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Those Whom He Foreknew He Predestined
desiringGOD.org ^ | October 13, 1985 | John Piper

Posted on 05/08/2004 8:00:01 PM PDT by Gamecock

Those Whom He Foreknew He Predestined

October 13, 1985

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according go His purpose. 29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Our aim in this lesson is to understand four parts of Romans 8:29.

1. The connection with verse 28.

"FOR whom He foreknew..."

2. The meaning of God's foreknowledge.

"For whom He FOREKNEW He also predestined..."

3. The aim of predestination for our good.

"...to become conformed to the image of His Son..."

4. The aim of predestination for Christ's glory.

"...that He might be the first-born among many brethren."

1. The connection with verse 28.

-- "For" indicates that verses 29-30 are the foundation for verse 28. They give reasons why we can KNOW all things will work together for those who are called according to God's purpose.

-- It appears that what verses 29-30 do is unfold the implications of the phrase in verse 28, "called according to his purpose."

** verse 29 unfolds the PURPOSE

** verse 30 unfolds the CALL

1.1 Why is it important for Paul to give such a deep foundation for this promise? -- FOUR REASONS.

1.11 Few promises have brought more comfort and strength to God's people over the centuries than Romans 8:28. If we can be sure in our deepest heart of hearts that this promise is true, then we will be the freest of all people. In the freedom of HOPE we will love one another and will shine like lights in a dark world.

Hope is the most practical power in the world. It overcomes discouragement and depression and irritablity and anxiety and suicide. It gives new life to old jobs and old marriages and old friendships and old churches. It opens the future and invites vision and dreams and planing and prayer. It conquers lust and greed and vain ambition, because these are just short term substitutes for people who have lost hope in something really great and beautiful and satisfying in their lives.

Therefore Paul does not shrink back from giving us a deep foundation for this greatest of all promises. And the foundation is Romans 8:29-30. The pillars of the foundation are the great doctrines of election and predestination and and effectual calling and justification and glorification. The reason these things are important to know and love is that they are the foundation of all the covenant blessings we cherish.

1.12 But even more, if we do not know these doctrines of grace, our vision of God will be small and disfigured. And when our vision of God is small and distorted the attempt to see all of life in relation to God is frustrated -- and we retreat with our little God into a religious subculture instead of confronting the cultural and intellectual life of our day and laying claim to all truth as the territory of the majestic God.

1.13 And even within our church, worship suffers the bain of triviality when we do not know and love the God who elects and predestines and calls and justifies and glorifies. Is this not the deepest explanation of the virtual disappearance of reverence in our day. There is a connection between the absence of true and powerful worship and the absence of a God whose rights and power and freedom stun anybody.

1.14 And the list of reasons why this study is important could go on and on. Suffice it to say in the end, this is the Word of God!

2. THE MEANING OF GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE (verse 29a: "Those whom he foreknew.")

2.1 Two possibilities:

God foreknows all things and ALL PEOPLE in one sense (Isaiah 46:10). But not all are predestined to be conformed to his son. Therefore, the "foreknowing" must be qualified in some sense, because Paul says, "Whom he foreknew he predestined. There are two ways to qualify or limit the idea of God's foreknowing:

2.11. Add a phrase like: "would believe on Jesus" so that it reads: "Whom he foreknew would believe on Jesus he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son..." In other words, in order to preserve the self-determining power of man in his own salvation, God predestines people only on the basis of faith which he foresees that certain people will produce by their self-determining power.

2.12. Make no additions, but construe the word "foreknew" to refer to that special kind of knowing in scripture which signifies choice and acknowledgement and favor. In other words interpret this foreknowledge of God as virtually synonymous with his election.

2.2 Arguments for the second view (2.12)

2.21 While it is not impossible that Paul might want us to supply extra words to make sense out of his sentence, it would seem better not to insist on adding a whole phrase if the meaning of the verse is plain and coherent with the context without adding any extra words. The text simply says, "WHOM HE FOREKNEW HE PREDESTINED," as though the idea of foreknowing contained its own limitation. If we find that elsewhere in the Bible and especially in Paul that "knowing" can carry its own limited sense, then the addition other phrases would be unnecessary (see 2.23).

