Shoo!
Posted on 05/14/2004 2:13:48 PM PDT by gbcdoj
"It has been a common teaching of theologians that a validly elected pope can fall into heresy and so vacate the See of Peter by automatic tacit resignation."
"Et hoc secundo modo posset Papa esse schismaticus, si nollet tenere cum toto Ecclesiae corpore unionem et coniunctionem quam debet, ut si tentat et totem Ecclesiam excommunicare, aut si vellet omnes Ecclesiasticas caeremonias apostolica traditione firmatas evertere. (De Charitate, Disputatio XII de Schismate, sectio 1)
"And in this second way the Pope could be schismatic, if he were unwilling to be in normal union with the whole body of the Church, as would occur if he attempted to excommunicate the whole Church, or, as both Cajetan and Torquemada observe, if he wished to overturn the rites of the Church based on Apostolic Tradition."
"Si quis dixerit, receptos et approbatos ecclesiae catholicae ritus in solemni sacramentorum administratione adhiberi consuetos aut contemni, aut sine peccato a ministris pro libito omitti, aut in novus alio per quemcumque ecclesiarum pastorem mutari posse: anathema sit." - -Session VII, Canon 13
"If anyone says that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, accustomed to be used in the administration of the Sacraments, may be despised or omitted by the ministers without sin and at their pleasure, or may be changed by any pastor [which includes the Supreme Pastor, the Pope] of the churches to other new ones, let him be anathema."
"In the case in which the pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off.
"A pope who would be separated from the Church by heresy, therefore, would by that very fact itself cease to be head of the Church. He could not be a heretic and remain pope, because, since he is outside of the Church, he cannot possess the keys of the Church."
(Summa Theologica)
"Those therefore who after the manner of wicked heretics dare to set aside ecclesiastical traditions, and to invent any kind of novelty, or to reject any of those things entrusted to the Church, or who wrongfully and outrageously devise the destruction of any of those traditions enshrined in the Catholic Church, are to be punished thus: if they are bishops, we order them to be deposed...."
"I swear to God Almighty and the Savior Jesus Christ that I will keep whatever has been revealed through Christ and His Successors and whatever the first councils and my predecessors have defined and declared."
"I will keep without sacrifice to itself the discipline and the rite of the Church. I will put outside the Church whoever dares to go against this oath, may it be somebody else or I."
It has nothing at all to do with whether he is making a statement ex cathedra or not - otherwise by that logic, one is stating that only a "pope" could be guilty of formal heresy. If it applies to you or me, it most assuredly applies to him.
Bon appetit!
All men are united to Christ solely by virtue of the Incarnation. (Redemptor Hominis 13.3)
All men are saved. (Osservatore Romano, 6 May 1980)
Christ's Mystical Body is not exclusively identified with the Catholic Church. (Osservatore Romano, 8 July 1980)
The one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church is present, in all its essential elements in non-Catholic sects. (Letter to the Bishops on "Communion," 1992)
The Catholic Church is in communion with non-Catholic sects. (Ibid.)
The Catholic Church is incapable of giving credibility to the Gospel unless there is a "reunion of Christians". (Osservatore Romano, 20 May 1980)
The Catholic Church shares a common apostolic faith with non-Catholic sects. (Ibid.)
Non-Catholic sects have an apostolic mission. (Osservatore Romano, 10 June 1980)
The Holy Ghost uses non-Catholic sects as means of salvation. (Catechesi Tradendae, 16 October 1979)
It is divinely revealed that men have a right to religious freedom and freedom of conscience. (Redemptor Hominis 12.2, Dives in Misericordia, and passim)
The miracles of Christ do not prove his messianic dignity. (Speech to Lutherans, 11 December 1983)
The article in the Apostles' Creed, 'He descended into hell', simply means that Christ's body was in the earth for three days. (Osservatore Romano, 16 January 1989)
...So we keep on in Hope and humor. Ian and your friends...
...PS Someone send me a private email telling me who all these guys really are, since they are so inquisitive about I, McClave, and company...
