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Interview with His Eminence Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos
Seattle Catholic ^ | May 5, 2004 | Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos

Posted on 06/02/2004 5:14:31 PM PDT by gbcdoj

This interview is reprinted with the kind permission of The Latin Mass Magazine.

Interview with His Eminence
Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos

[This interview was granted by His Eminence Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos, Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy and President of the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei" in Rome on May 5, 2004, Feast of St. Pius V.]

Q: Eminence, nearly one year after the celebration in Saint Mary Major of the Mass in the Rite of Saint Pius V, what reactions have you have received from the so called "traditionalist" world, with regard to this event?

A: I would say that they have been very positive. Up to the present, I have received hundreds of letters from every part of the world, expressing gratitude and hope for that celebration, at which so many of the faithful were actually present at St. Mary Major.

I believe it was truly providential that during the year of the Rosary, and in the context of the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Pontificate of John Paul II, that the faithful attached to the previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin Tradition, had a chance to express their spiritual closeness to the Holy Father through that most important of all actions - the Eucharistic Sacrifice, preceded by the Rosary. This occurred on the occasion of the feast of Our Lady Help of Christians, in that Basilica which is the mother of all the Churches dedicated to the Virgin Mary, where the body of St. Pius V rests.

Without denying the validity of the modern day liturgical reform, many of the faithful found themselves deeply moved in expressing their gratitude for this latest gesture of pastoral concern for those who find themselves spiritually identified with the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the Roman Missal of the "Editio Typica" of 1962.

Besides, this celebration has reassured many of the faithful that the venerable Rite of Saint Pius V, enjoys in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, a "right of citizenship", as I said in my homily. There can be no doubt about the fact that this Rite has not been extinguished. The event at St. Mary Major has, in itself, assisted in clarifying this issue, where any doubt might have previously existed because of certain misinformation.

I would like to make it very clear, that the only reasons behind this celebration were the legitimate requests made to me, as President of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, by various groups of the faithful, who wished to express, with this celebration their closeness to the Holy Father who, we should not forget, has also authorized the private celebration of the Mass of Saint Pius V, in the Hungarian Chapel of the Vatican Basilica, if priests, who have the regular permission to celebrate this Mass, make such a request.

Q: Eminence, in what rite do you normally celebrate the Mass?

A: In the rite which it is celebrated in all the Latin Catholic Church, that is in accordance with the Novus Ordo. Celebrating the Mass in accordance with the Rite approved by Paul VI, I have to say that I found a richness of love and devotion that personally satisfies me. Also, it pleases me that ordinary people can thus participate in the richness of the sacred liturgy and participate in this in their own language.

That does not mean that I do not preserve a great love for the Holy Mass in accordance with the Rite of Saint Pius V, that was the Mass of my priestly ordination and of my first years in the priesthood.

Q: Could you please tell us Your Eminence how the Holy Father regards the movement of the faithful who are attached to that Tradition?

A: I would like to recall that Paul VI himself had already permitted that priests, under particular conditions, could continue to celebrate the Mass in the same way as before the liturgical reform; then in 1984, the Congregation for Divine Worship with the letter "Quattuor abhinc annos", authorized the celebration of this Rite, under some conditions, and in the end, the same reigning Supreme Pontiff, in 1988, with the Motu Proprio "Ecclesia Dei" has recommended that: "moreover, respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition of 1962." (MP "Ecclesia Dei, 2,7,1988, n. 6). It cannot be forgotten that the so called Rite of St. Pius V is the ordinary Rite, granted in January 2002, by decision of His Holiness, to the Personal Apostolic Administration Saint John Mary Vianney of Campos (Brazil). All of that clearly shows that this Rite, by concession of the Holy Father, has full right of citizenship in the Church, without impinging upon the validity of the Rite approved by Paul VI, which is currently in effect in the Latin Church.