2.22 The hope of preserving man's power of self determination in salvation is futile in view of verse 30, where it says, "Those whom he called he also justified." See this morning's sermon: if all the called are justified, and if justification is only by faith, then the call must secure the faith because it secures the justification. But if the call of God brings about faith, then it is not the self-determing power of man that brings him to salvation.

Therefore, even if God did base his predestination on faith which he foresaw, it was a faith which he himself intended to create. So the whole motive for the idea of foreknown faith collapses. It still leaves us with the freedom and right of God to elect or choose whom he will call effectually into faith. For God to predestine someone on the basis of faith which he himself creates, is the same as basing predestination on the basis of election.

2.23 The word "know" and "foreknow" commonly mean "choose" or "set favor upon" or "acknowledge". Therefore we do not need to add any phrase to limit whom God foreknows, because the word itself limits the group -- it is those whom he chose or set his favor upon. Here are some texts to show this meaning of "knowing."

2.231 Romans 11:1-2

I ASK, THEN, HAS GOD REJECTED HIS PEOPLE? BY NO MEANS! I MYSELF AM AN ISRAELITE, A DESCENDANT OF ABRAHAM, A MEMBER OF THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN. GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE FOREKNEW.

2.232 Amos 3:1-2

Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you, O People of Israel...You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

2.233 Genesis 18:17-19

The lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do...? No, for I have chosen [litterally: "known"] him, that he may charge his children...to keep the way of the Lord...so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised.

2.234 Hosea 13:4-5

I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior. It was I who knew you in the wilderness, in the land of drought...

2.235 Psalm 1:6

FOR THE LORD KNOWS THE WAY OF THE RIGHTEOUS, BUT THE WAY OF THE WICKED WILL PERISH.

2.236 Matthew 7:23

AND THEN I WILL DECLARE TO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YOU EVILDOERS.

2.237 1 Corinthians 8:3

If one loves God, one is known by God.

2.238 Galatians 4:8-9

FORMERLY, WHEN YOU DID NOT KNOW GOD, YOU WERE IN BONDAGE TO BEINGS THAT BY NATURE ARE NO GODS; BUT NOW THAT YOU HAVE KNOWN GOD, OR RATHAER BEEN KNOWN BY GOD, HOW CAN YOU TURN BACK AGAIN TO THE WEAK AND BEGGARLY ELEMENTAL SPIRITS...?

2.239 2 Timothy 2:16-19

AVOID SUCH GODLESS CHATTER, FOR IT WILL LEAD PEOPLE INTO MORE AND MORE UNGODLINESS...AMONG THEM ARE HYMENAEUS AND PHILETUS, WHO HAVE SWERVED FROM THE TRUTH BY HOLDING THAT THE RESURRECTION IS PAST ALREADY. THEY ARE UPSETTING THE FAITH OF SOME. BUT GOD'S FIRM FOUNDATION STANDS, BEARING THIS SEAL: "THE LORD KNOWS THOSE WHO ARE HIS," AND "LET EVERYONE WHO NAMES THE NAME OF THE LORD DEPART FROM INIQUITY."

Conclusion: "Whom he foreknew he also predestined" means that God appointment of the desiny of his people is based on his prior election, and this election is not based on any foreseen faith that we could produce by some power of self-determination. The plan of redemption was never conceived to include the saving power of human self-determination.

3. WHAT IS THE AIM OF PREDESTINATION FOR OUR GOOD?

Predestination does not refer here to the choice of who will be saved. It refers to the destiny appointed for those who are chosen. First God chooses, that is, he unconditionally sets his favor on whom he will, THEN destines them for their glorious role in eternity.

Paul mentions two parts to this destiny for the "foreknown" or the "chosen". One relates to our good. The other relates to Christ's glory. First, look at the aim of predestination as it relates to our good.

FOR THOSE WHOM HE FOREKNEW HE PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.

Other texts that deal with our conformity to Christ show that it probably includes both the final glorious state of the resurrection as well as the process of moral transformation on the way to that glory.

