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MARIAN DEVOTION - Akathist Hymn to the Mother of God
Various ^

Posted on 05/03/2004 8:48:00 AM PDT by NYer

Akathist Hymn
to the Mother of God


 

Kontakion
To you, / powerful Queen and Ruler,
we sing/ this song of praise to you, Mother of God.
Since you/ have unconquerable power,
Protect us/ from all danger so that we may sing to you:
Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden - ever-pure!

 

Ode 1

From the Soul
An archangel was sent from Heaven, to greet the Mother of God. And as he saw You, O Lord, assuming human form, he stood rapt in amazement and cried out to her in these words:

Rejoice, O you, though whom joy will shine forth!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Rejoice, O restoration of the fallen Adam!
Rejoice, O redemption of the tears of Eve!

Rejoice, O height, beyond human understanding!
Rejoice, O depth, not fathomed by the angels!
Rejoice, for you are the Throne of the King!
Rejoice, for you carried Him, Who carries all!

Rejoice, O morning star who manifests the Sun!
Rejoice, O womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Rejoice, O you, through whom Creation is renewed!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Knowing that she was pure, the most blessed Virgin quickly answered Gabriel saying: "My soul is unable to understand Your mysterious words. How is it, that you speak of a birth that is to come from a conception without seed, and sing: Alleluia?"

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 2

From the Soul
Trying to grasp the meaning of this mystery, the Virgin asked the holy messenger of God: "How is it possible that a son be born of a virginal womb? Tell me." But instead he answered her with great awe, crying out in these words:

Rejoice, Hidden secret of God's ineffable Plan!
Rejoice, for you believed in the Mystery unrevealed!
Rejoice, for you are the beginning of the miracles of Christ!
Rejoice, for you are the crown of the truths concerning Him!

Rejoice, O heavenly Ladder, by which God came down!
Rejoice, O Bridge, leading those on earth to heaven!
Rejoice, O Miracle, most-wondrous to the angels!
Rejoice, O Wound, bewailed by the demons!

Rejoice, for you gave birth to the glorious Light!
Rejoice, for you did not revel how it was done!
Rejoice, for you surpass the wisdom of the wise!
Rejoice, for you enlighten the minds of the faithful!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
When the power of the Most High overshadowed the one who is blessed among women, her fruitful womb conceived. She became for all a wondrous field — for those who wish to reap salvation while singing: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 3

From the Soul
Bearing God in her womb the Virgin hastened to Elizabeth, whose unborn child immediately recognized her greeting and rejoiced. Leaping up as if in song, he cried out to the Mother of God:

Rejoice, O Vine, bearing the unfolding Bloom!
Rejoice, O Land, who bears immortal Fruit!
Rejoice, O you, who cared for the Lover of mankind!
Rejoice, O you, who gave birth to the Giver of life!

Rejoice, O Field, bearing a wealth of compassion!
Rejoice, O Table, laden with gifts of mercy!
Rejoice, for you make Paradise blossom in beauty again!
Rejoice, for you prepare a haven for our souls!

Rejoice, most pleasing Incense of intercession!
Rejoice, Offering for the whole world!
Rejoice, good will of God unto all mankind
Rejoice, Confidence of all before God.

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Joseph, a righteous man, was overcome by doubt and contradiction. He feared that You, all-blameless One, had been deluded by someone until he learned that Your conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph cried out: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 4

From the Soul
The Shepherds heard the angels singing hymns of praise to Christ, who had come to earth in human flesh. They hurried to Him as would the flock to its Master and upon seeing God as the spotless Lamb nurtured from the womb of Mary, they greeted her saying:

Rejoice, Mother of the Lamb and the Shepherd!
Rejoice, Fold of spiritual lambs!
Rejoice, Protection against invisible foes!
Rejoice, Key to the doors of Paradise!

Rejoice, for the heavens rejoice with the earth!
Rejoice, for the earth sings praise with the heavens!
Rejoice, unceasing glory of the Apostles!
Rejoice, unconquerable courage of the Martyrs!

Rejoice, O firm foundation of faith!
Rejoice, O radiant recognition of grace!
Rejoice, O you through whom hell was stripped bare!
Rejoice, O you through whom we are clothed with glory.

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
When they saw God's wondrous Star, the Magi followed its glittering light as they would a beacon, in search of a mighty King. And having found Him, they drew near the unapproachable One, rejoicing and exclaiming: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 5

 From the Soul
When the sons of Chaldea beheld in the hands of the Virgin, Him, the Creator, who had fashioned mankind by His own Hand, they recognized in Him their Master, even though He had come as a tiny Babe. And so they hastened to honour Him with gifts and to the greet the most-blessed of all women:

Rejoice, O Mother of the never-setting Star!
Rejoice, O Dawn of the Mystic day!
Rejoice, O you, who quenched the furnace of error,
Rejoice, O you, who guard the disciples of the Holy Trinity!

Rejoice, for you banished from power the merciless tyrant!
Rejoice, for you made manifest Christ the Lord, the Lover of Mankind,
Rejoice, for you have delivered us from pagan worship!
Rejoice, for you freed us from unclean deeds.

