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Photo Report of Hindu Ritual at Fatima: Pictures of a Desecration
Catholic Family News Special Report ^ | John Vennari

Posted on 06/30/2004 6:04:55 AM PDT by Polycarp IV

Catholic Family News Special Report

Pictures of a Desecration

Photo Report of Hindu Ritual at Fatima

by John Vennari

(article appears below photos)

May 5: Portugal's SIC television announces its
coverage of an "uncommon ecumenical experience".
There will be a Hindu ritual at the Fatima Shrine.

 

Morning prayers in the Radha Krishna temple in Lisbon
 

"All the invocations of the pagans are hateful
to God because all their gods are devils"
- Saint Francis Xavier

 

 A young Hindu woman explains the importance
of their various gods

 

About 60 Hindus travel by bus to Fatima
 

Arrival at the Fatima Shrine
 

The Hindus bring a gift of flowers. For them, Our Lady
of Fatima is a manifestation of one of their gods.
 

SIC broacasting says, "This is a unique event in the
history of the Sanctuary and of devotion itself...
 

...the Hindu priest, the Shastri recites at the (Catholic)
altar the Shanti Pa, the prayer for peace."

 

The Hindu ritual — a ceremony to false gods — desecrates
the Fatima Shrine, making it necessary for the chapel
to be re-consecrated.
 

The "Hindu family of Porgutal" worshipping at the
shrine after the Hindu ceremony.

 

Shrine Rector Guerra speaks approvingly about
the Hindu worship at Fatima

 

Crossing the esplanade to meet the Bishop
and the Shrine Rector

 

Received by the Bishop of Fatima. SIC explains, "the
Hindu pilgrims are received as if they were an embassy,
an unheard of gesture...
 

...which can be understood as an invitation for other visits"
This means that the pagan desecration of Fatima
is likely to happen again.
 

The Bishop of Fatima says,
"We do not want to be fundamentalists"

 

Shrine Rector Guerra receives from the Hindus
a shawl covered with verses of the Baghwad Gita,
a "sacred book" of Hinduism whose basic message
is, all of life is an illusion.
 

The Bishop of Fatima also receives a shawl
laden with verses of pagan mythology.
 

Acknoweldgement to SIC Televisino for video footage from which these photos were extracted.

 

 

Catholic Family News has obtained a video copy of the SIC television broadcast of the Hindu ritual performed at Fatima. As reported last month, the sacrilege took place on May 5 with the blessing of Fatima Shrine Rector Guerra, and the Bishop of Leiria-Fatima, D. Sarafim de Sousa Ferreira e Silva.

SIC, a national television station in Portugal, reported on the Hindu ritual at Fatima the same day it took place. The announcer called it an “ncommon ecumenical experience.”

The broadcast shows morning prayer at the Radha Krishna temple in Lisbon. “Light and water, energy and nature, mark the rhythm of the Arati, the morning prayer,” the announcer says. “Hinduism is the oldest of the great religions. It is characterized by multiple deities, worshiped through a triple dimension of life and sacredness: the creator god, the preserver god, and the god who has the power to destroy.”

Thus the Hindus spent the morning worshiping their false gods, which are nothing more than demons. Saint Francis Xavier, the apostle to India, said of Hinduism: “All the invocations of the pagans are hateful to God because all their gods are devils.”[1]

A young Hindu woman appears on screen with statues of gods in the background. She explains, “This is god Shiva and his wife Parvati. In the center we can see god Rama, to our right his wife Sita and to our left, his brother and companion Lakshmama. Now we can see Krishna Bhagwan and his consort Radha. The deities are always accompanied by their respective consorts or wives. As a rule, when we address the deities or want to ask for their graces, we address the feminine deity, who is very important to us.”

About 60 Hindus, said the broadcast, “leave Lisbon with the chandam, the sign on their foreheads which shows the wish for good fortune in a noble task. And this is the day dedicated to the greatest of all female deities. She is called the Most Holy Mother, the goddess Devi, the deity of Nature who many Portuguese Hindus also find in Fatima.”

Another young Hindu lady explains, “As a Hindu, who believes the whole world, or rather all human beings, are members of a global family, it would be natural for me to see any manifestation of God, including Our Lady of Fatima, as a manifestation of the same God.”

