Pope Offers Communion to Pro-Choice Politician in Italy

Google cache of MSN ^ | Tuesday, July 27 | 1:04 p.m. ET | Melinda Henneberger:

[narses]

Melinda Henneberger: At an Environment 2004 party on Beacon Hill Monday evening I ran into Francesco Rutelli, the popular former mayor of Rome, and asked him about rumors that he, a pro-choice Catholic of the Italian left, had nonetheless received communion from Pope John Paul II himself.

"Oh yes, this is true,'' he said, and asked to be walked though the controversy in the American Catholic Church, where some bishops have suggested that pro-choice politicians like John Kerry should be denied communion. "This is very strange for me,'' Rutelli said, "that you cannot be a Christian and also uphold the law of your country.''

"So, this is politics, too?'' he asked of the bishops, wryly suggesting that perhaps these American prelates were too far from Rome—and too close to Washington.

[narses]

Ping.

[sinkspur]

Mayors don't influence public policy.

[narses]

Really? How many sodomite faux weddings happened because of Mayors? How many sodomite "partner benefits" get extended? How many abortions and contraceptives get paid for because of Mayoral politics?

[sinkspur]

Very few.

[narses]

How many would make you believe they are significant? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? How many ABORTIONS does it take to KILL Deacon? (Hint - ONE is the right answer.)

[narses]

PS Deacon, this particular Mayor was running for Prime Minister. Does THAT change whatever exculpatory view you seem to be promoting?

[sinkspur]

Mayors don't influence abortions in any country that I know of.

[ultima ratio]

Joke: Is the Pope Catholic?
No Joke Answer: Not really.

[cpforlife.org]

Actions speak louder than words, or encyclicals.

[sinkspur]

Ask the Pope.

[narses]

San Francisco PAYS for abortions for municipal employees thanks to liberal politicians. But the FACT is that the abortion supporting MAYOR in the story was running for PRIME MINISTER. Get it Deacon, the BOSS, Prime Ministers DO influence national politics, yes?

[sinkspur]

Ask the Pope.

[narses]

Sadly true.

[narses]

I asked you, CAT got your tongue?

[sinkspur]

Ask the Pope. This thread is about the Pope, is it not?

[narses]

His Holiness doesn't post here, you do. You claim to be an ordained Roman Catholic Clergyman. I asked YOU. Why can't you answer?

[sinkspur]

His Holiness doesn't post here,

That's a shame. I'll guess you'll never get your answer.

[narses]

Really? So even though I asked you (and you post here), I won't get my answer? Why? As an ordained clergyman in the Church His Holiness leads, why do you refuse civil questions? You are an ordained minister in the Roman Catholic Church, yes? You can answer simple questions, yes?

[sinkspur]

I can answer questions for myself. I cannot answer questions for the Pope, and this thread is about the Pope giving the Eucharist to a Mayor.

[narses]

But my question regarded your statements here, such as "Mayors don't influence public policy", not HH. You ignored my response to your answer regarding mayors and policy. (To refresh your memory, you claimed mayors have little or no influence, I pointed out this one WAS RUNNING FOR PRIME MINISTER and I asked if that changed YOUR opinion.)

Now that your memory has been refreshed, care to hazard an answer?

[sinkspur]

An answer to what?

[narses]

Poor deacon. Try an answer to post 12.

[narses]

Post 7 is another, prior question you might try and answer.

[sinkspur]

Mayors don't influence public policy. I don't know if Prime Ministers in Italy do, or not. Seems they change every 90 days.

Anyway, I'd never turn anybody down for the Eucharist without talking to them first, and I don't speak Italian.

[narses]

LOL, too funny. Neither Mayors nor Prime Ministers matter. Do US Senators matter Deacon?

[saradippity]

Did either of you read the doggie-do written by a blogger,who appears to support Kerry,who purportedly ran into the former mayor of Rome,who sounds like a nincumpoop,who the blogger said, claims to have received communion from the Pope?

You know the story,stored in a Google cache,picked up by the Boston Globe and conveyed via MSNBC on a snapshot page,now tell the truth,did either of you read it?

[narses]

Sure, did you? If it is a lie, let it be refuted. Our resident internet anonymous deacon accepted it at face value. He is an ordained clergyman. Why should you or I not accept it?