Rejoice, O you who suppressed the worship of fire!
Rejoice, O you who quench the flames of the passions!
Rejoice, O Guide of the faithful towards wisdom!
Rejoice, O Joy of all generations!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Having fulfilled Your prophecy, O Lord, the Magi returned to Babylon as God-bearing heralds. They preached to all and witnessed to You as the Christ, leaving Herod behind as a fool, who could not sing: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 6

From the Soul
Illuminating Egypt with the light of Truth, You dispelled the darkness of sin and seduction, O Saviour. The idols of that land fell down, unable to withstand Your power and all who were delivered from them greeted the Mother of God:

Rejoice, elation of mankind!
Rejoice, downfall of the demons!
Rejoice, for you crushed the power of deceit!
Rejoice, for you exposed the fraud of idols!

Rejoice, for like the Red Sea, you have drowned the Pharaoh of duplicity!
Rejoice, for like the rock, you have given drink to those who thirst for life!
Rejoice, Pillar of fire, guiding those in darkness!
Rejoice, Protection of the world, broader that the clouds!

Rejoice, O Successor to manna!
Rejoice, O Servant of the Banquet Divine!
Rejoice, O Promised Land!
Rejoice, Land of milk and honey!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
When Simeon was soon to leave this deceitful world, You were brought to him as a Child. Taking You into his arms he recognized You as the true God, and marveling at Your ineffable wisdom, he cried out: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 7

From the Soul
The Creator revealed a new creation when He came down to us, His creation. He came forth from a womb that had received no seed, preserving it intact as it was before, so that seeing this miracle we might sing to the Mother of God:

Rejoice, O Flower of incorruption!
Rejoice, O Garland of purity!
Rejoice, O you, who shine as a sign of the resurrection!
Rejoice, O you, who reveal the life of the angels!

Rejoice, Tree of good fruit from which the faithful feed!
Rejoice, shady Glen where many find shelter!
Rejoice, for you gave birth to the Saviour of the captives!
Rejoice, for you gave birth to the Leader for the lost!

Rejoice, Intercessor before the Just Judge!
Rejoice, Forgiveness of many sins!
Rejoice, Hope of the hopeless!
Rejoice, Tenderness beyond all expectations!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Seeing this miraculous birth, let us become strangers to the world and fix our minds on Heaven. Indeed, it is for this reason that the God Most-High appeared on earth: e became a humble man, desiring to draw up to heaven all those who cry out to Him: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 8

 From the Soul
The Word unfathomed was wholly present here below, yet in no way absent from the realm on high. For this was a Divine Descent and not a change of place. His birth was from a Virgin who received God, as she heard these words:

Rejoice, Vessel of the uncontainable God!
Rejoice, Gate of Solemn Mystery!
Rejoice, Unheard Message for unbelievers!
Rejoice, highest Praise of the faithful!

Rejoice, most holy chariot of Him, who rides upon the Cherubim!
Rejoice, most glorious Dwelling of the One above the Seraphim!
Rejoice, O you, who joined opposites!
Rejoice O you, who united virginity and motherhood!

Rejoice, O you, through whom sin was absolved!
Rejoice, O you, through whom paradise was re-opened!
Rejoice, Key to the Kingdom of Christ!
Rejoice, Hope of eternal blessing!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Soul
All the angelic hosts were amazed at Your Incarnation, for they saw God, Whom no one can approach, as a man, approachable by all. He came to dwell among us and He heard from all: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 9

From the Soul
Worldly speakers become mute as fish before you, O Mother of God, for they are at a loss to say how you remained a virgin and yet were able to bear a child. As for us, while marveling at this mystery, we cry out to you with faith:

Rejoice, Vessel of the Wisdom of God!
Rejoice, Treasury of His Providence!
Rejoice, Reproof of foolish philosophers!
Rejoice, for the eloquent become speechless before you!

Rejoice, for the clever have made fools of themselves!
Rejoice, for the myth-makers have been silenced!
Rejoice, for you dispelled the Athenian snares!
Rejoice, for you filled the nets of the fishermen!

Rejoice, O you, who draw us from the depths of ignorance!
Rejoice, O Lamplight of understanding to many!
Rejoice, O Ship, for all who seek salvation!
Rejoice, O Harbour, in the voyage of life!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Soul
Wishing to save the world, the Creator of all came to us as He had promised. Being our God and our Shepherd, out of love for us He took flesh and appeared to all. As man - he called out to all mankind; and as God - he heard from us: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 10

From the Soul
O Virgin, Mother of God, you are the strength of virgins and of all those who take refuge in you. For the Creator of heaven and earth gave you to be our Protectress, O Pure One. He dwelt in your womb and taught all to cry out to you:

Rejoice, Pillar of virginity!
Rejoice, Gate of salvation!
Rejoice, Leader of spiritual renewal!
Rejoice, Bestower of God's grace!

Rejoice, for you restore those conceived in sin!
Rejoice, for you counsel those lost in their understanding!
Rejoice, for you stopped the corrupter of hearts!
Rejoice, for you gave birth to the Sower of Chastity!