Here, this young lady speaks as a true Hindu, since Hinduism regards the various false gods they worship as manifestations of “God”. Thus, they are not honoring Our Lady as the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ, but worshiping Her as a manifestation of their pagan god.

The newscast then shows the Hindus bringing flowers to the statue of Our Lady inside the Capelinha, the little chapel built over the spot where Our Lady of Fatima appeared. The Hindu priest stands at the Catholic altar and recites a Hindu prayer. Meanwhile, the SIC announcer says, “This is a unique moment in the history of the Sanctuary and of devotion itself. The Hindu priest, the Shastri, recites at the altar the Shanti Pa, the prayer for peace.”

Pope Pius XI, in a liturgical prayer consecrating the human race to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, prayed for the conversion of all who are not members of the Mystical Body. He invoked Our Lord, “be Thou King of all those who are involved with the darkness of idolatry”. [2] This idolatry is now practiced at the Fatima Shrine, desecrating the sacred site, making it necessary for the chapel to be re-consecrated.

In another clip, the Hindu priest explains that he finds a “divine energy” at Fatima. “It is an energy that permeates the whole place,” he says. “ It has the power to be present here, around us. Whenever I come here, I feel this vibration ...”

SIC then explains that the display of this group of Hindus at Fatima “is not well-accepted by all Catholics”. The camera then shifts to Fatima Shrine Rector Guerra who defends Hindu worship at the Catholic Shrine.

“It is obvious” says Rector Guerra, “that these civilizations and religions are quite different. But I think that there is a common background to all religions. There is a common background that, how can I put it, is born from the common humanity we all possess. And it is very important that we recognize this common background, because, due to the clashes of the differences, we sometimes forget our equality. These meetings give us that occasion.”

The Hindus are then welcomed by the Bishop of Leiria-Fatima in a room containing a large model of the modernistic Fatima Shrine now under construction. “This time,” says the broadcast, “the Hindu pilgrims are received as if they were an embassy; an unheard of gesture which can be understood as an invitation for other visits.” This means that the pagan desecration of the Fatima Shrine is likely to happen again and again.

The Bishop of Leiria- Fatima then says, “We don’t want to be fundamentalist, we don’t want that, but we want to be honest, sincere and want to communicate by osmosis the fruitfulness of our rituals, so that we may produce fruits. I am pleased to meet them.”

At this point, the Hindu priest places on the shoulders of the Bishop of Leiria- Fatima and Shrine Rector Guerra a shawl covered with verse of the Bhagwad Gita, one of Hinduism’s sacred books.

The report ends with a close-up of a guest book that includes the signatures of Pope John Paul II, Mother Teresa, and a Hindu high priest. It goes on to say that Hindus intend to keep Fatima “on the road map of places where they claim they can find vibrations of holiness...”

Catholic Family News has reported on the interfaith orientation at Fatima since it was launched at the interreligious Congress held at Fatima in October 2003.[4] We warned repeatedly that this type of desecration was inevitable if Catholics did not resist the new ecumenical program.

Predictably, the enablers of the “New Fatima” such as Father Robert J. Fox ridiculed our efforts and tried to dissuade Catholics from taking us seriously. Father Fox, on an April 25 EWTN broadcast, claimed that the reports about the interfaith activity at Fatima were nothing but "fabrications,” that he knows Shrine Rector Guerra personally, and that Rector Guerra would never allow such interfaith activities to take place. Less than two weeks after this EWTN broadcast, the Fatima Shrine was desecrated by pagan worship, with the blessing of Rector Guerra and the Bishop of Leiria- Fatima.

Pope Leo XIII, along with his predecessors taught “we are bound absolutely to worship God in the way which He has shown to be His will".[3] Hinduism worships false gods who are demons. It is sacrilegious for Rector Guerra and the Bishop of Fatima to permit these rituals in a Catholic sanctuary.

Pope Pius XI called it “ignominious” to place the true religion of Jesus Christ “on the same level with false religions”.[5] Pope Leo XIII likewise taught “it is contrary to reason that error and truth should have equal rights.”[6]  Thus the “equality” that Msgr. Guerra speaks of, and his notion of various religions coming from a “com mon background,” defies Catholic truth.