[narses]

Here is more:

Pope Offers Communion to Pro-Choice Politician in Italy

http://www.bruner.net/blog/archives/012600.shtml

"I'm listening to NPR's Fresh Air this evening, with the guest John Allen, Vatican correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter. Terry Gross asked him about the whole question of American Catholic bishops prohibiting pro-choice politicians (read John Kerry) from receiving communion. Allen notes something that the Pope doesn't seem to have a problem giving communion to pro-choice politicians, which he reported on earlier in this article:

In January 2001, Rome's outgoing mayor, Francesco Rutelli, was the candidate of Italy's center-left "Olive Tree" coalition to be the country's next Prime Minister. (Rutelli went on to lose to Silvio Berlusconi). Rutelli's political background was in the Radical Party, which had led the battle for legalized abortion in Italy. As he moved into the mainstream, Rutelli took the classic position of left-leaning Catholics in public life: personally opposed to abortion, but not willing to impose his stance through law.

On Jan. 6, Rutelli and his wife Barbara, who are regular Mass-goers, attended the final act of the Catholic Church's Jubilee Year: the closing of the Holy Door at St. Peter's Basilica. Despite what in the United States would be termed his "pro-choice" stance, Rutelli came forward for Communion and received it from Pope John Paul II himself.

[narses]

Also of note: In January 2001, Rome’s outgoing mayor, Francesco Rutelli, who had said he was personally opposed to abortion but would not impose his belief through law, received Communion from Pope John Paul II.

http://www.americancatholic.org/messenger/Aug2004/Editorial.asp

[ELS]

To those whom God has given much He expects much in return.

[narses]

Demonstrating how divided the Church is on this issue (denying communion), in response to an article on the Cathoic World News web site, a writer asked: "On Jan. 6, 2001, at the concluding mass of the jubilee, John Paul II personally gave communion to Francesco Rutelli, who is one of the most active supporters of abortion in Italy. Does not the Pope lead by example and are not the bishops obligated to follow?"

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/abortion/a/08052004.htm

[AskStPhilomena]

Didn't the pope also personally hand out Holy Communion to the pro-abortion protestant prime minister Tony Blair?
Here are some disturbing reports:
http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word010204.htm
"The year opened with a story that seemed to hint at progress, as well as the pope’s personal generosity. On Feb. 23, Prime Minister Tony Blair of England, along with his wife Cherie, attended Mass in John Paul’s private apartment. Reports afterwards were muddled, but it now seems clear that Blair did indeed receive communion from John Paul. While this was a sign of respect for Blair, it also suggests an ecumenical sensitivity from John Paul towards Anglicanism."
http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/sv/perspective332.asp
http://www.cantemusdomino.net/blog/archives/000292.php
Does the British prime minister have any influence on public policy?

[nickcarraway]

Have you ever heard of the United States? Mayor Bloomberg had a HUGE impact on abortion. When Michael Bloomberg became mayor of NYC he made it mandatory that New York medical schools require students to take abortion, which had previously been an electibe. This was very important because most abortionists are older, and enough younger doctors were not learning abortion. The abortion industry was starting to hurt from lack of doctors. 1 in every 7 doctors in the U.S. goes to medical school in New York, and those medical schools are influential. After New York started requiring abortion California and other places followed suit. This was an absolute necessity for the abortion business, which was running out of doctors. So mayors are important.

[nickcarraway]

Mayors don't influence public policy.

When it comes to abortion, neither do presidents.

[nickcarraway]

San Francisco PAYS for abortions for municipal employees thanks to liberal politicians.

You aren't getting the full story. In the state of California, any abortion will be paid for by the state, no matter how much money the woman has. Bill gates wife could go in tomorrow, and the state of California would pay for her abortion.

[Dominick]

Pope doesn't seem to have a problem giving communion to pro-choice politicians, which he reported on earlier in this article:

I know the guidelines as they read are that Pro-abortion (which is the essence of Pro-choice) people are not to take Communion, having been in a state of serious Sin. Procuring an abortion is excommunicatable, advocating abortions is possibly a mortal sin (serious matter, full knowledge, act of will).

I know that a pastor is to counsel the Communicant if they are a notorious sinner, and then if they present themselves refuse them. Nobody, not even the Pope checks IDs. Assuming that the Pope is at the head of a line, he may or may not have recognized the persons in line, and even if he did, you don't know what goes on between them before Mass.

I agree, Catholicism and the Pro-abortion position are fundamentally incompatible. When you flip to the Abortion advocacy camp, you imperil your soul. It listed by the Holy Mother Church in the category of the Sins that cry to Heaven for vengeance.

Those are:
1) Murder of the innocent (Abortion)
2) Oppression of the poor
3) Deprivation of wages
4) Buggery (Homosexual Rape)

Clearly, the Priest doesn't check all four categories, we could only assume that if he knew of someone in any of these groups, a responsible Pastor would act. A skilled Pastor (what a blessing that is!) would never have to refuse Communion, because the confrontation would have been made in private in his office, and he could have repeated the admonition to not receive in the sacristy if the person presented himself.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Mayors don't influence abortions in any country that I know of.