OK, this multiple personality McClave think is starting to confuse me now. I was willing to drop this after the whole "I share a computer at work with Stephen Hand" thing, but the strange properties affiliated with this screenname keeps getting brought up (and by McClave themselves) - and I'm getting more rather than less confused.
So far, we know based on McClave's own words:
Ridiculous. You cite no source for the supposed "correction", because it has never happened.
It has nothing at all to do with whether he is making a statement ex cathedra or not - otherwise by that logic, one is stating that only a "pope" could be guilty of formal heresy. If it applies to you or me, it most assuredly applies to him.
A heresy has to be contrary to something which must be held with divine and catholic faith, having been proposed by the Church as having been revealed by God. (c. 751; Cf. also the corresponding canon in the 1917 Code).
Bon appetit!
I note you failed to provide the de fide dogmas which these statements supposedly contradict. Furthermore, they entirely lack context and appear to be paraphrases which distort the meaning of the original in the cases where the document is available for examination.
All men are united to Christ solely by virtue of the Incarnation. (Redemptor Hominis 13.3)
When we penetrate by means of the continually and rapidly increasing experience of the human family into the mystery of Jesus Christ, we understand with greater clarity that there is at the basis of all these ways that the Church of our time must follow, in accordance with the wisdom of Pope Paul VI [Cf. Pope Paul VI: Encyclical Ecclesiam Suam: AAS 56 (1964) 609-659.], one single way: it is the way that has stood the test of centuries and it is also the way of the future. Christ the Lord indicated this way especially, when, as the Council teaches, "by his Incarnation, he, the Son of God, in a certain way united himself with each man" [Vatican Council II: Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World Gaudium et Spes, 22: AAS 58 ( 1966) 1042.].
It is noted that he quotes Gaudium et Spes:
He Who is "the image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15),(21) is Himself the perfect man. To the sons of Adam He restores the divine likeness which had been disfigured from the first sin onward. Since human nature as He assumed it was not annulled, [Cf. Second Council of Constantinople, canon 7: "The divine Word was not changed into a human nature, nor was a human nature absorbed by the Word." Denzinger 219 (428); Cf. also Third Council of Constantinople: "For just as His most holy and immaculate human nature, though deified, was not destroyed (theotheisa ouk anerethe), but rather remained in its proper state and mode of being": Denzinger 291 (556); Cf. Council of Chalce, don:" to be acknowledged in two natures, without confusion change, division, or separation." Denzinger 148 (302).] by that very fact it has been raised up to a divine dignity in our respect too. For by His incarnation the Son of God has united Himself in some fashion with every man. He worked with human hands, He thought with a human mind, acted by human choice [Cf. Third Council of Constantinople: "and so His human will, though deified, is not destroyed": Denzinger 291 (556).] and loved with a human heart. Born of the Virgin Mary, He has truly been made one of us, like us in all things except sin. [Cf. Heb. 4:15.]
There is no heresy here. All the "united Himself" means is that he became "like us in all things except sin". Unless you think St. Paul was a heretic?
All men are saved. (Osservatore Romano, 6 May 1980)
A lie.
But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him (General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999)
Christ's Mystical Body is not exclusively identified with the Catholic Church. (Osservatore Romano, 8 July 1980)
He didn't.
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"[273] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."[274] Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[275] and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."[276] (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”, [Ibid.; cf. John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Ut unum sint, 13. Cf. also Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 15 and the Decree Unitatis redintegratio, 3.] that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church. [The interpretation of those who would derive from the formula subsistit in the thesis that the one Church of Christ could subsist also in non-Catholic Churches and ecclesial communities is therefore contrary to the authentic meaning of Lumen gentium. “The Council instead chose the word subsistit precisely to clarify that there exists only one ‘subsistence' of the true Church, while outside her visible structure there only exist elementa Ecclesiae, which — being elements of that same Church — tend and lead toward the Catholic Church” (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Notification on the Book “Church: Charism and Power” by Father Leonardo Boff: AAS 77 [1985], 756-762).] But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”. [Second Vatican Council, Decree Unitatis redintegratio, 3.] (Dominus Iesus, approved in forma specifica by Pope John Paul II)
The one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church is present, in all its essential elements in non-Catholic sects. (Letter to the Bishops on "Communion," 1992)
There is nothing heretical about this. Non-Catholic sects [the Eastern Orthodox] have a valid Eucharist (ST III q. 82 a. 7) and the Catholic Church of Christ is therefore present, since the Eucharist does not exist outside the Church. This doesn't mean that the members of these non-Catholic sects are in the Church.