Rejoice, bridal Chamber of a betrothal without seed!
Rejoice, for you joined the faithful to their Lord!
Rejoice, gracious Mother of virgins!
Rejoice, Bridal escort of Holy souls!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
The greatest song of praise cannot compare with the multitude of Your mercies, O Holy King! We could sing to You as many songs as there are grains of sand, and yet do nothing worthy of what You have given to us, who cry out to You: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 11

From the Heart
We see the holy Virgin as a light-bearing lamp, appearing to those who live in darkness. For she is the one who kindled the immaterial Light, and now, she leads all mankind to the knowledge of God. She fills ours minds with radiance and is worthy of being praised in these words:

Rejoice, Ray of the Living Sun!
Rejoice, Radiance, unfading in splendor!
Rejoice, Lightning-flash that enlightens our souls!
Rejoice, Thunder-clap, that strikes down all foes!

Rejoice, for you caused the many-starred Light to dawn,
Rejoice, for you caused the ever-flowing River to spring,
Rejoice, Icon of the baptismal font,
Rejoice, for you wash away the stain of sin!

Rejoice, flowing water, that cleanses the conscience!
Rejoice, holy Vessel, overflowing with joy!
Rejoice, Fragrance of the sweetness Christ!
Rejoice, Life of the Mystical Banquet!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Soul
The Lord, who settles all men's scores, desired to make right the ancient debts by means of grace. He came of His own will to those who had fallen from His grace and He tore up the record of their wrong-doings. From all He hears: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 12

From the Soul
As we sing of Your childbirth, we praise you as the living Temple, O Mother of God. For the Lord, Who holds all things in His Hand made His dwelling in Your womb. He hallowed and He glorified You, teaching all to sing to You:

Rejoice, O Tabernacle of God the Word!
Rejoice, O Holy One, greater than the Holies!
Rejoice, O Ark, made golden by the Spirit!
Rejoice, O inexhaustible Treasury of life!

Rejoice, precious Crown of pious Kings!
Rejoice, sacred glory of reverent priests!
Rejoice, invincible tower of the Church!
Rejoice, indestructible Wall of the kingdom!

Rejoice, O you, through whom Victory is assured!
Rejoice, O you, through whom enemies are cast down!
Rejoice, O Healing of my body!
Rejoice, O Salvation of my soul!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

 

Kontakion
O Mother worthy of all praise;
you who have given birth to the Word,
the Holiest of the Holy,
accept this present offering, deliver us from all affliction,
and save from the future punishment those who cry out to you:
Alleluia!

  

Final Ode

From the Soul
To you, O powerful Queen and Ruler, we sing this song of praise to you, Mother of God. Since you have unconquerable power, protect us from all danger so that we may sing to you: Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

An archangel was sent from Heaven, to greet the Mother of God. And as he saw You, O Lord, assuming human form, he stood rapt in amazement and cried out to her in these words :

Rejoice, O you, though whom joy will shine forth!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Rejoice, O restoration of the fallen Adam!
Rejoice, O redemption of the tears of Eve!

Rejoice, O height, beyond human understanding!
Rejoice, O depth, not fathomed by the angels!
Rejoice, for you are the Throne of the King!
Rejoice, for you carried Him, Who carries all!

Rejoice, O morning star who manifests the Sun!
Rejoice, O womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Rejoice, O you, through whom Creation is renewed!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

 

Prayer to the Mother of God

All: O Most Holy Sovereign Lady and Mother of God, powerful to all good, receive from your unworthy servants this praiseworthy hymn, which is due to you alone, for you have been chosen from among the human race and are higher than all celestial and earthly creatures. For through you, our Almighty Lord has dwelt among us; through you, we have come to know the Son of God and are honoured to have his Most Holy Body and Most Precious Blood. Thus you are blessed among all generations.

You are higher in honour than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious that the Seraphim. O most-honourable and most holy Mother of God, do not cease to pray for us today, your unworthy servants, so that we may be protected against the guile of the evil one; from his greediness; and that we be delivered unharmed from the his deadly temptations.

Protect us with your prayer until the end of our life and before the eternal judgment; that we, being saved by your help and intercession, might give glory, praise, thanksgiving and honour for all, to the Holy Trinity, One God and Creator of all creatures, now and always and forever. Amen.

 

Dismissal

Priest: Wisdom!

All: Higher in honour than the Cherubim* and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim.* Who a virgin, gave birth to the Word of God,* you truly are the Mother of God and we praise you!

Priest: Glory to You, Christ God, Our Hope, glory to You!

All: †Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now, and forever, and unto ages of ages. Amen. Lord, have mercy (3). Give the blessing!

Priest: May Christ our True God, through the prayers of his most pure Mother and those all the Saints, have mercy on us and save us, for he is good and the Lover of mankind.

All: Amen.

 

Rejoice Virgin Mary

Rejoice Virgin Mary, Full of Grace!
O Theotokos, the Lord is with you!
Blessed are you among women!
and blessed is the fruit of your womb:
For you have given birth,
to the Saviour of our souls (2).


