Posted on 07/16/2004 6:09:37 PM PDT by narses
Reviewer: jim.moriarty@xxxxxxxxx Sylvania, Ohio United States)
This confirms what I thought was going on in the Novus Ordo Church. These priests see the Liberal-Modernist overtones of the New Mass and reject it. They literally go through HELL to get back to the sacrificing priest concept who offers up Jesus Christ for our sins, like in the Old Testament, not a Good Time "Happy Meal" as the Novus Ordo has it. I didn't want to put it down. These men are REAL HEROES, bucking the Catholic establishment, giving up EVERYTHING, (pension, medical insurance, housing, etc.) for their beliefs.
Some are even "suspended", and/or without faculties, and literally cast aside by their Liberal Bishops. Yet they persevere giving the True Mass to the faithful. Many are 25-40 years into their priesthood. They are sure of their actions to a man. INSPIRING! HOPEFUL! The future of the Catholic Church as the sex scandals blow up on all sides!! A MUST READ for all Catholics who know somethings' wrong, but just couldn't put their finger on it. THIS puts the finger ON IT!!! IN SPADES!!
Ping. If you've read the book, please indicate with your commnets.
I have the book. I've read parts of it. My beloved Msgr. R's story is there. He is wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Brilliant. I finally met him in person and spent two hours talking to him. Msgr. R said around the time of Vatican II, and perhaps before, the modernist theologians were becoming quite active. The priests believed those at the top would take action to neutralize them. Instead, VII happened and the modernists took control. He believes we are in a time of great heresy and persecution for all believers is coming.
This is the book that’s been sent to every Catholic priest in the United States —all 45,915 of them! Over 300 have actually begun correspondance with the priests involved and with the SSPX.
I've read it also. Very well done, very compelling.
The book that’s been sent to every Catholic priest in the United States —all 45,915 of them!
Seventeen Roman Catholic priests (none of whom are formally members of the Society of Saint Pius X) explain why they celebrate the old rite of the Latin Mass instead of the New Mass. In question and answer format, these priests tell their trials and triumphs over the Novus Ordo establishment. Inspiring and often heroic examples of fidelity to their priestly vocation.
One of the featured priests wrote this article on St Joseph recently published in The Angelus...
http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/2004_April/Heart_St_Joseph.htm
and posted here...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1173003/posts
Probably every traditionalist priest has a story of struggle to relate; at least some of these situations are now starting to appear in print.
I read the book, and though the arguments presented were good, the book itself was poorly edited and conceived.
Unfortunately with priests with whom I've discussed this book, the common concern was that the book belittles the first and primary hurdle for any priest, especially our retired priests here. These priests need to know exactly how they are going to make a living if they cut their ties to Rome, and what exactly it means in real terms to be suspended a divinis from the Church by a validly ordained bishop of the Church.
Priests here for a long time never contributed to social security, so in their retirement the only income they have is their diocesan pension, and their only healthcare is their diocesan health plan.
I think they need to do a revised edition of the book where these issues are realistically addressed right up front.
The book seems to belittle these concerns, which IMO has kept many priests from responding to the message of the book itself.
Haven't been able to get a copy of it yet.
"These priests need to know exactly how they are going to make a living if they cut their ties to Rome, ..."
Yep. For most of them, it's a JOB. So very sad.
Tan has it, the Remnant bookstore does as well.
That is a cruel, unjustly broad mischaracterization, Narses.
I don't talk much with priests who consider their priesthood "just a job." Furthermore, those priests would simply throw away this book.
I was talking about retired priests who might come out of retirement and say the Tridentine Mass. However, if they did so, they would be persecuted and left destitute by their bishops, who control their pensions and health benefits.
Try to tell a priest that takes a couple hundreds dollars worth of medication a month to "just have faith" when they will literally die if they can't afford their meds.
Try to be a little more charitable in how you answer this time, OK? I think your FReepmail to us would be a good thing to review first.
Yes it is, but based on the book and your comments, it is a dominant issue within the secular or diocesan priesthood. Benefits, pay and pensions matter more than God. I saw a poster suggest diocesan priests vow poverty, I agree. If we get mamon out of the way, God has a better chance.
