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Vatican prepares to relax the rules on the celebration of the Tridentine Mass
The Catholic Herald (UK) | 18th June 2004 | Freddy Gray

Posted on 06/18/2004 12:26:59 PM PDT by Tantumergo

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1 posted on 06/18/2004 12:27:00 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Land of the Irish; Maximilian; ultima ratio; Canticle_of_Deborah; AAABEST

Despite several inaccuracies in the article, this could be some positive news in the offing.

Have any of you heard of a "juridical guarantee" before? Is it a PC way of saying "universal indult"?


2 posted on 06/18/2004 12:30:24 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo

Please let this be so!

However, that said - we have one Tridentine Rite Mass here in my diocese - which encompasses a huge area - at 8:00 a.m. on Sundays only in just one city. Oh, and of course, it's a low Mass.

They may have to do it, but they'll do it as grudgingly and with as many obstacles as possible.


3 posted on 06/18/2004 12:31:23 PM PDT by livius
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To: livius

"we have one Tridentine Rite Mass here in my diocese - which encompasses a huge area - at 8:00 a.m. on Sundays only in just one city. Oh, and of course, it's a low Mass."

- and I'm sure your bishop thinks he's being "generous".

At least the time isn't too bad. Most in the UK, if they allow them on a Sunday, are around 2.00 to 3.00 pm so that it will be as inconvenient as possible for people to come.


4 posted on 06/18/2004 12:38:17 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo
Have any of you heard of a "juridical guarantee" before? Is it a PC way of saying "universal indult"?

I do believe it is a synonym for "Soporific"

5 posted on 06/18/2004 12:39:38 PM PDT by Telit Likitis
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To: Tantumergo
I doubt it will be a universal indult, or Hoyos would have said so. Since it is being worked out, I suspect bishops will have to prove that they have a "wide and generous application" of Ecclesia Dei.

IOW, is the Mass available at convenient locations?

Each bishop will have to offer at least one, on a regular basis. Or, some guidelines could be issued, and the implementation left to the local bishop.

An apostolic administration would be preferred, or the tension will continue.

6 posted on 06/18/2004 12:46:40 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: Tantumergo

"THE VATICAN is preparing to relax the rules on the provision of the Tridentine rite"

Until all the arch-modernist bishops/cardinals who hate the traditional Latin Mass are replaced (or die off from AIDS) all this talk of relaxing draconian restrictions remains nothing more than "smoke and mirrors".


7 posted on 06/18/2004 12:52:26 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena
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To: Tantumergo; *Catholic_list; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; ...
Furthermore, controversy over the new rite has increased rather than subsided, with many Catholics demoralised by liturgical abuses that have occurred since the old rite was replaced in the 1960s.

"demoralised by liturgical abuses"

The complaints must be pouring in from all directions, not just the US.

What can be done about liturgical abuses? First, know your rights. Inaestimabile Donum and Canon Law state:

"The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful.

Is Your Mass Valid? Liturgical Abuse

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list


8 posted on 06/18/2004 1:33:37 PM PDT by NYer (It's the "Ten Commandments" - NOT the "Ten Suggestions")
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To: sinkspur

What the leftist don't realize is that a truly wide and generous application of the Tridentine mass would be their best move.

It would take all of the oomph out of the traditional movement because those who are part of it mainly because they prefer the Latin rite would now be happy.

Unfortunately - although this would be a very positive development - many of us realize that our problems go way beyond the mass alone.


9 posted on 06/18/2004 1:36:30 PM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: Tantumergo

**Priests are allowed to celebrate the Tridentine rite, as long as they obtain permission from their local bishop.**

Han't this always been the case?


10 posted on 06/18/2004 1:40:14 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Tantumergo; .45MAN; AAABEST; AKA Elena; al_c; american colleen; Angelus Errare; annalex; Annie03; ..

Anyone know what a "juridical guarantee" is???


11 posted on 06/18/2004 1:44:49 PM PDT by Polycarp IV (PRO-LIFE orthodox Catholic--without exception, without compromise, without apology. Any questions?)
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To: Tantumergo; ultima ratio

That's what I was wondering. This sounds like an universal indult.