... in every valid celebration of the Eucharist the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present ("Some Aspects of the Church Understood as Communion")
The Catholic Church is in communion with non-Catholic sects. (Ibid.)
Every valid celebration of the Eucharist expresses this universal communion with Peter and with the whole Church, or objectively calls for it, as in the case of the Christian Churches separated from Rome. (ibid.)
These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments and above all, by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy. (Unitatis Redintegratio)
Lefebvre signed the Decree on Ecumenicism. He didn't see anything wrong with this - where's the heresy here?
The Catholic Church is incapable of giving credibility to the Gospel unless there is a "reunion of Christians". (Osservatore Romano, 20 May 1980)
Unclear. Not contrary to any dogma. Probably a distortion, like so many other of these "heresies". The existence of heretics and schismatics does complicate the proclaimation of the Gospel.
The Catholic Church shares a common apostolic faith with non-Catholic sects. (Ibid.)
We do share a common faith in certain areas. This statement is true because certain non-Catholics who believe in the trinity share this part of the apostolic faith with us, although they lack the fulness of the apostolic faith.
Non-Catholic sects have an apostolic mission. (Osservatore Romano, 10 June 1980)
Unclear. Not contrary to any dogma. Probably a distortion of what he really said.
The Holy Ghost uses non-Catholic sects as means of salvation. (Catechesi Tradendae, 16 October 1979)
He uses the Catholic elements in these sects, yes. Take a look at ST III q. 82 a. 7. The Eucharist is valid consecrated in some non-Catholic sects and therefore those who are inculpably ignorant of the true Church and in good faith (and therefore united with her soul according to St. Pius X) can recieve grace through this Eucharist.
It is divinely revealed that men have a right to religious freedom and freedom of conscience. (Redemptor Hominis 12.2, Dives in Misericordia, and passim)
Men do have a right to religious freedom, but that this is divinely revealed isn't what is taught in Redemptor Hominis (the Declaration itself is clear that religious freedom is part of the natural law):
For this reason the Church in our time attaches great importance to all that is stated by the Second Vatican Council in its Declaration on Religious Freedom, both the first and the second part of the document. We perceive intimately that the truth revealed to us by God imposes on us an obligation. We have, in particular, a great sense of responsibility for this truth. By Christ's institution the Church is its guardian and teacher, having been endowed with a unique assistance of the Holy Spirit in order to guard and teach it in its most exact integrity. (§12)
Nothing here is mentioned about the condemned error of "liberty of conscience" (which was not condemened as a heresy, though, simply as an error).
Nothing of the sort is taught in Dives in Misericordia
In any case, religious freedom is perfectly true and compatible with Catholic doctrine. Read Pius XII's allocution Ci Riesce and Michael Davies' book The Second Vatican Council and Religious Liberty, as well as the articles I gave you links to before.
The miracles of Christ do not prove his messianic dignity. (Speech to Lutherans, 11 December 1983)
A calumny.