To paraphrase a "singer" named after the Blessed Mother;
I'm a material priest,
in a material world.
One more point, due to the lack of faith based feedback, even pius priests become jaded. They do need to know that the natural needs will be taken care of, but what do they tell you and me? God will provide. And He does! They need to believe that. From a market based perspective, they ought to know that they will be OK, the demand actually far exceeds the supply.
Next point, how many priests walk away from their calling? Too many. Some for sex, others for the rest of the 'world'. If the SSPX or the FSSP started offering just money, what would the USCCB say?
(and ourselves, for that matter)
Exactly. Thank you.
I have read the book, and it's dead on truth!
They gave the book out to everyone at our Chapel, and our dear, dear, late pastor, Fr. Wickens was one of the participants in the book.
It's a crying shame that in the name of defending the Faith, these good and holy priests are literally cast out of their parishes, left to be destitute with no pension, medical coverage, etc. But almost every one of the priests in the book has said, "God will provide", and He has.
Our parish was so generous to Fr. Wickens, that even our Chapel, which was built in 1996, has no mortgage!!
Unfortunately, these holy priests are suffering souls in the Church Militant. Although now, they are well taken care of by the Faithful who are being led by them, they continue to be harrassed by the Liberals and Modernists. Modernists are threatened by the courage of these good priests.
As a footnote to this, When Fr. Wickens was on his deathbed, he asked one of the priests who was going to take over his position at our Chapel to "please take care of my flock". He promised him he would. We need more priests like this.
Do you remember when that occurred? I didn't get a copy and right now I'm not in a position to buy a copy.
The people who attend SSPX Masses take care of their priests both active and retired.
The book states that none of the priests interviewed are with the SSPX, but its good to know this regardless. Thanks.
Did Fr. Wickens make any announcements to the parish DIRECTLY, that is FROM THE PULPIT, about whom he wished to take over the chapel?
The newspaper interview with Fr. Wickens brother, immediately after Fr. Wickens' death, stated that the matter has not yet been decided in the least.
If Fr. Wickens wished that the chapel be administered by the SSPX after his death, but still be owned by the congregation, or his family, trustees, etc. then that is fine. If he wished to GIVE it outright to the SSPX that raises red flags, but so be it.
If he DID NOT wish either, then that is a problem.
He should have formulated his intentions well in advance and made them known explicitly to the congregation if he wished them to be carried out.
As for the books distributed gratis to the parishoners, that is your "compensation" for handing it over to them lock, stock, and barrel. As many other chapels have found out, never expect the congregation to be consulted about anything once the SSPX have the deed in their name.
I assume to enforce their possesion, the SSPX will turn it immediately into a priory, and have three priests stationed there for the entire week.
Interestingly SSPX chapels in Chicago, Philadelphia and other large cities have NEVER been staffed full time or have been permitted to have schools. They only staff smaller locations that they surmise will have less resistance to their own particular ideologies that are NOT part of the Catholic Faith. As one example, Fr. Van Derputten's assertion in a speech that the U.S. was on the wrong side in WW II>
Of course Fr. Peter's Scott's usual response to remonstrations over the SSPX' failure to live up to their promises of ful time clergy, schools, etc, once his numerous lies no longer worked, was to fulminate a purge, and then another, and hey, another for good measure after that! Have to keep "them", the laity, in their place.
The 'technical terminology' is control freak. It is, however, for a purpose, and that is to INTENTIONALLY destroy and render futile all resitance, even spiritual, to the false church of vatican ii.
The purges usually send the faithful, and even some of their priests, straight back into the arms of the 'concilar church". The congregations, despite the numerous children, are smaller than ten years in the past.
Most of the original items on Bill Grosklass' web site on the Chicago purge have been removed as out of date but some still remain. Unfortunately the author was typical of the 'true believers' in the SSPX who think the SSPX the Catholic Church - in other words no one else, and once they have their bubble burst, they abandon the true Faith and true Church and run back into the maws of hell of the novus ordo.