I think that the continuous signs of openness that the Holy Father has shown towards the faithful who are attached to this Tradition, gives ample witness of his affection for this portion of the People of God, which can neither be forgotten nor ignored. These faithful people, in full communion with the Apostolic See, strive in the midst of many difficulties to keep alive the fervor of the Catholic Faith and true devotion to it, expressed by their particular attachment to the liturgical and devotional forms of that ancient Tradition, with which they are mainly identified.

Indeed, it is my impression that those who are attached to the old Rite are involved in expressing a legitimate religious, liturgical and spiritual sentiment that is particularly rooted in the ancient Tradition and therefore, when this is lived in full communion with the Church, represents something that is truly an enrichment.

I don't like, indeed, those views that would like to reduce the traditionalist "phenomenon" to only the celebration of the ancient rite, as if it were an stubborn and nostalgic attachment to the past. That does not correspond to the reality that it is lived within this vast group of faithful. In reality, what we frequently find is a Christian view of the life of faith and of devotion - shared by so many catholic families that frequently are enriched by many children - that has special characteristics, and we can mention as examples: a strong sense of belonging to the Mystical Body of Christ, a desire to maintain strong links with the past - that wishes to be seen, not in contrast with the present but in a line of continuity with the Church - to preserve the principal teachings of the faith, a profound desire for spirituality and the sacred, etc. The love for the Lord and for the Church, finds within the particular Christian views of these faithful its highest expression through their attachment to the ancient liturgical and devotional forms, that have accompanied the Church through the centuries of her history.

It is interesting besides, to note, that within this reality, we can find many young people, born after [the Second] Vatican Ecumenical Council. They show, I could say, a "sympathy of the heart" for a form of celebration and of catechesis, that in harmony with their "feeling", gives ample space to a climate of the sacred and a spirituality, that is attractive even to the youth of today, that certainly cannot be defined as "nostalgic" or a leftover from the past. I would like to remember also that this venerable Rite has formed many saints through the centuries and has shown the face of the Church to the world. That Church still today recognizes the merits of that Rite, as the indult Ecclesia Dei of John Paul II proves.

In the Church there is a great variety of gifts placed at the service of different levels of consciousness and sensitivity, each with their own specific traits, that find a place within the abundant richness of Catholicity. It cannot be denied that between this variety of gifts and sensitivities we have also the faithful called "traditionalists", that they should not be seen as "second class faithful", but should be protected in their right to be able to express their faith and piety in accordance with their particular spirituality, that the Holy Father recognizes as totally legitimate. So it is not the case to oppose, as if they were in some ways antagonists, two different sensitivities: the one called "traditionalist" and one so called "modern"; it is instead the case of the freedom to proclaim the same Catholic Faith, with different emphasis and expressions that are both legitimate, in the full and reciprocal fraternal respect.

Q: Eminence, the establishment of the Apostolic Administration Saint John Mary Vianney of Campos in Brazil, seems to be a successful attempt to bring together those diverse sensitivities within the Church?

A: Certainly! First of all we have to see the action of Divine Providence: who would ever have imagined, two years before the Great Jubilee, that from an irregular situation like that of Campos, would have come a sign of hope for the whole traditionalist world and yet another concrete proof, among so many others, that different degrees of awareness can coexist within the one Church of Christ.

Indeed, that situation was somewhat complicated: after the resignation of Bishop Castro Mayer as Bishop of the Diocese of Campos, gradually the "Saint John Mary Vianney Association" began to coalesce with the involvement of priests, forms of religious life and a community of the faithful, becoming like a parallel structure to the diocese. Obviously it was a grave situation. Furthermore, taking into account that the Episcopal ordination of Mons. Rangel, who presided over this group, had occurred through the intervention of the excommunicated Bishops of the Fraternity of St. Pius X, in such a way that he had also incurred an automatic excommunication ("latae sententiae"). Thank God the group of Campos has come out of a situation which could have brought about a state of formal schism.