Rector Guerra and the Bishop of Leiria-Fatima are also guilty of grave scandal. Their actions tell these poor Hindus, who are in bondage to a heathen religion, that they are pleasing to God as they are. This is contrary to the manifest will of Christ, Who said, “No one comes to the Father but through Me.” “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, He who does not believe will be condemned.” Hindus reject Jesus Christ. They have no interest in baptism or in the truths revealed by God. Rector Guerra and the Bishop of Lierra of Fatima counsel and encourage this apostasy. By their bad example, they scandalize not only the Hindus, but others who observe their actions.

“Scandal” says Saint Thomas Aquinas, “is a word or act which gives occasion to the spiritual ruin of one’s neighbor.” Saint Leo calls the authors of scandal murderers who kill not the body but the soul. Saint Bernard says that, in speaking of sinners in general, the Scriptures hold out hope of amendment and pardon, but the Scriptures speak of those who give scandal, as persons separated from God, of whose salvation there is very little hope.[7]

Perhaps this is why we see a spiritual blindness in these men. They persist in their apostasy despite the outrage from concerned Catholics. Nonetheless, we must pray for them.

And what of the Hindus themselves? The Shastri comes to Fatima because he feels there a “divine energy,” “vibrations of holiness”. Members of all religions worship the same god and are part of the “global family”.

This is the language of paganism, not of our received Catholic tradition. "Holy vibrations” is what Hindus call Shakti, and they go to various places to seek it. They will rush to be in the presence of the Dalai Lama or Pope John Paul II or Ghandi because this gives them Darshan, the good fortune that comes from being in the sight of a holy man. Each and every one of their terms is rooted in heathen superstition, not in the truths revealed by Christ.

In short, the Hindus did not go to the Fatima Shrine to be Catholicized. Rather, they Hinduized the Fatima Shrine, folding their pagan myths and superstitions into one of Catholicism’s most sacred sites.

This is not honoring the Mother of God, but a blasphemy against Her, since there is nothing honorable in placing Our Lady on the same level as one more goddess in their pantheon of demonic deities. “What concord hath Christ with Belial?”, says Saint Paul, “or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever?” (2 Cor. 6:15)

At the end of the visit, the Hindus presented Msgr. Guerra and the Bishop of Fatima with a shawl covered with verse of the Bhagwad Gita. This book contains a story which illustrates a central tenet of Hinduism.

Arjuna, a warrior, is on the eve of a great battle. He dreads the next day, because he knows he will have to kill his friends, relatives, teachers. Arjuna's charioteer, who turns out to be the god Krishna in disguise, tells Arjuna not to fear the coming battle because none of it is real. No one is going to die. All of it, and all of life, is illusion.

Arjuna then thrusts himself into the bloody conflict believing it to be his Dharma, his given path, to hack his friends and relatives to pieces. It is all illusion anyway. No one really dies. This is Hinduism in a nutshell. You are god, everything else is illusion.[8]

Catholics who behold the Fatima Shrine Rector and the Bishop of Fatima draped in shawls laden with verses from a pagan mythology, certainly would wish that the Hindu desecration of Fatima was an illusion, that none of it was real.

But no, it really happened. And Catholics must register their outrage to Rome and to Fatima, as they offer prayers of reparation for Catholic leaders who hand over the chapel of Our Lady of Fatima to a religion whose god is the devil.

Notes:

1. Saint Francis Xavier, James Brodrick, S.J., (New York: Wicklow Press, 1952), p. 135.

2. Consecration of the Human Race to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Pope Pius XI, published along with the Encyclical Quas Primas, “On the Kingship of Christ”, 1925.

3. Imortale Dei, 1885.

4. See J. Vennari: “Fatima to Become an Interfaith Shrine? An Account from One Who Was There", (CFN, December, 2003), "More News on the Fatima Interfaith Program",  (CFN, Jan., 2004), "Shrine Rector Confirms New Interfaith Orientation at Fatima", (CFN, Feb., 2004), Hindu Ritual Performed at Fatima Shrine, (CFN, May, 2004).

5. Quas Primas, 1925.

6. Libertas, 1888.

7. Quotes taken from Sermons of Saint Alphonsus Liguori, “On Scandal,” (Rockford: Tan Books, reprinted 1982), pp. 168-181.

8. For more, see “The Dharma of Deception”, Edwin Faust, Catholic Family News, November, 1998.

 

Reprinted from the July, 2004 edition of
Catholic Family News
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TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; fatima; fatimadesecration; fatimahindu; hindu; olf
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1 posted on 06/30/2004 6:04:55 AM PDT by Polycarp IV
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To: .45MAN; AAABEST; AKA Elena; al_c; american colleen; Angelus Errare; annalex; Annie03; Antoninus; ...
This should put an end to the debate over whether this event actually occurred.