Which is why I surmise such a pathetic, ineffective, contradictory resistance was permitted to be mounted to the hell of the concilar church of vatican ii; to render all serious opposition to the apostate church of vatican ii futile. Lenin's own counterfeit creation of a false resistance to the Bolsheviks was a piker in comparision.
As just one example that may be similar to your own chapel's fate, in the late 1990's the seizure of Monsignor Donahue's chapel after his death by the SSPX under Fr. Scott. The chapel had been solely owned by Msgr. Donahue and he left it in his will to Fr. Berry AS HIS CHOSEN SUCCESSOR.
The SSPX 'graciously offered' to help Msgr. Donahue in his illness - and that was all she wrote.
One of Msgr. Donahue's parishoners contributed a significant amout of money to pay the legal bills to fight the takeover by the SSPX at Our Lady of the Angels in Arcadia, California, but they still unfortunately lost the battle.
The parishoner's name is Mel Gibson.
That chapel currently publishes a glossy flier to promote itself that states that Mel: "for a period of time attended the Latin Mass at our Lady of the Angels Church in Arcadia, California."
This flier has been distributed by the SSPX throughout the U.S. as a "nihil obstat" for their own organization.
We could go on with many examples of their duplicity, but one more should suffice: when Fr. Kelly was still part of the outfit, one of the trustees of my own chapel secretly deeded the place over to the SSPX. It had been purchased from the Episcopalian diocese and five families mortgaged their houses in order to purchase the property. No one knew about the trustee's treachery until the 1983 split between the SSPV and he resulting court fight between the two entities for property.
Amazingly, our parish LOST the property to the SSPX in court becasue the judge handed it over them "because they had a superior", Abp. Lefebvre.
We are in a fight for the Faith, the Church, for billions of souls, for Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and all the SSPX is concerned with is enriching its own piddling little fiefdom for the eventual day when it fully betrays all of its faithful and brings their souls back to the hell on earth of the apostate church.
Nothing.
That is not necessarily true. Fr. Wickens often provided books free to the congregation. During Lent each year he would provide a book, usually by St. Alphonsus Ligouri, for Lenten reading. When I was instructed by Fr. Wickens upon returning to the Faith, he gave me a copy of An Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales. When it came to saving souls and defending the true Faith, Fr. Wickens was very generous.
Sounds like some of the fights the Baptists have down here in Texas. What with the SSPX, the SSPV, and all these independent chapels, the radical traditionalist movement is coming to resemble the Protestants in their congregationalism.
Fealty to a pastor takes the place of fealty to the Successor of St. Peter.
They remove themselves, Mom. They become renegades because they cannot abide obedience to a bishop or Pope.
If a priest wants to go into business for himself, then he can't participate in the corporate 401K or health plan.
What about the bishops who "remove themselves" when they are not obedient to Rome or God? Why aren't they kicked out sans benefits?
What specific disobediences do you have in mind?
If a priest decides, on his own, to celebrate a non-normative Mass, he has to have permission from the bishop.
In a period of one year, while a particular SSPX priest visited a dying Catholic priest in a nursing home almost every weekend in order to obtain his chapel, this same SSPX priest stiffed three laity on the last rites - while he was in town at the parish.
One widow at least went back to the novus ordo - because they at least came when called - even if it was with invalid priests and invalid rites.
As for the chapel of the dying priest - a different thief wound up stealing it, closed it down, and sold the property.
"Unfortunately the author was typical of the 'true believers' in the SSPX who think the SSPX the Catholic Church - in other words no one else"
Although there may be some misguided individuals out there who behave as if "outside the SSPX there is no salvation", most Catholics only turn to the SSPX for refuge in the modernist storm - realizing that it's certainly not a perfect society - but better than other available options. These are perilous times, and with much of the Church in open apostasy, let's not despise those families who seek solace with the SSPX, and let's hope they don't despise others who take a different route e.g. the "indult" option.
He was thrown out onto the street.
The property for the chapel was originally stolen by the latter mentioned thief from a family of my acquaitance. They were basically dininherited and the family, with the wife in terminal stages of MS, are living penniless in a trailer somewhere in Phoenix.
One widow at least went back to the novus ordo - because they at least came when called - even if it was with invalid priests and invalid rites.
