Posted on 09/17/2004 8:36:25 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
I agree that Fr. Hawkins should have followed the diocesan policy, which is (from my understanding) that if a priest is at a parish for more than two months the chancery must be notified and approve of the situation.
On the other hand, Hawkins did fulfill the requirements of the CIC for allowing a priest to celebrate Mass: "A priest is to be permitted to celebrate the Eucharist, even if he is not known to the rector of the church, provided either that he presents commendatory letters, not more than a year old, from his own Ordinary or Superior, or that it can be prudently judged that he is not debarred from celebrating" (§903). These requirements prevent the situation you suggest of an abuser sneaking around parishes and doing harm.
Dear gbcdoj,
No, I disagree. Fr. Hawkins permitted much more than the saying of Mass by Fr. Clay. From what I understand, Fr. Clay heard confessions (are they even valid??), and was involved with the general ministry of the parish.
The bishop is ultimately responsible for his see. Fr. Hawkins robbed his bishop, to whom he has sworn obedience, of the ability to oversee his own diocese.
Very gravely bad judgment. If my priest did that, I'd quit the parish in a heartbeat. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened in some cases in Fr. Hawkins' parish.
sitetest
"Even Bishop Chaput, another Bishop in Colorado, Bishop Bruskiewitz (sp?) and one in Northern VA (Richmond?) are overflowing with ordinations."
The diocese in Northern VA that continues to increase in vocations yearly is the Diocese of Arlington. The Diocese of Richmond is the one with the horrific mess the new bishop, DiLorenzo, is in the process of doing a major revamp and clean-up.
Sinkspur.
Married priests equals divorced priests.
Get over it. It's not going to happen. You're never going to be a priest.
Catholics don't give enough to send your children to Notre Dame (why they would need to go there anyway, is beyond me).
Nope. The funny thing is that the FSSP, ICKSP and the orthodox dioceses are having no problem with recruiting new vocations. Was it really plan of Vatican II to destroy the priesthood as this guy seems to be saying?
As I've told you numerous times, I don't want to be. I became a deacon so I could preach. I'm happy with that; I don't want to be subject to being moved around. I also appreciate being a cog in a wheel, not the one who turns the wheel.
Catholics don't give enough to send your children to Notre Dame
My two boys are police officers in the DFW area.
We shall see about married Latin Rite priests. You do know that it is the only Rite without married priests, don't you?
Divorced priests? You don't think that's that big of a deal, do you?
Divorced priests are no worse than the estimated 30% of priests who do not honor their vows of celibacy.
It would be really interesting to see where you got your moral theology education from. Of course, even if the 30 percent figure were accurate (there is no way to verify this), divorced priests would cause scandal publicly, whereas those who violate their chastity vows are not doing it publicly.
Do you understand the scandal divorced priests would cause? And I guarantee you there will be more divorced priests than the average population.
There's no point in arguing this. You have no idea how many divorces married priests may or may not have. I can tell you, there are very, very few divorces among permanent deacons.
In fact, if you want to lessen the number of divorces, don't ordain any married man under 40 to the priesthood.
Either the Church will allow married priests, or it won't.
It is interesting to argue both sides, however, which is what we're doing here. But, ultimately, the decision is out of our hands.
You got this somewhere. Why not link to it, and let me read the information for myself.
I've never seen this before, and it seems highly suspect.
(Father Rob Schultz, who was ordained last year, is a priest at Saint Joseph Parish in Wilmette, Illinois. The following article was originally presented in his Parish's weekly bulletin.)
FATHERHOOD
by Fr. Rob Schultz
Earlier this week I was speaking with a good friend of mine by telephone. I had baptized his second child last year (it was my first baptism as a priest). Unfortunately, I have not seen him and his family since that time, so I called him to arrange a long overdue get-together. As we looked at both of our schedules, mine was the one that was clearly presenting the most obstacles. When we finally settled on a date in July, my friend immediately shared this insight: “You know, Rob,” he said, “this is the thing nobody thinks about. Look at your calendar. This is why priests should not get married.” I let that sink in for a moment and then I responded, “You’re absolutely right.”
As part of the continual media coverage today, married priesthood is being upheld as the miracle cure for the Church’s ills. Some nightly newscasts have devoted in-depth stories to men who have left the priesthood to get married. I think that when the media does this it is painting these men as heroes who have escaped an oppressive Church system. They are presented as examples of how wonderfully Matrimony and Holy Orders could be combined.
Quite honestly, I find that to be insulting to all of the active priests who have given and continue to give their very lives to the people they love. On his ordination day a priest promises to love and serve the people of God - the Church - from now until death does them part. I know that I took very seriously the promise of celibacy I made at my diaconate ordination on October 28, 2000. Bishop Goedert addressed our class in these words: “In the presence of God and the Church, are you resolved, as a sign of your interior dedication to Christ, to remain celibate for the sake of the kingdom and in lifelong service to God and mankind?” Our unanimous answer: “I am.” The Bishop’s response: “May the Lord help you persevere in this commitment.” Our response: “Amen.”