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KEYWORDS: marianism; maryworship
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The Akathist Hymn is a profound, devotional poem or chant, which sings the praises of the Holy Mother and Ever-Virgin Mary (Theotokos). Devotional Hymns to the Theotokos are as ancient as the first Christian Church. The Byzantine Empire from its very inception at Constantinople during the fourth century, closely allied itself to the Virgin Mary and always sort Her protection or intercessions. This we see from the Prayer Services to the Theotokos between the fifth and eighth centuries, and the reference to Constantinople as the 'Queen City'.

The Akathist Hymn was not strange to the Latin West even though apart from the Eastern Church. Pope Benedict XIV granted on May 4, 1746 an indulgence of 50 days to the Latin and Eastern Rite Roman Catholics, for each recitation of the Hymn.

Fr. Vincent McNabb, a Roman Catholic Priest in London, translated the Hymn into English in 1934. In his forward remarks he stated "No apology is needed for introducing the Akathistos to the Christian West. Indeed the West might well be apologetic about its neglect, or ignorance of such a liturgical and literary masterpiece".

1 posted on 05/03/2004 8:48:03 AM PDT by NYer
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To: american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; ..
A beautiful devotion to the Blessed Mother, as we enter the Month of May.
2 posted on 05/03/2004 8:49:59 AM PDT by NYer (O Promise of God from age to age. O Flower of the Gospel!)
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To: NYer
Oh goodie, some Marian stuff. How about some DeMontfort.
3 posted on 05/03/2004 8:55:27 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer
Thank you for posting this beautiful hymn honoring the Theotokos. (Certainly makes any OCP hymn pale in comparison...) Some of you probably already have, but if you ever get a chance to hear it sung live or even on a CD, be sure not to miss it. It's even more beautiful and awe-inspiring when it's sung. Almost other-worldly. Such a beautiful and rich tradition. I have heard it live and have a tape of it and am searching for a link.
5 posted on 05/03/2004 8:59:54 AM PDT by fortunecookie
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To: biblewonk
You know who REALLY hates Marian stuff? James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.
6 posted on 05/03/2004 9:00:18 AM PDT by jtminton (Ask me about my turn paper. It's about diaramas.)
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To: jtminton
You know who REALLY hates Marian stuff? James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.

It wasn't invented yet.

7 posted on 05/03/2004 9:32:45 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: biblewonk
Well, they probably hate it now.
8 posted on 05/03/2004 9:35:33 AM PDT by jtminton (Ask me about my turn paper. It's about diaramas.)
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To: NYer
The Byzantine Empire from its very inception at Constantinople during the fourth century, closely allied itself to the Virgin Mary and always sort Her protection or intercessions.

Too bad Jesus wasn't available. Things might have gone better.

9 posted on 05/03/2004 10:07:51 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54; biblewonk
If you can't say anything but the typical Protestant rant, take your comments elsewhere. They're not welcome here.
10 posted on 05/03/2004 10:11:28 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480
If you can't say anything but the typical Protestant rant, take your comments elsewhere. They're not welcome here.

I didn't know there were private threads here.

11 posted on 05/03/2004 10:19:52 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: sartorius
It is not our view that every doctrine of Christianity must appear whole, explicit, and often, in the pages of the Bible.

Now that is an understatement.

13 posted on 05/03/2004 10:44:12 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: jtminton
Yeah, it must have been really painful to hear their aunt entrusted to a non-relative:

Behold, the MOTHER of YOU (singular).

Either way you interpret this bible verse, it's gonna disprove a Protestant position, because in the Greek, "you" is exclusively singular. The two ways of taking this (both of which are true.)

1. In the HISTORICAL sense, this was spoken to the disciple John. Jesus is dying on the cross, and puts John in charge of taking care of his mother in his corporeal absence. By using the singular form of "you," he reveals that Mary has no other children in this sense. If James, Joseph, Simon and Jude [/Judas] were her children, this statement would have been proclaiming them disowned, an inconceivably harsh response, given the forgiveness extended Peter just a chapter later.

2. In the PROPHETIC sense, this statement is declared to the reader of the gospel. Note that the disciple is not directly identified as John, but rather as the beloved disciple. In this sense, the reader becomes the singular person who is commanded to behold his mother.

So who are James, Joseph, Simon and Jude? The Greek word used to describe their relation to Jesus means either "cousins" or "brothers." However, as used, their is a seperate Greek word for "cousins" which may have otherwise been used; using a Greek word which can also mean "brothers," exclusively, would be a rarer usage in this context. And while it is a rarer usage, it is by no means unprecedented.

... Except when one remembers that Jesus wasn't speaking Greek, but rather Hebrew or Aramaic, which don't have a seperate word for "cousins." Even if Jesus had meant "cousins," he would have said, in Aramaic, "brothers." Hence, a direct translation from Aramaic to Greek would have used the Greek word chosen by the evangelists.