Philippians 3:20-21

BUT OUR COMMONWEALTH IS IN HEAVEN, AND FROM IT WE AWAIT A SAVIOR, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, WHO WILL CHANGE OUR LOWLY BODY TO BE LIKE HIS GLORIOUS BODY, BY THE POWER WHICH ENABLES HIM EVEN TO SUBJECT ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF. (This is the only other place in the NT where the word summorphous occurs besides Romans 8:29.)

1 Corinthians 15:42-49

SO IS IT WITH THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. WHAT IS SOWN IS PERISHABLE WHAT IS RAISE IS IMPERISHABLE. IT IS SOWN IN DISHONOR, IT IS RAISED IN GLORY...JUST AS WE HAVE BORNE THE IMAGE OF THE MAN OF DUST, WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE MAN OF HEAVEN.

Philippians 3:10

THAT I MAY KNOW HIM AND THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION, AND MAY SHARE HIS SUFFERINGS, BEFCOMING LIKE HIM IN HIS DEATH...

2 Corinthians 3:18

AND WE ALL, WITH UNVEILED FACE, BEHOLDING THE GLORY OF THE LORD, ARE BEING CHANGED INTO HIS LIKENESS FROM ONE DEGREE OF GLORY TO ANOTHER; FOR THIS COMES FROM THE LORD WHO IS THE SPIRIT.

Conclusion: The aim of predestination as it relates to our good is that we are appointed to share the very glory of the risen Christ both morally in blameless righteousness and physically in a resurrection body of glory like his. This destiny is the "glorification" of verse 30 ("those whom he justified he glorified") and it is under way right now in all the children of God as we look into the face of Christ in the gospel and are changed from one degree of glory to another by the power of the Spirit.

4. WHAT IS THE AIM OF PREDESTINATION FOR CHRIST'S GLORY?

God's ultimate goal in the eternally predestined plan of salvation does not terminate on humans. It terminates on the Son of God. His glory has a precedence over our glory. The glory of the preeminece Christ is the ultimate goal of predestination.

FOR THOSE WHOM HE FOREKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, IN ORDER THAT HE MIGHT BE THE FIRST-BORN AMONG MANY BRETHREN.

-- God appointed us to share the greatness of the Son so that the Son might be exalted as the greatest among the great.

-- God destined us to share Christ's glory in order that the glory of the Son might be magnified in the countless mirrors of those who are conformed to his image.

-- God created a second-born and a third-born and a millionth-born so that Christ might be exalted and praised and honored in the midst of a redeemed people.

Conclusion: The unspeakable wonder of predestination is that it aims at and secures the end which God must have in order to be God and the end which we must have in order to be happy -- namely, the preeminent glorification of Christ in the glorification of his people.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 05/08/2004 8:00:01 PM PDT by Gamecock
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; jude24; ...
A ping to my Beloved Elect Brethren and Sisters, choosen by God before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love Eph 1:4

Thoughts from my favorite Baptist

2 posted on 05/08/2004 8:06:29 PM PDT by Gamecock (Free The Calvinist Three)
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To: Gamecock
This breaks these verses down completely. Yet it still amazes me how some will insist that God's predestination is due to what He saw man doing. That logic fails miserably and is completely unscriptural.


Ladies and gents, I'm Chamelio Salamander. I will make this a most wonderful experience.

3 posted on 05/08/2004 8:40:34 PM PDT by rdb3 ($710.96... The price of freedom.)
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To: Gamecock
It is truly sad that your doctrine of predestination and limited grace comdems so many to hell (yours and mine) brothers and sisters, our children and our mothers and fathers. Without even the hope and love of John 3:16 that God so loved the world and Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(KJV)

.
4 posted on 05/08/2004 11:08:26 PM PDT by kansas_goat_roper (GOAT ROPERS NEED LOVE TOO....UP AGAINST THE WALL REDNECK MOTHERS)
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To: Gamecock
Can you give it a rest, at least while drstevej's family is going through such turmoil? Frankly, I am getting sick and tired of all these argument that get nowhere and do nothing but divide the body of Christ. Furthermore, you seem to be the one who is more divisive than anyone else.