So, where there had been a bishop, priests and a group of independent faithful, the same Mons. Rangel and his priests, by an act of humility and repentance, responding to the invitation of the Holy Father, now felt an obligation in conscience to reenter into full communion with the Church, recognizing that the conditions of what they had considered as a so called "state of necessity" no longer existed. Thus a completely new situation was brought into being. It is worthwhile to remember the words of Our Lord, "Thus, I make all things new".

I would like to underline that this has been possible "due to an act of humility and of repentance" of the Priestly Association of "St. John Marie Vianney", that recognized that it could not carry on the battle in favor of tradition without an affective and effective link with the Vicar of Christ and the Apostolic See.

History, indeed, much more than any other teacher, shows us that no one has borne fruit in the Church without the blessing of the Holy Father.

We need to walk with Peter to avoid losing the right path. Bishop Licinio Rangel, with all the Campos community, after the reconciliation, effected an historical agreement with the Apostolic See, and now is under the light of the Sun, while before, that community, I could say, was under the shadow of an irregular situation, that made both them, and us, suffer.

Now we no longer have "them" on one side, and "us" on the other: we have full unity. Indeed, the climate of collaboration established between the Apostolic Administration, Saint John Marie Vianney ,and the local diocese, not only in Campos, but also among the other Dioceses of Brazil, is truly positive. There are bishops that request the Apostolic Administrator to send his priests to assist in their dioceses those faithful who are pertain to the ancient Tradition. In one Diocese, moreover, these priests have been asked to hear confessions in the local Cathedral.

The current Apostolic Administrator, Bishop Fernando Rifan, is an tireless builder of bridges. He demonstrates, with his personal witness, that this collaboration with the local episcopates is really possible, without sacrificing at all that identity that the Holy Father has recognized as legitimate for those Catholics attached to the previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin Tradition. The fact that the Holy Father granted to this Apostolic Administration the Rite of St. Pius V as its ordinary Rite, shows once more that His Holiness and the Apostolic See have responded with generosity to the legitimate request of the priests and the faithful of Campos.

Q: Allow me, Eminence a question that perhapst is indiscreet. After the establishment of the Apostolic Administration of Campos, other traditionalists have begun to hope that what was granted to the Brazilians will, in some way be granted to the traditionalists all over the world. What can you say to us, about this?

A: Before anything else we have to distinguish the situation of Campos, which is limited to a specific territory, from the situation in which the other faithful, who enjoy the "Ecclesia Dei" indult and live all over the world, find themselves in. The solution found for Campos is a consequence of specific local conditions.

I can say that the Holy Father, with the Ecclesia Dei indult and the establishment of the Pontifical Commission that has that name, already has demonstrated his wish to protect the legitimate aspirations of the faithful attached to the ancient liturgy, and the Commission continues to work in this direction. After more than fifteen years of the Motu Proprio - and also taking into consideration the not few difficulties that have arisen between those faithful and various Bishops who remain perplexed or who are rather hesitant to grant the necessary permissions - the idea is constantly growing that it has become necessary to provide for the concession of the indult in a broader fashion that would correspond more with the reality of the situation. It is thought that the times are mature for a new and clearer form of juridical guarantee of that right, which has been already recognized by the Holy Father with the 1988 Indult. The Cardinals and Bishop members of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, have attentively studied the matter, seeking the best solutions possible with a view to presenting these to the appropriate authorities.

All of these will be obviously evaluated in the light of that prudence and wisdom that should always mark the actions of the highest authority of the Church.

I can say from my part that I never lose hope; I don't like at all to surrender, because I am convinced that patience, as St. Therese of Avila used to say, achieves everything!

Q: Without willing to abuse your time and your patience, forgive me for a last question: are there hopes of reconciliation with the Fraternity of Saint Pius X?

A: I strongly cherish this hope it in my heart, sharing it with the Vicar of Christ, who waits with open arms for the Fraternity of Saint Pius X. I do not deny that I have a certain perplexity in the face of the hesitations enunciated regarding the return to full communion by the Superiors of the Fraternity of St. Pius X, and as were recently expressed during the well publicized press conference in Rome of Mons. Bernard Fellay.