Many Orthodox Christians insist simultaneously that Mary was ever-virgin AND that Jesus had brothers! None of the early cultures had any language whatsoever for "half" brothers. Catholic and Orthodox legends agree that Joseph was much older than Mary. According to the Orthodox, Joseph had children by a previous wife, including, James, "the brother of Jesus," also called, "the elder." But such children would have been seen as children of Mary. To further complicate matters, there is another Mary "of Clopas," and ancient maps equate the Clopas with Alphaeus.

Reconcile these names:

"Mary, the mother of James"
"James, of Alphaeus... Judas, the brother of James"
"Jude, servant of Christ and brother of James"
"James, brother of Christ"
"James and Joseph, sons of Mary"
"Mary, the wife of Clophas, and Mary

So, there was a Mary besides the mother of Jesus, who had sons named James, Jude/Judas, and Joseph/Joses. The Protestant position would insist:

Jesus had brothers named James, Joseph, and Judas who were his travelling companions. He also chose apostles who were named James and Judas, who were not his brothers. He also had travelling companions who were brothers, but who were not his brothers, and who were not chosen apostles, who were brothers named James, Joseph and Judas. James his brother (of Joseph) he made authoritative to write scripture, but James his disciple (of Alphaeus), he made authoritative to govern the church in Jerusalem.

If we assert that James "the brother of Jesus" is in fact also James "the son of [or, from] Alphaeus," and also James "the son of Mary... of Clopas" than we have a much smaller cast and the bizarre coincidences disappear.
14 posted on 05/03/2004 10:45:43 AM PDT by dangus
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To: sartorius
Anti-Marian verses

******************* Mother of God *************

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I had to add Gen 3 to build on mat 11:11. Both show that Jesus is not of Mary's seed since here we see that seed does NOT mean physical seed. If it did it would have to mean that for the serpent too.

Mat: 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

In other words He is not of Mary. She is not His mother genetically. He did not come from one of her eggs. Sure he came through her but he is not of her.

Mat 12:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:31-35 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for the.
and he answered them, saying, who is my mother, or my brethren?
And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother and my sister, and mother.

Luke 11:27,28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare these and the paps which thou has sucked.
but he said, Yea rather , blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Gal 4:22-31:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice that there really is a mother of the church and it isn't Mary! Once again Mary is not even mentioned.

Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisdec.

Heb 7: 1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Melchizedek is a type of Christ and is a priest of a higher order than Aaron. His priesthood is typified by being based on merit and not on blood and it is an eternal priesthood. This verse shows that in the sense of Jesus has no mother or father. Jesus has no mother or father physically like Melchizedek but in what sense if the Father His Father? We know that Jesus was not created so it is really positionally that the Father is His Father. This shows that the whole idea and title of "Mother of God" is anti-scriptural. b>

*************** Ever Virgin *************

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Normal reading of this says they had sex after she bore the Lord.

*********** Queen of Heaven *********

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

Jer 44:19 The women also said, "And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands' permission?"

Jer 44:25 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: "You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, "We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her." You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!'

Mat 22: 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:22

Luke 20:29

The fact that we are not given in marriage in heaven is repeated 3 times and usually with an exhortation about knowing the scriptures. The only reference to a queen of heaven is of a pagan idol. The rational for Mary being the Bride of the Holy Spirit is removed because we are not given in marriage in Heaven. The idea of her being Queen mother in heaven doesn’t work because if we don’t have wives in heaven, we don’t have kids in heaven. The Idea of Mary being the Mother of God and the wife of the Holy Spirit and the recipient of prayers makes her the 4th part of a man made quadiny.

****** Verses about Mary being assumed into heaven *****

None

******* Verses about Immaculate Conception of Mary *****

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

******* Verses about Mary distributing Grace ******

None

******* Verses that say to pray to dead people ******

None

15 posted on 05/03/2004 10:46:00 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: sartorius
I would add that when Jesus calls Mary "Woman," he is using the same play on words Genesis recorded: "Eve" meaning "Woman." Hence, the assertion that Mary is the New Eve is recalled not only in her perfect submission to God (as noted in the Lucan infancy narrative), but also in the manner Jesus himself addresses her:

"Woman, why do you trouble me with this?"
"Woman, behold your son."

Also, note that the same Johannine bible passage depicts Jesus transforming water into wine at the request of his mother. Keep in mind the symbolism: Water, representing cleansing from sin by subtraction (judgment), is transformed into wine, the Blood of Christ, through which we receive mercy and are saved. So note: God the Son first revealed his mercy to mankind at the direction of his mother!

(Does this constitute worship of Mary? Certainly not: She instructs the waiters (priests) simply to "do as he tells you to." To worship is to place oneself in the service of another. It is Christ's will which we obey; her will is in union with his.)
16 posted on 05/03/2004 10:57:35 AM PDT by dangus
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To: biblewonk
It IS our belief that public revelation was complete within the Bible. How is this different from Sola Scriptura?

Sola Scriptura, as used presently by Protestants, essentiall presumes the negative on all matters of conflict between Catholics and Protestants. But the negation itself is a presumption, and therefore violates Sola Scriptura.

Does the bible tell us Mary was conceived immaculate? Not directly. It also does not tell us she was NOT conceived immaculate. We have to infer.