Your time might be better spent actually sharing the Gospel. The actual mechanism by which people are saved doesn't really make any difference. That one accept Christ as his/her personal Savior is all that matters.

I've met some pretty petty people in my life, and you are right up there.

5 posted on 05/08/2004 11:23:58 PM PDT by connectthedots
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To: connectthedots; Religion Moderator; Gamecock
Go to bed, CTD, and get some sleep. You're being rude and divisive.

I don't see anyone pinging you to this sermon, so I assume you stumbled on it all by yourself...or else you tag after Calvinists just to fight.

Post your own threads, or contribute something worthwhile. But knock off the invectives.

6 posted on 05/09/2004 1:52:44 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: kansas_goat_roper
What's truly sad is that people don't recognized they are already doomed to Hell and that God in His mercy and grace rescued them. God is underappreciated for the work He does.
7 posted on 05/09/2004 2:42:41 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: Gamecock
"LET US AROSE OURSELVES TO THE STERNEST FIDELITY,LABORING TO WIN SOULS AS MUCH AS IF IT ALL DEPENDED WHOLLY UPON OURSELVES,WHILE WE FALL BACK IN FAITH,UPON THE GLORIOUS FACT EVERY THING RESTS WITH THE ETERNAL GOD"
C.H.SPURGEON
p.s.i thought i was your favorite baptist:)
8 posted on 05/09/2004 2:47:46 AM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 (saved by GRACE and GRACE alone)
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To: kansas_goat_roper
It is truly sad that your doctrine of predestination and limited grace comdems so many to hell (yours and mine) brothers and sisters, our children and our mothers and fathers. Without even the hope and love of John 3:16 that God so loved the world and Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)

The question is who is the whosoever? We believe that the whoever are those that God drew by His grace

The Calvinist in no way limits Gods grace, we strengthen it to be as effective and powerful as He himself is .

Now here is a question for you

If the meaning of the Romans text is that God predestined those He knew would choose Him then does it mean He predestined those to hell he knew would not choose Him by creating them?

Did God make men specifically for hell?

9 posted on 05/09/2004 6:06:35 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: connectthedots; Gamecock
Can you give it a rest, at least while drstevej's family is going through such turmoil? Frankly, I am getting sick and tired of all these argument that get nowhere and do nothing but divide the body of Christ. Furthermore, you seem to be the one who is more divisive than anyone else.

I believe both Steve and His mother would want the gospel taught. Every second of every day is Gods, some one is being born and dying every day. If we wait for a "good time" it would be never .

No one is forcing you to read Games posts if you are sick of them . You could just "pass over" them.

10 posted on 05/09/2004 6:10:28 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: kansas_goat_roper
It is truly sad that your doctrine of predestination and limited grace comdems so many to hell (yours and mine) brothers and sisters, our children and our mothers and fathers.

No, it is their sin that condemns them to Hell.

Without even the hope and love of John 3:16 that God so loved the world and Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)

The Calvinist affirms that whosoever will can be saved. All those who come to Christ will be saved, and those who don't won't.

Does God, because He bestows His Grace on some, owe everyone the same Grace? Or is God free to bestow His Grace the best way He sees fit?

11 posted on 05/09/2004 7:33:37 AM PDT by ksen (Free the GRPL 3! (Woody, CaRepubGal, Wrigley))
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To: RnMomof7; kansas_goat_roper
Did God make men specifically for hell?

Very good question.

12 posted on 05/09/2004 7:34:40 AM PDT by ksen (Free the GRPL 3! (Woody, CaRepubGal, Wrigley))
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To: kansas_goat_roper
It is truly sad that you attempt to rob God of his sovereignty by denying the totality of scripture.
13 posted on 05/09/2004 11:52:36 AM PDT by Gamecock (Free The Calvinist Three)
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To: connectthedots
So, I should stop posting Biblical truths because one of the Saints (Steve's mom) is about to enter Glory.

Are we not to preach and teach scriptural truths at all times?

Since when are you worried about Steve? You constantly troll threads where God fearing Calvinists gather to discuss scriptural truths and accuse us of being divisive, give me a break.