Despite all those signs of hesitation, I believe in the words that Mons. Fellay himself repeated in that press conference that took place in Rome on February 2nd, that he does not wish to break the dialog with Rome.

For this reason I wish that this dialogue would arrive at the desired stage of the full regularization of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X and that we could build together, in the Church, that desired unity which Christ has willed, while at the same time always respecting the legitimate diversities, which can be seen not as antagonistic, but as complementary.

In conscience I have to say, indeed, that the Holy Father and his closest collaborators have done everything that it is possible, and they continue to do so, to make the Authorities of the "Fraternity of S. Pius X" understand the deep conviction, that this is the favorable time for the desired return, the authentic [time] of God.

If the Church were not established on the Rock of the Primacy of Peter, then the different sensitivities would not be able to find their guarantee and their center of gravity of unity in the Vicar of Christ, those differences would unavoidably become divisive counter positions, but thanks to the will of Christ, the Church, even in the midst of the storm, is always sustained by the Holy Sprit and its helm has been entrusted to Peter, in such a way that the powers of hell shall not prevail against it.

***



TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events
KEYWORDS: hoyos; indult; ssjv; traditionalism; tridentinerite

1 posted on 06/02/2004 5:14:33 PM PDT by gbcdoj
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To: gbcdoj

Care to say what a 'right of citizenship' entails? (I haven't the foggiest notion.)


2 posted on 06/02/2004 5:56:22 PM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: Mike Fieschko
Besides, this celebration has reassured many of the faithful that the venerable Rite of Saint Pius V, enjoys in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, a "right of citizenship", as I said in my homily. There can be no doubt about the fact that this Rite has not been extinguished. The event at St. Mary Major has, in itself, assisted in clarifying this issue, where any doubt might have previously existed because of certain misinformation.

3 posted on 06/02/2004 5:57:53 PM PDT by gbcdoj
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To: gbcdoj; Land of the Irish; ultima ratio

"Thank God the group of Campos has come out of a situation which COULD HAVE brought about a state of formal schism."

Assuming these words of Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos are reported correctly, then it looks like he does not think that even the Campos situation had yet developed to a formal schism!!!

"So, where there had been a bishop, priests and a group of independent faithful, the same Mons. Rangel and his priests, by an act of humility and repentance, responding to the invitation of the Holy Father, now felt an obligation in conscience to reenter into full communion with the Church, recognizing that the conditions of what they had considered as a so called "state of necessity" no longer existed."

Looks like the answer for the SSPX is to set up full parallel ecclesial structures (including a bishop) in each diocese where they are active until such point that a critical, self-sustaining mass is achieved. Once done, a state of necessity would no longer exist and then Rome would grant an Apostolic Administration.

The precedent of Campos could prove to be a vehicle for restoring Tradition to the whole Church which would circumvent the majority of non-believing bishops that we must currently contend with!

Our Lord only had praise for those who were battering down the gates of the kingdom of heaven to enter it by force - perhaps the times are ripe for desperate measures again.


4 posted on 06/02/2004 6:32:03 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: gbcdoj

Thanks for providing the p.c. version of events - and now for some plain speaking on this subject.
Modernists (masquerading as Catholics), in the wake of Vatican 2, succeeded in perverting the Roman Rite. Here's how it happened:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/remnant/bug.htm
Here's a pertinent historical perspective:
http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/destruct.txt
and here's some sage insight on the Campos compromise:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/HOMEPAGES/REMNANT/camp1.htm


5 posted on 06/02/2004 6:33:25 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena
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To: Tantumergo

I have a question, what is your opinion of the Novus Ordo done the way Bromton Oratory does it?


6 posted on 06/02/2004 6:37:06 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: gbcdoj; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; ...
I would like to underline that this has been possible "due to an act of humility and of repentance" of the Priestly Association of "St. John Marie Vianney", that recognized that it could not carry on the battle in favor of tradition without an affective and effective link with the Vicar of Christ and the Apostolic See.