LOL!!! The parable of the Good Samaritan comes to mind.
Who did Jesus point to as the model?
Sometimes we Novus Ordo have our priorities straight even with our "invalid" rites and priests.
You sedes are too much!
The problem is when they are basically taught from the pulpit "Extra SSPX Nulla Salus". I am calling to task the SSPx itself, the clerics who are its superiors and those of its priests, not all by any means, who attempt to indoctrinate the same insanity in its laity.
If the laity start believing this themselves then they are to be pitited because they are in for a rude awakening.
My point as to the SSPX, was the lesson to be gathered from The Iliad: "Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts".
Some interesting infighting.
This recalls what we discussed a couple days ago about priests like Fr. Zigrang and the ones in the book, and even a priest like Fr. Haley of Arlington. They chose to renounce all comfort and financial security. They have made the heroic sacrifice for the sakes of the Catholic faith.
Personally I believe that a bigger hurdle than the financial one, although I agree with you that is a major issue, is the persecution and slander that you know you will suffer. The priest considering making the jump knows for sure that he will be vilified for his choice.
To me this is a sign that it is the right choice. We know with certainty that following Christ means a life of poverty and persecution. If we are rich and comfortable, then almost by definition we cannot be truly following the example of Christ. If everyone praises us, then we cannot really be acting Christ-like.
This message will reverberate with the right kind of priest. The Jesuit seminary in Douai that was sending priests into Elizabethan England had nothing to offer these men except the certainty of eventual arrest and torture and execution. Yet they found many who were willing to accept this bargain.
Priests who wish to remain loyal to the traditional Catholic faith today realize that they must sacrifice financial security, position and prestige, but if they knew that they also had to sacrifice their lives, then the right kind of priest would respond even more eagerly.
Nothing wrong with the Latin Mass. Never was. The postconciliar ban of the Latin Mass was one of the greatest hoaxes in the history of Western civilization.
Valid point. The church survived and emerged stronger having suffered through the dark penal times in England and Ireland. From the blood of martyrs.
She will again.
IHS+
"The problem is when they are basically taught from the pulpit "Extra SSPX Nulla Salus"."
That I've never heard. In fact, I have heard (and with increasing frequency) just the opposite; to wit, the SSPX is Catholic but it is NOT THE Church, rather a tiny subset. More, that the Traditionalist movement isn't the Church, but rather a small subset. The solution, according to homilies by Bp. Williamson and Fr. Fullerton will come from ROME and the Bishops following ROME. We have been warned to avoid the heretical idea that "Extra SSPX Nulla Salus" as well as the heretical ideas of Feeneyism and SedeVacantism.
Since the SSPX hierarchy accept the invalid rite of holy orders of the novus ordo, as long as the novus 'priest' joining them has a beating heart and can occupy or service a chapel for them - they take him, no questions asked, never conditionally re-ordaining him. So even if one needs last rites, a 'SSPX-certified' priet may not always be the answer.
They don't ask questions about other matters either.
Both items were pertinent in one who serviced a SSPX parish of my acquaintance for four years.
His successor railed insanely from the pulpit for driving this 'holy priest' from the chapel.
Turned out he had his problems too.
As for the validity of the orders of the SSPX themselves, descended from Abp. Lefebevre, and hence from Bp. Achille Leinhart, the at that time secret freemason who ordained and consecrated him, the rule of Canon law states that unless one has grounds for positive doubt about the validity of Holy Orders they are to be accepted.
All well and good.
The question as to whether the freemason bishop who ordained and consecrated Abp. Lefebvre witheld consent to the validity of his actions, is a "negative doubt" because one does not have proof, and hence under canon law is to be rejected. It is however possible to withold consent to the validity as does an instructor in the seminary when instructing students as to the form of consecration in the Mass. So it IS possible that Leinhart witheld consent and Abp. Lefebvre's ordination to the priesthood and later consecration as bishop are invalid. The latter even though two co-consecrators assisted, Saint Thomas Aquinas in the Summa teaches that the lower degrees of Holy Orders must be validly obtained before thehigher degrees 'can take'.
