on 04/24/2004 7:22:25 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: Desdemona
From John L. Allen's "Word from Rome" column of April 23, 2004:

Arinze’s appearance at the Vatican news conference was in conjunction with the publication of a long-awaited document on liturgical abuses. The document was rumored to bring a Roman hammer down on a number of practices that have become common in various parts of the world: inter-communion with Protestants, for example, or liturgical dance, or altar girls.

In the end, the hammer was something of a rubber mallet.

Titled Redemptionis sacramentum, the document’s tone is juridical and frequently critical of abuses “which obviously cannot be allowed and must cease.” At the same time, many liturgists around Rome breathed a sigh of relief April 23 because the document creates no new restrictions and/or bans, and even where it is obviously lukewarm about a given practice – altar girls, for example, or communion in the hand – the document tolerates it.

Redemptionis sacramentum, according to the experts, adds nothing to existing liturgical law.

“It’s a predictable document,” said Jesuit Fr. Keith Pecklers, who teaches liturgy at Rome’s Gregorian University. “It’s obviously a further attempt at tightening the reins, but it’s much less offensive or restrictive than had been rumored.”

Arinze denied that the document amounts to a Roman crackdown.

“We didn’t crackdown on anybody,” he told NCR. “Look, it’s like soccer – you have to have some rules. If you could just score from anywhere, fighting and tossing bottles would be the result. This is much more serious, because it’s not just a game, it’s our faith.”

At the same time, Arinze did not deny the disciplinary thrust.

“There’s a sense in which, if we didn’t crackdown, somebody should crackdown on us for not doing our duty,” he said.

Other key points in the document include:

• A ban on the use of unapproved texts and rites
• The absolute necessity of an ordained priest for the celebration of the liturgy
• Use of appropriate vessels and vestments
• A ban on using non-Biblical texts for the readings and responsorial psalms
• A ban on lay people giving homilies
• An insistence on using lay ministers of the Eucharist only when there is an insufficient number of priests to distribute communion
• Laity may not hand one another consecrated hosts or the chalice
• The Mass may not be divided, with different parts celebrated at different times
• Priests always have the right to celebrate the Mass in Latin, but according to the post-Vatican II rite
• The obligation of Sunday Mass cannot be satisfied with ecumenical services
• Insistence that communion must not be given to non-Catholics and non-Christians in violation of church rules.

Despite the clear emphasis on distinguishing priests and lay persons, Arinze insisted that the spirit of the document was upholding a correct understanding of the nature of the Mass. It is not, he said, a matter of “prejudices against the laity.”

Cardinal Julian Herranz, president of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts, told reporters that the document originated in complaints about abuses that had arrived at the Vatican over the years from various parts of the world.

“At the origin of this document, as with the encyclical, was an action of the people of God in relation with the Holy See, who requested clarifications and made protests. There is a sensibility and a love of God, and people often suffer from the way in which the Lord is sometimes treated.”

Pecklers told NCR there are some clarifications that liturgists will welcome. He cited the clarification that the Eucharistic bread should not be broken in the moment of consecration, for example, or that priests should not improvise the Eucharistic prayers.

30 posted on 04/24/2004 7:38:04 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
I agree that we should not be judging our fellow Christians and should be concerned rather with our own sins, more than with those of our neighbors.

Priests on the other hand are failing their congregation by not preaching on the sacrament of reconcilliation AT ALL.

Outside of Indult masses, FSSP Chapels, and just regular Catholic Churches that are considered very conservative, I have heard the sacrament of reconcilliation mentioned exactly once. I would just like to know what is going on? Are the pews suddenly packed with Saints? Am I to be thankful that I'm surrounded by a bunch of Saints @ mass on Sunday?

No I think not. Usually when I go to Confession here @ college or at home there is rarely a line or anyone in the box and sometimes the Priest will tell me that he hasn't seen anyone for the whole hour (because of class I usually have to go a couple of minutes before the Priest stops hearing confessions)

So I don't blame the people in Communion lines, I blame the Priests and the Deacons who are failing at their jobs of spreading the truth.

But then again what do I know, I'm just a College studnet.
31 posted on 04/24/2004 8:01:10 PM PDT by FBDinNJ
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To: FBDinNJ
We always preach at least one homily during Lent on the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Our penance services during Lent and Advent usually draw between 500-700 people.

There should certainly be more catechesis on all the Sacraments.

32 posted on 04/24/2004 8:04:12 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
What is a "pennance service"?
33 posted on 04/24/2004 8:14:49 PM PDT by Romulus ("Behold, I make all things new")
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To: Romulus
What is a "pennance service"?

I fear it's the gross abuse of "general absolution", reserved for soldiers about to enter battle or others in extraordinary circumstances.

34 posted on 04/24/2004 8:22:27 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Romulus
Never heard of a penance service? If you attend an indult Mass, then you're likely not familiar with them.

Large group of priests, a formal service with prayers, examination of conscience, individual confession, then absolution by all the priests.

They're quite helpful, to a lot of people, and if you're not in a big hurry.

35 posted on 04/24/2004 8:22:54 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
Does confession take place one-on-one, privately, as you imply? Then what does "absolution by all the priests" mean? Do the priest, acting collectively, pronounce absolution over the collective congregation? If so, how is this consistent with individual confession? Furthermore, if absolution is granted individually, what is the nature of the collective action, and what's its point?
36 posted on 04/24/2004 9:04:53 PM PDT by Romulus ("Behold, I make all things new")
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To: Romulus
Do the priest, acting collectively, pronounce absolution over the collective congregation? If so, how is this consistent with individual confession?

Absolution is pronounced over the collective congregation. The requirement for a valid sacrament is the individual confession of sins to a priest, and absolution, which may be individual or collective.