Great interview!

That's it, in a nutshell. Dialog, not demands, is the answer.

7 posted on 06/02/2004 6:48:22 PM PDT by NYer (Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light! (2Cor 11:14))
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To: RFT1

"I have a question, what is your opinion of the Novus Ordo done the way Brom(p)ton Oratory does it?"

It's much better than what I have to put up with!

Why do you ask? Are you familiar with the Oratory?


8 posted on 06/02/2004 6:50:32 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Mike Fieschko
Care to say what a 'right of citizenship' entails? (I haven't the foggiest notion.)

Mike, the Catholic Church is both Western and Eastern; it recognizes 22 'rights of citizenship'. In the Western Church alone, it recognizes the following 'rights of citizenship' (perhaps liturgy is a more descriptive term).

RITES

A Rite represents an ecclesiastical, or church, tradition about how the sacraments are to be celebrated. Each of the sacraments has at its core an essential nature which must be satisfied for the sacrament to be confected or realized. This essence - of matter, form and intention - derives from the divinely revealed nature of the particular sacrament. It cannot be changed by the Church. Scripture and Sacred Tradition, as interpreted by the Magisterium, tells us what is essential in each of the sacraments (2 Thes. 2:15). 

When the apostles brought the Gospel to the major cultural centers of their day the essential elements of religious practice were inculturated into those cultures. This means that the essential elements were clothed in the symbols and trappings of the particular people, so that the rituals conveyed the desired spiritual meaning to that culture. In this way the Church becomes all things to all men that some might be saved (1 Cor. 9:22).

There are three major groupings of Rites based on this initial transmission of the faith, the Roman, the Antiochian (Syria) and the Alexandrian (Egypt). Later on the Byzantine derived as a major Rite from the Antiochian, under the influence of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. From these four derive the over 20 liturgical Rites present in the Church today.

Western Rites and Churches
Immediately subject to the Supreme Pontiff as Patriarch of the West


ROMAN
(also called Latin)
The Church of Rome is the Primatial See of the world and the Patriarchal See of Western Christianity. Founded by St. Peter in 42 AD it was consecrated by the blood of Sts. Peter and Paul during the persecution of Nero (63-67 AD). It has maintained a continual existence since then and is the source of a family of Rites in the West. Considerable scholarship (such as that of Fr. Louis Boyer in Eucharist) suggests the close affinity of the Roman Rite proper with the Jewish prayers of the synagogue, which also accompanied the Temple sacrifices. While the origin of the current Rite, even in the reform of Vatican II, can be traced directly only to the 4th century, these connections point to an ancient apostolic tradition brought to that city that was decidedly Jewish in origin.

After the Council of Trent it was necessary to consolidate liturgical doctrine and practice in the face of the Reformation. Thus, Pope St. Pius V imposed the Rite of Rome on the Latin Church (that subject to him in his capacity as Patriarch of the West), allowing only smaller Western Rites with hundreds of years of history to remain. Younger Rites of particular dioceses or regions ceased to exist.

• Roman - The overwhelming majority of Latin Catholics and of Catholics in general. Patriarch of this and the other Roman Rites is the Bishop of Rome. The current Roman Rite is that of the 1969 Missale Romanum, to be published in a third edition in 2001.
- Missal of 1962 (Tridentine Mass) - Some institutes within the Roman Rite, such as the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, have the faculty to celebrate the sacramental rites according to the forms in use prior to the Second Vatican Council. This faculty can also be obtained by individual priests from their bishop or from the Pontifical Council Ecclesia Dei
- Anglican Use - Since the 1980s the Holy See has granted some former Anglican and Episcopal clergy converting with their parishes the faculty of celebrating the sacramental rites according to Anglican forms, doctrinally corrected.
• Mozarabic - The Rite of the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal) known from at least the 6th century, but probably with roots to the original evangelization. Beginning in the 11th century it was generally replaced by the Roman Rite, although it has remained the Rite of the Cathedral of the Archdiocese of Toledo, Spain, and six parishes which sought permission to adhere to it. Its celebration today is generally semi-private.
• Ambrosian - The Rite of the Archdiocese of Milan, Italy, thought to be of early origin and probably consolidated, but not originated, by St. Ambrose. Pope Paul VI was from this Roman Rite. It continues to be celebrated in Milan, though not by all parishes.
• Bragan - Rite of the Archdiocese of Braga, the Primatial See of Portugal, it derives from the 12th century or earlier. It continues to be of occasional use.
• Dominican - Rite of the Order of Friars Preacher (OP), founded by St. Dominic in 1215.
• Carmelite - Rite of the Order of Carmel, whose modern foundation was by St. Berthold c.1154.
• Carthusian - Rite of the Carthusian Order founded by St. Bruno in 1084. 

