Posted on 05/30/2004 11:53:03 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In post #48, HarleyD claims the Calvinist author of this article is a semi-Pelegian, so there is at least two variations right off the bat. Which one is srong, or are they both wrong?
I too sent an email to John Reisinger, but unlike CTD, I sent Brother Reisinger a link to this thread so that he can see what is going on for himself.
I can think of many names for one who attempts to sow discord among the brethren, but I will restrain myself.
List ten varieties for me and I will reply.
The man in question is a hyper-Calvinists whether he admits it or not. God has never forced any person to do anything that person did not want to do.I am sick and tired of the ad-hominems and straw men that are posted here. No one has claimed that God has forced anyone to sin who didn't want to. Read that once. Read that twice. What we have said is to repeat what God has claimed in the Scripture that God ordained the evil acts of men for His own pure Holy purposes. God did not force Joseph's brothers to sell Him into slavery. They did it willingly and happily. Yet God used it to save many people. Read the Scriptures in Gen 50:20.
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
Show me any error in exegesis or hermeneutics I have made here. Provide any alternative interpretation. But, please no more ad-hominems or straw men.
God did hot force anyone who crucified Jesus Christ to yell "Crucify Him." They did it happily and willingly. Yet God claims in Acts 2:23
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
that it was His plan that Christ be delivered for crucifiction. Again, feel free to provide alternate exegesis/hermeneutics. But no more straw men.
Note that when it suited God's purpose, He claims to restrain men's sin. Note what God says to Abimelech in Gen 20:6
Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.
Again, feel free to provide alternative exegesis...
In summary, God is sovereign over all creation. He knows the evil heart of man and man's willingness to sin. He directs the course of that sin to accomplis His pure, holy purposes, typically the salvation of many. He is surprised by nothing. He ordained the end from the beginning. His will is contingent on nothing.
Man freely chooses to sin because he is a sinner by nature. Therefore man is guilty, because of his rebellion against God and his willing sin. God can and did foreordain man's behavior and be innocent of the results because God's motives are always holy and just. Man earns God's wath as the wages of his sin. Man only receives eternal life as a gift. The first fruit of that gift is coming to Christ in faith. Jesus makes this explicitly clear in John 6:36-39;44-45
36 “But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
Finally, I welcome alternate explanations and exegesis of the Scriptures. Don't waste your time on ad-hominems or straw men.
One of the defendants in my case, AG Gregoire, is also having some major legal problems in at least one other case. Check out this article in the Seattle Times.
She seems to have a problem with covering up her misbehavior and obstructing justice with others, as well as with me.
Why is it that you think a Christian should not confront evil and corruption in government?
Did God predestine SOME evil acts of men, or ALL things including ALL evil acts of men? I really don't have a problem if the word 'SOME' is substituted for the word 'ALL'. I do not doubt that there have been a few evil acts of men that were ordained by God for His Holy purpose, but it simply is not reasonable to extend that to all evil acts.
It seems to me that the author of this article would agree that a person would be a hyper-Calvinist if he claims that God predestined/foreodained ALL events and actions of men, including the commission of EVERY sin committed by EVERY man throughout the entire history of the world.
I do care what the Scriptures claim. I have presented exegesis, you have responded by setting yourself up as the judge of God.
I do not doubt that there have been a few evil acts of men that were ordained by God for His Holy purpose, but it simply is not reasonable to extend that to all evil acts.
Again, no exegesis to support your contention. You presume to judge God in how much of man's behavior he can ordain and still be holy. That is the position of an autonomous man who really want to be God.
Still, I will try one more time and respond with the Scriptures. In Romans 8:28-32, the Apsotle Paul writes
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
What part of "all things" does He not ordain? Because God is sovereign over all man's behavior, he can and does direct that for His own purposes, for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Again, I remind you that God declares the end from the beginning because His will is contingent upon no other will. How can the above verses be true if man's will or sin trumps God's in any area.
Delivered up, yes,..directed, no.
They were not the high priest to God making a sacrifice in a temple. Jesus Christ made the sacrifice. Their sins to to believe they were able to control events and crucify Christ did not cause His sacrifice. He remained faithful to God the Father regardless the situation. Christ surrendered His body, surrendered His Spirit to the Father and submitted to His soul descending in faithfulness to the Father.
Those present at the crucifixion weren't holy nor would their actions considered as part of any sacrifice.
God doesn't need sin to advance his plan. A divided house won't stand. Only false religions assert God promotes sin, in part because as a false religion they worship a false god.
Huh?
Were the actions of the Jewish and Roman authorities in crucifying Jesus sinful?
Were the actions of Joseph's brothers in selling him into slavery sinful?
It appears to me that these, as well as a million other acts of human sinfulness have been used of God to "advance His plan".
Would Christ be the "lamb slain before the foundation of the world" without human sinfulness?
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
If one were to look at this verse, it does not say "God causes all things." If that is what God meant to say, the other words would have been left out. What the verse seems to be saying is that God can use all things and circumstances, even those things and circumstances that were not part of his desire for individuals, for His and our own good in the end. Our purpose and ability to be used by God is not eliminated forever if we have been disobedient in the past. God can use us and our experiences to further his kingdom, because He is a faithful God.
God allows man to make choices, good and bad, and can still use us to His glory. It does not mean God preordained/predestined all things; and God certainly did not predestined every sin committed or to be committed by every man.
Your comments are beside the point. Christ surrendered Himself, for sure, but He did not sentence Himself to death, He did not cry out for Barrabas to be released, He did not nail Himself to the cross.
Then, please exegete Gen 15:13 and Gen 50:20.
Let's add Isa 45:7 to the list, including the semantic domain of bara rah.
Did you ask him about the one hundred varieties of Calvinism? He seems like a reasonable guy to me who just doesn't swallow every claim by every Calvinist as being Biblical.
How about, "As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD"?
I asked him nothing. You are the one who said he was being intellectually honest in acknowledging 100 varieties.
Where are your TEN, CTD? Don't make me waith til Saturday!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.