12 posted on 06/18/2004 1:48:19 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: All

Ok I'm confused. What is the difference between tridentine and indult? There are two latin masses? I've never been to either


13 posted on 06/18/2004 1:50:38 PM PDT by kjvail (Light 'em up George!!!!)
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To: Tantumergo

That's probably not to make in inconvenient. The ethnic-separatists pastors which abound all across the DC and LI areas always make sure the segreg... I mean, Spanish language masses are at 2PM also... Morning and 6PM are reserved for mainsteam.


14 posted on 06/18/2004 2:07:32 PM PDT by dangus
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To: kjvail

Tridentine is the Rite and Indult is the Right to Celebrate the Rite


15 posted on 06/18/2004 2:08:00 PM PDT by CatholicLady
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To: sinkspur

"Each bishop will have to offer at least one, on a regular basis. Or, some guidelines could be issued, and the implementation left to the local bishop."

You could be right that it is merely an audit of the application of the present indult that is involved.

However, I get the impression fron his choice of words that the issue of priests having to obtain special permission from their bishop is what could be at stake here.

"An apostolic administration would be preferred, or the tension will continue."

Agreed - but I don't think this Pope will live long enough to see this happen in his reign.


16 posted on 06/18/2004 2:24:59 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Polycarp IV
Anyone know what a "juridical guarantee" is???

It's not in Canon Law. But, looking at the words, one would have to conclude that there will be some official Church decree with the force of Church Law that guarantees the Tridentine Mass.

To what extent that Mass will be available seems to be what is being "hashed out."

17 posted on 06/18/2004 2:29:27 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: AskStPhilomena

"Until all the arch-modernist bishops/cardinals who hate the traditional Latin Mass are replaced (or die off from AIDS) all this talk of relaxing draconian restrictions remains nothing more than "smoke and mirrors"."

I don't think its quite so simple as that. It could happen sooner with some deft political manoeuvring.

The fag-end of a pontificate is when the various factions in the Vatican make their most audacious plays to try and advance their particular agenda.

Hoyos, Arinze and Ratzinger could try and slip something through before the major bishop's conferences get a chance to bend the Pope's ear.

However, the major problem we have with anything coming out of the Vatican these days is its enforcability.


18 posted on 06/18/2004 2:32:51 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Salvation

"**Priests are allowed to celebrate the Tridentine rite, as long as they obtain permission from their local bishop.**

Han't this always been the case?"

Yes - but I think the implication here is that they may no longer need to seek permission.


19 posted on 06/18/2004 2:35:25 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: sinkspur

comment from a friend:

A "juridical guarantee" is just a way of saying that something would be guaranteed in law. There would be a process spelled out, binding on all parties, I imagine with the force of Canon Law, that would dramatically reduce the leeway a bishop would have in granting or denying an indult in his see.

Though I have no idea what the cardinal envisions, here are a couple of ideas of how you could have a "juridical guarantee" for the administation of the indult, without having a "universal indult" or granting an apostolic administration:

Plan A
1. Any group of Catholics within a diocese could petition for an indult Mass. Provided they meet certain pre-established, objectively-observable parameters, the bishop would be required to grant the indult. The parameters might include: having a certain number of adult Catholic petitioners; demonstrating that the petitioners are all registered in Latin-Rite Catholic parishes in communion with Rome; having agreement by a priest of the diocese to say the Mass according to the 1962 Missal; having an appropriate church or chapel available for the Mass, with the permission of its pastor; etc.

2. Should the indult be denied, an appeals process to Rome might be established, where the Ecclesia Dei folks would look at the evidence presented by the petitioners, versus the ruling of the bishop, and determine whether or not to uphold the ruling of the bishop, or to grant the indult anyway.

Here's another way the process could be subject to a "juridical guarantee":

Plan B
1. Each bishop could be required to draw up a plan to address the needs of Catholics in his see, regarding indult Masses.

2. These plans would be reviewed by the metropolitan archbishop of his province, and altered as recommended by the metropolitan archbishop.

3. Catholics who felt the plan was insufficient could appeal to the Ecclesia Dei folks in Rome, who could adjust the plan as necessary.


There, off the top of my pointy head, there are two ways you could establish a "looser indult" with "juridical guarantees." I could think of a dozen more (but will spare you). All the "gurantee" means is that there would be a formal process, I imagine based in Canon Law or something equivalent thereto, to obtain the indult, and it wouldn't be left to the whim of each individual ordinary.