9 posted on 06/02/2004 6:53:50 PM PDT by NYer (Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light! (2Cor 11:14))
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To: Tantumergo
Looks like the answer for the SSPX is to set up full parallel ecclesial structures (including a bishop) in each diocese where they are active until such point that a critical, self-sustaining mass is achieved. Once done, a state of necessity would no longer exist and then Rome would grant an Apostolic Administration.

There is no need for the SSPX to do that. Rome has offered a universal Apostolic Administration to the SSPX already, what would in effect be a world-wide diocese.

10 posted on 06/02/2004 7:03:14 PM PDT by gbcdoj
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To: NYer
Mike, the Catholic Church is both Western and Eastern; it recognizes 22 'rights of citizenship'. In the Western Church alone, it recognizes the following 'rights of citizenship' (perhaps liturgy is a more descriptive term).

Thanks for the post, but listing the different rites and giving a description of what a rite is, doesn't respond to my question "what does a 'right of citizenship'" entail?

What are the consequences of describing something as having a right of citizenship? I'm not familiar with that term.

Likewise, I recall the reports when His Eminence stated that the rite had not been extinguished, but that term doesn't occur in any canon law of which I am familiar. The terms I've seen talked about regarding a rite are 'abrogated' and 'obrogated'.

I don't intend to be picking nits, but most times, when members of the curia write, they do so with attention to their phrasing. Introducing new terms or descriptions can allow them to avoid specific consequences.

You may take the 22 rites as having 'rights of citizenship', but I don't see His Eminence doing so. Does that place the Gregorian / Tridentine / Pius V rite in the same category as the others?

I'm curious if the term 'right of citizenship' occurred elsewhere before this interview, or has been used by others.

I know what I'd like His Eminence to mean by 'right of citizenship', but ...
11 posted on 06/02/2004 7:21:43 PM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: Tantumergo; ninenot

I never been there(never been to Europe even), But I heave heard from many people who have, and they say their Latin Novus Ordo, at least in terms of externals, is almost identical to the Tridentine High mass, would such a mass be acceptable to many who want tradition, but can not get an indult?

I myself am probably liberal for a traditionalist, I do not have a problem with a reverent, Traditional leaning Novus Ordo, but I also like the 62 missal. If a Novus Ordo is sung in Latin, using the Confetior and Canon I, I really do not see how it can be considerd "inferior" to the Tridentine mass.


12 posted on 06/02/2004 7:24:42 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: NYer


By the way, speaking of rites, here is the Dominican Rite ordinary

http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/dominican/mass_ordinary.htm

Note how short its offertory is


Also of note, even before the liturgical documents of Vatican II were voted upon in late 63, the TRidentine mass was starting to be picked apart.

http://www.georgiabulletin.org/local/1963/10/24/b/


13 posted on 06/02/2004 7:27:58 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: Mike Fieschko
I don't intend to be picking nits, but most times, when members of the curia write, they do so with attention to their phrasing.

It's apparent from the wording used throughout this interview that English is NOT the native tongue of Castrillon-Hoyos. Hence, it then becomes necessary to 'interpret' statements. What is meant by 'citizenship'? My interpretation is aligned to the divisions of the 'churches' and their respective rites. As such, the "Mass of the 1962 Missal' qualifies as a 'citizen'. Just my interpretation but it seems to fit.

