Posted on 05/30/2004 11:53:03 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Reformed bump
Does anyone know anyone who really believes this?
The elect will hear the Gospel. That's the Calvinism with which I am familiar.
Notice also how clearly the Holy Spirit teaches us the relationship between the cause and the effect in the conversion of Lydia. God was the One Who opened Lydia's heart, that is the cause, and He did so in order that she might be able to attend to the truths that Paul preached, that is the effect. Now that is what the Word of God says! Do not bluster about dead theology or throw Calvin's name around in derision, just read the words themselves in the Bible. If you try to deny that the one single reason that Lydia understood and believed the gospel was because God deliberately opened her heart and enabled her to believe, you are fighting God's Word. If you try to get man's free will as the one determining factor into this text, you are consciously corrupting the Word of G
After two years on the religion forum, reading Scripture and threads and posts and arguments pro-and-con, it's clearer than ever that the entire Reformation turned on two words --
"Faith Alone."
And faith is the gift of God, unmerited by fallen man, given only by God's grace to the elect among all races and nationalities, according to His good pleasure and known to Him from before the foundation of the world.
Salvation is of the Lord.
All else is human confusion, complication, deceit and foolishness.
Baptist BUMP. Thanks for posting.
One of my favorite writers
A Baptist Bump back at ya
What is not of Faith is sin, without faith it is impossible to please God.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God .
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Man cannot see - until he first be born again. John 3:3.
Unfortunately, the verse cited does NOT say THAT. It says:
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless
one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
To be "born again" is required, before one can "see the kingdom of God." The writer implies that being "born again" is the very first step in becoming a follower of Yeshua (Jesus), and that, prior to that, a person cannot see anything spiritual. The chosen verse does not make that case, at all.
Man cannot understand - until he first be given a new nature. I Cor. 2:14.
Again, the verse cited does not say THAT:
1Corinthians 2:
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the
Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot
understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Let us look at the context:
1 Corinthians 2:
1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with
superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the
testimony of God.
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus
Christ, and Him crucified....
4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive
words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
From the above verses, Paul is clearly saying that he did not preach "wisdom" to the Corinthians, rather he preached Jesus Christ, and Him crucified--the basic "milk" of the gospel.
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a
wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this
age, who are passing away;
But, there were some who were "mature" among the congregation at Corinth (and, presumably, among his later readers). To THESE, Paul does "speak words of wisdom."
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for
the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
This wisdom is "revealed [...] through the Spirit." That is, the Holy Spirit which is (supposed to be) IN us:
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but
the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely
given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human
wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts
with spiritual words.
Spiritual thoughts and spiritual words are "taught by the (Holy) Spirit. This leads us to the cited verse:
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the
Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot
understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is
appraised by no one.
The "natural man" cannot understand the "things of the Spirit of God," whereas, "he who is spiritual" CAN understand them, because he has "received the Spirit who is from God."
Now, Paul did not teach these "things of the Spirit" to ALL of the congregation at Corinth, only to "those who are mature." He then proceeds to define "those who are mature." Those who "have received the Spirit who is from God."
Man cannot come - until he first be effectually called by the Holy Spirit. John
6:44,45.
Once again, the writer changes what the verse is actually saying:
John 6:
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me
draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE
TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the
Father, comes to Me.
Do we take the passage at face value? It says: " AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD." It does NOT say that "SOME OF THEM" will be taught of God, does it? Does that mean that everybody will inherit the Kingdom of God? Look at the verse, again: " Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
Not ALL who "hear" from the Father will go on to "learn" from the Father. One need only consider the parable of the sower, found in Matthew 13:28-23, to see that this is true.
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
DG
Then I praised God for two things: the post itself; & not replying in haste.
Great post.
Even point four is not bad, except for the incorrect citations of scripture.
Seems to me that based on this article, some members of the GRPL are hyper-Calvinists. His comment about there being a hundred varieties of Calvinism does hit the mark, and should sting.
Can a dead man desire to see the Kingdom of God? With what eyes will he see it?
Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; [and] their hearts, that they cannot understand.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Jhn 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
We needed to be quickened. We were dead in our sin.We could not desire what we could not see. God had to act on us first . Arise from the Dead...THEN Christ will give us light.The word Quicken is synonyms with being born .
Greek
1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young
2) to cause to live, make alive, give life
a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
b) to restore to life
c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life
d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life
3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing
Again, the verse cited does not say THAT: 1Corinthians 2: 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. Let us look at the context: 1 Corinthians 2: 1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.... 4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
From the above verses, Paul is clearly saying that he did not preach "wisdom" to the Corinthians, rather he preached Jesus Christ, and Him crucified--the basic "milk" of the gospel.