The Protestant position (that she was not) has its merits: the bible does say "All have sinned." But there are exceptions to many other apparently absolute statements: Enoch and Elijah did not suffer earthly death, even though "all" people do. Jesus says, "No one has seen the Father," but Jacob did.

The Catholic position is that the Temple which bears the Word of God must be immaculate. Granting this, does it make sense that she was
1. made pure through an instrument other than Christ.
2. was created pure in the first place.

Since Jesus calls her Eve, and notion 1 is harder to reconcile with the role Jesus plays in the world than notion 2 is, the Catholic Church chooses notion 2.
17 posted on 05/03/2004 11:14:48 AM PDT by dangus
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: dangus
The Catholic position is that the Temple which bears the Word of God must be immaculate. Granting this, does it make sense that she was

There is absolutely no reason to grant or believe that. It is purely invention. It is not suggested in the bible at all.

19 posted on 05/03/2004 11:43:46 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: sartorius
By what authority does your exegesis refute mine? I defer to the exegesis of the Fathers of the Church who knew Jesus and heard His teachings first hand. People who were of the time of Jesus and knew His culture intimately. They knew the "senses" of Scripture in addition to the literal alone.

Your type of authority is the same type used by the Pharasees(sp). You stand on tradition and name dropping, I stand on the Word alone. There is no scriptural mention of a second Eve ever anywhere. The woman in Revelation is Israel but you've heard that before from other "unauthorized" non Catholics.

20 posted on 05/03/2004 11:48:15 AM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: biblewonk
I stand on the Word alone

You stand on your interpretation. Trying to claim that your opinion about the Bible isn't interpretation and ours is, is nothing more than special pleading.

For example:

The woman in Revelation is Israel

Says who? Revelation doesn't identify her by name as "Israel" or anyone else. So you aren't "standing on the word alone," you just added your interpretative opinion to it.

Incidentally, if the woman is "Israel," then who are "the rest of" Israel's children, "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (v. 12:17)?

21 posted on 05/03/2004 11:58:27 AM PDT by Campion
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To: biblewonk
Verses that say to pray to dead people

Which people in heaven are dead?

22 posted on 05/03/2004 11:59:29 AM PDT by Campion
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: Campion
Incidentally, if the woman is "Israel," then who are "the rest of" Israel's children, "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (v. 12:17)?

"Salvation is of Israel" All the saints, the biblicas sense not the RC sense, would be the rest of Israel's offspring.

24 posted on 05/03/2004 12:02:39 PM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: Campion; newgeezer
You stand on your interpretation.

I'm always amused and interested at how many people who never read the bible are so quick to use the term "interpretation" on me. I don't know how much you read it but it is just an observation.

25 posted on 05/03/2004 12:03:53 PM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: Campion
Which people in heaven are dead?

A shortcut in speach as Paul himself often uses.

26 posted on 05/03/2004 12:04:49 PM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: biblewonk
All the saints, the biblicas sense not the RC sense, would be the rest of Israel's offspring.

Caiaphas was one of Israel's offspring. Do you include him?

Judas Iscariot was one of Israel's offspring. Do you include him?

John 1:13 says that God's children are not born that way of natural descent. Sounds like you think they are. Shall I trust you, or the Word alone?

27 posted on 05/03/2004 12:07:22 PM PDT by Campion
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To: biblewonk
Which people in heaven are dead?
28 posted on 05/03/2004 12:07:41 PM PDT by Campion
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To: biblewonk
I'm always amused and interested at how many people who never read the bible

What does that have to do with me?

29 posted on 05/03/2004 12:08:30 PM PDT by Campion
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To: dangus; sartorius; biblewonk
I think Protestants don't give enough credit to Mary and the truly humble person she must have been to be chosen by God. Also, I think sartorius did a wonderful job in laying out what I would have called a Calvinist case with two exceptions.

To say Mary was sinless is non-Biblical. There are no exceptions to the "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" verse. That's a pretty inclusive statement and includes Enoch and Elijah. Some believe these two who have not tasted death are scheduled to come back to earth in the last days.

Also, when Jesus was told that His mother and brothers were outside Jesus asked the retorical question, "Who are My mother and brothers but these who do the will of My Father." Not the kind of response one would have expected Jesus to say about the mother of God.
30 posted on 05/03/2004 12:44:07 PM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: biblewonk
*****"The woman in Revelation is Israel "***

I never heard that one before. I used to think the woman in Revelation was the Church, which seems more plausible.
31 posted on 05/03/2004 12:44:21 PM PDT by Gotterdammerung
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To: sartorius
The concept of sola-scriptura is like that of the trinity. Neither is mentioned specifically. But I don't recall any mention of a new Eve in the bible at all.
32 posted on 05/03/2004 12:48:03 PM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: biblewonk
>> I had to add Gen 3 to build on mat 11:11. Both show that Jesus is not of Mary's seed since here we see that seed does NOT mean physical seed. If it did it would have to mean that for the serpent too. <<

It PRECISELY is a reference to Christ! "Her seed" refers to Jesus, who crushes the head of the Serpent!