Of one thing you can be certain, there will be no general rollback of the Novus Ordo Rite. It's here to stay! From there, one moves on in selecting a 'rite' in which the most suitable form of reverence and respect can be shown to our Lord. All 22 rites are recognized.

14 posted on 06/02/2004 7:52:57 PM PDT by NYer (Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light! (2Cor 11:14))
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To: gbcdoj

Rome offered that? When?


15 posted on 06/02/2004 8:08:54 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: Mike Fieschko

Methinks that the translation from Italian to English may have been a bit, ah, 'stretchy.' Either the interviewer or the Cardinal didn't have the precise term, whether in Italian or in English.


16 posted on 06/02/2004 8:10:31 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot


In late 2001, from what I understand, Rome did offer the SSPX a similar status that Opus Dei now has, and be able to exist in various dioceses without the permission of the local Bishops.


17 posted on 06/02/2004 8:11:59 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: RFT1

Those who call it "inferior" are particularly concerned about a few major items, e.g., the significantly-altered Offertory prayers, the lack of Ps. 42 at the entrance, the single "Domine, non sum dignus..." before Communion, and some other less obvious and less major items--such as the fact that the readings are NOT done in Latin.

But on the whole, you are correct; the Latin rendition of the NO is very much like the 1962 Rite.


18 posted on 06/02/2004 8:14:42 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot

Again, while I do wish the 62 missal(with the option for some vernacular) restored as the prime missal, Psalm 42 is especially neede dto be heard today, just look at again the Dominican rite missal, that I posted earlier in this thread. I had an offertory shorter than the Novus Ordo, and it had no prayers at the Foot of the altar.

http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/dominican/mass_ordinary.htm

On Rubrics of course, I think the Tridentine rubrics should be fully restored to be the norm.

As for your Archbishop, he face sthe situation of being given a house that has been trashed, and tenants who wont leave.


19 posted on 06/02/2004 8:28:27 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: ninenot
Methinks that the translation from Italian to English may have been a bit, ah, 'stretchy.' Either the interviewer or the Cardinal didn't have the precise term, whether in Italian or in English.

I don't read, write or speak Italian. The interview appears in an Italian newspaper whih doesn't have a web site, but the original language apparently is here: Intervista concessa da S. Em. Rev.ma il Card. Darío Castrillon Hoyos.

The Italian used in the statement about 'right of citizenship' is:

Inoltre, questa celebrazione ha rassicurato numerosi fedeli sul fatto che il venerabile Rito di San Pio V beneficia appieno, nella Chiesa cattolica di Rito Latino, del “diritto di cittadinanza”, come ebbi a dire nell’omelia.

...

Tutto questo mostra chiaramente che questo Rito, per concessione del Santo Padre, ha pieno diritto di cittadinanza nella Chiesa, senza che con questo si voglia diminuire la validità del Rito approvato da Paolo VI e attualmente in vigore nella Chiesa latina.

[emphasis supplied]

If any Freepers think they know what a 'right of citizenship' and what a 'full right of citizenship' mean, I'm interested to hear.

I also find it intriguing that His Eminence and the interviewer describe the Mass before Paul VI as a 'Rite' (the word is always in the interview capitalized, not so in the translation), but I suspect that there's a looseness of expression there.
20 posted on 06/02/2004 8:32:17 PM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: Mike Fieschko
The Tridentine IS a "rite," as are the Mozarabic, Sarum, and Ambrosian [rites.] That's merely a descriptor which is applied to the rubrics, prayers, and readings in toto.
21 posted on 06/03/2004 5:51:37 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot
The Tridentine IS a "rite," as are the Mozarabic, Sarum, and Ambrosian [rites.] That's merely a descriptor which is applied to the rubrics, prayers, and readings in toto.