Sure they do, along with District Attorneys and local Judges. They are the primary problem in fact. Mayors appoint Police Chiefs, who have the power to order the arrest of abortionists for murder. Mayors also control Departments of License and Inspections which have the power to shut down the Abortuary charnel houses. District Attorneys have the power to prosecute them and Judges should be tossing them in jail or sending them to see Old Sparky.

The dereliction of duty by these officials in the face of Roe vs. Wade is the primary reason we have widespread abortion.

The Supreme Court has zero power to enforce its unjust decisions. It has no police and no power of the purse. We suffer abortions because we elect moral cowards and heretics where we should be electing MEN.

That Pope John Paul II gives communion to heretics who support legal abortion is a moral shame and disgrace. He of all people should know better, since it was he who removed all debate on the topic by solemnly dogmatizing the moral teaching against abortion in Evangelium Vitae.

[Maeve]

Mayors don't influence abortions in any country that I know of.

Now that statement is either (a) untrue, (b) obfuscation, (c) a manifestation of invicible ignorance, or (d) what I shall now dub a sinkspurism.

I admit there are other possibilities, but none of them include "truth" as a category.

[horatio]

Just curious, homosexual rape is that much more serious than a man raping a woman?

Regular rape doesn't "cry to Heaven for vengeance" but homosexual rape does?

[sinkspur]

Thanks for the ad hominems. It's what I've come to expect here from the oh-so-Catholics.

Tell me how Italian mayors influence abortion. Please be exact and specific, with examples and links.

[Dominick]

Just curious, homosexual rape is that much more serious than a man raping a woman?

Regular rape doesn't "cry to Heaven for vengeance" but homosexual rape does?

The term I see when I see those listed is buggery. Buggery is historically forced anal sex, and it assumes the rapist is male. Regular rape is a mortal sin, obviously, and indeed it would be a sin demanding vengeance by the Most High, as are all sins are demanding of divine justice. I would agree with you, buggery and rape can possibly kill the soul of the victim.

Those four crimes are listed as the most depraved crimes of indifference to another man that men (and women) can commit. I think they are emphasized as an admonishment, and I find it interesting that crimes against the poor and the working man are prevalent, as you recall, depriving a man of wages often meant family members starved to death.

This is a traditional listing of the four crimes, and doesn't mean other sins don't also cry out for vengeance. I would think that genocide fits in there, as does slavery and prostitution.

[johnb2004]

Ask God. The bible specifically mentions homosexual conduct as crying out to heaven for justice.

[GirlShortstop]

...since it was he [JPII] who removed all debate on the topic by solemnly dogmatizing the moral teaching against abortion in Evangelium Vitae.

You are absolutely right H-t-C.  It is astonishing at how easily this thread, filled with opinion from good Catholics could feed the ammo of the Enemy.

Stop and think:  Do mistakes, accidents not happen anymore?  Who has posted [from the "fact filled" comprehensive article] what JPII's reaction is to this incident?  Is the communion line for the Pope's distribution somehow monitored so that the recipient's state of grace is guaranteed?  Did the Italian man meet with his bishop to clear up his pro-death choice position so that he could worthily receive Communion?  Do you believe that John Paul II did this purposely?

Lastly, lest a lurker think this thread's content expresses otherwise:  it is NEVER appropriate to use the Most Holy Eucharist as some sort of "gotchya tool" to further an opinion/agenda on a matter.  NEVER!!!!
FReegards.

[johnb2004]

What difference does that make? If an elected official publicly endorses abortion that should be enough evidence to forbid them holy Communion.

Whether they have the authority to legislate it should not be the only issue. Leading others astray is a grave offense.

[Dominick]

Lastly, lest a lurker think this thread's content expresses otherwise: it is NEVER appropriate to use the Most Holy Eucharist as some sort of "gotchya tool" to further an opinion/agenda on a matter. NEVER!!!! FReegards.

DING! Absolutely correct!

Some folks will use anything to show that the Pope is somehow apostate, and that any disobedience is justified.

Shall I send you flowers, or some new baseballs?

[Maeve]

You can call it whatever you like. As far as your demands, forget it. I don't respond to demands. Go learn Italian and find the answers for yourself.

[ex-snook]

"Joke: Is the Pope Catholic? No Joke Answer: Not really. "

Not according to Republicans in America. The party that has never nominated a Catholic is holier than the Pope. I'll believe the GOP is really pro-life when they nominate a pro-life Catholic for President. Any chance?

[sinkspur]

As far as your demands, forget it. I don't respond to demands.

You can't. That doesn't surprise me.

Be careful who you call "ignorant" around here, dearie.

[Maeve]

It's what I've come to expect here from the oh-so-Catholics.

And shall I write what I expect of you? You may not remember me, but I am of that family that knows you well, the family of history-matters. I remember everything.