Ping. (As usual, if you would like to be added to or removed from my "conservative Catholics" ping list, please send me a FReepmail. Please note that this is occasionally a high volume ping list and some of my ping posts are long.)"

2 posted on 06/30/2004 6:06:07 AM PDT by Polycarp IV
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To: Polycarp IV

Thanks for posting this. Some may complain about the source, but facts are facts, and this time, he's got the goods.


3 posted on 06/30/2004 6:13:20 AM PDT by B Knotts
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To: Polycarp IV

I hope the idiot Catholic clerics who permitted this to happen had enough sense to remove the host from the tabernacle.


4 posted on 06/30/2004 6:16:34 AM PDT by COBOL2Java (If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading this in English, thank a soldier.)
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To: Polycarp IV

Later in the day when I have some time I will explain for those reading this thread what Hinduism actually is, and what the basic message of the Bhagavad Gita is (as someone who has studied it for over 3 decades). Whoever wrote the article hasn't read it or if they did, they must have skipped whole chapters.

I find it particularly unfortunate that Hinduism is not seen as the monotheistic religion that it is. Of course, some Hindus don't understand their own traditions. But we see that happening in Christianity as well.

The author mentions that Hindus reject Jesus Christ. Those I know don't reject Him. Only ignorant fanatic ones would. They don't accept him as the only incarnation of God, though. I certainly don't want to upset anyone on this thread and/or try to convince anyone about the real nature of the so-called Hindu religion (the ancient religion of the Vedas) but I feel called to correct a few misrepresenations in the article.

Thanks for the ping.


5 posted on 06/30/2004 6:21:16 AM PDT by little jeremiah (http://www.mikegabbard.com - a REAL conservative running for Congress!)
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To: Polycarp IV
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us!


6 posted on 06/30/2004 6:46:12 AM PDT by ELS
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To: little jeremiah
However we view Hinduism or whatever the context of this event, there can be no doubt that this is blatant and bald-faced desecration at it's worst. It's an outright rejection of the very first commandment at one of our holiest sites.
7 posted on 06/30/2004 6:48:08 AM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: little jeremiah

BTTT


8 posted on 06/30/2004 6:50:08 AM PDT by Ff--150 (Shreem)
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Polycarp IV

This just makes me sick. I don't know what else to say.


10 posted on 06/30/2004 6:55:08 AM PDT by samiam1972 (Live simply so that others may simply live!)
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To: sandyeggo

I can understand why Catholics are unhappy, I just figured I would at least set the record straight about a couple of misunderstandings in the article.

I know Hindus would be very upset if people came into a temple wearing shoes, for instance, or permforming rites in that were repellent (can't imagine what at the moment).


11 posted on 06/30/2004 7:03:28 AM PDT by little jeremiah (http://www.mikegabbard.com - a REAL conservative running for Congress!)
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To: Akron Al; Alberta's Child; Andrew65; AniGrrl; Antoninus; apologia_pro_vita_sua; attagirl; ...

Fatima ping


12 posted on 06/30/2004 7:04:33 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: little jeremiah
The reactions on this thread must be hard for you to read. Please understand it's not the people visiting that is the problem, they're innocent. It's OUR people which are causing the problem.

One by-product of their stupid, evil attempts to satisfy the world is that they're likely to create tension between Hindus and Christians that didn't previously exist.

13 posted on 06/30/2004 7:12:50 AM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: Polycarp IV

You know, I thought I could not be shocked. But I am. Those who permit these desecrations do not have the Catholic faith--and that includes many in the Holy See itself--and perhaps even the Pope.


14 posted on 06/30/2004 7:19:17 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: COBOL2Java
I hope the idiot Catholic clerics who permitted this to happen...

The idiot clerics to whom you refer are at the very top of the top in Rome. A high profile event such as this at FATIMA would never be able to take place without full approval at the highest levels. This is not some loose cannon nest of clerics acting on their own accord, it's much more than that.

At times, one honestly can't fault those who believe the see is vacant or that there is some concerted effort to create some kind of man-made world religion from hell.