Furthermore, if absolution is granted individually, what is the nature of the collective action, and what's its point?

The Sacraments of Reconciliation (Confession and the Sacrament of the Sick) may be celebrated individually or in community. Ideally, a communitarian celebration affords an opportunity for catechesis as well as the general celebration.

37 posted on 04/24/2004 9:13:11 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
There is no risk here. The smaller chalices are placed on the altar and wine is poured into them at the same time wine is poured into the primary chalice.

Where is the difficulty? The vessel that contained the wine (the flagon or pitcher) is then returned to the credence table.

No problem as far as I can see. No change to this instruction. Disobedience, maybe, but no change.
38 posted on 04/25/2004 9:22:33 AM PDT by lrslattery (Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam - http://slatts.blogspot.com)
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To: lrslattery
There is no risk here. The smaller chalices are placed on the altar and wine is poured into them at the same time wine is poured into the primary chalice.

This was the one change I noticed this morning. Msgr. poured it all before the Preface.

I'll have to go over all the directives again, but I think they were all there, except for the not altering readings. It was the psalm and it was replaced by the "seasonal" one. I think the problem was that because the Cathedral is a tourist attraction, the Mass music is in the bulletin and it was already printed. We'll see what next week brings.
39 posted on 04/25/2004 10:05:12 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
I guess it all depends on how much the laity holds the bishops' feet to the fire.

AmBishops have asbestos feet.

40 posted on 04/25/2004 11:45:01 AM PDT by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Desdemona
I guess it all depends on how much the laity holds the bishops' feet to the fire.

AmBishops have asbestos feet.

41 posted on 04/25/2004 11:45:04 AM PDT by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Romulus
What is a "pennance service"?

That occurs when the Bishop and the Auxilliary Bishop enter the Sacred Space at the terminus of the newly-constructed labyrinth installed behind the Cathedral. Prepared to engage in a face-off, their Crosiers nervously being tapped on the ground, the Bishops anxiously await the Papal Nuncio's dropping of the latest Liturgical Law. When it is dropped the Bishops start flailing away at it until it is totally eviscerated and he who is judged by the NCCB as being the "winner" gets to keep his Bishopric even though he is a pederast.

His Penance consists in publicly acknowledging some recent problems in the American Church and bemoaning the fact; " mistakes were made."

42 posted on 04/25/2004 12:01:44 PM PDT by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: sinkspur
What are you gonna do about it, short of making everyone sign an affidavit that they've been to confession within a time that you deem appropriate?

As usual, you miss the point by about 1000 yards. What a shock.

My point has nothing to do with who *I* feel should receive Communion or not. It's that there's a very infinitesmal chance that everyone who receives Communion is worthy to receive it at that time. It's sacrilege to receive Communion when you're not in a state of grace.

I mean, really, this is basic Church doctrine since like, New Testament times.

It dissappoints me that Catholics are either so ignorant of their religion to not know, or so brazen and arrogant as not to care what the rules are for the holiest Sacrament we have.

And btw, no one is making threats, demanding affadavits, or brow beating anyone, as you stated throuh your nominally asanine and hysterical hyperbole.

As a Deacon, I thought you might be concerned for the souls of people profaning the Sacrament.
43 posted on 04/25/2004 12:13:07 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
You have no solution,just nasty, rude, buffoonish replies.

Catechesis is the only way to turn things around.

That, and to stop acting as if every little thing people do puts them in danger of losing their souls.

44 posted on 04/25/2004 12:23:51 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
Catechesis is the only way to turn things around.

Humility is another (i.e., submitting one's self to the Authority of the Church, and not one's own opinion of what they are comfortable with calling sin.

That, and to stop acting as if every little thing people do puts them in danger of losing their souls.

Hmmmm, no one here did that. It's just you employing the usual hysterics.

But, duly noted that you're against calling profaning of the Sacrament for what it is, Deacon. Wouldn't want to hurt anyone's self-esteem I guess. Better to allow them to endanger their souls to a life of hellfire.
45 posted on 04/25/2004 12:41:01 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
But, duly noted that you're against calling profaning of the Sacrament for what it is, Deacon.

Wrong, again. And, no solution from you, again.

46 posted on 04/25/2004 1:50:16 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
This past Easter Mass at 11 AM had a packed house. The priest had an opportunity to explain missing mass, unless under certain circumstances, was a mortal sin and that these people must go to confession before receiving.

The priest made his comment and his question was, how is it the 8 Am and the 11 AM masses were so full...and that was it.

I sat there itching to get up and tell it like it is and I just kept saying to myself, tell them, tell them. He didn't

47 posted on 04/25/2004 3:42:44 PM PDT by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed. Pray for our own souls to receive the grace of a happy)
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To: sinkspur
"That, and to stop acting as if every little thing people do puts them in danger of losing their souls."

Uh chief, you got it backward. Stop acting like committing a mortal sin will still get you into heaven. You can't possibly think that we all are committing less sins than in in the past? Certainly less people are going to confession that in the past. You seem to minimize our obligations to Christ and maximize lefty, kumbaya pop culture wisdom.
48 posted on 04/26/2004 7:03:21 AM PDT by johnb2004
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To: johnb2004
Have a nice day, John. Don't you have a beam in your own eye to work on?
49 posted on 04/26/2004 7:19:56 AM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: Desdemona
-- Using any grain other than wheat for the host, or "introducing other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey" into the bread for the hosts -- a "grave abuse."

This has been going on at our parish periodically. The host is baked with leavening and honey. I've gone over this with our priest and the woman who bakes them. They may have eliminated the honey, but they still add leavening. This will come in handy. They will be getting copies.

50 posted on 04/26/2004 8:41:58 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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