WWSD?
14 posted on 05/09/2004 11:56:27 AM PDT by Gamecock (Free The Calvinist Three)
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To: alpha-8-25-02
OK, OK, he is my favorite Baptist preacher...... ;-)
15 posted on 05/09/2004 4:16:55 PM PDT by Gamecock (Free The Calvinist Three)
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To: kansas_goat_roper
Think what you want. I think Spurgeon said it best when he said:

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon
16 posted on 05/09/2004 4:19:22 PM PDT by Gamecock (Free The Calvinist Three)
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To: kansas_goat_roper
to answer the preceeding questions go to romans 9.
just a hint
17 posted on 05/09/2004 4:27:37 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 (saved by GRACE and GRACE alone)
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To: HarleyD
What's truly sad is that people don't recognized they are already doomed to Hell ...

This is correct. Liberal theologians dismiss Adam and Eve's sale of humanity to the devil and ignore the catastrophic plunge into sin this caused to the human race. They ignore the fact that God was entirely just in wiping all mankind (save Noah and his family) off the face of the earth during the flood. In just over a thousand years, mankind had fallen to the point where 'the thoughts and intentions of man's heart was only evil continuously'.

They ignore that time and time again, that human depravity has poked its ugly head up again and again. Pharaoh's destruction of the first born, Haman's plans to exterminate the Jews, Herod's following Pharaoh's footsteps in Ramah. In the last century alone, Hitlers Holocaust, Stalin's purge, and Saddam's gassing of the Kurds.

Mankind has continually sunk down to the lowest levels God has allowed and it is no different today.

Our society continually tries to delude itself that it is different and that we don't need the law and to protect ourselves. We continually think that we don't need to follow God's Word and it is OK to flirt with abortion, illicit sex and homsxulty and that there will be no consequences.

Why God did not give up on mankind, back in the Garden, is still amazing to me. We did not deserve the promise of a Savior "You shall bruise his heel, but He shall crush your head". We did not deserve that the Lord Jesus Christ took the bruising for those the likes of such as you and I. We don't deserve the assurance of Salvation and an Eternal love relationship with God in heaven.

But God, May His Name be praised forever, decided not to leave many of us in to our own destinies and has reached through the mire of sin, cleansed us in Christ and drawn us to His infinite Love.

18 posted on 05/10/2004 6:55:38 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: alpha-8-25-02
I would rather go to the source and repeat what Jesus said
Matt 11:28
28 Come unto me, ALL ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
19 posted on 05/10/2004 7:03:34 AM PDT by kansas_goat_roper (GOAT ROPERS NEED LOVE TOO....UP AGAINST THE WALL REDNECK MOTHERS)
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To: kansas_goat_roper
It is truly sad that your doctrine of predestination and limited grace comdems so many to hell (yours and mine) brothers and sisters, our children and our mothers and fathers. Without even the hope and love of John 3:16 that God so loved the world and Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The problem with these words above is that they conflict with the Lord Jesus Christ:

NASB: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bare much fruit and that your fruit should remain and that whatever you ask of the Father, he may give to you."

Jesus did the Choosing, not you and me.

And "No one comes to me unless the Father draws him"

And "No one seeks after God, no not one"

No one is going to be able to say "I deserve to go to Heaven because I chose the Lord". The truth is far deeper and God is far better than is implied here.

Take in the Words which Jesus said, and let the Holy Spirit do the teaching. The doctrine that we choose God is not from God.

20 posted on 05/10/2004 7:22:50 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: sr4402
I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT WE OR I CHOOSE GOD. THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVICTS OF SIN, NO WAIT A MINUTE THERE IS NO NEED OF CONVICTION WITH CALVINISM YOUR PREDESTINED. THERE WAS REALLY NO NEED FOR THE ATONEMENT YOUR PREDESTINED. YOUR PART OF THE GOOD OL BOYS CLUB PREDESTINED ELECTED SELECTED. NO NEED TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS YOUR GOING TO HEAVEN WEATHER YOU WANT TO OR NOT. THE ODDS ARE AGAINST YOU THAT NOT EVERYONE IN YOUR FAMILY IS PART OF THE ELECT, SO I GUESS YOU WON'T BE SEEING THEM IN HEAVEN....RIGHT!
21 posted on 05/10/2004 9:00:59 AM PDT by kansas_goat_roper (GOAT ROPERS NEED LOVE TOO....UP AGAINST THE WALL REDNECK MOTHERS)
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To: kansas_goat_roper
This is a discussion thread. Shouting is not conducive to a forum such as this.
22 posted on 05/10/2004 9:16:20 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: sr4402
Good post , thanks
23 posted on 05/10/2004 10:12:08 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: kansas_goat_roper; sr4402
Most non-Calvinists would say the Holy Spirit convicts but it is up to the individual to choose to place their faith in Jesus. It is, then, their choice. I hope you don't feel all your family members may not make it to heaven because of your failed attempts at convincing them to take that "leap of faith".