15 posted on 06/30/2004 7:21:45 AM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: little jeremiah

Spare us the lecture. Their faith is false. They have no business expressing it at a Catholic altar.


16 posted on 06/30/2004 7:22:46 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: AAABEST

I don't fault the sedevacantists. It's very difficult to resist their logic.


17 posted on 06/30/2004 7:30:19 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: AAABEST; little jeremiah
One by-product of their stupid, evil attempts to satisfy the world is that they're likely to create tension between Hindus and Christians that didn't previously exist.

I don't think that's quite true. I think the Christians in India feel very discriminated against.

From our time in Jersey, I have known many India Indians. They are good people and they make for excellent neighbors (if you don't mind the smell of curry, a popular Indian spice). Many of the Hindus would put up Christmas trees.

I don't really know anything about Hinduism, but if it is a monotheistic religion, I believe then that their god takes many, perhaps all, forms - men, women, snakes, cows, and even a part of the male anatomy (Shiva is his name, I believe). There is also a Zeuslike figure whose name escapes me, maybe Vishnu. We've not stayed in touch with any of our New Jersey neigbors, so I can't check any of this out with any actual Indians.

I believe that Our Lady of Fatima could lead these Hindus to Our Lord, but what happened there truly seems an abomination.

18 posted on 06/30/2004 7:35:23 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: little jeremiah
I find it particularly unfortunate that Hinduism is not seen as the monotheistic religion that it is.

Hinduism is pantheistic, isn't it? As far as I know, only Brahmin Hinduism comes close to monotheism.

19 posted on 06/30/2004 7:37:33 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: AAABEST
Read enough stuff by the dead jesuit author Malachi Martin and this desecration is very understandable. There is a whole phalanx of vatican and institutional religious salivating at the thought of making Catholicism more "universal", appealing to non-catholics , "user friendly" and part of the a'new world order".

Pope JP2 has done more to stem the anti-tradition tide than will ever be reported by the complicit western media.

All the invocations of the pagans are hateful to God because all their gods are devils" - Saint Francis Xavier

All the pagan gods are fallen angels who threw in with the prince of darkness in his quest for an earthly kingdom where he reigned supreme. Until the facts are carefully delineated, ascertained and described as the roots of human history, they will be regarded simply as mythological musings, and there will be warm and fuzzy priests and bishops promoting sacrileges in the name of Jesus.

The problem with Christianity today is that its factual origins and underpinnings have been relegated to the realms of mythology and psychology. Episcopal Bishop Spong clearly staes that God is a concept - not a real entity and that heaven and all the fallen angels are psychological constructs. The born again evangelicals read more into the final chapters of the new testament than the authors could ever have dreamed. Evangelicals use shady conjectues as facts and expect us all to live in fear of a prophesied doom

20 posted on 06/30/2004 7:39:59 AM PDT by Podkayne
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To: ultima ratio; little jeremiah
Spare us the lecture. Their faith is false. They have no business expressing it at a Catholic altar.

Please don't spare us the lecture. I would like to understand the Hindu faith. I would genuinely like to hear an explanation of your religion, so long as you are willing to listen to an explanation of ours. If you understood Catholic Christianity, little jeremiah, you would understand why it is we Catholics are so upset.

Perhaps when you get some time you could start a new thread with a kind of Hinduism 101.

21 posted on 06/30/2004 7:40:33 AM PDT by old and tired
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Polycarp IV; *Catholic_list; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; ...
This should put an end to the debate over whether this event actually occurred.

Amen!

23 posted on 06/30/2004 7:55:44 AM PDT by NYer ("Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels.")
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To: Polycarp IV; *Catholic_list; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; ...
This should put an end to the debate over whether this event actually occurred.

Amen!

24 posted on 06/30/2004 7:56:15 AM PDT by NYer ("Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels.")
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To: old and tired
I believe that Our Lady of Fatima could lead these Hindus to Our Lord, but what happened there truly seems an abomination.

Correct statement on both accounts.

I'm not a "miracles" type of guy, I'm really not. The thing about Fatima is that even if you're a scientist, apostate or believer of false gods it truly has the power to convert. It happened recently, in front of thousands of people and has there are no credible detractors. It truly was a miracle in every sense of the word.

A proper way to handle other (false) religions would be to have a process in place to get them there to attend a mass or maybe educate them as to what happened.