20 posted on 06/18/2004 2:45:35 PM PDT by Polycarp IV (PRO-LIFE orthodox Catholic--without exception, without compromise, without apology. Any questions?)
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To: kjvail

"What is the difference between tridentine and indult? There are two latin masses? I've never been to either"

Yes - there are two Latin Masses. The Mass as it was prior to 1962 (Tridentine Mass) may only be celebrated in Latin. This is also known as the "Indult" Mass, because it may only be said licitly by virtue of an indult (special privilege) contained in the Pope's motu proprio (a bit like an apostolic letter) called "Ecclesia dei".

The new Mass (Novus Ordo or Missa Normativa) may also be celebrated in Latin at any time by right. However, it is nearly exclusively said in English or the vernacular language of the country concerned.

If you've never been to either, I would recommend that you do, as it will at least give you the sense of our common heritage. You will feel more of a link with the roots of the Church and a communion with all our glorious saints and martyrs from whom we received the faith. You will experience how the Church transcends both time and space.

Ideally a sung Latin Mass or High Mass would be best to try if you can find one.


21 posted on 06/18/2004 2:50:13 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Polycarp IV
What this boils down to is nudging bishops toward approving at least one Tridentine Mass in each diocese.

One of the justifications for the Tridentine Mass, of course, is that there be some number of people at the Mass. Our diocese has one Mass, every Sunday, in downtown Fort Worth, and it draws around 250 people.

I would bet that our bishop would say he has met the provisio for meeting the demand for the Tridentine Mass.

Of course, this will not satisfy those who believe that a Tridentine Mass must be offered in every parish.

22 posted on 06/18/2004 2:58:59 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: sinkspur
There are NO Tridentine masses in my own diocese, or the next closest diocese. I hope this development forces my bishop to provide for one with no recourse except obedience.

It needs to have teeth. Those bishops who obstinantly refuse to provide a tridentine mass according to JPII's wishes, i.e., wide and generous, need to be slapped down hard.

I know two priests here in my diocese learning the Tridentine Mass on their own so that they can offer it as soon as this thing from Rome comes through.

23 posted on 06/18/2004 3:03:51 PM PDT by Polycarp IV (PRO-LIFE orthodox Catholic--without exception, without compromise, without apology. Any questions?)
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: sinkspur

"I would bet that our bishop would say he has met the provisio for meeting the demand for the Tridentine Mass."




Well, Bishop Brown here in Orange, California certainly hasn't met that proviso. We had two Tridentine Masses for many years, until one was abruptly cancelled, leaving about 300 people high and dry. This is a huge diocese geographically, so now people who desire this Mass must travel as much as 50 miles to get to the one in San Juan Capistrano. It is offered in the beautiful Serra Chapel in the Mission, which seats around 60 people. How the bishop expects an additional 300 people to fit there is a mystery. It was already necessary to get there by 7:15 to get a seat for the Mass at 8 A.M.


And even if the Vatican gives general approval for this Mass, try finding a diocesan priest who will step forward to offer it. I would think that, given our bishop's well-known animosity toward anything traditional, most of his priests would rather not risk the inevitable job stress that would follow. Oh yes, priests are transferred all the time, and even sent away for more "studies".

So this whole idea of a "more generous" application is a non-starter, IMO. You're going to see the usual stonewalling, and I wonder if the Vatican is up to the hardball that it will take to bring these bishops into submission. Many of the bishops will fight like tigers to keep the dreaded Traditional Mass out of their liberal dioceses.

I fear we'll just see a beautifully written document (they're ALWAYS well written) with absolutely no teeth whatsoever.

I hope I'm wrong.


25 posted on 06/18/2004 4:16:51 PM PDT by Deo volente (God willing, Terri Schiavo will live.)
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To: Polycarp IV

"I know two priests here in my diocese learning the Tridentine Mass on their own so that they can offer it as soon as this thing from Rome comes through."

These priests should know that by preferring the traditional Latin Mass, their chances of promotion are much worse than the prospect of persecution (remembering that none of the priests from the FSSP and Institute of Christ the King have ever become bishops).
Then again, these priests in your diocese are probably more interested in their heavenly home than a career in Rome.


26 posted on 06/18/2004 4:19:55 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena
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To: Tantumergo

"Juridical guarantee" would SEEM to mean that, at a minimum, each Diocese must offer one TrRite/Sunday, someplace.