The word can be used as a descriptor, you're correct. But the word can also be used in a different, stricter sense. It often is so used. I believe His Eminence intended using the term as a descriptor.
22 posted on 06/03/2004 6:21:26 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: ninenot

In 2001.

http://www.sspx.org/articles_index.htm#negotiations


23 posted on 06/03/2004 12:14:37 PM PDT by gbcdoj
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To: RFT1

"they say their Latin Novus Ordo, at least in terms of externals, is almost identical to the Tridentine High mass, would such a mass be acceptable to many who want tradition, but can not get an indult?"

Yes - at the oratory the N.O. Latin Mass is offered exceedingly beautifully and many traditionalists would have less qualms about attending the new rite if it was offered in this way everywhere.

However, one of the main reasons that the new rite liturgy is conducted in this way is that 6 out of the 8 priests at the oratory also celebrate the Tridentine Rite! The fact that they love the old Mass rubs off on the way they do the new.

Tridentine Low Mass is offered at 10.00 am in the "Little Oratory", and Sung Latin N.O. Mass is offered at 11.00 am in the main Church. (Just in case you ever do make a trip to London).

At least when the N.O. Mass is said in Latin we get to participate in the same Mass and Prayers that in theory the rest of the Roman Church is participating in. English speakers have been deprived of this right for the last 30 years!

"If a Novus Ordo is sung in Latin, using the Confetior and Canon I, I really do not see how it can be considerd "inferior" to the Tridentine mass."

While the externals are not necessarily inferior, the lack of precision, ambiguity, and shady theology of some of the prayers are still a problem with the N.O. Mass even when said in Latin.

My interest in the restoration of the Tridentine Rite is not so much to do with the Latin as it is with the orthodoxy of our worship. I would be quite content with an accurate English translation of the old Mass, if suitably dignified language were to be used.

IMHO orthodoxy is a much bigger issue than which language we celebrate the Mass in - though I am cognizant of the arguments for the use of Latin being a defense of orthodoxy.


24 posted on 06/03/2004 5:03:10 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: ninenot; RFT1

"But on the whole, you are correct; the Latin rendition of the NO is very much like the 1962 Rite."

This is nonsense. There is a radical difference between the two Masses. Merely because the N.O. is rendered in Latin does not make it any less deficient than the version in the vernacular. It has not simply altered the Offertory--it has junked it altogether--just as Martin Luther had done--and this is a fact whether in Latin or in any other language. It has exchanged the sacrificial structure for a structure predicated on a memorial meal--exactly as Protestant liturgies do, in open contradiction to the mandates of Trent. Neither does it express adequately the propitiatory purpose of the Mass as mandated by Trent, even as it subverts the dogma of Transubstantiation--exactly as the vernacular does. Worst of all, its notion of sacrifice is Protestant, not Catholic, since it is a "sacrifice" of thanksgiving and praise, not that of an actual immolation--just as in a Lutheran worship service. In fact, its only advance on the vernacular version is its less pedestrian language--but this is only a minor advantage. It remains dangerous to the Catholic faith.


25 posted on 06/04/2004 7:10:31 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio

You wont find me defending how the NO came to be or how it is celebrated in most parishes, but the rites in the west had different offertories.

Here is the one found in t he Dominican rite, it is quite short>>>>>>>

What shall I render to the Lord for all that he hath rendered to me?

I will take the chalice of salvation and will call upon the name of the Lord.

Receive, O holy Trinity, this offering, which I present to thee in memory of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ: and grant that it may ascend to thee worthily in thy sight, and may bring about my eternal salvation and that of all the faithful.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Here is the web site

http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/dominican/mass_ordinary.htm


26 posted on 06/04/2004 7:26:14 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: RFT1

Even this shorter form recalls the Passion of Christ and links this to the "chalice of salvation." That is a far cry from the Novus Ordo which makes no mention of the sacrifice to come nor to the victimhood of Christ in any way. Everything is done to emphasize the meal aspect--in the Protestant manner.


27 posted on 06/04/2004 8:02:23 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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