Putting their holy men up preaching err shows an unbridled contempt for our triune God. By giving believers of false idolatry any notion that what they're doing is correct we're not loving them, we're hating them in the worst possible way.

25 posted on 06/30/2004 7:57:14 AM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: Polycarp IV

I think I'm going to hurl.


26 posted on 06/30/2004 8:00:37 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: AAABEST

You've stated my thoughts so much better than I ever could. Thank you.


28 posted on 06/30/2004 8:05:13 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: Unam Sanctam

Fatima ping.

Have the scales fallen from your eyes yet?


29 posted on 06/30/2004 8:05:19 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Polycarp IV

I am speechless. The people from de Nile almost had me convinced, but here is the smoking gun.


30 posted on 06/30/2004 8:05:29 AM PDT by k omalley
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To: Polycarp IV

Horrendous.


31 posted on 06/30/2004 8:09:58 AM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: Polycarp IV

Oh man, this is enough to make me cry....


32 posted on 06/30/2004 8:31:00 AM PDT by Romish_Papist (USAF Security Forces (1994-2003) Soon to be ANG.)
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To: little jeremiah
I am looking forward to your comments about Hinduism. I have appreciated receiving the articles you post on homosexuality and find your accompanying observations and thoughts,concise yet profound. Quite a feat!!

I am very apprehensive about the motives and the effects of this "event" at Fatima. But I know that if there are misunderstandings and/or errors in the report I need to know what they are. The more facts I have,the more truth I possess the better armed I am to defend Jesus Christ and the Church He established. Thanks for all you do.

33 posted on 06/30/2004 8:48:19 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: old and tired

I'm all for cordial relations with other religions--in a conference room or banquet hall. But not at the altar of a Catholic shrine. This is syncretism and indifferentism at its worst--thanks to the present pope.


34 posted on 06/30/2004 8:51:39 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: old and tired

If you believe this, you are part of the problem--you are swallowing the Novus Ordo talking points, hook line and sinker.


35 posted on 06/30/2004 8:55:29 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: AAABEST

Thanks for your concern - I can understand why people are upset; I would be upset if someone (for instance) came in front of my home shrine or a temple wearing shoes, turning their back on the altar, or uttered blasphemy. More than upset!

At the same time, there is very little understanding of the real religion of Hinduism, and I would like to remedy this if people don't mind. Not trying to proselytize, but just for informational purposes. Many Hindus don't understand the real meanings of the rituals they perform, or the real nature of the "gods" they worship. In fact, the Bhagavad Gita ("Song of God") condemns the worship of demigods. I will post something later today for those who want to see what the basic teachings of Hinduism are.

I have the greatest respect for sincere Catholics, and find a lot of similarity in many respects. I would never try to "convert" anyone who is sincerely following Jesus' teachings, and only wish them well.


36 posted on 06/30/2004 8:59:35 AM PDT by little jeremiah (http://www.mikegabbard.com - a REAL conservative running for Congress!)
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To: Podkayne

"Pope JP2 has done more to stem the anti-tradition tide than will ever be reported by the complicit western media"

Bull. He is in all-out war against Catholic Tradition. No pope has done more to harm the Church. The faith has all but collapsed in Europe--and why not? Catechesis is in a shambles, seminaries are fully corrupt, Rome's credibility has imploded, and bishops don't give a damn. Meanwhile he has just published a book of nature poetry--perhaps to show us where his heart is at.


37 posted on 06/30/2004 9:01:56 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: little jeremiah
I would never try to "convert" anyone...

That's one of the differences between you and real Catholics.

38 posted on 06/30/2004 9:05:13 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: seamole

Yeah, he also said we would know the false prophets by their fruits. This is the fruit of JPII's radical ecumenism. It is as poisonous to the faith as his other enterprises.


39 posted on 06/30/2004 9:06:04 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: saradippity

Thanks for your kind words. I see all monotheists - sincere ones - as brothers and sisters, despite our differences in theology. We share so many of the same values, that if can focus more on the basics we share, we can more successfully fight the atheistic, moral relativist, hedonist, homosexualist, secularists (more accurately, God-haters) who want to turn our entire planet into their fiefdom and silence all expression of religion.

When they're defeated, we can more peacefully discuss theology.

(I will be posting on this thread later in the day.)

P.S. (I'm leaving aside the whole Muslim topic; even though the fanatics claim to believe in God, they are so illusioned and full of hate they obviously are not worshipping God at all. Another whole topic.)