Calvinists believe it is God who elects individuals. If God does not elect our family members that is His sovereign will.

Mat 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Since Calvinists do not know who the elect are, we are to preach the word to all.

24 posted on 05/10/2004 10:17:07 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: kansas_goat_roper
Do you believe God wrote the names of the elect in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world?
25 posted on 05/10/2004 10:21:02 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: kansas_goat_roper
Matt 11:28 28 Come unto me, ALL ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

That is a true assurance..but I ask again who is the "all" that will choose to come? Might it be those that the "Father draws "?

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Think about that EVERY MAN that hears and is taught BY THE FATHER comes to Him. There are no free will exceptions in this .

Every one the Father draws and teaches comes. The Grace of God NEVER fails.It is always effective in the purpose it is sent for.

26 posted on 05/10/2004 10:21:44 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: kansas_goat_roper
I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT WE OR I CHOOSE GOD. THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVICTS OF SIN, NO WAIT A MINUTE THERE IS NO NEED OF CONVICTION WITH CALVINISM YOUR PREDESTINED. THERE WAS REALLY NO NEED FOR THE ATONEMENT YOUR PREDESTINED. YOUR PART OF THE GOOD OL BOYS CLUB PREDESTINED ELECTED SELECTED. NO NEED TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS YOUR GOING TO HEAVEN WEATHER YOU WANT TO OR NOT. THE ODDS ARE AGAINST YOU THAT NOT EVERYONE IN YOUR FAMILY IS PART OF THE ELECT, SO I GUESS YOU WON'T BE SEEING THEM IN HEAVEN....RIGHT!"

Why are you yelling? You do not understand Calvinism . You are shadow boxing. Calvinists believe that God ordained the means and method of salvation. Every man MUST repent and believe to be saved. That is Gods plan .PLEASE do not slander us with your misunderstanding.

What we do believe is that no man will choose to repent and believe without being Born again (regenerated) by the grace of God.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

If you have repented and believed you are one of the elect. You are not elect because of your choice , but you believed BECAUSE you are elect.

God has graciously allowed men to participate in HIS plan of salvation by using us to give the gospel ,

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

As you read in John everyone taught of God will come with out fail.

Gods will is ALWAYS done when the Bible is preached

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:> it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

I was looking for your answer to my earlier post on election by foreknowledge. Have you compiled one yet?

27 posted on 05/10/2004 10:36:57 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: kansas_goat_roper
I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT WE OR I CHOOSE GOD. THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVICTS OF SIN, NO WAIT A MINUTE THERE IS NO NEED OF CONVICTION WITH CALVINISM YOUR PREDESTINED. THERE WAS REALLY NO NEED FOR THE ATONEMENT YOUR PREDESTINED. YOUR PART OF THE GOOD OL BOYS CLUB PREDESTINED ELECTED SELECTED. NO NEED TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS YOUR GOING TO HEAVEN WEATHER YOU WANT TO OR NOT. THE ODDS ARE AGAINST YOU THAT NOT EVERYONE IN YOUR FAMILY IS PART OF THE ELECT, SO I GUESS YOU WON'T BE SEEING THEM IN HEAVEN....RIGHT!

Whoa, Kansas hit the key right underneath your tab key.