>>In other words He is not of Mary. She is not His mother genetically. He did not come from one of her eggs. Sure he came through her but he is not of her. <<

To deny that He is not of her genes is to say that he is not of her flesh; and by saying that, you say that he is not of anyone's flesh. Yet, he repeatedly calls himself, "the Son of Man." You have denied the human nature of Christ! Please be careful using your own reasoning to construct arguments, for you are denying basic doctrines which are held by ALL those who proclaim to be Christian.

The passages of Matthew and Mark 3 answer the problem posed by John 19 ("Behold your mother"): We may ask, "If we ARE commanded to behold our Mother, how can we, for she is not with us?" Thus we receive the answer that we do so by obeying the Church. YOu are playing one passage from scripture off another one; that means you don't understand either. Surely scripture does reserve a special place for Mary:
"Hail thee, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee... Blessed are tou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."
"From age to age, all nations shall call me blessed."
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."

>> This verse shows that in the sense of Jesus has no mother or father. <<

No, this passage is talking about Christ, which does not proceed either from the Father, or from any flesh. Using the passage the way you use it, you could not call Jesus the Son of God, either. But, God the Son is the Son of God the Father, and since both his natures are joined in one person, God the Son is also Son of the Mother of God, who is the Daughter of Adam (Man), hence, God the Son is the Son of Man.

I suspect the Protestant reformers would rend their shirts, beat their chests and gnash their teeth, screaming in horror if they could foresee that they would eventually lead their flock into such grave and horrible beliefs!


>> Normal reading of this says they had sex after she bore the Lord.<<

Normal reading of an English translation, that is. Even in English "till" doesn't necessarily mean the exclusion of persistence. "We have to stay awake until midnight" does not mean that you must sleep after midnight. What is conveyed here is the miraculous nature of a virgin birth, not the expression of when they began to have sex. Had it been the way you read it, it would say "until AFTER they she gave birth," or else it would imply they began having sex almost immediately after she gave birth!

>> Queen of Heaven <<

Mixing metaphors. Isaiah 14 calls Satan "the morning star." (Lucifer, or Phosphorus.) Yet, Revelations 2 and 22 call Christ himself that.

>> Verses about Mary being assumed into Heaven: none <<

Read Revelations 12. But, yes, that was prophecy: It hadn't happened yet.

>> Verses about praying to dead people: none <<

Yes, thanks to Martin Luther. After he lost a debate about the existence of purgatory, Luther struck 14 books of the bible, including 7 New Testament books, insisting they must not be authentic. Note, unlike modern protestants, he did not say he did not believe in them because they were not authentic, but rather that he could not believe in them because they were not authentic. Only because of Calvinists and Anglicans did the 7 New Testament books work their way back into the Protestant bible.

In one of the books, 2 Maccabees, the Feast of the Dedication is established, as a result of prayers to dead people. But Luther could not completely erase the truth, for the gospels themselved depict Jesus attending the Temple for that feast. If praying for the dead is evil, why would the gospels have recorded Jesus in the context of a feast day which flowed from such an evil?

>> Verses about Mary distributing Grace: none<<

YOu have already forgotten, or ignored, what I said about John 2: Jesus converted water into wine, the symbol of his mercy, forgiveness and redeptive death, at the bequest of his mother.

>>The Idea of Mary being the Mother of God and the wife of the Holy Spirit and the recipient of prayers makes her the 4th part of a man made quadiny. <<

Mary is not the wife of the Holy Spirit. She is not part of a quadiny for several reasons. She was created by God; The trinity are not created. Being a recipient of prayers does not make one part of the trinity. Try filing a lawsuit; you will find it said that you have "prayed" to the court. She is Mother of God not in the sense that she created God, for plainly God pre-existed her, but only in that she gave birth to God.

If you are afraid that that last point endangers confusion (that Catholics think that Mary created God), I would suggest interviewing 100,000 Catholics participating in Marian observances. Even among the wierdes superstition-tainted, third-world, illiterate peoples, you will not find one who believes that Mary was not created by God.
33 posted on 05/03/2004 12:52:58 PM PDT by dangus
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: dangus
>>he did not say he did not believe in them because they were not authentic, but rather that he could not believe in them because they were not authentic. <<

Umm, I mean to say he considered they were not authentic because he could not believe in them.

35 posted on 05/03/2004 1:00:33 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
To deny that He is not of her genes is to say that he is not of her flesh;

"Born of a woman" and "Born of her flesh" are 2 very different things, the scripture never says anything about the latter.

and by saying that, you say that he is not of anyone's flesh. Yet, he repeatedly calls himself, "the Son of Man." You have denied the human nature of Christ! Please be careful using your own reasoning to construct arguments, for you are denying basic doctrines which are held by ALL those who proclaim to be Christian.

Not at all. He does not have to be of her egg to for all of the scripture about Him to be true yet if He is of her egg the verse in question falls apart.

36 posted on 05/03/2004 1:04:23 PM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: Gotterdammerung
I never heard that one before. I used to think the woman in Revelation was the Church, which seems more plausible.

The Church did not give birth to Jesus in any sense.