But that's not exactly 'wide and generous.'

An interesting formulation, eh?


27 posted on 06/18/2004 4:30:25 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: AAABEST
many of us realize that our problems go way beyond the mass alone.

Two agreements in one week.

Hmmmmmm.

28 posted on 06/18/2004 4:33:18 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: Tantumergo; kjvail
You will experience how the Church transcends both time and space.

Not to mention being at the same Mass at which your grandparents, THEIR parents, their parents' parents, etc., for about 80 generations back.

29 posted on 06/18/2004 4:37:21 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: sinkspur

"I would bet that our bishop would say he has met the provisio for meeting the demand for the Tridentine Mass."

I would bet their are plenty bishops who say the same - including those who don't permit the traditional Latin Mass at all ("there's no demand").
There are other neo-Jansenists who hold that one Low Mass a week in a remote area (on Saturday evening or Sunday afternoon) can be tolerated as long as all the other Sacraments (and corrupted catechesis) are administered in a modernist parish.
Any initiative from the Vatican will inevitably come to down "interpretation" and "collegiality".
As Cardinal Arinze commented in a recent interview:
"The U.S. has bishops, let them interpret that".


30 posted on 06/18/2004 4:37:26 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena
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To: AskStPhilomena; All

In the old movie "The Song of Bernadette," the Lourdes officials boarded up the miraculous spring and refused to allow faithful Catholics to pray there. The local priest asked the bishop what he intended to do about the situation. The bishop replied, "Nothing. If this is from God, God will remove the barrier." God did. The emperor's son took ill, then his fever left after some purloined spring water was used to wipe his brow. The empress was convinced the water from Lourdes had cured him. Down came the fence.

My point is, the Holy Spirit is working this all out, it seems to me. I am convinced it is the paradoxical existence of the SSPX that has forced Rome to accommodate the faithful who have been drifting in ever greater numbers into the Society's chapels. What else could Rome do to prevent further hemorrhaging? Most of the spiritual energy in the Church is coming from the Traditionalist movement--and I include Gibson's movie in this. That can only be because the Holy Spirit is blessing its works.


31 posted on 06/18/2004 5:09:47 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: AskStPhilomena; Tantumergo
"The U.S. has bishops, let them interpret that".

Good point, there will be no relief in the States.

33 posted on 06/18/2004 5:33:23 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Tantumergo

This must be what Cardinal Hoyos was referring to last week when he told the SSPX that "The time is ripe" to come home. Remember?

I've got to say that this is the best news I have heard from Rome in years, and I am elated.

I joined in trashing the new rules that just came from Rome concering the Liturgy, but this I refuse to trash until such time it proves to be a hoax. I have prayed too long and too hard for this.

It MAY turn out not to be all it is cracked up to be, but any movement is more than we had. The Holy Ghost is moving the Vatican in some way. Prayers work


34 posted on 06/18/2004 5:59:33 PM PDT by Arguss
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To: Tantumergo

35 posted on 06/18/2004 6:13:51 PM PDT by Arguss
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To: Arguss; Polycarp IV; sinkspur

IN thinking further about this, and in consultation with another FReeper, I think that the mention of SSPX and Rome's interest in unity is not a co-incidence.

Many will accurately say that their authorized OR Mass (if they have one) does not draw a lot of souls. The Milwaukee Mass, e.g., draws around 400.

However, there are at least THREE UN-authorized OR Masses, as well, in the Archdiocese. Maybe the Bishops will be required to report on the existence of UN-authorized OR Masses, and the attendance thereat, as part of the 'juridical process.' Of course, some Bishops may lie...


36 posted on 06/18/2004 6:27:53 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: Tantumergo

Cardinal Hoyos sentiments aside, the traditional Latin mass and sacraments aren't coming back in any meaningful way any time soon.

A priest doesn't just wake up on Monday morning and decide he's going to say Latin mass the following Sunday.

It takes both skill and time to learn the chants as well as the particular movements and rubrics that the priest must perform. And considering the vast majority of priests don't know enough Latin to read the slogan on a pack of cigarettes, it will take a considerable time to just get them up to competency in the language.

If Hoyos et al are serious about this, they have to begin by making a mandate to the seminaries that no one is ordained unless they are fluent in Latin and are able to say Latin mass when needed. Even then it will definitely take many years to bring back Latin in a meaningful manner.