Many years later, when Abp. Lefebvre discovered Leinhart's masonic membership, he wrote worriedly to Abp. Thuc asking him what he should do. Abp. Thuc's secretary still has this letter in his possession.
Unfortunately neither Lefebvre nor Thuc wound up doing anything about this.
Since practically ALL of the younger traditional priests and bishops, the future of the Apostolic descent of the Church, even those who broke from the SSPX, (SSPV, Mater Bon Consilliie and also those who went over to the conciliars) descend in Holy Orders in some way from Lefebvre and the SSPX, it is ABSOLUTELY CRTICAL that they have valid orders. Even though they probably already have valid orders - the alternative is HORRENDOUS!
The only traditional i.e. Catholic order that does not descend from this lineage are the CMRI.
Don't count on it. I was betrayed by the Novus Ordo system which is one of the reasons I turned to the SSPX. All organizations have their problems and failures. What is most important is adherence to the Faith.
Your opinion of the SSPX is not binding as the SSPX is not outside the Church. I have posted Cardinal Hoyos most recent statement this year several times on different threads. Beyond that, I don't care to assist you in hijacking this thread into another traditionalist bashing screed.
As to my personal situation, I don't care to discuss it with the likes of you.
That I've never heard. In fact, I have heard (and with increasing frequency) just the opposite; to wit, the SSPX is Catholic but it is NOT THE Church, rather a tiny subset.< More, that the Traditionalist movement isn't the Church, but rather a small subset. The solution, according to homilies by Bp. Williamson and Fr. Fullerton will come from ROME and the Bishops following ROME. We have been warned to avoid the heretical idea that "Extra SSPX Nulla Salus" as well as the heretical ideas of Feeneyism and SedeVacantism.
No offense, but they have it completely backward.
I have heard it, not in the Latin, but in its essence preached from the pulpit by a number, but not all, SSPX priests, that the SSPX IS the Church - the 'faithful part' that is.
The SSPX insists WRONGLY that those who knowingly apostasized from Christ and from the Faith are part of the Catholic Church. THEY ARE NOT in fact were to have no communion with them n the least until they acknoweldge their leaving the Church and beg re-admittance.
Saint Paul to Titus teaches that a heretic is to be avoided after two warnings, when he shows himself obstinant in his heresy - and that is before any type of canonical judgement.
Saint Jerome, Saint Athanasius, Saint Martin of Tours and others who held hast to the Faith would have nothing to do with Arian heretics in the least - they would hardly treat with them as if they still possessed authority and "enter into negotiations with them" - the SSPX's perpetual modus operandi with its masters in 'rome'.
As to any resistance to 'rome', the SSPX pretend that THEY AND THEY ALONE are the 'faithful church', no one else. The whole idea is absurd, if one holds to the Faith then he is Catholic and part of the Church, therefore an 'unfaithful church; is no church at all.
The only time they even acknowledge the existance of an 'independent' is if they covet the priest's property.
As to Fr. Feeney, he rightly called to Rome's attention Cardinal Cushing of Boston's heresies, but Fr. Feeney became a heretic himself when in 1953 he wound up denying Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire which are De Fide part of the Catholic Faith - as one example, Saint Alphonus Liguori quoting the Council of Trent.
As for those who RIGHTLY hold the See of Peter is vacant, that the SSPX repeatedly and desperatelyt label "heretics", besides the fact that the SSPX don't even get the basics of 'first year theology' correct, (they were all too busy being taught the insanity of the day by Williamson), I will gladly post for you later in the week anessay of Abp. Lefebvre from The Angelus from before the Assisi debacle of 1986, stating that after it occurs, HE, Abp. Lefebvre, may have to conclude the See of Peter is vacant. He made at least two such statements before 1983 as quoted by Fr. Noel Barbara.
I am quoting SSPX sources because the teachings of the TRUE Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, i.e. Popes, Doctors, assorted theologians and saints just don't seem to cut it with 'true-believers' of the SSPX. When cornered with Catholic teaching they always 'blank out' and start muttering: "but Arp. Lefebvre was a saint...'
So I'll post writings of Lefebvre and Tissier for starters.