515 The Gospels were written by men who were among the first to have the faith and wanted to share it with others. Having known in faith who Jesus is, they could see and make others see the traces of his mystery in all his earthly life. From the swaddling clothes of his birth to the vinegar of his Passion and the shroud of his Resurrection, everything in Jesus' life was a sign of his mystery. His deeds, miracles and words all revealed that "in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily." His humanity appeared as "sacrament", that is, the sign and instrument, of his divinity and of the salvation he brings: what was visible in his earthly life leads to the invisible mystery of his divine sonship and redemptive mission (John Paul II, Catechism of the Catholic Church)
The article in the Apostles' Creed, 'He descended into hell', simply means that Christ's body was in the earth for three days. (Osservatore Romano, 16 January 1989)
632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.[477] This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Saviour, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.[478] 633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.[479] Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":[480] "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."[481] Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.[482] (John Paul II, Catechism of the Catholic Church)
Firstly, the Pope didn't take the Coronation Oath. Secondly, he hasn't put himself out of the Church. Thirdly, he has kept to the discipline and rite of the Church - unless you think St. Pius V also excommunicated himself:
We decided to entrust this work to learned men of our selection. They very carefully collated all their work with the ancient codices in Our Vatican Library and with reliable, preserved or emended codices from elsewhere. Besides this, these men consulted the works of ancient and approved authors concerning the same sacred rites; and thus they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers ... This new rite alone is to be used ... (Quo Primum)
The Pope hasn't rejected ecclesiastical traditions or invented any novelty.
To say the Pope hasn't rejected any ecclesiastical traditions is to refuse to admit the obvious. And he has most certainly invented novelties. This is a pope who has actively supported the forces which have been wrecking Catholicism for forty years. In fact, precious little of that tradition remains intact--and much of the Holy See itself is anti-Catholic. Do you imagine the Assisi Prayer-for-Peace fiascos were not novelties? Do you know of any other pope who KNOWINGLY supports heretics, elevating them and giving them wide range over Church affairs? This is irrefutable and you and others only look foolish trying to deny what is plainly obvious to anybody remotely objective. This pope shares very little with his predecessors in his theological outlook or policies. Of course, this will be a cue to call those who point this out schismatics, etc. One is not allowed to say the emperor is naked--even if he has no clothes on. But the truth of this pontificate is shown by its fruits--the ruins of this devastation are everywhere--a pervasive loss of faith, scandals without cease with no end in sight.
Only a Catholic bishop has authority to determine that the Pope has fallen from office. That doesn't change the fact that a notoriously heretical Pope would be deposed - it just means a layman doesn't have the authority to determine that it has happened.
No, it isn't. Rejecting ecclesiastical tradition in the sense meant by Nicaea II is to consider a tradition of the whole Church (such as the veneration of icons) wrong doctrinally, such as the iconoclasts did.
a pervasive loss of faith, scandals without cease with no end in sight.
A new scandal just came out recently here. Sexual abuse by nuns. Happened in that perfect Pius XII church of the 1940s. Where are the fruits? Clearly he was a heretic too.
My main point is contained here:
Another highly important and sometimes overlooked prerogative of the local Roman Church is its infallibility. By reason of its peculiar place in the universal Church militant, this individual congregation has always been and will always be protected from corporate heresy by God's providential power. The local Church of Rome, with its bishop, its presbyterium, its clergy and its laity will exist until the end of time secure in the purity of its faith. St. Cyprian alluded to this charism when he spoke of the Catholic Romans as those "ad quos perfidia habere non potest accessum."[32]
This infallibility, not only of the Roman Pontiff, but also of the local Church of Rome, was a central theme in the ecclesiology of some of the greatest Counter-Reformation theologians. Cardinal Hosius proposed this thesis in his polemic against Brentius.[33] John Driedo developed it magnificently.[34] St. Robert explained this teaching by saying that the Roman clergy and the Roman laity, as a corporate unit, could never fall away from the faith.[35] The Roman Church, as an individual local institution, can never fall away from the faith. Manifestly the same guarantee is given to no other local Church.
It is interesting to note that during the prolonged vacancy of the Roman See the presbyters and the deacons of Rome wrote to St. Cyprian in such a way as to manifest their conviction that the faith of their own local Church, even during this interregnum, constituted a norm to which the faith of other local Churches was meant to conform.[36] The Roman Church could not possibly be the one with which all the other local congregations of Christendom must agree were it not endowed with a special infallibility. In order to be effective that infallibility must be acknowledged in a very practical manner by the other local units of the Church militant throughout the world.
In short, we can form a syllogism as follows:
Major: The local Church of the city of Rome as a corporate unit can never fall away from the faith.
Minor: The local Church of the city of Rome, as a corporate unit, accepted the Novus Ordo Missae in 1970.