I knew that celibacy would be a significant and difficult commitment, but I also knew that by God’s grace the words “I am” would pass my lips. I exhaled deeply as I spoke those words because I knew my life had just changed forever - and that’s not a bad thing! This is why, perhaps, I feel personally insulted when I hear talk that celibacy is unnecessary or outdated. That basically takes my promise and throws it out the window. Those whom I really feel for are the dedicated priests who have given 30, 40 and 50 years of service through celibate love. Is our society saying that their lives have been wasted or inefficient?
Just as the spousal love of a married couple reflects Christ’s love for the Church, so too does the celibate love of a priest, nun, brother, or any other committed celibate. A priest, representing Christ the Bridegroom, is fully committed to his Bride, the Church. Susan Mathews, professor of theology at the University of Scranton, describes it in this way: “The image of spousal love now more than ever specifically puts the covenant between God and His people in terms of divine bridegroom and human spouse, so that the ‘great mystery’ is ‘the fullest expression of the truth about Christ the Redeemer’s love, according to the analogy of spousal love in marriage.’”
What I am trying to say, then, is that before we rip celibacy away from priesthood we need to seriously reflect on the implications. Can a priest faithfully give his love away to two spouses: his wife and the Church? Should we still expect a priest to be fully dedicated to his parish family if he also has his own family? Going back to my opening example, I honestly cannot see how I could add to my daily schedule the obligations of being a husband and father - and I do not even have the fuller schedule of a pastor! Maybe we need to pause and reflect on things like the divorce rate among married Protestant clergy, which is higher than the national average. Maybe we should think about scenarios like: what if a married priest is planning to attend his son’s pre-school graduation, but at the last minute a parishioner calls him to anoint her dying mother? Who takes priority?
As we celebrate Father’s Day this Sunday, let us pray for and uphold all fathers, married and celibate. Whether his family consists of a wife and children or a parish of 1,500 families, a father is called to guide, protect and love his family with all his heart. To all fathers I say: Happy Father’s Day!
http://www.holysepulchre.net/Article_July152002_FrSchultz.htm
Are the numbers for divorced Protestant ministers in there somewhere and I just missed them?
Try this. Word search on google "divorce rate"+"Protestant clergy".
See what you find. I found several studies that showed it was at least as high as the nationwide divorce rate.
Do your own homework and research. I am not your mother. And it doesn't matter what the studies show, as it will not change your mind anyway.
Also, if supposedly 30 percent of all priest break their vows of celibacy, then that means 70 percent keep them, which is a greater percentage than Catholic marriages remaining in tact.
You make a statement about divorced Protestant ministers and can't back it up?
You have the burden of proof when you make a statement. At least, that was the rule when I was debating in high school.
"Even if he were to come back from the dead, they still would not believe."
Although as far as I know there are no reliable statistics of lay divorce by denomination, however, the average clergy ever-divorced rate (24% women and 19% men) is comparable to the total lay "ever-divorced" rate most recently reported by the Census (this comparison was provided us by staff at the Associated Press). Or in other words, generally and in most denominations the clergy divorce rate is the same (not double, not half) the lay divorce rate.
http://rra.hartsem.edu/q&a-archive00.htm
Question – Divorce rates by Denomination
[by a denominational researcher]
Has anyone seen any good, recent data about divorce rates by denomination? Someone submitted this question to our Research web site and I have been unable to find a reference. The person said he read that Baptists had the highest percentage and Lutherans and Catholics the lowest.
Answer 1 – [by an academic researcher]
In our fifteen denominational study, we have both present and "ever-divorced" rates of women and men Protestant clergy. Zikmund, Lummis, and Chang, Clergy Women: An Uphill Calling (Westminster/John Knox. 1998, see chart p. 143).
In doing the analysis of divorce trends -- and "ever divorced" is a much better measure of divorce rate than "currently divorced" because remarriage obscures the true divorce rate -- the Southern Baptist clergy had among the lowest ever-divorced rates (17% of the women, 4% of the men), and the American Baptists (19% women, 13% men) and Evan. Lutheran Church in America (19% women, 9% men) were about tied. The highest clergy divorce rate is found among the Unitarian Universalists (47% women, 44% men) with the other denominations in between.
Although as far as I know there are no reliable statistics of lay divorce by denomination, however, the average clergy ever-divorced rate (24% women and 19% men) is comparable to the total lay "ever-divorced" rate most recently reported by the Census (this comparison was provided us by staff at the Associated Press). Or in other words, generally and in most denominations the clergy divorce rate is the same (not double, not half) the lay divorce rate. In those denominations with married clergy where usually or in many parts of this country, divorce spells the end of the pastor's ministry, such as Southern Baptist, the clergy divorce rate is probably lower than the lay divorce rate.
Answer 2 – [from a denominational researcher]
Percent ever-divorced, of those ever-married, from a 1996 Presbyterian Panel (PCUSA) survey:
members, 18%
elders, 17%
pastors, 20%
specialized clergy, 30%
The Protestant ministers (deacons) are coming...
No worry; they can't break Bread or forgive sins. That's for Catholic priests. The clowns will do baptisms, and whatever Luther, I mean Rome, lets them do.
I'm so glad the French martyrs had their fingers chewed off for these clowns...
Less is more. It's time we all take PERSONAL REPSONSIBILITY.
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