38 posted on 05/03/2004 1:13:26 PM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: sartorius
THE "MOTHER OF GOD" ("THEOTOKOS")

Theotokos is properly translated "god bearer". Its use in the early (truly) ecumenical creed was to establish and guard the divinity of Christ, not to elevate or envoke adoartion of Mary. Protestants understand the word in that sense only.

(a) The Gk. word rendered "highly favoured" here (KJV) and in many translations, is "kecharitomene." Catholic Bibles usually translate it "full of grace," which is permissible, and not merely a biased position. E.g., the Protestant Amplified Bible mentions in a note that "endued with grace" is the "literal translation." W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of N.T. Words, a standard Protestant reference, states that the word means "to make graceful or gracious . . . grace implies more than favour; grace is a free gift, favour may be deserved or gained."

If this be true, the Catholic rendering makes more clear the Catholic position that (b) Mary's Immaculate Conception is entirely unmerited on her part, a sheer act of mercy and grace performed solely by God.

There is no logical, biblically necessary connection between (a) and (b). "Highly favored", "full of grace", etc. does not translate into "immaculate conception" except in RC theology.

Mary had to be sinless in order to be in such close proximity to God Himself.

Harldy. Jesus surrounded Himself with sinners ever day. Witness the story of the woman with the issue of blood in Matt 9:20. Even though she approached Jesus in her unclean state, rather than her defiling Him as was testified in the law, He made her clean. Such is the power of Christ to overcome sin.

Again, this is another of those logical leaps that is not required from the Scriptural account.

39 posted on 05/03/2004 1:21:00 PM PDT by topcat54
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: HarleyD
>> Also, when Jesus was told that His mother and brothers were outside Jesus asked the retorical question, "Who are My mother and brothers but these who do the will of My Father." Not the kind of response one would have expected Jesus to say about the mother of God. <<

Maybe you got what I said, but maybe I said it to briefly: That passage instructs us HOW to fulfill John 19's command to honor our Mother: By obeying those who do his will. Ask yourself, "in what way does he mean that these people are his mother and brothers?" The answer: in that we should give them the respect of being so close to Jesus.

If I tell you, "we were treated like family," does that diminish what being family means to you? Of course not! It speaks to how mice we were treated, and by using family as an ideal, it makes us associate family with kind, generous and giving... even if our own family was not. In such a way, telling us to treat those who obey him as his mother commands us to respect one another, but it also perpetuate the notion that his mother *is* due respect!

>>That's a pretty inclusive statement and includes Enoch and Elijah. <<

Yes, THAT statement includes Elijah and Enoch. My point in mentionning Elijah and Enoch is that other passages which seem equally all-inclusive ("No-one has seen the Father, but he whom the Father has sent", "All have perished," etc.) still have exceptions. IF you did not know better about Elijah and Enoch, surely you would say there are no exceptions to their cases, also. But there is ONE exception to the statement you made which we do know about: Christ has not sinned. Now, you'll say, "Well, of course not, but..." The obviousness of THAT exception is, well, obvious. But it does mean that Paul was not being ABSOLUTE in pointing out any exceptions. Less careful than Jesus, who had said "except the one whom he has sent," but still left out Jacob.

When you read the bible saying "All" or "none" ask "all who?" "none who?" In each case (Jacob, Mary, Elijah, Enoch), the author felt no need to exclude anyone whom the reader was never going to meet in the flesh.
41 posted on 05/03/2004 1:23:13 PM PDT by dangus
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: sartorius
The farther we get from scriptural terminology the less likely I am to agree with anything. I also have a very tough time with man putting things of God in terms of engineering requirements.
43 posted on 05/03/2004 1:27:54 PM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: biblewonk
>> The Church did not give birth to Jesus in any sense.<<

No, but it will... the mission of the Church is to bring Christ into the world. The historic basis of Revelations 12 (the origin of the metaphor, so to speak) is Mary giving birth to Christ. The prophetic allusion, however, is that the Church will bear suffering, such as childbirth, in bringing Christ into the world. Please note the length of woman's time in Egypt...
45 posted on 05/03/2004 1:33:45 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
I would add that when Jesus calls Mary "Woman," he is using the same play on words Genesis recorded: "Eve" meaning "Woman."

However, Jesus did not use the phrase exclusively with respect to Mary. E.g.,

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. (Matt. 15:28)

John used the same construct for Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. (John 4:21)

And the woman taken in adultery.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? (John 8:10)

Jesus spoke to Mary no differently than He spoke to Samaritans and adulterers. Your reference proves nothing, except that Jesus liked that phrase.

46 posted on 05/03/2004 1:34:20 PM PDT by topcat54
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: dangus
Please note the length of woman's time in Egypt...

I'm missing the egypt reference unless you mean "the wilderness".

49 posted on 05/03/2004 1:42:44 PM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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To: sartorius
It has been a pleasure discussing this with you. Perhaps we should both pray on it. I'll look into some Scriptural references that might help.

The pleasure is all mine! Thank you too.

50 posted on 05/03/2004 1:43:13 PM PDT by biblewonk (No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.)
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