37 posted on 06/18/2004 6:30:36 PM PDT by I_Like_Spam
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To: AskStPhilomena
Then again, these priests in your diocese are probably more interested in their heavenly home than a career in Rome.

Please. Let's not canonize priests who say the Tridentine Mass, and label as crass priests who celebrate the Novus Ordo. They are both valid Masses.

38 posted on 06/18/2004 6:56:47 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: I_Like_Spam
If Hoyos et al are serious about this, they have to begin by making a mandate to the seminaries that no one is ordained unless they are fluent in Latin and are able to say Latin mass when needed

I got news for you.

The vast majority of priests who said the Tridentine Mass prior to 1962 didn't understand one single word of what they were saying.

39 posted on 06/18/2004 7:01:42 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: sinkspur
Please. Let's not canonize priests who say the Tridentine Mass, and label as crass priests who celebrate the Novus Ordo. They are both valid Masses.

Correct. However, these two young priests are already under active persecution by Adamec. They are too "rigid," and the gays have threatened them: Gay priests of Diocese A-J in revolt; demand Bishop conceal molesters, sue Catholic activists

Unfortunately, one of the priests targeted by these gay priests has left the priesthood now.

40 posted on 06/18/2004 7:07:53 PM PDT by Polycarp IV (PRO-LIFE orthodox Catholic--without exception, without compromise, without apology. Any questions?)
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To: Tantumergo

I haven't been able to find this on google news. I hope this is not a hoax.


41 posted on 06/18/2004 7:11:08 PM PDT by Arguss
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To: sartorius

Thanks for the summary. My copy of LM magazine has not arrived. I'll look for the article.


42 posted on 06/18/2004 7:13:23 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Polycarp IV
However, these two young priests are already under active persecution by Adamec.

See, I don't get this.

Your bishop actually trashes his own priests?

We've got all kinds of priests and deacons in our diocese, and, when we get together, everybody knows everybody else, and nobody is excluded, or ripped, or criticized. We've got factions, to be sure, but it just never occurred to me to not embrace a brother priest or deacon.

And our bishop feels the same way.

This pettiness in the priesthood must be prevalent where there are lots of gays.

43 posted on 06/18/2004 7:25:15 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: sinkspur
Your bishop actually trashes his own priests?


44 posted on 06/18/2004 7:31:54 PM PDT by Polycarp IV (PRO-LIFE orthodox Catholic--without exception, without compromise, without apology. Any questions?)
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To: Polycarp IV

Well, what did Saylor do?


45 posted on 06/18/2004 7:34:38 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: sinkspur
The letter above was written by Adamec to the priest who was my pastor for 20 years growing up. He was retired several days when he received this letter.

This priest talked to the Wanderer about the abuses, liturgical, theological, and sexual, in this diocese over the decades. Thus the letter above.

46 posted on 06/18/2004 7:34:57 PM PDT by Polycarp IV (PRO-LIFE orthodox Catholic--without exception, without compromise, without apology. Any questions?)
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To: sartorius; Tantumergo; livius; sinkspur; Telit Likitis; AskStPhilomena; NYer; AAABEST; Salvation; ..
I just got this edition of Latin Mass and read the entire article before I turned on the computer.

The interview with Cardinal Hoyos was posted on FR a couple of weeks ago.

47 posted on 06/18/2004 7:36:23 PM PDT by ELS
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To: sinkspur

Shut up in terror of losing his health insurance and pension. In this diocese the priests never paid in to social security, so they are completely dependent on the diocesan pension. And Adamec is vindictive enough that he might try to take it away from a good priest like Saylor.


48 posted on 06/18/2004 7:37:04 PM PDT by Polycarp IV (PRO-LIFE orthodox Catholic--without exception, without compromise, without apology. Any questions?)
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To: sinkspur

"The vast majority of priests who said the Tridentine Mass prior to 1962 didn't understand one single word of what they were saying."




How in the world do you know that?


49 posted on 06/18/2004 9:41:03 PM PDT by Deo volente (God willing, Terri Schiavo will live.)
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To: Deo volente
How in the world do you know that?

I attended too many sub-20-minute masses as a kid.

50 posted on 06/18/2004 9:42:19 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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