40 posted on 06/30/2004 9:06:12 AM PDT by little jeremiah (http://www.mikegabbard.com - a REAL conservative running for Congress!)
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To: Land of the Irish

I meant that I would never try to aggressively convert anyone who is happy in their path to God. If someone is searching, not feeling connected to God, then I would be happy to help them understand God and get closer to Him as best I could. And I have spent a lot of time doing just that.

To try to pry someone away from their religious faith would be fanatical. If someone is faithfully practicing the Catholic religion, I'm happy with that. Love for God is the goal, that's all.


41 posted on 06/30/2004 9:12:38 AM PDT by little jeremiah (http://www.mikegabbard.com - a REAL conservative running for Congress!)
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To: Land of the Irish; .45MAN; AAABEST; AKA Elena; al_c; american colleen; Angelus Errare; annalex; ...
little jeremiah is a practicing Vedic Hindu. She is monotheistic in her beliefs, but is not a fellow Christian by our definition.

However, she is far more "Catholic" in her world view than the vast majority of American Catholic bishops. Her views on morality are almost 100% in accord with Catholic moral theology.

So though we do not consider her a fellow Christian, she is a fellow monotheistic believer and a solid reliable ally in the culture wars. I also consider her a personal friend, and we have had extensive conversations offline about the culture wars and the ability of Catholics to work hand in hand in fighting for morality with practicing Hindus like her. Please treat her with the dignity and repect she deserves for her courageous witness in the culture wars, especially pro-life and homosexuality battles.

42 posted on 06/30/2004 9:25:18 AM PDT by Polycarp IV
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To: little jeremiah
I will post something later today for those who want to see what the basic teachings of Hinduism are.

Good, it will foster better understanding among us all. Thank you for having the charity to respond calmly on this thread, my FRiend.

43 posted on 06/30/2004 9:30:21 AM PDT by Polycarp IV
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To: little jeremiah

Look, it doesn't matter what Hindus believe, whether it's a monotheistic or polytheistic faith. The particulars are irrelevant. Our problem is not with them, our problem is with the clergy who have permitted this--and that must include the pontiff.

What is annoying is that already there are those on this site eager to alter their psychologies to accept the abomination. You offer information and they are avid to absorb it--as if it might mitigate what has happened. They want to believe there's some answer to this besides the fact that it is a sacrilege allowed by those at the top.


44 posted on 06/30/2004 9:33:25 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
This IS a sacrilege that goes to the highest reaches of the Vatican, which has done NOTHING to correct it or reverse the public scandal. It IS an abomination of desolation! That Chapel MUST be purified!

On these things I agree.

However, little jeremiah is on my ping list and is a trusted, reliable friend in the culture wars. Frankly, she does far MORE to fight the secular humanist and homosexualist agendas on THIS FORUM that the majority of self proclaimed trads here.

So take your petty insults and shove them.

45 posted on 06/30/2004 9:41:31 AM PDT by Polycarp IV
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To: Polycarp IV
'The Bishop of Leiria- Fatima then says, “We don’t want to be fundamentalist, we don’t want that, but we want to be honest, sincere and want to communicate by osmosis the fruitfulness of our rituals, so that we may produce fruits. I am pleased to meet them.”'

What a shame. Will no one in charge put a stop to such indifferent-ism?
46 posted on 06/30/2004 9:41:43 AM PDT by johnb2004
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To: Polycarp IV
However, she is far more "Catholic" in her world view than the vast majority of American Catholic bishops.

8-) From her other posts I would have guessed she was Catholic.

47 posted on 06/30/2004 10:10:04 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: little jeremiah
I'm leaving aside the whole Muslim topic; even though the fanatics claim to believe in God, they are so illusioned and full of hate they obviously are not worshipping God at all. Another whole topic.)

Are you Indian? Regardless, what's your take on the Hindu/Muslim relationship in India?

48 posted on 06/30/2004 10:13:02 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: ultima ratio

Exactly which belief is it that makes me part of the problem - that Indians are good people and make for good neighbors or that the Blessed Mother can lead people to Our Lord?


49 posted on 06/30/2004 10:14:45 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: ultima ratio

Don't you know any other tunes?


50 posted on 06/30/2004 10:15:57 AM PDT by Romulus ("For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God.")
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