Lefebvre always put the question 'off to the future' as does Bp. Tissier in a 1998 interview, who "leaves the question to theologians of the 21st century". (I'll post that one also.)
WELL WHAT DO WE DO NOW, LEAVE IT TO THE 22ND?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All they are waiting for are some choice plums in Rome and they'll sell out in a second. THE FACT THAT THEY WOULD EVEN CONSIDER NEGOTIATIONS WITH APOSTATES PROVES THAT!!!!!!
By the way, a few years ago Fr. Peter Scott tried to get my ailing elderly pastor, whose former parish they had previously stolen, who just so happens to hold that the See of Rome is Impeded, to join up with them - so they could steal his present one. The 'principles' of the SSPX extend only to bank balances, property and power.
And if I am not mistaken, Fr. Wickens was sympathetic to Fr. Feeney - and of course the SSPX was falling all over him.
As for Williamson, he will never state that the See of Peter is vacant due to heresy - that is CATHOLIC TEACHING.
In pastoral letters from the late 1990's Williamson stated as much that he is waiting for the next conclave to somehow declare it invalid.
Hmmm, just can't wait for the the declaration from Williamson in Argentina that the Masons managed to engineer a secret eclipse of the Planet Neptune, along with Solange Hertz of the Remnant informing him that one of the electors at the conclave had a three-legged dwarf as a valet, both known factors to the SSPX cognoscenti as invalidating the papal election.
Who knows, Stephen Hand may actually find where he left his previous 'brain' and provide Williamson with other 'critical catholic teaching' on the issue.
Correct. The true Faith of Christ is found solely in the true Church, of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church.
That is why Karol Woltyla and all of his 'cardinals', 'bishops' and 'priests' and all who hold the false 'faith of vatican ii' are in no way part of it.
They belong solely to their 'master' below.
A couple of points should be mentioned.
Firstly, Fr. Wickens was originally a diocesan priest, who was evicted from his parish for vocaling objecting to Catholic Schools teaching sex education. He found greater merit in celebrating the Tridentine Mass and went on to found our Chapel, St. Anthony of Padua, as it stands today, an Independent Chapel.
It was my understanding months ago, even before Fr. Wickens became sick that the Chapel was supposed to be willed to the SSPX. Fr.'s choice. Now, I am not on any board of business at the Chapel, but as a regular parishoner, I have come to know a lot of things from people who were privied to Chapel business.
It wasn't announced from the pulpit, but I am sure that the Chapel staff had prior knowledge of his wishes. Perhaps Father knew that it would be difficult to get another independent priest to manage the Chapel, and he had a special place for the SSPX. This is only speculation on my part. Father was always a man with good sense and sound ideas, so I think he thought this through very carefully before making this decision.
It's not true that we were "compensated" by little gifts here and there. As ELS stated, Fr. Wickens regularly gave out books, rosaries, chaplets, scapulars, etc. to the congregation, not as "consolation prizes", but as sacramentals and tools to enhance our understanding of the Faith.
As I stated in another thread, the N.O. didn't cease to harrass Fr. Wickens even on his deathbed, asking him to recant his beliefs on the Traditional form of Mass and beliefs. It is heroes like this who exemplify what it means to Defend the Faith and its principals, and other priests who have had the courage to withstand the persecution they know they face.
If a Traditional Priest won't 'play ball' then they are cast out. And these Novus Ordo bishops are supposed to be examples of Catholicity? Sounds hypocritical, sort of like Caiphas and the other high priests.
Sinkspur, Traditional priests are not "renegade" as you call them. They are trying to preserve the Mass as it has been for hundreds of years, before the reforms of Vatican II. The Novus Ordo Mass is the "non-normative" mass.
Pax,
MMJ
The Novus Ordo is the Normative Mass, by decree of Paul VI, in 1970. Now, if you don't accept Paul VI as a legitimate Pope, then I can see how you don't accept his decree.
And, priests who leave the jurisdiction of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church are, indeed, renegades, no matter what their purpose.
The Tridentine Mass is celebrated in many dioceses, under the Indult.
But, again, if you and the priests you follow don't accept the jurisdiction of a bishop, then I can see how you don't accept this.
Amen.
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