Conclusion: Acceptance of the Novus Ordo Missae does not constitute falling away from the faith.
Shoo!
"scholastic theology points to the common Catholic teaching that the local Church of Rome, the faithful of the Eternal City presided over by their Bishop who is surrounded by his own priests and other clerics, as an infallible and indefectible institution..."
Where has scholastic theology ever stated that it is a "common Catholic teaching" that the local Church of Rome is infallible and indefectible? That is unmitigated bull. The Bishop of Rome is infallible under certain very constrained conditions. And the Catholic Church IN TOTO is indefectible--insofar as it is the Mystical Body of Christ. But it has never been Catholic doctrine that the LOCAL Church of Rome is either infallible or indefectible. Saying so is laughable since the present local church of Rome is as messed up as the thousands of other local Catholic churches around the globe. It most certainly does not exist anywhere in tandem with the Novus Ordo.
It is good and beneficial to communicate every day, and to partake of the holy Body and Blood of Christ ... And even in the church, when the priest gives the portion, the recipient takes it with complete power over it, and so lifts it to his lips with his own hand. (St. Basil the Great, Letter 93) [378 AD]
Whoever comes to receive the Eucharist holds his hands in the form of a cross, and takes it with his mouth; whoever shall prepare a receptacle of gold or of any other material instead of his hand, shall be cut off. (Synod of Trullo, Ancient Epitome of Canon 101) [692 AD]
When thou goest to receive communion go not with thy wrists extended, nor with thy fingers separated, but placing thy left hand as a throne for thy right, which is to receive so great a King, and in the hollow of the palm receive the body of Christ, saying, Amen. (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, "Fifth Mystagogical Catechesis", 21: PG 33. col 1125) [350 AD]
Such vessels in the first centuries were used in the service of the altar, and probably served to collect the offerings of bread made by the faithful and also to distribute the consecrated fragments which, after the loaf had been broken by the celebrant, were brought down to the communicants, who in their own hands received each a portion from the patina. (Catholic Encyclopedia, "Paten")
2. A Mass with a women lector
This does not constitute a novelty. Women were allowed to be lectors in the past, under certain circumstances. As for her dress, certain other cultures do not consider breasts sexual and hence there is no need to cover them up.
3. Pope having a sign traced on his forehead by a woman.
Indian Catholics...use "Aarti" when a child returns home after receiving First Holy Communion, and when a newly married couple are received by their respective families. Nowadays, "Aarti" is often performed to greet the principal celebrant at a liturgical event, as it was on the occasion shown in the photograph. On such occasions, "Aarti" is usually offered by a Catholic married lady, and certainly not by a "priestess of Shiva" as has been alleged ...Use of the "Aarti" ceremonial by Indian Catholics is no more the worship of a heathen deity than is the decoration of the Christmas tree by American Christians a return to the pagan rituals of Northern Europe. (November 22, 1994 Letter of the Pontifical Council for Social Communications)
4. Pope holding a plant.
Yes. What a terrible novelty. Holding a plant! Surely a heresy...
Nonsense. Nothing on the scale of what has happened in this pontificate has been known since the Renaissance. It is the scale and the routine nature of the scandals that are significant. There is enormous corruption and lack of faith--about which JPII does absolutely nothing--or rather, actually encourages by his lassitude and indifference.
This infallibility, not only of the Roman Pontiff, but also of the local Church of Rome, was a central theme in the ecclesiology of some of the greatest Counter-Reformation theologians. Cardinal Hosius proposed this thesis in his polemic against Brentius.[Cf. Hosius, Confutatio prolegomenon Brentii (Lyons, 1564), pp. 170 ff.] John Driedo developed it magnificently.[Cf. Driedo, De ecclesiasticis scripturis et dogmatibus (Louvain, 1530), lib. 4, c. 3, pp. 549 ff.] St. Robert explained this teaching by saying that the Roman clergy and the Roman laity, as a corporate unit, could never fall away from the faith.[Cf. St. Robert, op. cit., col. 812.]
That is unmitigated bull.
After such things as these, moreover, they still dare--a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics--to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access. (St. Cyprian, Epistle 54)
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