No what he is saying that as natural men they could not receive the Gospel.
He did nothing...He did not a stirring salvation sermon or sing 3 verses of Just as I am . He claimed not one wit of credit in the entire process. He said it was all entirely the work of the Holy Spirit . 100%
Verse 5)
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
The fact is the message is one Paul teaches over and over. Being Born again, Repenting and believing are all the work of the Holy Spirit.
Now lets REALLY look at the scripture in context
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Lets write them as Paul did in His letter
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
One more time, from the mouth of Paul
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
Spiritual thoughts and spiritual words are "taught by the (Holy) Spirit. This leads us to the cited verse:
Exactly ! Lets go back to verse 12
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Does a dead man have the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual things? Or would man need to have the Holy Spirit FIRST to understand spiritual things? Can a Dead man without the help of the Holy Spirit understand the gospel (a spiritual thing?) What does Paul say?
Man cannot come - until he first be effectually called by the Holy Spirit. John 6:44,45.
Once again, the writer changes what the verse is actually saying:
John 6: 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
Do we take the passage at face value? It says: " AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD." It does NOT say that "SOME OF THEM" will be taught of God, does it?
Gunner you are a smart man, I can not believe that you can not parse those two verses
Lets look at them as written "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
It does not say EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE WOLD will be taught of God. It says those drawn by the Father will come and those taught by the Father..they are both the same group ..
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Does that mean that everybody will inherit the Kingdom of God? Look at the verse, again: " Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
READ it as a letter and you will see that the everyone refers to the elect..those the father drew ..The Father draws the elect, He teaches the elect, He gives the elect to Jesus to save, Jesus saves them and loses none
That is what is being taught.
Not ALL who "hear" from the Father will go on to "learn" from the Father. One need only consider the parable of the sower, found in Matthew 13:28-23, to see that this is true.
Think about this OK ? The dead can not hear. It has to be given to them to hear . Those that have it given to them ( be born again ) will have ears to hear.
I am glad you brought up the parable of the sower. It is one of my favorites , and it summarizes the discussion
Lets read it together
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them
. Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
There it is in a nutshell . It was give them to hear.
47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
We agree that he who believes has eternal life. The question is who can believe? One that can hear the word of God, one that has ears to hear , one that is born again of the spirit and not the flesh.
Who is that man? Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
I am glad that you read it. He is a very solid teacher
I also cited the book and page number concerning Edwin Palmer.
As this article points out, there are a hundred varieties of Calvinism; so don't come whining to me about the inconsistencies of the various forms of Calvinism. Surely some of those forms are hyper-Calvinistic; aren't they?
Now someone may be thinking, "But isn't that what the Arminian teaches?" My friend, that is what the Bible teaches–and teaches it clearly and dogmatically. "But don't Calvinists deny all three of those points?" I am not talking about or trying to defend Calvinists since they come in a hundred varieties. If you know anyone that denies the above facts, then that person, regardless of what he labels himself, is denying the clear message of the Bible. I can only speak for myself, and I will not deny what God's Word so plainly teaches!
Why don't you argue with the author. I agree with him, and he is a Calvinist; or at least RnMomof7 seems to think so.
The root error of the Arminian's gospel of freewill is its failure to see that man's part, repentance and faith, are the fruits and effects of God's work and not the essential ingredient's supplied by the sinner as man's part of the deal. Every man who turns to Christ does so willingly, but that willingness is a direct result of the Father's election and the Holy Spirit's effectual calling. To say, "If you will believe, God will answer your faith with the New Birth," is to misunderstand man's true need and misrepresent God's essential work.
I (and I suspect all the GRPL) agree wholeheartedly with this. None of us deny that man makes a choice to believe Christ. All of us have made that choice. We simply realize that our choice follows and was made possible by God's choice and His effectual call. We chose to follow Him because He chose us first. Our response in faith was the first fruit of His gift of life. Just as the first fruit of Christ's gift of life to Lazarus was Lazarus' choice (act of faith) to walk out of the tomb.
I have never seen a claim by anyone on the GRPL that they have a-priori of the identity of the elect. All believe in the broadcast of the Gospel and that only those drawn by the Father will respond. Indeed this gives us hope in evangelism, because the result depends on God doing what He said he would, not on the persuasiveness of my witness. He knows those He chose; we only infer by response. These are the tenants of Calvinism, not hyper Calvinism. So, I would ask - demonstrate where this differs from what was taught by Palmer or any of the GRPL.
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