28 posted on 05/10/2004 11:12:12 AM PDT by ksen (Free the GRPL 3! (Woody, CaRepubGal, Wrigley))
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To: kansas_goat_roper
BTW, nice tagline.....is that inspired by the verse to treat our wives like the weaker vessel?
29 posted on 05/10/2004 11:13:39 AM PDT by ksen (Free the GRPL 3! (Woody, CaRepubGal, Wrigley))
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To: kansas_goat_roper
the Lord definately gives his chosen rest.
if you want to stay in the gospels we will.
let's go to john 6.as you know the Lord is preaching to roughly 15-20 thousand,now we have to agree that if Jesus Christ was preaching what better preacher to get some individual to accept him.however at the end of the day only the original 12 where walking with Him.
john 6v65
and He said,"thefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by my Father."
so there we have it from the source.
john 6 is all about election.
the grpl is not preachimg grace because our belief doctrine is doubting anyones salvation,simply man cannot save himself.
30 posted on 05/10/2004 11:56:22 AM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 (saved by GRACE and GRACE alone)
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To: kansas_goat_roper
kgr, please do me a favor. Navigate to a copy of the Westminster Confession of Faith. It is really not that long a document and is about as detailed (yet concise) an explanation of the Reformed view as you will get.

The arguments you are making are against a position that Calvinists do not hold, and as such waste both your time and ours.

31 posted on 05/10/2004 4:02:21 PM PDT by Frumanchu (I fear the sanctions of the Mediator far above the sanctions of the moderator...)
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To: RnMomof7; ksen; alpha-8-25-02; sr4402; HarleyD; Gamecock; Frumanchu; kansas_goat_roper
If you have repented and believed you are one of the elect. You are not elect because of your choice, but you BELIEVED because you are elect.

Pretty simple, RnMom. Amazing so many get it backwards and inside out.

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ." -- 1 Peter 1:13

32 posted on 05/10/2004 8:50:08 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: kansas_goat_roper
If you are just going to sream, i will have to put you on my bozo list.

Oh, wait, that's another site.. ;-)
33 posted on 05/10/2004 8:52:56 PM PDT by Gamecock (Free The Calvinist Three)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
It was necessary to ping the mod you think? I thought you handled yourself pretty well all alone.
34 posted on 05/10/2004 9:09:29 PM PDT by ladyinred (Kerry has more flip flops than Waikiki Beach)
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To: kansas_goat_roper
THERE IS NO NEED OF CONVICTION WITH CALVINISM YOUR PREDESTINED.

Okaaaay.... don't see how you got from A --> B. Heard that before, but don't know where it came from. It's not something I've ever heard a Calvinist teach, nor is it a good and necessary logical inference that there is no need for conviction if God predestined that it would happen.

THERE WAS REALLY NO NEED FOR THE ATONEMENT YOUR PREDESTINED.

Considering one of the five points of classical Calvinistm is explicitly about a definate atonement, I think we can discount this statement.

YOUR PART OF THE GOOD OL BOYS CLUB PREDESTINED ELECTED SELECTED

You completely misunderstand how a Calvinist believes himself to be elected -- believing it to be a matter for pride rather than a matter for quiet astonishment. Smile when you say "PREDESTINED ELECTED SELECTED."

NO NEED TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS YOUR GOING TO HEAVEN WEATHER YOU WANT TO OR NOT.

Dude, you're just wrong. And you can't spell either.

"SHOUTING" doesn't make your post more logical; it only makes it harder to read.

35 posted on 05/10/2004 10:12:06 PM PDT by jude24 (sola gratia)
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To: connectthedots; Gamecock
***Can you give it a rest, at least while drstevej's family is going through such turmoil?***

CTD, I appreciate your concern about my family, I really do, but I can't see why this thread should not be posted or how in any way it effects my family situation.

Blessings, drstevej
36 posted on 05/11/2004 4:22:26 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: jude24
You're right. These arguments go round and round and round. I can understand people disagreeing with points of the article in question or even the theology but to bring up the same tiring arguments they might as well just list them in one location and link us there.

Perhaps they should begin with the list you've started. I would also recommend this list include that Calvinists:

Believe Hitler was a good thing.

Fail to let man freely choose whether he would like to spend eternity in Heaven or Hell. (Difficult choice???)

Have the adacity to say that God is in control and refuses to give man His sovereignty.

Believe that God is the author of evil.

37 posted on 05/11/2004 4:59:14 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
RnMom: If you have repented and believed you are one of the elect. You are not elect because of your choice, but you BELIEVED because you are elect.

DrE: Pretty simple, RnMom. Amazing so many get it backwards and inside out.

From the point of view of man who is receiving salvation, he chooses to exercise a non-meritorious faith in Christ, which then affords the Holy Spirit the opportunity to provide salvation.

It might be the case that from the point of view of the Father, that he had selected or decided before our time (the greek for predestined)who would be His children, but if we take this perspective in judging or discerning our salvation we have made ourselves as the Most High, thereby no longer remaining in His Spirit and out of fellowship with Him.

However, His indwelling us does allow us to understand Christ as the Son of God through whom all our blessings flow, this would be from the Father, and we obediently choose to place faith in Him just as Christ placed faith in the Father. This also allows consistent future sanctification by our remaining obedient to Him and not quenching the filling of the Holy SPirit in our souls, thereby continuing to build up our spirit towards complete sanctification.

38 posted on 05/11/2004 5:21:03 AM PDT by Cvengr (;^))
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To: drstevej
O.K.
39 posted on 05/11/2004 7:02:39 AM PDT by connectthedots
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To: Gamecock
For own study

pony

40 posted on 05/11/2004 7:10:12 AM PDT by ponyespresso (simul justus et peccator)
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To: Gamecock
"But you did not believe because you are not my sheep "

I find these words of the Lord in John 10 to be sobering and instructive. I'm sure someone can find a way to explain around them but to me it locks out any chance for belief in Christ unless the "sheep" are his to begin with.

41 posted on 05/11/2004 11:43:07 AM PDT by strongbow
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To: Cvengr
From the point of view of man who is receiving salvation, he chooses to exercise a non-meritorious faith in Christ, which then affords the Holy Spirit the opportunity to provide salvation.

Where does that faith come from, and why does one man choose and another not?

It might be the case that from the point of view of the Father, that he had selected or decided before our time (the greek for predestined)who would be His children, but if we take this perspective in judging or discerning our salvation we have made ourselves as the Most High, thereby no longer remaining in His Spirit and out of fellowship with Him.

Quite the opposite C , Believing that unregenerate man can save himself by his choice steals the glory and sovereignty of God and is man exhalting himself above God . We can agree that from the human perspective we may see it as a human choice, but in truth the choice belongs to God .

We are to have the witness of the Holy Spirit to our salvation, that steals nothing from God, that is a work of God.

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy "

However, His indwelling us does allow us to understand Christ as the Son of God through whom all our blessings flow, this would be from the Father, and we obediently choose to place faith in Him

Are you saying that the unsaved have the indwelling Holy Spirit that places in men the desire to be saved?

It is the Holy Spirit that quickens us (regenerates us ) , gives us a new heart and thereby changes the will to desire God. Then man will choose to repent and believe.

If it is your suggestion however that all men have that Holy Spirit that will cause some to believe..I would have to ask for a scripture on that

just as Christ placed faith in the Father. This also allows consistent future sanctification by our remaining obedient to Him and not quenching the filling of the Holy SPirit in our souls, thereby continuing to build up our spirit towards complete sanctification.

I think that is the cart before the horse C. We are not sanctified because we are obedient to Him , we are obedient because of His work of Grace in us which sanctifies us.

42 posted on 05/11/2004 12:17:20 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: strongbow
...unless the "sheep" are his to begin with.

Amen. "We love Him because He first loved us." - 1 John 4:19.

Grace is all of Him, and none of us.

43 posted on 05/11/2004 9:33:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: jude24
A- What makes you think I'm a dude?
T- TOTAL DEPRAVITY
U- UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
L- LIMITED ATONEMENT
I- IRRESISTIBLE GRACE!
P- PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
44 posted on 05/12/2004 7:10:23 AM PDT by kansas_goat_roper (GOAT ROPERS NEED LOVE TOO....UP AGAINST THE WALL REDNECK MOTHERS)
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